he had control over the situation. she did not seduce him. he was a 54 year old man and she was a 17 year old girl.Originally Posted by Adam Strange
disgusting.
he had control over the situation. she did not seduce him. he was a 54 year old man and she was a 17 year old girl.
disgusting.
hold grown men accountable for their behavior. they're not victims to the sexy wiles of teenagers. jesus Christ.
This reminds me of the infamous Lolita situation – did Lolita seduce Humbert, or did Humbert "seduce" Lolita?
I believe this whole situation is much more complex than it seems at first sight.
Yes, Humbert took advantage of Lolita and essentially abused her, but in the beginning she used to play with his emotions and find selfish delight in his overwhelming attraction towards her.
In the case of the LII sister with the married old man, I doubt he abused her, but I feel like there was a similarly complex interaction going on, where both people got something out of it to differing degrees.
Having said all that, I do agree that the adult man is being at fault here, for the mere fact that young girls lack the maturity to be entirely responsible for their actions.
Lolita was TWELVE. I have zero tolerance for this shit.
Well, personally, I found it to be fairly unhealthy. She, on the other hand, thought it was OK.
And lungs, she is my favorite sister. We love and are perfectly truthful with each other. She told me she seduced him. She even knew why she seduced him.
I know your Fi is strong, but you might consider that you could be wrong about him seducing her. If you have further doubts, I can give you her phone number and you can ask her yourself.
how she sees it is irrelevant to the power dynamics of the situation, and to me. he knew exactly what he was doing.
It was initially (you don't stalk someone you're not strongly interested in...), but at the time I didn't particularly like her and I made it quite obvious a few times.
What a condemning predictionWomen tend to find men more attractive who are also desired by other women, so that is why her interest was slightly greater for a short amount of time when the other girl showed interest in you.
But after all, looks like it is not gonna happen with the two of you, unless you impress her in some way down the line, then she might change her mind. Even then, the whole attraction thing to you is on shaky grounds, and she'd likely break up with you after the max of 2 years in case you actually got together.
I've yet to meet a girl who sulks like that over someone they don't like not talking to them lol, but still what makes you think she will break up with me?
12 yo cant be hold accountable for their actions. I'd like to see you people be ok with your 12 yo daughter having sex with a man in his 50's. If you'd be ok with that, please dont have children. Gross. Thats why there's so much child abuse in this world, because people are ok with gross shit like this.
predictable post :shifty:
humbert is the narrator of the book (i haven't watched most of the film versions) and he is a very unreliable source of information. he saw little girls as intoxicating nymphs luring him into their worlds of forbidden sexuality. little temptresses. in reality he was sick (his own innocence had been perverted? i forget...) and drawn to little girls, and he projected his entire fantasy as coming from *them*. he sees *them* initiating everything, which is utterly absurd.This reminds me of the infamous Lolita situation – did Lolita seduce Humbert, or did Humbert "seduce" Lolita?
it's more comfortable (and arousing) for him to feel lured in almost against his will by his victim. it helps him cope with himself. i mean, if he saw it consistently and clearly for what it was then he'd have to admit things like how he tried to kill lolita's mom; is responsible for the death of lolita's mom; kidnapped lolita (a dependent child), and manipulated/forced her into a sexual relationship with him. humbert spends most of his time fantasizing and dissociating from what he does because the force of self-loathing and guilt his actions would bring him would destroy his psyche. that's why we get his beautiful narration about sea nymphs instead of a more accurate account of the situation. it's also why we can't trust his image of lolita - he does not really see her.
even by the end of the book humbert can't (or can barely) see how he destroyed lolita. he could only clearly focus on how *he* felt that she wanted nothing to do with him ever again. but i think he knows the truth deep down - it's what he is constantly trying to keep from himself. after her rejection of him, he finally loses his tenuous grip on his sanity. the hidden weight of his guilt comes crashing down upon him, and he completely dissociates from himself.
perhaps in her memories someone in lolita's shoes might sometimes see herself at times as having some participation and desire in being held hostage and repeatedly raped. but that is the internal world of shame that victims of sexual abuse live in. it wasn't created because the victim *wanted* it. it was created because someone overpowered them into it (usually someone who won't hold themselves personally accountable, ironically). but the victim holds themselves responsible because most people look at events that happen and question their own role in those events - e.g. (making this up) - "i did enjoy humbert's attention when i twirled in my pretty new dress and when he touched my arm i flirted a little with him. there were a lot of little moments like this. so how can i really say i didn't invite humbert's sexual exploitation of me."
more shameful than that would be the feelings of pleasure or desire... and how one grows accustomed to their situation as time goes on. the mind may fight itself... the emotional/physical aspects of self may respond with twinges of arousal, creating thoughts that one actually *likes* this. this will war with how the victim knows they do not want this, that something terrible is happening to them, that they are afraid and powerless, that they want to fight or run but cannot, that their will has been denied them. it's worse if the victim is dependent on the abuser as a child is on a parent.
(also, sometimes one may come to enjoy being hurt if they are constantly hurt over a period of years and can't free themselves. signals of what is pleasure and what is pain can get distorted. they might even seek out others to exploit them in the same way, as lolita does later in the book.)
the best way to victimize someone, imo, is to make them feel complicit in what one is doing to them so as to obscure from the victim the reality that they don't really have any choice. that way they will be too ashamed to ever tell anyone.
Last edited by marooned; 04-28-2016 at 05:10 PM.
inumbra iyou
Very good analysis.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Duh, don't know where you were serious, but I do like to shake this place from time to time
I agree that @End is probably the most submissive sounding person here, when it comes to explaining what he wants from a woman, because he openly admits it. End is also correct in saying it is the more submissive who often have the power in those dynamics but not going into how I know that. It is not really relevant to share my understanding to understand his position. A victim type is probably more likely to do their "victim" thing more subtly though, to the point many will not even realize what they want except the person they are focused on, irl. Even then some people will not understand because that is not their natural inclination. If you have to tell someone how to pursue you then they are probably not going to get it right.But to be honest, my comment was more aimed at types closer to victimness than LIE, particularly @End who I think we all can agree is the most victim on this forum
It is easier to admit some things here that you would never allow an acquaintances to know, even some things you would not tell your best friend. I relate to the bold part of victim more than the openly submissive and feminine (seeming) one.Careful
- See other people in a caring but maybe arrogant way as if
they are somekind of "parent figure" and everyone else
needs their attention and help
- Interact as if they they are in control but not in aggressive way. This
type always acts in a caring way and expect the partner to accept
this care without rebellion
- Has an openly "patronizing" subtype and a subtype that applies
"care" indirectly
- Hates signs of aggression in themself
- Has "I know what is best for you" attitude
Aggressor
- Sometimes is openly arrogant and aggressive and expects complete
mental submittal from others
- Sometimes has a very victim like look and uses indirect means to
control the partner. In the "heart" is as aggressive and control
oriented as the openly aggressive version. Can turn openly
aggressive if the "victim" refuses to submit to indirect
control.
- Hates signs of weakness in themself
- Has "I am in control" attitude
Victim
- Can project either a submissive or arrogant view of themselves
- The openly submissive version never questions the partners
control but expects the partner to "show the way" in all aspects
of the relationship or interaction
- The arrogant version looks aggressive and always challenges people
but the true meaning of this behaviour is to find an aggressor who
is stronger than the victim themself. This type can never be "tamed"
but the partner has to "apply force" at all times to keep the
arrogant victim under control
- Hates signs of weakness in others
- Has "I want you to control me (if you can)" attitude
Infantile
- Can be openly childlike/dreamer/detached or more formal looking with an "inner child"
- Has lots of needs and can be selfish (like a child) and expects
the partner to totally adapt to this behaviour
- Can be openly needy for loving and care
- On the other hand can be openly rebellious against care and
need a lot of "right kind of" attention
- Doesn't want the partner to directly control but instead set loose
"boundaries" and safe guards within which it is safe to play and have fun
- Hates signs of aggression or indifferency in others
- Has "I want you to be my friend and guardian angel" attitude
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
Submissive does not equal "Victim" Romance Style.
ILIs (and LIEs) being Pseudo-Aggressors are never openly and purely submissive. Especially the males are commonly overly focused on acting like the dominant part (even more so as Te subtype). They seem to feel like losing their "pride" if they are acting too openly submissive or easy to conquer. They can feel pressured to convey some degree of assertiveness. With their Duals, they enjoy this power-play, where at times their Victim vulnerability shines through, but is mostly being hidden by their Pseudo-Aggressorness. Only their intimate partner may know about the true "Victimness" they carry. LIE-Te may hide it for the longest time and not admit it to themselves.
There are even several Childlike types (mostly the Delta ones) who are submissive; also not as openly, but very much so behind the scenes. Many IEE women (and even certain SEE-Fi ones) enjoy playing the part of the "bratty submissive". (Well, and many Alpha SF women are traditionally submissive, esp. SEI.
ESE can be a bit more feisty, similarly to SEE.)
With LIIs, it is a mixed bag. They are commonly rather neutral, or open about their submissiveness, dreaming of not having to "work for it" at once. They do not have any of the Pseudo-Aggressor qualms about possibly appearing "too weak". ILEs are generally not submissive, same for IEE men.
Very generally, more men tend to be dominant and more women tend to be submissive, regardless of type.
When it comes to the "classic" submissive male, most of them are EII or LII or IEI, as far as I know. They share weak Se and high Ni with ILI and to some respect LIE, but because the former are not Pseudo-Aggressors they can slip rather easily into a submissive role and won't (mentally) fight it.
If I had to tell someone how to pursue me then I'd be taking a long, hard look in the mirror and question why I can't pursue what I want instead of hoping and praying someone can be bothered to pursue me.I agree that @End is probably the most submissive sounding person here, when it comes to explaining what he wants from a woman, because he openly admits it. End is also correct in saying it is the more submissive who often have the power in those dynamics but not going into how I know that. It is not really relevant to share my understanding to understand his position. A victim type is probably more likely to do their "victim" thing more subtly though, to the point many will not even realize what they want except the person they are focused on, irl. Even then some people will not understand because that is not their natural inclination. If you have to tell someone how to pursue you then they are probably not going to get it right.
Definitely need to get better best friends then.
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying about pursuing but that's ok. It isn't important.
I see no need to bare my whole soul to someone other than the person I am interested in and even that takes time. I am guarded but still have a secure attachment style once in a relationship.
I think some things are better kept private. I outgrew blabbing about my sex life to friends in my early 20s when I found out that some women (or gay men) will go after what you have if they find it too appealing. I learned who I could trust and who I couldn't in the process. This is probably why most of my friends are men. I also think telling someone too much up front can frighten them. They need the time to get to know you in order to know if something is ok or not. I do tests though and always have, just to see how far someone will go for me or how much they accept me as I am. I have dismissed more guys for being too aggressive including duals. Everyone has their limits as to what is acceptable.
I have some good female friends I do share things with but there is a part of me most people will never know and I like it that way.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
@Resonare, I read what you wrote and thought, that's really strange because ESI's are Aggressors. Maybe he's got some kind of.....and then I realized, ESI's are INTROVERTS. The aggression doesn't make starting a relationship any easier. It only shows up when they feel accepted and safe in a relationship.
Bummer. Because by then, the LIE is usually already invested.
Just joking in the above post.In my experience, I've never regretted meeting an ESI, at any stage of the relationship.
If you are having trouble pursuing what you want, it might be because you are putting yourself on the line, for approval or rejection. I suggest you approach the person who interests you and make the topic of conversation about something else, not about you or them or anything that you want. That way, you can be nonchalant, silly, ironic, ridiculous, anything you want, and will still come off as being 'way more comfortable.
I can approach anyone irl because I don't fear rejection, because at that point, I don't know the person well enough to care about them. Nothing is at stake.
LIE's are looking for someone who is open-minded, reliable, emotionally stable and not needy. Pretty much what ESI's are, in fact. If you can start a convo about some random thing, the LIE will almost certainly pick up the convo and will run with it. And in an hour or so, the LIE will be struck by how great you are. And then you should be good.
Ya nailed it @Aylen, I only wish to serve a "worthy" queen. It's like in video games. If you have a "summoner" class some of the summons are pretty fucking uppity and damn are their standards high. They say they'll serve you faithfully... if you can beat them that is
All flesh is grass, and the comeliness therein as the flower in the field. The grass fadeth, the flower withereth, but the word of our god abideth forever. Her youth will go away, her beauty will fade with time, but who she really *IS* will not change. Do not be blinded by her appearance, trust me she's gonna become ugly once she hits "the wall" as they call it. It's her personality you ought to pay your attention to. I remember something now, I actually managed to shock a girl back in the day. She asked me what I'd do if I had a choice between fucking a hot chick and marrying an average looking one. I told her "I'd marry the average looking one" the instant she finished.
She went wide eyed and actually recoiled from me. I asked her "What? Isn't that the obvious answer?" She then told me that every other male she asked had said they'd fuck the hot one and marry the average one. I further shocked her by saying why the hell would you complicate this shit by fucking the hot chick on the side? I blew her mind, I swear that if she was a robot I'd have seen steam coming out of her ears. I must have broke her internal narrative, and I'm happy I did. A male who takes the long haul into consideration? All men are supposed to be pigs! How can some virgin male be so rational!? Because that's how an NT type rolls honey. Just saying this once more, the MSM lied to you. Introverted men exist, and I bet you'd find them rather attractive if you gave them the time of day...
Last edited by End; 04-29-2016 at 04:55 AM.
It's not strange at all; I am saying that if you want something then go get it, rather than whine about it not coming to you. The thing I really loathe about pseudo-science like socionics is how some people will use it as an excuse. "I'm an INTJ so I'm automatically intelligent" was a common one on mbti forums, or "I'm a victim so I don't need to approach women" even though the majority of women never approach men but instead indicate their openness to being approached
LIEs seem to be the least inclined to use their victim romantic style as an excuse, that's why I said my comment earlier was aimed at the more victimish types.
I only have trouble pursuing the type of person I mentioned before. I'm not going to be rude dick and bother someone who is displaying signs that they do not want to be bothered. If she's playing a game then she can play it on her own, or find someone rude enough to play along with her.Just joking in the above post.
If you are having trouble pursuing what you want, it might be because you are putting yourself on the line, for approval or rejection. I suggest you approach the person who interests you and make the topic of conversation about something else, not about you or them or anything that you want. That way, you can be nonchalant, silly, ironic, ridiculous, anything you want, and will still come off as being 'way more comfortable.
I can approach anyone irl because I don't fear rejection, because at that point, I don't know the person well enough to care about them. Nothing is at stake.
LIE's are looking for someone who is open-minded, reliable, emotionally stable and not needy. Pretty much what ESI's are, in fact. If you can start a convo about some random thing, the LIE will almost certainly pick up the convo and will run with it. And in an hour or so, the LIE will be struck by how great you are. And then you should be good.
Well, @Resonare, you were there and I wasn't, so you would have a better idea about what was going on in her mind, However, I've been thinking about what you wrote about your encounter, and based purely on that, I don't think she was playing a game. At least, not one she was in control of.
I'm LIE, but when I was very young, before I became an LIE, I used to have trouble approaching women whom I found attractive. In 7th grade, I sat across from the most beautiful girl in the world during study hall. She had the ethereal beauty of Starfall and the straight, easy femaleness of kalinoche, and I absolutely could not tell her I liked her. I spent every day feeling like a hopeless idiot. So, I kind of understand how you might have trouble asking for what you want.
Let's assume the woman you described is LIE. I know a couple of female LIE's. They became LIEs by absolutely denying how they personally feel about things, and by protecting the team by being the toughest, most competent person in the room, and then backing it up with rational action.
I also know a couple male ESI-Se's, so let me tell you how they appear to an LIE. The first impression is one of graceful and supremely confident physicality. So much so that they don't even have to call attention to it. It is subdued, but it is there. (Just look at your avatar picture.) They can be clumsy and it looks like they are playing. They can be self-deprecating, and you know it's who they really are, and it is super-appealing. And the LIE also absolutely believes that they have absolutely nothing in common with an ESI.
So, this female LIE sees you on the train, and the circuit breakers in her brain start tripping out. She looks at you and wants you. She is used to getting what she wants, but only through rational means, and since she thinks her attraction is completely physical, her normal approach tactics fail and she is afraid to get into a potentially humiliating relationship that is based only on sex. Still, half her brain is gone at this point, and she's thinking "He's beautiful. How can I....get......"
So, she follows you, hoping to see a way in, hoping for a miracle. You talk to the cashier, showing you are friendly and normal, and she sees that you are completely different from anyone she knows and she's not good at this and she asks herself what the hell she's doing and jams earbuds into her ears.
You take your coffee and go sit down and she goes to another table and is completely flustered and hates herself for such an incompetent display and she can't think and she slams her stuff down on the table and she swears that she will stay within her comfort zone in the future but that guy over there is super special and who needs anyone else? But with nothing in common but her desire, how can she talk to him? She just needs some time to figure this out.
What she is missing is that ESI's and LIE's actually have everything in common. They have the exact same functions, but with inverted strengths, which means they understand and complement each other.
When I first met an ESI-Se irl, I thought we had nothing in common. She was completely different from me, but after sitting and talking with her for a few minutes in a coffee shop, I found that I was really sitting at a family table at home.
The next time you see this woman, if you are still interested in her, just walk over to her table and ask her about her work, or something you noticed about her. She will be instantly comfortable talking to you about her areas of expertise, and if you can spend a few minutes this way, you will find you both becoming more and more comfortable.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-29-2016 at 02:21 PM.
i think this is one of those matters where different people on the forum have different views about this and so there are a lot of different interpretations. frankly, i suppose i think my interpretation is thatsuggestive is "no
i can say what i inwardly suspect (as i did above) but i also end up floating about in all these interpretations and being unsure because of them. note: i'm only thinking about ILI here. i know LIE often fits the pseudo-aggressor role perfectly.
ps. i also think with exposure to
Wow, Adam's comment is an extremely romanticized view of the situation, haha!
As a fellow woman, I don't think you (resonare) have such high chances (nor do I think this woman is LIE).
But hey, good luck.
As a fellow Victim type with suggestivei think this is one of those matters where different people on the forum have different views about this and so there are a lot of different interpretations. frankly, i suppose i think my interpretation is that
i can say what i inwardly suspect (as i did above) but i also end up floating about in all these interpretations and being unsure because of them. note: i'm only thinking about ILI here. i know LIE often fits the pseudo-aggressor role perfectly.
ps. i also think with exposure to
ILI altogether with e8 seems a weird combo to me as any other introverted TIM, except LSI maybe...As a fellow Victim type with suggestive
I think your feelings are the most important thing here. They allowed you to gauge the situation. You seem confident enough to me. You picked up "don't bother me" vibes which probably was a general thing and not just directed toward you. She might have slammed her stuff by accident or she could have been having a bad day and didn't want to be bothered by anyone. Many people can muster a smile for a cashier, and some polite greeting, even if they are having a bad day. There is no way to know, short of asking, what was going on in her head that day.
Anyone could rationalize and think the following quote is what she was thinking that day but it would probably be wrong and it would have been awkward. I think your ability to read the energy is good. It would be more pleasant to have a day out, when I want to be alone, if people could read energy better. I have people tap me on the shoulder when I have headphones in (obviously avoiding eye contact) to ask me a question even though there are other people around to make small talk with.
I have this thing inside me where I can't be rude (to nice people) but I try to end the conversation, politely, as quickly as possible but it is often kind of awkward. I recently got trapped in a really weird conversation with a guy who had some mental health issues because he chose me for some strange reason, in a crowd. I was not even sitting near him. I took my headphones off and just listened, smiled and nodded until I could make my escape. I tend to draw the strange people to me though. Maybe it is the way I dress sometimes. Maybe I have an invisible sign only they can see. If they are not threatening I will talk to them because I feel like they chose me for a reason. I could be clearing some past life karma by giving them a few moments of my time and being kind. hahah I only think that about the weirdos. Normal people usually get the hint, if they didn't by my behavior, after a minute or two.
This is reading too much into her thoughts and motivation. It is conjecture divorced from reality. I am not sure if this comes from the use of Te but AS would probably be pretty good at writing romance novels for men. <3So, this female LIE sees you on the train, and the circuit breakers in her brain start tripping out. She looks at you and wants you. She is used to getting what she wants, but only through rational means, and since she thinks her attraction is completely physical, her normal approach tactics fail and she is afraid to get into a potentially humiliating relationship that is based only on sex. Still, half her brain is gone at this point, and she's thinking "He's beautiful. How can I....get......"
So, she follows you, hoping to see a way in, hoping for a miracle. You talk to the cashier, showing you are friendly and normal, and she sees that you are completely different from anyone she knows and she's not good at this and she asks herself what the hell she's doing and jams earbuds into her ears.
You take your coffee and go sit down and she goes to another table and is completely flustered and hates herself for such an incompetent display and she can't think and she slams her stuff down on the table and she swears that she will stay within her comfort zone in the future but that guy over there is super special and who needs anyone else? But with nothing in common but her desire, how can she talk to him? She just needs some time to figure this out.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
It is true that it is rather "weird", but in my experience ILI and LSI E8s do exist. Granted, they are more on the rare side. And the ILI E8 is almost always the Te subtype (and the LSI would be usually the Se subtype).
Personally, I could not see an ILI-Ni ever being E8 – they are probably a mistyped counter phobic E6 instead. (Same for LSI-Ti, really.)
Maybe, but I have explained it to my friend and his girlfriend and they both think she's either nuts or playing a game and getting frustrated by it.
I don't know how either of them look but I get your point. I don't really have trouble asking her for anything, it's just that the second she put those earphones on I did not like her anymore.
Well, that is certainly a view I didn't consider. This isn't the first time I've been stalked, not by a long shot, but I think it's more because I stand out like a sore thumb than because I'm ridiculously attractive or anything, but I suppose I could be exactly her type.
I'm fairly sure she is ILI but I still get your point; she could just be reacting nervously.
As much as I hate to do it, I probably will just leave this one open. If I see her and an opportunity comes up to just say hello and whatnot then I will, but if not then I'm more than happy to just let this one be.
She could've been having a bad day but in all likelihood it was related to what happened between us. I'm not one to fret over something like this (the only reason I bought this up in the first place was as an example of the type of women I attract for @Adam Strange), but I can see this for what it is; I show I like her and she goes cold but if I show I don't like her or that another person likes me then she goes hot. Either she is scared silly of a possible "us" or she's just playing games/wants my attention.
Asking a woman's advice on a situation (typically a negative one so she can relate strongly and emotionally) is a classic way of getting to know her quickly in order to ask her out
Strange how little things can mean a lot.
Yes, it sounds like she might be ILI. I believe ILI can go hot and cold like this. It might be some kind of Se test. IEI do the same thing, IME. When you're not around, they romanticize you. When you are there, they are disappointed in you for not meeting their ideals. That, of course, is from my perspective. SEE and SLE may experience this differently.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-29-2016 at 07:27 PM.
Personally, I believe the girl is most likely an ESI-Fi.
Whatever her type, she is simply not interested enough, IMO.
Move on.
P.S: ESIs can have a "Pseudo-Victim" attitude (Can have a very victim-like look using indirect methods to control others and turning aggressive when they refuse to submit.), thanks to their Ni HA; especially when the Fi subtype. Similarly to their Dual, they may have this facade of the other Romance Style, but in closer interaction the Aggressor side will come out. "Pseudo-Victimness"... it is essentially playing the role of being a "Victim", but once they have you under their wing, they show their true colors.
An LIE once said this about his Dual wife: "One day I looked at her, and I said You are nothing how you act, you act so quiet... but you are a lioness, you are crazy!"
I don't agree that the woman @Resonare described is an ESI, particularly not an ESI-Fi. In my experience, yes, they can be very demanding of conformance to their personal standards (right or wrong), but they don't run obviously hot-cold-hot-cold, depending on whether you like them or not. They are either quiet and observant, or full-on at you, or gone without a word. I haven't seen much in the way of frequent attitude reversals, but then, my experience with ESI's is limited. I do think IEI's can also be critical, but are also more forgiving.Personally, I believe the girl is most likely an ESI-Fi.
Whatever her type, she is simply not interested enough, IMO.
Move on.
P.S: ESIs can have a "Pseudo-Victim" attitude (Can have a very victim-like look using indirect methods to control others and turning aggressive when they refuse to submit.), thanks to their Ni HA; especially when the Fi subtype. Similarly to their Dual, they may have this facade of the other Romance Style, but in closer interaction the Aggressor side will come out. "Pseudo-Victimness"... it is essentially playing the role of being a "Victim", but once they have you under their wing, they show their true colors.
An LIE once said this about his Dual wife: "One day I looked at her, and I said You are nothing how you act, you act so quiet... but you are a lioness, you are crazy!"
I followed the link that you posted, and I read some of the type descriptions there. Many are very good, and all are informative, but I was struck once again by how each type can be described in an uncharitable and critical-seeming way. I guess that's just the nature of things. I'm sure I'm guilty of that myself.
She has to at least be ILI, otherwise this thread has been derailed
Actually she looks a lot like this LIE-Ni I can literally listen to for hours. She sort of looks like this but the outer corners of her eyes are angled more downwards.
Just in case though, ESI-Fi (Liu Bei) and ILI-Te (Zhuge Liang).
Ha, this girl looks exactly like an ESI I know IRL.
I am not all for V.I, but the similarity is uncanny, haha.
She also looks like the LIE I linked as well...Ha, this girl looks exactly like an ESI I know IRL.
I am not all for V.I, but the similarity is uncanny, haha.
Either way, I didn't expect this to turn into a discussion about mt love life but that's enough about it for now
ILI being Pseudo-Aggressor and SEE being Pseudo-Victim. Yes, I think SEE can be Pseudo-Victim like an ESI.
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
Great example!
I find SEE-Fi can be more "Pseudo-Victim" too (not really SEE-Se), mainly because their Fi subtype "boosts" their Ni.
This "Pseudo-Victim" effect is even stronger when they are 3w4. Type 4 in the Enneagram has many Victim qualities, so anyone with 4 seems more Victim without necessarily being so.
I'd say Misa is SEE-Fi and 3w4, so your assessment of her being "Pseudo-Victim" makes a lot of sense! I can totally see it.
(Light Yagami is ILI-Te... So they are totally Duals, how could I forget about them! It is just sad how their Duality is not anywhere near "real love". That shows how Duality is not everything...
I actually think that it's more likely that Light is LIE and Misa is ESI if we're going to view them as duals, or that Light is LIE and Misa is SEE-Fi, rather than saying Light is ILI. One definite reason Light cannot be ILI, is that if you look on the Death Note Wikia, according to the official Death Note creator's statistics, Light Yagami's skills include "People Skills: 10/10", as well as "Acting Skills: 10/10". There is no way an Fe PoLR type could have such stats, and no way an Fe PoLR type could have pulled off leading all of those people like he did. He must be LIE.
As an addendum, I think this is another reason their relationship may not appear fully like real love, as you said. Because it might not be duality. (or well it could be... I've thought about this anime in depth before and it's possible to create a pretty good argument for Misa being ESI)
Last edited by niffer; 05-16-2016 at 09:22 AM.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
I used to think about it the same way, actually. Probably why I did not mention the two in this thread before. I used to think he was LIE-Ni.
However, people skills are often a trait of SO/SP. Light is SO/SP E1, and I find it possible he is simply a strong Te subtype who has learned to deal with people because of his SO instinct.
At last, one has to keep in mind the Wikipage was created by fans, not the author/mangaka themselves. That means that other people perceive him to be this way, it might not be that accurate.
But sure, I could accept it if he was actually LIE, and Misa SEE (I am pretty certain she is SEE-Fi, I don't see ESI for her at all). At least they illustrate the Pseudo-Victim/Pseudo-Aggressor dynamic pretty well, which is rather often the case in Gamma Duality.
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