Courting an ISFj-ESI?

[hatesyardwork]

A very shy Coworker is an ESI. Caught her staring at me a bunch of times and she always looks terrified after I catch her. This is new behavior after 5 months of making no eye contact, which I felt was a clue of her crushing because she refused to acknowledge me, only looked at me from the corner of her eye. She is shy so I tried not to crowd her and let her be. She has slowly been trying to flirt, and I am trying to be myself and let her get comfortable but she is very nervous around me, so edgy that she will often ignore me and back off, for days. I get very self conscious awkward flirting or none at all, but I can tell she is really trying. Her attraction is clear, but I would like perspective because she is terribly shy and I do nothing provocative, yet can't get her to relax and be herself. Very self assured around others, but she almost shuts down around me. When I come to work and see hers eyes darting when I look at her, I know there will be no interaction from her today, days when she is relaxed, I will flirt. Play it chill let her come around and get more and more comfortable? My instinct is to give her space, and I have made my attraction to her clear, a couple of bold flirty sexual compliments about her, that she liked, I really dig her, how should this be handled? 80% of the time she seems unapproachable, the other 20%, she is loose and will play the game. When it starts to get really flirty she shuts down and bails. Quite confident that she is ESI Se, very guarded and self contained and matter of fact, cordial but not timid around others, yet I can see a lot of vulnerability and emotion under the surface. PS.......she is mid 30's separated from the guy she married at 19, only man she has ever been with, so I know a lot of this is new and intimidating for her. Suggestions?

[Adam Strange]

Hi, hatesyardwork.

To start:
How to get ESI: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...acting-an-ISFj
In my very limited experience, this is pretty true.
So is your comment about them shutting down for days after you approach them. You just have to wait patiently for her to come back. Also, they can't be tied down in any way. You have to just let them be free, and accept your time together as a plus.

Real Life Examples of where you are going:
I know of two marriages between an ILI and an ESI.
In the first, my best male ESI friend from high school married an ILI. He is an astrophysicist and bikes, and she is a physical therapist, and they have been together for many years, have two kids. After he got married, he disappeared and I haven't spent enough time with him recently to know whether his marriage is good or not, but the ILI has put on a lot of weight, which indicates frustration to me.
My other good friend, a male ILI, married an ESI-Se. They are coming up on eight years together, and they seem to get along best when they are planning and doing trips. Otherwise, there are some problems, mainly with him not showing much affection and her freely spending money that he is desperately trying to save, because he doesn't earn much. He recently told me he lives in fear of discovering another $10k of debt on a stealth credit card she took out without his knowledge. But they are pretty happy together most of the time, I think.

Why you, as an ILI-Te, might want to think twice about this, even while taking into consideration the above two examples:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ns-IILI-ESI%29
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
Strat has been criticized on this forum for what has been claimed to be a misapplication of theory (?), but I like her articles, especially concerning Gammas (she is an ESI herself), for their conversational tone. She can go off the rails sometimes, but I really like most of her descriptions. I also find them to be very accurate, at least the parts near the beginning of her articles.

What your SEE dual looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFOfty5pmg
She's attractive enough for me, but a little too extroverted. Plus, an SEE would not admire and need my LIE rationality the way she would yours.

[End]

Hmmm, mistaking the mirror of your dual as your dual may be a problem. Is there any good ways to differentiate between an SEI and and SEE when push comes to shove? I'm ILI myself but yeah, I don't need any of that bullshit in my life. The stealth debt thing is especially troubling. They called it "bondage" for a reason, debt=slavery and I really don't want my partner signing me up for that behind my back. Seriously, that's a low blow.

[Skepsis]

It doesn't sound like she's comfortable around you. Finding you attractive and being comfortable are two different things. She probably knows she's being pursued and is unsure how she feels, otherwise she would reciprocate the flirting somehow, even find a way to be near you.

[Aylen]

My suggestion is be yourself and don't significantly alter your natural approach. If you really like her and already have a successful approach that got you some positive feedback then keep doing that.

You can't be absolutely sure of her type but if she is stuck in the flirty, then aloof, phase and you want more ask her out. A "no" is better than speculating what is going on and being stuck in a loop. In my relationship with an ILI I had to take control and tell him we were in a relationship and then he was fine. That is not my natural way since I am used to being approached but he was so bad at making the first move and I got tired of waiting. It took me four shots to work up my nerve.

[hatesyardwork]

She probably knows she's being pursued and is unsure how she feels, otherwise she would reciprocate the flirting somehow, even find a way to be near you.

I am not chasing at all, it's not my style. I just don't hide my interest. She does try to get close to me and tries to flirt, she is just terrible at it....A for effort, F in execution and quits. It's not me who is uncomfortable in my own skin.

[Adam Strange]

can you be around without flirting?

That's actually a great question. Do you like her and want to hang with her even when you're not trying to get into her pants?
I mean, that part's good, too, but mainly it should just be good (easy, comfortable) to be together.

[hatesyardwork]

It doesn't sound like she's comfortable around you.

Yep. Shy or intimidated? I really just want her to relax, she's very tense around me, it's unattractive and she knows it. Holiday work party season is coming up. She's gonna get loaded and confess all her sins. I am a patient man.

[End]

My suggestion is be yourself and don't significantly alter your natural approach. If you really like her and already have a successful approach that got you some positive feedback then keep doing that.

You can't be absolutely sure of her type but if she is stuck in the flirty, then aloof, phase and you want more ask her out. A "no" is better than speculating what is going on and being stuck in a loop. In my relationship with an ILI I had to take control and tell him we were in a relationship and then he was fine. That is not my natural way since I am used to being approached but he was so bad at making the first move and I got tired of waiting. It took me four shots to work up my nerve.

Awww, that's cute. Your advice is also sound, flat out rejection beats speculation every time. Hard to work up the courage because rejection sucks but someone has to do it. If you like them, ask them out. If they say no then you can just switch to the next target. This might cause them to ask you out rather aggressively if they see you doing this though because of reasons, reasons that aren't very pretty. That damned monkey, the source of most all your relationship drama and issues .

[hatesyardwork]

That's actually a great question. Do you like her and want to hang with her even when you're not trying to get into her pants?
I mean, that part's good, too, but mainly it should just be good (easy, comfortable) to be together.

I really enjoy her company when she is loose. She is funny, sarcastic and very bright. It's shocking to hear her trash people she doesn't like at our work.........she's as tough as nails. It was her work ethic, no bullshit style and punctuality that I initially respected. Physical was later after I noticed her attraction, although I thought she was hot, just not into me. I respected her before I became attracted. Remember she didn't speak or look at me for the first 5 months after I started. She was sizing me up, and probably still is.

[hatesyardwork]

My suggestion is be yourself and don't significantly alter your natural approach. If you really like her and already have a successful approach that got you some positive feedback then keep doing that

What I should make clear is she has initiated all this! I never chased and am still not chasing her. I am reacting to her overtures, trying to be a gentleman and not intrusive, she would not stand for that. She is very professional. If she hadn't begun speaking to me after a 5 month shunning I would still be blissfully unaware except for the fuck me glances I began to pick up on. I am trying to put at ease a woman who likes me by doing nothing, I am being totally reactive. I know she has to come around, not me.......I can tell she is determining how she feels. How patient should I be? My duals never fuck around, I usually avoid unexpressive women.

[hatesyardwork]

You can't be absolutely sure of her type but if she is stuck in the flirty, then aloof, phase and you want more ask her out. A "no" is better than speculating

You are correct my best guess is ESI, just feels right. I made my interest known and clear, it's her move. I want her but I will not beg someone who is balking. Hence my original post.

[hatesyardwork]

Hi, hatesyardwork.

To start:
How to get ESI: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...acting-an-ISFj
In my very limited experience, this is pretty true.
So is your comment about them shutting down for days after you approach them. You just have to wait patiently for her to come back. Also, they can't be tied down in any way. You have to just let them be free, and accept your time together as a plus.

Real Life Examples of where you are going:
I know of two marriages between an ILI and an ESI.
In the first, my best male ESI friend from high school married an ILI. He is an astrophysicist and bikes, and she is a physical therapist, and they have been together for many years, have two kids. After he got married, he disappeared and I haven't spent enough time with him recently to know whether his marriage is good or not, but the ILI has put on a lot of weight, which indicates frustration to me.
My other good friend, a male ILI, married an ESI-Se. They are coming up on eight years together, and they seem to get along best when they are planning and doing trips. Otherwise, there are some problems, mainly with him not showing much affection and her freely spending money that he is desperately trying to save, because he doesn't earn much. He recently told me he lives in fear of discovering another $10k of debt on a stealth credit card she took out without his knowledge. But they are pretty happy together most of the time, I think.

Why you, as an ILI-Te, might want to think twice about this, even while taking into consideration the above two examples:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ns-IILI-ESI%29
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
Strat has been criticized on this forum for what has been claimed to be a misapplication of theory (?), but I like her articles, especially concerning Gammas (she is an ESI herself), for their conversational tone. She can go off the rails sometimes, but I really like most of her descriptions. I also find them to be very accurate, at least the parts near the beginning of her articles.

What your SEE dual looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFOfty5pmg
She's attractive enough for me, but a little too extroverted. Plus, an SEE would not admire and need my LIE rationality the way she would yours.

Good stuff, I am quite familiar with my duels, they are hard to miss. They do however overlook me often. Socionics aside I just am very attracted to her, in a way that I can't ignore, on the inside and out, raging hard on for her, but she is busting my balls. Any advice from you is appreciated thank you.

[hatesyardwork]

I'm ILI myself but yeah, I don't need any of that bullshit in my life. The stealth debt thing is especially troubling. They called it "bondage" for a reason, debt=slavery and I really don't want my partner signing me up for that behind my back. Seriously, that's a low blow.

Playing a game with me to get attention does not sit well with me, but I don't think that is the case here. She is very sweet and not manipulative in the least. Just think she might not let me get close enough. When she blushes around me it seems like she shrivels to the size of a dwarf, her whole head sinks into her shoulders. It's not a game, she reeks of fear and it is so genuine that I find it endearing.

[Adam Strange]

Good stuff, I am quite familiar with my duels, they are hard to miss. They do however overlook me often. Socionics aside I just am very attracted to her, in a way that I can't ignore, on the inside and out, raging hard on for her, but she is busting my balls. Any advice from you is appreciated thank you.

Hi, hatesyardwork.
I think it is pretty easy to overlook your Duals. I did for many years. I just wasn't as mature (or aware) then as I am now. (Not saying I'm mature now, just more mature.) I basically found my male ESI friend (actually, he found me) in high school through having mutual interests. I mean, we were friends. Great friends, actually, and since I knew nothing about Socionics or personality theory, I assumed that kind of friendship was a once-in-a-lifetime deal. I didn't realize that it is possible to connect with a whole group of people (Duals) that way.

With respect to ESI's as types, the two female ESI duals I've met in the last few years were also met through having mutual interests, and I liked them before I considered them Possible. That may have hurt me with one of them, because I missed her signals at first. (I mean, she's too young for me, but she seems to think otherwise, but she's too young for me.) So, from my very limited experience, I would say you should try to just be a friend first. ESI's have a core of doubt that constantly crashes against what must be your rock in the relationship. If you believe it's good, they may slowly start to believe it could be, too, but you've got to prove that to them every day. Really, read the articles in the links. Like you, I'm a skeptic, but I've found 99% of what the articles say to be true.

They might sometimes appear to "reek of fear", since most ESI's are enneagram 6's, but it is anxiety, actually. They are just trying to minimize future problems, and that includes you, surprisingly. I look at a relationship as a chance to have fun and a better life every day with someone I like, and they look at it as a lifetime of service and obligation, so they are going to be very, very careful about who they get close to. They also are pretty much in touch with their sexuality (for sure more than you or I are), but shrink at the thought of pleasure. (Personally, I think this wait-and-see-if-he-can-be-trusted attitude keeps them away from SLE's, whom LIE's partly resemble, except for having more patience and foresight.) So, you've got to do your part to let them know its OK to get close to you. If they then think it is a good idea, they will approach. If they don't, they won't, and you just move on.

And yes, they are very genuine. What else would you want?

[hatesyardwork]

Hi, hatesyardwork.
I think it is pretty easy to overlook your Duals. I did for many years. I just wasn't as mature (or aware) then as I am now. (Not saying I'm mature now, just more mature.) I basically found my ESI friend (actually, he found me) in high school through having mutual interests. I mean, we were friends. Great friends, actually, and since I knew nothing about Socionics or personality theory, I assumed that kind of friendship was a once-in-a-lifetime deal. I didn't realize that it is possible to connect with a whole group of people (Duals) that way.

I see you are ENTJ bro. Have you had a romantic relationship with your ESI duals? I find this women frustrating and mysterious. No question I am attracted, that's why I am still letting it play out. I usually say fuck it first sign of nonsense, but she intrigues me because I have seen bits and pieces of her when she is being herself, and that is idealizing her I suppose. I am not a doormat though, I will move on, but I see her everyday and she and the sexual tension is killing me. You are right about duals though, it all seem seamless somehow, you blink and realize you are in a relationship. Back to you........BoyGirl dual experience? It's great till they put on 40 pounds from the meals you are paying for.

[hatesyardwork]

[QUOTE=Adam Strange;1102396]













What your SEE dual looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyFOfty5pmg
[/QUOTE @Adam Strange Thanks for this brother. Soft Core is vastly underrated as a masturbatory aid.

[hatesyardwork]

Hi, hatesyardwork.
I think it is pretty easy to overlook your Duals. I did for many years. I just wasn't as mature (or aware) then as I am now. (Not saying I'm mature now, just more mature.) I basically found my male ESI friend (actually, he found me) in high school through having mutual interests. I mean, we were friends. Great friends, actually, and since I knew nothing about Socionics or personality theory, I assumed that kind of friendship was a once-in-a-lifetime deal. I didn't realize that it is possible to connect with a whole group of people (Duals) that way.

With respect to ESI's as types, the two female ESI duals I've met in the last few years were also met through having mutual interests, and I liked them before I considered them Possible. That may have hurt me with one of them, because I missed her signals at first. (I mean, she's too young for me, but she seems to think otherwise, but she's too young for me.) So, from my very limited experience, I would say you should try to just be a friend first. ESI's have a core of doubt that constantly crashes against what must be your rock in the relationship. If you believe it's good, they may slowly start to believe it could be, too, but you've got to prove that to them every day. Really, read the articles in the links. Like you, I'm a skeptic, but I've found 99% of what the articles say to be true.

They might sometimes appear to "reek of fear", since most ESI's are enneagram 6's, but it is anxiety, actually. They are just trying to minimize future problems, and that includes you, surprisingly. I look at a relationship as a chance to have fun and a better life every day with someone I like, and they look at it as a lifetime of service and obligation, so they are going to be very, very careful about who they get close to. They also are pretty much in touch with their sexuality (for sure more than you or I are), but shrink at the thought of pleasure. (Personally, I think this wait-and-see-if-he-can-be-trusted attitude keeps them away from SLE's, whom LIE's partly resemble, except for having more patience and foresight.) So, you've got to do your part to let them know its OK to get close to you. If they then think it is a good idea, they will approach. If they don't, they won't, and you just move on.

And yes, they are very genuine. What else would you want?

Excellent post. All of it. I have read a lot on ESI in an attempt to understand what is happening. Anxiety is a much better description than fear. I keep reading that they are the most loyal yet untrusting of types, truly guarded, and like you said you have to work very hard and that actions speak louder than words. I am not good at this, I try to blow them away with knowledge. She is very careful, so she actually hasn't seen that side of me, our conversations rarely get to the point where my erudition kicks in. Perhaps I am hiding as much as she is. Much appreciated

[hatesyardwork]

Off subject. I know comic book affiliations and alliances can be a touchy subject with some people. I am not a fan of Marvel or DC. I was a Cracked/MAD magazine or Conan the Barbarian, Archie and Jughead type stuff was my allowance allotment. I am admitting ignorance when I say I don't recognize yours, or most comic avatars.........who is that?

[hatesyardwork]

[QUOTE=hatesyardwork;1102459]Off subject. I know comic book affiliations and alliances can be a touchy subject with some people. I am not a fan of Marvel or DC. I was a Cracked/MAD magazine or Conan the Barbarian, Archie and Jughead type stuff was my allowance allotment. I am admitting ignorance when I say I don't recognize yours, or most comic avatars.........who is that?[/QUOTE @Adam Strange

[hatesyardwork]

They also are pretty much in touch with their sexuality (for sure more than you or I are), but shrink at the thought of pleasure

Yeah no shit. As shy as she is, she often takes her coat off right in front of me with this whole "I want you to check me out, I know I look good." Just stands there letting me sink her in, slowly with her head in the air like a peacock.......wants me to look at her. It's very confident and provocative. It is usually after lunch and I can smell beer on her. Then she avoids me for 3 days.

[Adam Strange]

I see you are ENTJ bro. Have you had a romantic relationship with your ESI duals?

Yes, I am ENTj, and my relationships with the two female Duals are not sexual (although one would be if we were closer in age; at least I'd be OK with that, can't prove it from her side). I did have sex with a woman I retrospectively type as an ESI, but that is only because we got along so well. We played together very, very well, the sex was both hot and friendly. But as for a long-term romantic relationship, no. Just relationships where I feel attached to them. (I married an SLI about a year after the ESI and stopped looking until after my divorce this year.) I am presently looking, but I'm also choosy, and ESI's seem to me to be hard to find. It doesn't help that I work all the time. So, as I said earlier, my romantic experience with ESI's is limited. On the other hand, I get along great with the ones I know, and have every reason to believe that would continue to be true in a romantic relationship, assuming I can get the social things to match better than they have so far.

I find this women frustrating and mysterious. No question I am attracted, that's why I am still letting it play out. I usually say fuck it first sign of nonsense, but she intrigues me because I have seen bits and pieces of her when she is being herself, and that is idealizing her I suppose. I am not a doormat though, I will move on, but I see her everyday and she and the sexual tension is killing me. You are right about duals though, it all seem seamless somehow, you blink and realize you are in a relationship.

Frustrating and mysterious is seriously not good. I was seeing an IEI for a while and thought exactly the same things about her. Found her Ni to be mysterious and super-attractive, along with her Fe, but her Ti and very weak Se was very frustrating. She couldn't implement my Te solutions to her daily problems, and she thought about sex a lot and never liked to actually have it. That was her, though. Not all IEI's are like that. But frustrating and mysterious is seriously not good. It indicates a severe mis-match somewhere.
Incidentally, I truly doubt she is trying to bust your balls. I just don't think they do that. (The IEI totally did that, but it was to make sure she was with the "strongest" male. IEI's really are built for SLE's.) Instead, I think the ESI is probably just waiting to see if you are safe, but maybe I'm being naive.

Back to you........BoyGirl dual experience? It's great till they put on 40 pounds from the meals you are paying for.

Well, platonic boy-boy and platonic boy-girl (long-term) experience, so far.
If you are worried about weight, look for the sports model, the ESI-Se. They're supposed to keep themselves in good shape, although your mileage may vary. In any case, putting on weight is a sign of frustration. Remove the frustration, and the weight will come off.
But come to think about it, all the ESI's I know have good bodies and are reasonably thin.

[Adam Strange]

Off subject. I know comic book affiliations and alliances can be a touchy subject with some people. I am not a fan of Marvel or DC. I was a Cracked/MAD magazine or Conan the Barbarian, Archie and Jughead type stuff was my allowance allotment. I am admitting ignorance when I say I don't recognize yours, or most comic avatars.........who is that?

My avatar is Adam Strange.
http://www.amazon.com/Adam-Strange-A...s=adam+strange

When I was a kid about ten or eleven years old, I got into a poker game in the neighborhood and won this guys old comic books. They were old issues of Mystery in Space, featuring Adam Strange, and looked like they had been thrown in the street and run over by a few cars. Nevertheless, I read them and they were the best stories I had ever read, with the best artwork (by Carmine Infantino). Adam Strange was an archeologist who accidentally got in the path of a Zeta beam that transported him to the planet Rann, where he met Alanna and her scientist father. He saved their world from some menace before the beam wore off and he was returned to Earth.

Adam Strange used his brains to solve problems and protect the people in his life, and the relationship he had with Alanna was easily seen to be both adult and sexual, which is something that you don't see in comics very often. She was his social and intellectual equal, and to this half-Czech, half-Irish kid, she was both beautiful and an example of what a true partner a woman can be.

I identify with his character in almost every way there is. Still have the original comics, too.

[hatesyardwork]

Yes, I am ENTj, and my relationships with the two female Duals are not sexual (although one would be if we were closer in age; at least I'd be OK with that, can't prove it from her side). I did have sex with a woman I retrospectively type as an ESI, but that is only because we got along so well. We played together very, very well, the sex was both hot and friendly. But as for a long-term romantic relationship, no. Just relationships where I feel attached to them. (I married an SLI about a year after the ESI and stopped looking until after my divorce this year.) I am presently looking, but I'm also choosy, and ESI's seem to me to be hard to find. It doesn't help that I work all the time. So, as I said earlier, my romantic experience with ESI's is limited. On the other hand, I get along great with the ones I know, and have every reason to believe that would continue to be true in a romantic relationship, assuming I can get the social things to match better than they have so far.



Frustrating and mysterious is seriously not good. I was seeing an IEI for a while and thought exactly the same things about her. Found her Ni to be mysterious and super-attractive, along with her Fe, but her Ti and very weak Se was very frustrating. She couldn't implement my Te solutions to her daily problems, and she thought about sex a lot and never liked to actually have it. That was her, though. Not all IEI's are like that. But frustrating and mysterious is seriously not good. It indicates a severe mis-match somewhere.
Incidentally, I truly doubt she is trying to bust your balls. I just don't think they do that. (The IEI totally did that, but it was to make sure she was with the "strongest" male. IEI's really are built for SLE's.) Instead, I think the ESI is probably just waiting to see if you are safe, but maybe I'm being naive.


Well, platonic boy-boy and platonic boy-girl (long-term) experience, so far.
If you are worried about weight, look for the sports model, the ESI-Se. They're supposed to keep themselves in good shape, although your mileage may vary. In any case, putting on weight is a sign of frustration. Remove the frustration, and the weight will come off.
But come to think about it, all the ESI's I know have good bodies and are reasonably thin.

Very insightful, thanks again. I read that esi are 9=10% of total population, but as introverts they are often hard to know, but I have known very few. Everyone seems Fe to me. I meant that my duals put on 40 pounds...........it has never not happened. My ESI is long and lean, yet very feminine. Hard but soft at the same time, even with 2 kids (which adds further complexity) Busting my balls is an overstatement, she is just being her and trying to be the best her, that's all she can do. I understand Fi........we can be very self absorbed. Not trying to hurt anyone else, just obsessing over our own shit and leaving everyone else on the back burner. That's why I like her, I feel like I understand her unusually well. Question my type or hers, but I find the notion of Quadra compatability very compelling. You said 99% makes sense, it is not at all counter intuitive, and I agree with you. Overthinking and reactionary confidence in our intuitions can be a death nail for me and all types. "Ourselves before others" I am a self absorbed prick, lacking humility. Your wisdom and frankness make search for some humility and concrete solutions. I need to relax as much as she does. Thank you sir.

[hatesyardwork]

My avatar is Adam Strange.
http://www.amazon.com/Adam-Strange-A...s=adam+strange

When I was a kid about ten or eleven years old, I got into a poker game in the neighborhood and won this guys old comic books. They were old issues of Mystery in Space, featuring Adam Strange, and looked like they had been thrown in the street and run over by a few cars. Nevertheless, I read them and they were the best stories I had ever read, with the best artwork (by Carmine Infantino). Adam Strange was an archeologist who accidentally got in the path of a Zeta beam that transported him to the planet Rann, where he met Alanna and her scientist father. He saved their world from some menace before the beam wore off and he was returned to Earth.

Adam Strange used his brains to solve problems and protect the people in his life, and the relationship he had with Alanna was easily seen to be both adult and sexual, which is something that you don't see in comics very often. She was his social and intellectual equal, and to this half-Czech, half-Irish kid, she was both beautiful and an example of what a true partner a woman can be.

I identify with his character in almost every way there is. Still have the original comics, too.

That's fascinating,. I admit not knowing it or Mysteries in Space. I was always more into stories than the artwork, so this sounds like something I would enjoy, and I will use your link. That how I got into Conan, it was the stories mostly and the cover art of I believe Frank Frizetti sp...............there is a great documentary about him, and his influence on art and film although an underground artist toiling in obscurity while the world worshipped Andy Warhol. Thanks for the link. Given my knowledge of ENTJ tastes, it should interest me. I would give you accurate spelling and links to this Frizetti fellow but despite the ILI reputation, I am not that proficient with computers at all. I struggle to taper thread quotes correctly, which is why I just use your whole post instead of bits and pieces. Very original and obscure avatar. I admire both these qualities.

[Adam Strange]

Very insightful, thanks again. I read that esi are 9=10% of total population, but as introverts they are often hard to know, but I have known very few. Everyone seems Fe to me. I meant that my duals put on 40 pounds...........it has never not happened. My ESI is long and lean, yet very feminine. Hard but soft at the same time, even with 2 kids (which adds further complexity) Busting my balls is an overstatement, she is just being her and trying to be the best her, that's all she can do. I understand Fi........we can be very self absorbed. Not trying to hurt anyone else, just obsessing over our own shit and leaving everyone else on the back burner. That's why I like her, I feel like I understand her unusually well. Question my type or hers, but I find the notion of Quadra compatability very compelling. You said 99% makes sense, it is not at all counter intuitive, and I agree with you. Overthinking and reactionary confidence in our intuitions can be a death nail for me and all types. "Ourselves before others" I am a self absorbed prick, lacking humility. Your wisdom and frankness make search for some humility and concrete solutions. I need to relax as much as she does. Thank you sir.

Hey, man, no problem. Happy to help, if I did.
Yeah, I think ESI's do make up about 9-10% of the population, while LIE's are closer to 2-3%, which means that a lot of ESI's are not going to be dualized. I'm an optimizer and believe I might as well propel them towards fellow Gammas, where they can at least find understanding and a good life, and maybe a better deal than some LIE's can offer.
Otherwise, it is very possible for them to get sexually attracted to their Mirage or Extinguishment partners and marry them and have a hellish life.
I met this one ESI in a hair salon. She had two kids and was in a bad marriage (she told me her second husband now looks at her like she's an idiot every time she talks to him, but she is going to stay in the marriage for the sake of her kids. Truly a bummer.
Also, I'm not a sir. I'm a guy who thinks everyone could be happy if we would just lend each other a hand, and this is a point where lending a hand might make a difference.

[hatesyardwork]

I identify with his character in almost every way there is. Still have the original comics, too.

How many 11 year olds gamble for money? lol I have been betting football since I was 12. Amazon Prime brother, volume 1, USPS 2 day free delivery, it's booked. 5 star reviews, although not the original comics.....hardcover. I will let you know what I think. Is it geared to kids, or an interesting adult read? What are the socionics types of the main characters? You ever start a thread on him?

[Adam Strange]

How many 11 year olds gamble for money? lol I have been betting football since I was 12. Amazon Prime brother, volume 1, USPS 2 day free delivery, it's booked. 5 star reviews, although not the original comics.....hardcover. I will let you know what I think. Is it geared to kids, or an interesting adult read? What are the socionics types of the main characters? You ever start a thread on him?

It is geared to kids, unfortunately. But I was a kid when I read the stories. What I liked about the stories is the fact that they showed that a person could make his way in the world by using his brains, and that a man and a woman could be equal partners. I can't describe how much that affected my life.
Honestly, I think Adam is LIE and Alanna is ESI. The first thing she did when she met him was to introduce him to her father (so be prepared - family is super-important to ESI's). She is pretty physical, too, shoots and drives well, is loyal and her reaction to Adam temporarily finding another female late in the story line (third book, I think - I bought all three books last year to remind me of my values) rings very true to ESI behavior. Personally, I thought the story was very off, since Adam would obviously never do anything as stupid as that (I remember being outraged when I read it. OK, the new girl was blonde, beautiful, and better-built than Alanna, but would not have made such a solid partner), but the story arc was coming to an end and the writers were probably getting desperate.
Incidentally, one of Adam's greatest adversaries was an ILI criminal mastermind, the only one who could out-think him. I always admired the mastermind's office/workspace. I'd like to have one just like it.

[hatesyardwork]

Hey, man, no problem. Happy to help, if I did.
Yeah, I think ESI's do make up about 9-10% of the population, while LIE's are closer to 2-3%, which means that a lot of ESI's are not going to be dualized. I'm an optimizer and believe I might as well propel them towards fellow Gammas, where they can at least find understanding and a good life, and maybe a better deal than some LIE's can offer.
Otherwise, it is very possible for them to get sexually attracted to their Mirage or Extinguishment partners and marry them and have a hellish life.
I met this one ESI in a hair salon. She had two kids and was in a bad marriage (she told me her second husband now looks at her like she's an idiot every time she talks to him, but she is going to stay in the marriage for the sake of her kids. Truly a bummer.
Also, I'm not a sir. I'm a guy who thinks everyone could be happy if we would just lend each other a hand, and this is a point where lending a hand might make a difference.

The self sacrificing ESI.......duty, honor and others. Seems very consistent with the soul of the Russian people who have overcome the death of millions over millennia. One article talks of the dutiful Russian wife enduring all even for the most wretched of men. I don't think that is a patronizing description given the dynamics of lead Fi. Your dignity is how you view yourself, more so than how others view you. Pride and dignity, very easy understood concept with me even as an Ni ego. I become more obstinate the more I am opposed , if I think I am right. Bummer about the hair dresser although it seems self fulfilling. Is that an Fi subtype trait, or typical of Se subtype as well? The husband who mocks her, I had the reverse in my childhood, a mocking mother and a dutiful father. I know the old man stuck it out as long as he could, but my mother broke him when I was about 13. Loveless marriage from the outset, when illegitimacy was still shameful. I always knew it even as a child. A few years ago I told him how much I respected him for hanging on as long as he did with our mother and I knew he did it for his children, but he couldn't do it anymore. He broke down, I had never seen him cry. I can't type him, truth is we are not very close.....introvert of some kind, lead Si I believe. He has a wife now who loves him. Mom is my dual, we are very close, as nuts and as self destructive and vain and all else, I know she can't change. She never surprises me. She has never gotten along with any dual of mine. She is vicious. Serious note......you have helped immensely today Adam Strange, I made this post this morning, thank you. I am going to smack her on her ESI ass and give her a big old kiss just like that stalwart adam strange at work tomorrow.... one of the reviews stated something like "cross between Buck Rodgers and Flash Gordon" I use to love those old Buster Crabbe Flash Gordon serials. Sounds like Indiana Jones was a strait robbery of that narrative.

[Adam Strange]

I am going to smack her on her ESI ass and give her a big old kiss just like that stalwart adam strange at work tomorrow....

Whoa, man, I wouldn't do that if I were you. I think you can be forward, but I also think it is by invitation only.

Remember the part that says "she is waiting to see if you let your hands loose. Don't let your hands loose". The article also describes a very gradual series of increasingly intimate steps.

Personally, I would tell her, "I'm going to see a play-movie-concert-whatever, would you like to join me?" That is better than asking her to dinner, where the attention is on her, which she will not like. Also, the question gives her only one choice to make (concert or not?), not What would you like to do together?, which ESI's hate. They absolutely hate indecision in others. If you don't know what you want to do, they don't want to know you.

I've verified this myself. When I offered a multiple choice option, they always refuse. When I offer a single choice yes/no option, they only refuse about half the time, depending on how they feel, which is fair enough.

Man, an ESI is your Activity partner. Do something together. Don't smack her on her ass. At least, not until she asks you to.

[hatesyardwork]

It is geared to kids, unfortunately. But I was a kid when I read the stories. What I liked about the stories is the fact that they showed that a person could make his way in the world by using his brains, and that a man and a woman could be equal partners. I can't describe how much that affected my life.
Honestly, I think Adam is LIE and Alanna is ESI. The first thing she did when she met him was to introduce him to her father (so be prepared - family is super-important to ESI's). She is pretty physical, too, shoots and drives well, is loyal and her reaction to Adam temporarily finding another female late in the story line (third book, I think - I bought all three books last year to remind me of my values) rings very true to ESI behavior. Personally, I thought the story was very off, since Adam would obviously never do anything as stupid as that (I remember being outraged when I read it. OK, the new girl was blonde, beautiful, and better-built than Alanna, but would not have made such a solid partner), but the story arc was coming to an end and the writers were probably getting desperate.
Incidentally, one of Adam's greatest adversaries was an ILI criminal mastermind, the only one who could out-think him. I always admired the mastermind's office/workspace. I'd like to have one just like it.

Amazing..,,,, of course that would resonate with you, years before typology could have possibly held your interest. That is voodoo sounding shit. You have thought long and hard on this haven't you. Your summary seems to be tooth and nail in step with Gamma values. Democracy, equality, meritocracy and fairness. The few LIE I know are not in the least bit overbearing and controlling of women, ever......although I don't know they're wives well enough to type. That makes me feel good to hear this from you. Like you had found your mission statement the way Frodo found the ring in Golum's cave. Didn't know the impact of it at the time, but it was life affecting. My video of Leon Spinks in my type thread, I said he was my moral barometer. I often think of him when I think of how I need to treat others. I often fail, and when I do I think of him. There are some things that just make you want to smile, your story is one of them........you should write a screenplay. PS How many half Irish, half Czech Amazon looking house frau's you guys got out there in the Midwest, or is that mathematically too impossible? I hope you hit the lotto bro.

[hatesyardwork]

Whoa, man, I wouldn't do that if I were you. I think you can be forward, but I also think it is by invitation only.

Remember the part that says "she is waiting to see if you let your hands loose. Don't let your hands loose". The article also describes a very gradual series of increasingly intimate steps.

Personally, I would tell her, "I'm going to see a play-movie-concert-whatever, would you like to join me?" That is better than asking her to dinner, where the attention is on her, which she will not like. Also, the question gives her only one choice to make (concert or not?), not What would you like to do together?, which ESI's hate. They absolutely hate indecision in others. If you don't know what you want to do, they don't want to know you.

I've verified this myself. When I offered a multiple choice option, they always refuse. When I offer a single choice yes/no option, they only refuse about half the time, depending on how they feel, which is fair enough.

Man, an ESI is your Activity partner. Do something together. Don't smack her on her ass. At least, not until she asks you to.

Wise very wise

[suedehead]

You need to go balls deep brother, tell her how you feel.

[nondescript]

A very shy Coworker is an ESI. Caught her staring at me a bunch of times and she always looks terrified after I catch her. This is new behavior after 5 months of making no eye contact, which I felt was a clue of her crushing because she refused to acknowledge me, only looked at me from the corner of her eye. She is shy so I tried not to crowd her and let her be. She has slowly been trying to flirt, and I am trying to be myself and let her get comfortable but she is very nervous around me, so edgy that she will often ignore me and back off, for days. I get very self conscious awkward flirting or none at all, but I can tell she is really trying. Her attraction is clear, but I would like perspective because she is terribly shy and I do nothing provocative, yet can't get her to relax and be herself. Very self assured around others, but she almost shuts down around me. When I come to work and see hers eyes darting when I look at her, I know there will be no interaction from her today, days when she is relaxed, I will flirt. Play it chill let her come around and get more and more comfortable? My instinct is to give her space, and I have made my attraction to her clear, a couple of bold flirty sexual compliments about her, that she liked, I really dig her, how should this be handled? 80% of the time she seems unapproachable, the other 20%, she is loose and will play the game. When it starts to get really flirty she shuts down and bails. Quite confident that she is ESI Se, very guarded and self contained and matter of fact, cordial but not timid around others, yet I can see a lot of vulnerability and emotion under the surface. PS.......she is mid 30's separated from the guy she married at 19, only man she has ever been with, so I know a lot of this is new and intimidating for her. Suggestions?

Hi. I'm an ESI-Se ask me anything. Or at least I understand them enough due to my large body of research on them.

[hatesyardwork]

You need to go balls deep brother, tell her how you feel

Balls Deep? Is that a Russian expression? I am new to socionics.

[hatesyardwork]

[QUOTE]Hi. I'm an ESI-Se ask me anything. Or at least I understand them enough due to my large body of research on them.[/QUOTE @nondescript...............Thanks for the offer. Before specifics, anything already stated from this thread you can add some insight on?

[nondescript]

These are some things that I observed about myself:

-> I prefer easy, gradual approach
-> I do notice the difference between words and so you should be careful which l word you use(Te DS)
-> Even better, show affection with actions rather than words(Se-Ni valued involves a playful acts of dominance / submission)
-> Introvert: there is ever present danger of basically escape(I once dropped out of college due to this )
-> I also like to show affection with acts
-> Time: if she is shy(I am not), give her time, but do acknowledge her interest
-> ESI often like to passively watch with often strong internal feelings-meaning that they won't necessarily show their emotions beyond the darting eyes(first sign of interest 100% of time ). You know what I mean.
-> I am actually very physical, but it's with permission only. Now, with permission on subject's side, not mine. Am I an SEE lol? Regardless, I don't like people barging on me and my territory.

If you need anything more, feel free to ask.

[hatesyardwork]

These are some things that I observed about myself:

-> I prefer easy, gradual approach
-> I do notice the difference between words and so you should be careful which l word you use(Te DS)
-> Even better, show affection with actions rather than words(Se-Ni valued involves a playful acts of dominance / submission)
-> Introvert: there is ever present danger of basically escape(I once dropped out of college due to this )
-> I also like to show affection with acts
-> Time: if she is shy(I am not), give her time, but do acknowledge her interest
-> ESI often like to passively watch with often strong internal feelings-meaning that they won't necessarily show their emotions beyond the darting eyes(first sign of interest 100% of time ). You know what I mean.
-> I am actually very physical, but it's with permission only. Now, with permission on subject's side, not mine. Am I an SEE lol? Regardless, I don't like people barging on me and my territory.
Tod
If you need anything more, feel free to ask.

Thanks for the insight. I have seen all this behavior from her. I haven't interacted with her for about 2 weeks, because point 4 (escape) is her typical behavior. Today she handed out invitations for one of her kids birthday BQ to everyone but me. Loudly giving the invitations to everyone and then staring at me each time she handed them out. She wasn't even looking at the them while she was passing out the invites , just staring me down.......with a why haven't you chatted me up lately look. I'm officially as of this post, bored with her, I'm done.........she just wants attention.

[hatesyardwork]

If you need anything more, feel free to ask.

I saw something in her today that rubbed me wrong. She was indignant! Been flakey, passive and neurotic to me for months and now she is angry because I haven't spoken to her lately. It was so unattractive, childish, petty and WEIRD. Like hitting a guy because you like him and don't know what else to do. I don't know why she thinks punishing me with no invite is a good tactical mood. She likes me a lot, obvious. but she has no idea how to act like an adult. My attraction nosedived today. Meek, passive and angry. Where do I sign up? I am Fuckin done. I have a feeling that I will soon be posting HOW TO GET AN ESI TO STOP STALKING YOU. She had a crazy look in her eye

[wacey]

I saw something in her today that rubbed me wrong. She was indignant! Been flakey, passive and neurotic to me for months and now she is angry because I haven't spoken to her lately. It was so unattractive, childish, petty and WEIRD. Like hitting a guy because you like him and don't know what else to do. I don't know why she thinks punishing me with no invite is a good tactical mood. She likes me a lot, obvious. but she has no idea how to act like an adult. My attraction nosedived today. Meek, passive and angry. Where do I sign up? I am Fuckin done. I have a feeling that I will soon be posting HOW TO GET AN ESI TO STOP STALKING YOU. She had a crazy look in her eye

mauhahahahaha.