View Poll Results: type of Jordan Peterson?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    4 3.15%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    2 1.57%
  • LII (INTj)

    22 17.32%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    9 7.09%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    45 35.43%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    8 6.30%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    1 0.79%
  • ILI (INTp)

    10 7.87%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    21 16.54%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    5 3.94%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    1 0.79%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    1 0.79%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    4 3.15%
  • EII (INFj)

    3 2.36%
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Thread: Jordan Peterson

  1. #761
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    I think IEEs do something similar but its more diffuse and less easily traceable back to their own self interest, primarily because they're not operating on the basis of power which is inherently more concentrated. they're sort of hippies in a more general sense, where instead of trying to focus all the energy like EIE into a lazer its about spreading the love. brokering desire and skimming off the top is sort of something all extroverted ethicals do, SEEs are just the most straightforward and individualized about it... I think IEEs think if they maximize things there will be enough to go around, sort of in keeping with ESE. in a weird way IEE and ESE have a lot in common because ESE takes a similar approach, you can sort of see how ESE might benefit IEE on that basis, and at the same time SEE might look up to EIE for doing what SEE does but generally in a more artful way (donald trump is lowbrow in comparison to steve jobs, despite having gone arguably further)

  2. #762
    Moderator xerx's Avatar
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    God he's such a clown.

    Here are a few excerpts from a 2014 trial where JP was brought in to provide expert testimony [full link]:

    [35] Dr. Peterson’s opinion was that people with an agreeable personality trait like the appellant are susceptible to being manipulated during questioning.

    ...

    [88] The situation here is even more remote. It is difficult to see how Dr. Peterson’s technique of assessing the personality of a person for his private consulting business satisfies the Daubert factors to make it admissible for a forensic purpose. Dr. Peterson provided no evidence that his technique of personality assessment has been properly tested for the purpose it is being used for here, detecting when an agreeable person may falsely confess to the police. All Dr. Peterson could say is he hired university students to try and fake the personality assessment and they couldn’t do it. That is not scientific validation. There has been no peer review of the technique of the Unfakeable Big Five. Dr. Peterson provided no rate of error or accepted deviations. In fact, he claimed, without any proof, that his assessment tool cannot be deceived while other personality assessment techniques can be. Finally, there is no evidence that the Unfakeable Big Five is generally accepted as a forensic tool. It was designed and is used for Dr. Peterson’s private consulting clients to hire employees.
    ^ He tried to show that the accused person had an overly agreeable personality (Big Five agreeableness) and was manipulated under police interrogation into giving a false murder confession.

    Whether or not this was case (if it is, then fuck ), he used his own invention he called the "Unfakeable Big Five" to perform a personality assessment on the accused. His "evidence" RE. its unfakeability is that some university students he hired couldn't game the test. Seriously.


    [90] While not necessary to decide this appeal, I would close discussion of the judge’s ruling on Dr. Peterson’s proposed expert evidence by expressing concern about the decision to attempt to proffer Dr. Peterson as an expert witness on areas that he was clearly not qualified as he had no background whatsoever regarding police interrogations. This decision unnecessarily complicated and delayed this trial and is proof positive of the concern expressed in D.D. (at para. 56) of the detrimental impact on the justice system of attempting to use dubious expert opinion.
    ^ The judge flat out accused Peterson of incompetence.

    I can't tell whether or not this is fair criticism from the judge. Peterson's experience is in the area of something like job interviews, not so much in the area of Police interrogations. But how sufficient is the overlap between the two? I don't know how it is in other countries, but many Canadian universities have dedicated criminology departments where I'd assume that the specifics of police interrogation are studied in more detail. Is a generalist like Peterson really so out of his depth here?

  3. #763
    Moderator xerx's Avatar
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    Given what Peterson has (mis)stated about bill C-16, this guy has no business commenting on the Canadian legal system.


    Here is another case from 2009 [full link]. The bold part is definitely worth reading:

    [19] I will deal next with Dr. Peterson’s report entitled “Multiple rater response to play assessment description From Kawartha Family Court Assessment Service Report”. It is dated May 4, 2009. This is perhaps the most interesting of all of the reports that counsel for the respondent wishes the court to consider. It comes as close to “junk science” as anything that I have ever been asked to consider. Dr. Peterson’s evidence was that he did not consider himself to be an objective observer, if only because he only saw the respondent. Therefore, he took excerpts from the Kawartha Family Court Assessment Service Report dealing with the observations of the play sessions with the children and each parent. He then designed a questionnaire to explore the actions of the parents therein. He then sent all that to what he describes as “22 colleagues, psychologists, social and child care workers”. We know nothing of their experience. Five persons responded to his questionnaire. The following is Dr. Peterson’s description of those five:

    Three of these were psychologists. Two were developmental clinical psychologists. One was a former professor who had done gestalt therapy. One was a child welfare worker with a degree in social work. Once was a private neuropsychological rehabilitator with a bachelor’s degree in psychology and extensive experience dealing with children with severe behavioural difficulties.

    [20] Even if Dr. Peterson testified as to why he choose those 22 people or what he understood to be the qualifications of those who responded, we would have no first-hand knowledge of any qualification that any of them might have to give evidence regarding custody and access assessments, or as to observations of the parties during the play sessions which would factor into such an assessment. It is astonishing in my opinion that Dr. Peterson would feel that this was good science.

    [21] The final nail in the coffin on this issue is that Dr. Peterson himself agreed with counsel for the applicant that if the observations of the first play session with the applicant and the children were affected by the fact that one of the children had slept poorly the night before, to only use that one play session in any comparison would be “apples and oranges”.

  4. #764

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    God he's such a clown.

    Here are a few excerpts from a 2014 trial where JP was brought in to provide expert testimony [full link]:



    ^ He tried to show that the accused person had an overly agreeable personality (Big Five agreeableness) and was manipulated under police interrogation into giving a false murder confession.

    Whether or not this was case (if it is, then fuck ), he used his own invention he called the "Unfakeable Big Five" to perform a personality assessment on the accused. His "evidence" RE. its unfakeability is that some university students he hired couldn't game the test. Seriously.




    ^ The judge flat out accused Peterson of incompetence.

    I can't tell whether or not this is fair criticism from the judge. Peterson's experience is in the area of something like job interviews, not so much in the area of Police interrogations. But how sufficient is the overlap between the two? I don't know how it is in other countries, but many Canadian universities have dedicated criminology departments where I'd assume that the specifics of police interrogation are studied in more detail. Is a generalist like Peterson really so out of his depth here?
    Its funny cause Peterson gets remembered and none of these people do. Haha Peterson, even in this youtube 8 min clip circuit has done more for his profession and probably the entire endeavouring society then any of these guys have so its a real laugh. Nobody cares about all the nit picky details anyway at the end of the day.

  5. #765
    &papu silke's Avatar
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    found this short presentation on his views



    You may not realize it, but you are currently funding some dangerous people.

    They are indoctrinating young minds throughout the West with their resentment-ridden ideology. They have made it their life's mission to undermine Western civilization itself, which they regard as corrupt, oppressive and “patriarchal.”

    If you're a taxpayer—or paying for your kid's liberal arts degree—you're underwriting this gang of nihilists.

    You're supporting ideologues who claim that all truth is subjective; that all sex differences are socially constructed; and that Western imperialism is the sole source of all Third World problems. They are the post-modernists, pushing “progressive” activism at a college near you.

    They produce the mobs that violently shut down campus speakers; the language police who enshrine into law use of fabricated gender pronouns; and the deans whose livelihoods depend on madly rooting out discrimination where little or none exists.

    Their thinking took hold in Western universities in the ‘60s and ‘70s, when the true believers of the radical left became the professors of today. And now we rack up education-related debt—not so that our children learn to think critically, write clearly, or speak properly, but so they can model their mentors' destructive agenda.

    It's now possible to complete an English degree and never encounter Shakespeare—one of those dead white males whose works underlie our “society of oppression.”

    To understand and oppose the post-modernists, the ideas by which they orient themselves must be clearly identified.

    First is their new unholy trinity of diversity, equity and inclusion. Diversity is defined not by opinion, but by race, ethnicity or sexual identity; equity is no longer the laudable goal of equality of opportunity, but the insistence on equality of outcome; and inclusion is the use of identity-based quotas to attain this misconceived state of equity.

    All the classic rights of the West are to be considered secondary to these new values. Take, for example, freedom of speech—the very pillar of democracy. The post-modernists refuse to believe that people of good will can exchange ideas and reach consensus.

    Their world is instead a Hobbesian nightmare of identity groups warring for power. They don't see ideas that run contrary to their ideology as simply incorrect. They see them as integral to the oppressive system they wish to supplant, and consider it a moral obligation to stifle and constrain their expression.

  6. #766

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    This message is the least interesting of his.

  7. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterson
    It's now possible to complete an English degree and never encounter Shakespeare—one of those dead white males whose works underlie our “society of oppression.”
    This kind of stuff is why Peterson is so full of shit. Shakespeare is an author that English students are heavily exposed to. There's virtually no threat of European culture being lost, and Peterson is being his usual paranoid and uninformed self.


    This is because English students apparently prefer to study Shakespeare:

    “There are few English majors that don’t take at least two Shakespeare courses at Yale,” Hammer said, “and sometimes more.”

    Hammer said faculty have at times wondered if their students are focused too much on Shakespeare. “I don’t think you want to fetishize Shakespeare, or anyone else,” he said.

    Major universities trip over themselves to offer Shakespeare-related courses because his influence is so pervasive:

    Hammer said English is “one of the most rigorous majors at Yale.” Students in the field must take two semesters focused on major English poets, he said, and there are requirements for historical breadth, one of which is often satisfied by taking a Shakespeare class. Yale offers many Shakespeare courses, including surveys in the major tragedies and comedies and romances.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ypass-the-bard

    Peterson is correct that many universities don't have a Shakespeare requirement per se (with some exceptions like Harvard). This is actually a GOOD thing. Students go to university to learn to become independent adults. Being an adult means learning to make correct decisions on your own. The (tiny) risk that students can end up saddling themselves with an irrelevant education is what it means to make your own decisions.


    Why Peterson misunderstands this is puzzling. He never normally shuts up about learning to take personal responsibility.
    Last edited by xerx; 07-09-2018 at 07:02 AM.

  8. #768
    c esi-se 6w7 spsx ashlesha's Avatar
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    I just learned this term today!
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

  9. #769
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    oh man Sam Harris is the worst at that, he loves to get people to agree to something innocuous sounding up front, because it seems like he's using it in an unobjectionable common place limited context (usually in a quick and agreeable tone), and it ends up committing people to a conclusion based on an unforeseen technical definition having supplanted the original meaning about halfway through the discussion. usually best way to counter this is to just notice it and hash that point out directly, but most people either don't notice or are too prideful to admit they missed it, so they end up getting "boxed in" by the irrefutable logic, because it wasn't really the logic that was the problem (so arguing the formal logic can't really help), it was the shift in meaning of the premises.. this is a great way to manipulate someone who argues mainly through logic but who is vulnerable to being manipulated on the level of perception, but its really disingenuous

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  11. #771

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    oh my fucking god man thank you for the laughs. this makes me love this man even more.

  12. #772
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  13. #773
    &papu silke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by falsehope View Post
    The Ne is just too apparent.

  14. #774
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    I think I'd barely pass Peterson's Tier 0 (Clean your room) if I really did everything I wanted to do to it. If I kept up with that everyday, I'd just want to sit down and do nothing for the rest of it. Coincidentally, I'm not a great person to have at funerals.

  15. #775
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    I see Beta and I see Ti.

    LSI


  16. #776
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    IDR Labs (Who Michael Pierce contributes to) types him as INFJ (in MBTI) , and Peterson himself identifies as an ENFJ (in accordance with Big Five traits). He's definitely Beta at the very least.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."


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  17. #777
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    Lmao the top poll results are LII and EIE. Dat discrepancy doe

    fucking wew lads
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."


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  18. #778
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    its not that odd, since gulenko says LII naturally shifts to EIE as they age, and vice versa. the semi-dual blur he says is baseline across the socion as people develop

  19. #779
    Luminous Lynx Memento Mori's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    its not that odd, since gulenko says LII naturally shifts to EIE as they age, and vice versa. the semi-dual blur he says is baseline across the socion as people develop

    Wait.... wut. People "shift"!? People change type? Or is it more simply that as they mature and become more well-rounded they can ostensibly appear to take interest in, and perhaps reflect certain expected patterns of other types? Gonna have to agree hard with IDR Labs on this one - I've never met a human being proven to have changed their type.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."


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  20. #780
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    well yeah because type itself can't be proven, but the idea is as you get older your suggestive is really what develops your base so you start to look more like your semi dual no matter who you are. to sort this out compare young peterson to old peterson, it looks more like LII-> EIE, but it could be the reverse, either way I think 16 types has actually exhibited a kind of wisdom of crowds on this one

  21. #781
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  22. #782
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    Regardless of what some people here think of him, Peterson is an intelligent man with an educated background in psychology. He himself says that his specific Big Five results correlate with the ENFJ personality type, which he personally identifies himself as. Even a simple look at his background sounds pretty clearly EIE - "Jordan Bernt Peterson (born June 12, 1962) is a Canadian clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at the University of Toronto. His main areas of study are in abnormal, social, and personality psychology,[3] with a particular interest in the psychology of religious and ideological belief,[4] and the assessment and improvement of personality and performance." He's also a lecturer and author on self-improvement.

    Furthermore: "He emphasized his conceptualization of Christianity is probably not what it is generally understood, stating that the ethical responsibility of a Christian is to imitate Christ, for him meaning "something like you need to take responsibility for the evil in the world as if you were responsible for it ... to understand that you determine the direction of the world, whether it's toward heaven or hell" - Again, he seems clearly EIE. I'm going to trust that a PhD in Psychology can type himself just fine.
    "We live in an age in which there is no heroic death."


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  23. #783
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    yeah my only point was to shed light on why LII/EIE is not the discrepancy it might appear to be, the two are more closely related than it seems. at least according to gulenko. further, I think this explains how people could see LIE, because theres a kind of blurring of functions and its not a leap if you think hes Ni creative and logical base or some other mish mash to come out with LIE

  24. #784
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    he talks about it in one of his videos, honestly I don't remember which. he also says when you have a career in an club you shift to your mirage or semi if the club is outside your base type. and super ego if its that far outside. so basically the default slide is toward semi, and this has to do with base/suggestive development. this seems to happen in people assuming they're somewhat healthy no matter what. but lets say youre ESI (social) but you work in the humanitarian sphere, you then might look like mirage (EIE), or if you do research you might look like super ego (LII), and if you get into management its semi dual (LSE). now this is club based its not that semi always = management. if your semi dual is research, and you're EIE base, you may shift to LII sooner. In other words, people tend to shift according to certain tracks, they don't go all over the socion, and its the base/mirage/semi/super ego track that controls how most people look. this is blended with temperament too, so to get the full picture you could say of Peterson he's an EIE in a semi dual shift toward research and displays a dominant subtype. I think that is a pretty good description of him actually. it comes together with him being highly successful in his field (some might argue this, but he's a big name compared to most psychologists)

    psychology incorporates a lot but its generally on the border of research and the humanities, with a "psychologist" like Nietzsche or Dostoevsky, as well as your sages of all kinds and so forth, being a more pure humanitarian, and something like neuroscience/psychiatry and contemporary "scientific" psychology in the academy being more on the research side. Peterson is sort of straddling that so it makes sense he rose the top (D) within that precise territory

  25. #785
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    yey! I knew it! ^^

  26. #786
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    There are aspects why it's hard for me to see Jordan Peterson as -leading.

    If is his leading function then he present his feeling in a somewhat cold and detached way, more like in a way a NT type would do.
    My seeking function doesn't ring and says "No"... ok, but I'm sexual attracted to females anyway.
    He uses a lot of thinking judgement, much more then someone would expect from ExE.

    Furthermore, based on his lectures his prefered style is lecturing. I'd expect from a -leading type doing a lot more conversations and discussions with his students. I fail to see it, so far.
    He has much more the style of: I'm the expert, listen to me.

  27. #787
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    I dunno it makes sense to me EIE would give a sermon and not necessarily a conversational back and forth

  28. #788
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    If you can see a parallel between a sermon and a lecturer, Bertrand, then it would make sense;
    but tell me the religion where you can questioning the rules and the basis of it if you are not a member of an religious elite.
    Pastafarianism, maybe? How many minutes do you have to boil the pasta.
    A lot of communities of faith are not open to let dicuss there values by the community members.

  29. #789
    Haikus Computer Loser's Avatar
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    strong ti

    lii or lsi… probably the former

  30. #790
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    I've followed Dr. Peterson since the Bill C16 fiasco brought him to light, and have watched a number of his lectures, debates and other snippets. I'm surprised this video from March 2018 hasn't been quoted here:



    These are the percentiles he falls into (not to be confused with percentage scores) from his own modified Big-5 personality test:
    Extroversion (Enthusiasm): 75-80
    Extroversion (Assertiveness): 99
    Openness to Experience (Intellect): 99
    Openness to Experience (Openness): 95
    Agreeableness (Compassion): 75-80
    Agreeableness (Politeness): 30-40
    Conscientiousness (Industriousness): 99
    Conscientiousness (Orderliness): 70-75
    Neuroticism (Withdrawal): Low
    Neuroticism (Volatility): Quite High

    My thoughts from watching his content:
    He's definitely an assertive extrovert. Prolific lecturer, debater, author, entrepreneur...totally agree with high conscientiousness (Socionics thinking/logic, especially Te). He seems to straddle an interesting line regarding agreeableness (Socionics feeling/ethics, especially Fe). He is compassionate, but with a tendency to speak the truth assertively, something that I can attest to from his lectures. Very, very high openness (Socionics intuition); something that's also self-evident from his lines of thinking virtually everywhere he speaks. I've heard the phrase "dripping with Ni" used in this thread somewhere, and it's particularly accurate when you hear how he follows lines of reasoning to a single, inevitable predictive conclusion with unerring detail and accuracy.

    I definitely see him as a rational type, with him preferring to develop consistent methodology to produce reliable results in all his work. He's never an irrational, in my book.

    My conclusion: LIE-Ni with well-developed role Fe/suggestive Fi and a very strong Ni sub-type. EIE-Ni might be possible but his productive conscientiousness, drive for truthful expression, and lack of politeness don't mark him as an Fe-base in my opinion.

  31. #791
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    Weird. He strikes me as an introverted IJ type every time I see a video of him. If his BIG-5 extroversion results are so high, I must be doing something wrong with my typings.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  32. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Weird. He strikes me as an introverted IJ type every time I see a video of him. If his BIG-5 extroversion results are so high, I must be doing something wrong with my typings.
    @FDG, I agree with you. He does look like an introvert.

    I had a business partner who was very introverted but had a mask of manic extroversion. It was hard to know who he really was. He would happily spend months working alone designing and perfecting software and electronics, but he also built himself an enormous, expansive house to house his completely ignored family. It was as if he were two people.
    I never got a handle on this until I encountered his parents, who were among the coldest and most rejecting people I’ve ever met. I came to understand that my business partner suffered massive self-doubt concerning his intrinsic worth and consequently built a facade of magnificent success to win his parents approval (which, of course, they never gave).

    It would be interesting to meet Peterson’s parents.

    I find it particularly interesting that Peterson has written a book listing dead-simple rules that he says young males need to follow in order to grow up. Did he write that for himself?

    *EDIT*
    Full disclosure: I also have cold and rejecting parents, plenty of self-doubt, and seem to work hard to achieve “success“. Frankly, I find it a bit disturbing to see these similarities in myself. But my route to self-approval seems to lead me to associate with Fi-doms, while simultaneously stacking up money for God knows what purpose.
    The “stacking up money” thing is just a side-line; a minor goal. My true goal is to do interesting and fun things which please me. The money just assists with that.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 08-26-2018 at 11:29 AM.

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    He's Canadian, even their extreme extroverts are reserved. =P

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
    totally agree with high conscientiousness (Socionics thinking/logic, especially Te)
    Conscientiousness is more like rationality than like logic. Many a Ti-EP would score fairly low in that. The more I watch him, the less logic I see. I currently think EIE fits best and still think the spoilered content of THIS post is a good summary and characterization of him.

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    There is Tearsofclown member on this forum who self types as EIE. His style of speaking and bringing up issues really reminds me of JP. I have had voice chat with Tears.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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    I can see EIE with strong Ni-Subtype as option. EIE-Ni has both increased and
    Is his PoLR-Function?

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    ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FDG, I agree with you. He does look like an introvert.
    Or at the very least heīs really different than all the Te people I know, both EJ and IP. Itīs like logic and external references are quite hard to find in his discourse.

    I find it particularly interesting that Peterson has written a book listing dead-simple rules that he says young males need to follow in order to grow up. Did he write that for himself?
    Thatīs also something that an EJ-positivist would find very hard to do. A vortical-sinergistic thinking type concerning himself with how young males should clean up their room?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Or at the very least heīs really different than all the Te people I know, both EJ and IP. Itīs like logic and external references are quite hard to find in his discourse.

    Thatīs also something that an EJ-positivist would find very hard to do. A vortical-sinergistic thinking type concerning himself with how young males should clean up their room?
    Yes, @FDG, that's pretty weird.

    I told my own son that his room was his responsibility. He had to live there, not me. He pretty much kept it as clean as he wanted and I stayed out of it. I did give him a dollar a week allowance, conditional on him keeping the mess down, but then I taught him how to make money at a soda pop stand during football games. He made about $100 profit on his first weekend and told me he's never cleaning his room again. Lol. A good trade.

    To me, trying to tell people how to live their lives seems to reek of condescension. I can't imagine having the hubris to publish something like that.

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    tim ferriss says to make your bed every day, its not that weird, advice is usually offered to help people not condescend them, condescension is almost always a projection. naturally, people are always scheming all sorts of evil

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