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Thread: ESI-ILE conflict relations (ISFj and ENTp)

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    Default ESI-ILE conflict relations (ISFj and ENTp)

    In case anyone still has any doubts of whether or not I'm ILE, I've got a very good example of possible conflict with ESIs back when I was in 8th grade.


    You see, back in middle school I was that kid who had no awareness what other people thought of me and would like to make fun of people who get all pissy for you "acting inappropriate". I would constantly make dick jokes, draw swastikas and talk about killing babies. I strongly suspect the principle was ESI, he looked a lot like this:

    rf_005.jpg



    So one day, I had this brilliant idea. My brother had this greeting card in his cabinet that he and his friends from long ago drew all sorts of ridiculous nonsense on in a very artistic fashion. I'm talking about stuff like drawings of a guys face with a chin that looks like a ballsack with finely drawn pubic hairs. My plan was to take the card and then place it on some random person's desk before the beginning of class. I would then observe everyone's shock for my amusement.

    So went through with it and everyone was indeed shocked. Nobody called me out immediately but they began taking kids down to the principles office for interrogation, I was eventually called down. I tried to keep my composure the best I could but my face turned beet red when he said, "Well I've heard some people say YOU did it."
    It got away with it this time however because nobody thought of me as "bad kid".

    My thrist for chaos continued however and I did stuff such writing PENIS in big capital letters on all the paper instruction manuals inside the calculator cases. My luck ran out one day when I accidentally offended a black kid while I was chanting "Nigga Nigga Nigga". He reported this to the principle and all my secrets where exposed. He also checked all the notebooks within my locker where he found drawings of stuff such as Martin Luther King with a dick in his mouth. Needless to say this didn't exactly rub him the right way and his Ne polr took me for some evil racist kid who was going to be the next ******. When I was in his office I could just feel his Fi piercing deep down into my soul. I got suspended for the rest of the week and had to spend the rest of the day as the kid with the dunce cap (not literally).

    From that day onward began my complete social withdrawal.

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    i too have a thirst for chaos. it's difficult to find the innocent but still worth it chaos that isn't at someone else's expense. i went through a phase in 6th grade, where my friend and i would write comics starring my 6th grade teacher, and pass them back and forth in class. i felt somewhat ashamed of myself when he found out. the intent wasn't malicious, but you wouldn't know it from the content. i grew a better conscience in the next couple years and hoped this hadn't hurt him. he seemed really strong on the surface, but sometimes those people are the most sensitive and vulnerable beneath. i wouldn't be surprised if his life was kind of miserable for him.

    it was consoling that later in the year my 6th grade teacher reported to my parents that my will had been hijacked by a certain "bad character" in the class. she had already flunked the 6th grade at least once (i can no longer remember) and was 2 years older than me. i went along with her out of curiosity, but my 6th grade teacher apparently thought none of it was really my fault - so maybe he wasn't hurt by the comics either not thinking it a true representation of my character (?). he regretfully told my parents how my performance in school had suffered because of my association with her. he never even mentioned the comics to my parents, surprisingly (i wrote those with a different friend - the "bad character" was too mature for such games).

    i suppose that girl was manipulating me sometimes, but i let her do it. i just was too curious. perhaps i need to change my psychic yoga type to V in the 4th position.

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    Idk about socionics,

    But there is this thing where , if you are in a position of authority- you gotta be really stern & snooty- and you kinda naturally forget the innocent time of when you were a kid and mad bad immature negro jokes etc.

    I always thought it was weird that we consider sex the opposite of authority. Like, if a president is too risque or exposes his penis in public- that automatically means he's a bad president. (clinton got a blowjob, so what?) Which is kind of silly because it doesn't make logical sense. You can, in theory- be a good leader and show your junk/be immature at the same time. And it's always so dark if a senator covers up some sex scandal, even though most of them are naturally perverts anyway, because they are men- or simply because they are human beings.

    (even though I say all of this, I also think too many jokes about minorities can just be very immature... but it seems like, too many people these days want to pigeon hole people into either Social Justice Warriors or asshole trollers.)

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    I still have the same problems. I have heard terms such as uppity, snooty etc to be applied on me by ESIs in matter of seconds. Yes, some of them have told it to me aloud in my youth especially the younger ones. Coming from first impression: it is all about how I carry myself. We are completely different and those types put much emphasis on body language and giving presentable expression. The appreciation of serious business is quite marked. It gets even more difficult when I talk. "I´m not listening to you. What are you talking about?".

    I just try my best staying away from them.

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    Well, I can give you another story of a conflict relationship between an ILE (my husband) and an ESI (our friend). They've known each other almost as long as we've been married, our elder kids are of the same age, etc. So this is a long standing relationship but it had its ups and downs. When they first met they were quite attracted to each other (typical, ah?). ESI saw that ILE was kind, caring, attentive, but also inventive and basically fun. And ESI was seen as, well, just a very good person (kind, considerate, skilled in Si things, hospitable, very good with children - that part particularly impressed ILE). So they've made firends and saw each other quite often but then trouble gradually began. ESI didn't have a job she deserved, so we, two intuitive feeling people, told her that she deserves so much better, she's actually very good and should get a better pay, etc. We thought to inspire and never knew that we only kindled her insecurity with all that talk. And this happened time after time. She would visit and tell us about her problems (mostly money-related, obviously seeking Te advice) and we would start: "Helen, you're so good at this, you underestimate yourself, be a little bolder, let's start looking for a new job, let's write a CV and post it now..." Well, we didn't know much of socionics then I don't know how the poor girl persevered with us, and we did quarrel a little bit and once we quarreled a lot over kids (the proper way to bring up kids), but we are still friends. ILE tries to bite his tongue whenever he's inspired to "show her the bright possibilities", ESI stopped telling him that suits really suit him (he hates suits!) and that he should dress as a bank clerk, we've basically come to terms All it takes is a lot of good will on both sides and a lot of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeyeva View Post
    Well, I can give you another story of a conflict relationship between an ILE (my husband) and an ESI (our friend). They've known each other almost as long as we've been married, our elder kids are of the same age, etc. So this is a long standing relationship but it had its ups and downs. When they first met they were quite attracted to each other (typical, ah?). ESI saw that ILE was kind, caring, attentive, but also inventive and basically fun. And ESI was seen as, well, just a very good person (kind, considerate, skilled in Si things, hospitable, very good with children - that part particularly impressed ILE). So they've made firends and saw each other quite often but then trouble gradually began. ESI didn't have a job she deserved, so we, two intuitive feeling people, told her that she deserves so much better, she's actually very good and should get a better pay, etc. We thought to inspire and never knew that we only kindled her insecurity with all that talk. And this happened time after time. She would visit and tell us about her problems (mostly money-related, obviously seeking Te advice) and we would start: "Helen, you're so good at this, you underestimate yourself, be a little bolder, let's start looking for a new job, let's write a CV and post it now..." Well, we didn't know much of socionics then I don't know how the poor girl persevered with us, and we did quarrel a little bit and once we quarreled a lot over kids (the proper way to bring up kids), but we are still friends. ILE tries to bite his tongue whenever he's inspired to "show her the bright possibilities", ESI stopped telling him that suits really suit him (he hates suits!) and that he should dress as a bank clerk, we've basically come to terms All it takes is a lot of good will on both sides and a lot of time.
    Yes I agree that conflict comes out when kids arrive. ESE and ILI conflict relations quarrel a lot too over what information should be transferred down to their children and ESE is often baffled by the wife's emotional guilting the kids to do traditional things and things that don't make them happy on an individual level. You've also provided a good example about the support aspect of conflict relations that make them so attractive initially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Yes I agree that conflict comes out when kids arrive. ESE and ILI conflict relations quarrel a lot too over what information should be transferred down to their children and ESE is often baffled by the wife's emotional guilting the kids to do traditional things and things that don't make them happy on an individual level. You've also provided a good example about the support aspect of conflict relations that make them so attractive initially.
    Well, that's one type of marriage that I could never recommend - a conflict marriage! Revision (or is it control in English?) is difficult enough Have you winessed such a marriage between an ESE and ILI? I don't know many ILI (and none of those I know are female) so I'm not sure why would an ILI condition her kids to follow the rules and traditions? Sticking to the values of the third quadra?
    It's unfortunate that conflicting partners are so attractive at first

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    revision => supervision in English afaik
    Reason is a whore.

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    I've been lectured by Fi doms numerous times. I've always come across as innocent and nice and I really don't mean harm or ill will. It is my perceptions and people misunderstanding them that can be a source of conflict. For example, in the 4th grade I learned that I had an uncle who had HIV. I also learned in 4th grad that HIV attacks the T-cells of the immune system. I had a very difficult time accepting that my uncle was going to die. I ended up drawing a picture of some sort of monster dressed in military combat gear(labelled HIV) firing bullets at T-cells, killing them. This girl asked to see my drawings and once she saw this one she told me sternly that it wasn't funny. It did embarrass me a little, but she misunderstood. Situations like this tend to happen to me from time to time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeyeva View Post
    Well, I can give you another story of a conflict relationship between an ILE (my husband) and an ESI (our friend). They've known each other almost as long as we've been married, our elder kids are of the same age, etc. So this is a long standing relationship but it had its ups and downs. When they first met they were quite attracted to each other (typical, ah?). ESI saw that ILE was kind, caring, attentive, but also inventive and basically fun. And ESI was seen as, well, just a very good person (kind, considerate, skilled in Si things, hospitable, very good with children - that part particularly impressed ILE). So they've made firends and saw each other quite often but then trouble gradually began. ESI didn't have a job she deserved, so we, two intuitive feeling people, told her that she deserves so much better, she's actually very good and should get a better pay, etc. We thought to inspire and never knew that we only kindled her insecurity with all that talk. And this happened time after time. She would visit and tell us about her problems (mostly money-related, obviously seeking Te advice) and we would start: "Helen, you're so good at this, you underestimate yourself, be a little bolder, let's start looking for a new job, let's write a CV and post it now..." Well, we didn't know much of socionics then I don't know how the poor girl persevered with us, and we did quarrel a little bit and once we quarreled a lot over kids (the proper way to bring up kids), but we are still friends. ILE tries to bite his tongue whenever he's inspired to "show her the bright possibilities", ESI stopped telling him that suits really suit him (he hates suits!) and that he should dress as a bank clerk, we've basically come to terms All it takes is a lot of good will on both sides and a lot of time.
    Lol, good story. I've been fooled by belligerent EIEs pretending to be ILEs (is this common in Russia? It's so common where I'm from, alpha NT-ness is weirdly idolized) so that I really didn't like ILEs for the longest time. But a *genuine* ILE popped into my life recently, and they really are harmless and they try not to be offensive if someone tells them about it. Poor things, the Fi-polr just makes me feel for them. Of course I'm not ESI and I enjoy my Fe-creative meeting their Ti-creative. And I'm very curious to know about your experience of being a supervisor to ILE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maithili View Post
    Lol, good story. I've been fooled by belligerent EIEs pretending to be ILEs (is this common in Russia? It's so common where I'm from, alpha NT-ness is weirdly idolized) so that I really didn't like ILEs for the longest time. But a *genuine* ILE popped into my life recently, and they really are harmless and they try not to be offensive if someone tells them about it. Poor things, the Fi-polr just makes me feel for them. Of course I'm not ESI and I enjoy my Fe-creative meeting their Ti-creative. And I'm very curious to know about your experience of being a supervisor to ILE.
    Thank you for the comment My experience of being a supervisor to my husband... well, it's a long story, I don't know if I can fit it into a post. We started with a lot of supervision from my side. I knew that basically he's a very good person, kind, thoughtful, etc, and we share the same values (generally speaking, not in the socionics sense of the word). But some of his actions or words would just shock me and then I would either try and teach him proper behaviour or I would start thinking "who's this person? do I really know him? have I made a HUGE mistake?" It took a lot of time and a lot of talk to overcome that. We discussed everything, we talked and talked and talked. Often we would discuss a "problem" deep into the night. But this worked. We are lucky that we can make each other understand. We don't need that much talk now, if any at all Now we understand each other without words.
    As for EIEs pretending to be ILEs... Here in Russia it's an established idea that many more people THINK they are ILEs than really ARE that type. Somehow it's very popular. Can't figure why A lot of self-typed ILEs later turn out to be other types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeyeva View Post
    Well, that's one type of marriage that I could never recommend - a conflict marriage! Revision (or is it control in English?) is difficult enough Have you winessed such a marriage between an ESE and ILI? I don't know many ILI (and none of those I know are female) so I'm not sure why would an ILI condition her kids to follow the rules and traditions? Sticking to the values of the third quadra?
    It's unfortunate that conflicting partners are so attractive at first
    Well the ILI says it's selfish for her daughter to not have kids while the ESE says that choice is up to her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeyeva View Post
    Here in Russia it's an established idea that many more people THINK they are ILEs than really ARE that type. Somehow it's very popular. Can't figure why A lot of self-typed ILEs later turn out to be other types.
    Oh wow this just reminded me of a South Korean gentleman. When I met him (through another Korean friend, I was staying there at the time) he immediately introduced himself with his name followed by "ENTP." After half a minute or so I surmised that he was an EIE

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    It is baffling to me how conflictors actually marry? Aren't those things actually observable? At least I'm confident at how certain things might carry on in the future. Few signs here there are popping up constantly. With SEEs, that is somewhat different story but we go on our own ways sometimes mocking at each other.

    Yes, I have seen some ESIs actually admiring me in some way from a distance but communication seems to rub us in a wrong way. It depends though on the individual some have hard time on my connective jokes and they laugh with some nervousness (can't be good). Some of them even try to manipulate me (and you can see it far away but I brush it off. Although there is huge temptation to play with devil's advocacy). Yes, they are good at some things i truly suck at. Anyways as suggested above if it does not clear up introduce some references for example from the third Reich and see how it goes. One ESI got really got surprised seeing gay ****** wallpaper on her screen. She was furious. Play with future scenarios involving non serious conspiracies etc. You'll will tease their ESInesss apart from fake SEiness in that way.
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 10-25-2015 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    It is baffling to me how conflictors actually marry? Aren't those things actually observable? At least I'm confident at how certain things might carry on in the future. Few signs here there are popping up constantly. With SEEs, that is somewhat different story but we go on our own ways sometimes mocking at each other.

    Yes, I have seen some ESIs actually admiring me in some way from a distance but communication seems to rub us in a wrong way. It depends though on the individual some have hard time on my connective jokes and they laugh with some nervousness (can't be good). Some of them even try to manipulate me (and you can see it far away but I brush it off. Although there is huge temptation to play with devil's advocacy). Yes, they are good at some things i truly suck at.
    No they are not. Conflict types look very desirable and appealing at first because of their mannerisms. If one is not used to a dual a dual looks too unpleasant harsh sometimes not at all what they expected. For myself I know that I can come off unpeaceful direct not soft and supportive. I can come off as strict exacting and rigid. In reality I can be that way to a human being as in A individual thus I come out wrong. The closer a person gets or the less stressful my life is the other me comes out. The sweetheart who demonstrates helpfulness, the caring friend, the person who will not participate in a conflict, the person who will help someone else not get upset and hold vengeful thoughts. I am also a slave to my feelings. Catch me in the wrong time and you won't see the humanist. Catch me at the right and you won't think anything otherwise. Ahhh
    I think Fe ego types like IEI are more soft and consistent looking. I'm very soft the exterior is influenced sometimes by sadness and anger of moments. My recent episode is largely due to how frustrating my father's conditions have become and how helpless we feel. I'm angry because I had to deal with doctors who wouldn't cut his leg fast thus causing him to feel so much pain. The more pain he feels the more my empathy gets on that ride and the less I can detach and shake away from static states.

    I'm sorry for everyone around me who has to endure it. People understand when they know me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    It is baffling to me how conflictors actually marry? Aren't those things actually observable?
    Well, my cousin is married to his conflictor and its living hell (( And my cousin is a feeling type, so he should know more about people and relationships, right? So yes, it does happen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muddytextures View Post
    In case anyone still has any doubts of whether or not I'm ILE, I've got a very good example of possible conflict with ESIs back when I was in 8th grade.
    Conflict relations aren't that one-sided. Usually conflictors can see each other's PoLRs, so if you were ILE you would be able to see and critique ESI's +Ne PoLR as much as they can see your -Fi PoLR. On russian-speaking socionics forums, ILEs describe +Ne PoLR of their conflictor ESI as "backing out" no matter how much the ILE tries to inspire the ESI to "fulfill their dreams". This post link could also be an example of how the ILE sees ESI +Ne PoLR: as ESI being too "unprogressive", too stuck in their own backwards views, and, at simultaneously stubbornly unwilling to adapt and change their outlook.


    The below was taken from observation of conflicting realtions - http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...t_observations


    Surik (IEI): From a distance ILEs may mistake ESIs for their duals - introverted types with strong ethics and sensing. However, the ESI doesn't apply her ethics in the same way as does the SEI. The SEI manages ILE's ethics by directing the conversation, changing its course if needed, and influencing ILE's own internal states. The ESI instead tries to pull back the ILE, points to his mistakes. However, being a rather creative type the ILE is intolerant of any kinds of restrictions, limitations, and headstrong pressure. He responds to ESI's directives with protests, and this further exacerbates the situation. While SEI listens to and trusts ILE's logical and intuitive advice, to the ESI, due to rationality, it seems like the ILE is pulling her towards something rash and risky. Thus ILE's advice makes the ESI feel distrustful and hold back, and only further reminds the ESI of her own vulnerabilities.

    Litus (ILI): I have before my eyes such couple, ESI wife and her ILE husband. They are very different. It must be difficult for them: each behaves as if the other must guess their needs, desires, and phobias. Sometimes they fight, even wanted to divorce ... but are still together. Maybe because of the children. He is a real intellectual turbogenerator. She is a realist and a romantic with a winged heart. He's always involved in new ideas and projects, reads a book a day, loves being in warm and loud company of friends, who in turn love and appreciate him. Thus, he's always occupied by something. She pulls everything on her shoulders - it must be said that ESI's capacity for doing work and for self-sacrifice are admirable. But what is notable of her, is that with all ESI's desire and ability to keep the house in order, she poorly tolerates it when she is driven to cooking pans and laundry - especially with hints and examples of the type: "So-and-so colleague's wife is a such a great cook. She baked a wonderful cake that he shared at work today." Occasionally, her ILE husband takes up domestic tasks and chores with great enthusiasm. He reads through a lot of literature, consults with specialists, starts on some task and then abandons it in the middle. The ESI is shocked. To this day this surprises her. In a company of friends she doesn't feel at ease with him: he sparks a conversation, becomes absorbed, while she spends the whole evening without attention as if she doesn't exist. The ILE is surprised by this - if she got tired of listening to a conversation about networks she could have went and made a salad. In addition, in a company the ILE can make many promises without noticing. The ESI, with her exaggerated sense of responsibility, feels maddened by this: he promised - but he didn't do! The ILE doesn't understand: to whom, where, and how he has made any promises. All he said is that he has such opportunity - but this is a very different matter! The ESI begins to explain why he shouldn't do this, fails to convince him, tries to pressure him - as a result another fight. What else is noticeable to me as an outside observer? The ILE needs to be taken care of - but he takes all care for granted - which annoys his ESI wife. If she likes a person, she knows what that person needs - but to be always cooing around her husband is probably not for ESI. There are also disagreements over children. The ESI is a loving parent, but also strict and fair. Her children are provided for with everything, but she doesn't tolerate laziness, capriciousness, self-indulgence, cruelty, and nips such attitudes at their bud. The ILE seemingly agrees, but sees all of this from another side. It often happens that the father is good, while the mother - not so good. With father it is interesting, fun, and entertaining - while the mother demands, forces to do homework and chores, to keep the room clean. Fortunately, the ILE easily forgives and becomes cheerful again, while the ESI has an incredible supply of strength, stamina, and patience. Both of them have a developed sense of duty towards their children, thus they continue to live together and compromise.

    Emerald (ILE): From Stratiyevskaya's description of these conflict relations, a lot has overlapped my relationship with my ex (a fairly obvious ESI). He was always hectoring me that I lack in self-control, that I'm not understanding of people, and that I don't wish to change, and that I have to act "ethically" towards him i.e. politely and adequately, as "normal people" act. The most important thing for him were his principles, that never changed from any influence, even though he would end up tormenting himself and others - because he is a saint with a halo, the Only Person, and others are rabble, and let them live as they wish since they are "like that". I've also tried to improve his self-esteem, show him chances for changing his life for the better, invent new ways for him, show him ways out of his difficulties, compliment him, and it was all true - that he is so good-looking, that he is such a good person, and so on. But still he didn't want to get out of his swamp. My temper found no understanding with him, neither did he spare my nerves, and considered me to be almost the most insufferable creature in all his life. We even broke up on the ground of "opportunities" - in brief, I organized a trip for him. He was in doubt about this trip. He told me that in his heart he dreamed of going but was too afraid that nothing good will come out of the venture. So I took the matters in my own hands and arranged everything for him - I pushed him towards his dream. Because he told me this was his dream, I thought he will appreciate this ... but he stunned me with his reaction. First, he became hysterical and started to accuse me that I'm impossible, that every time I throw something new not taking him into consideration, and that I don't wish to change. I was most surprised when I heard him say: "You paved the road yourself - now you're the only one responsible for whatever comes out of this." I thought it was unmanly for him to try to shift responsibility for his future actions instead of being happy that his dream was coming true.

     

    Adam (ILE): At work I have a colleague - he is the head of the prepress department, by TIM - ESI. We're conflictors in Socionics ... hell, I could already feel this from the first day of work. To my deep regret, we have to work very closely, or rather, I pass on project assignments to him and receive already finished layouts. Frictions started from the very beginning - he seemed to be a total bore, who's always finds faults with minor things and is only looking for excuses to quarrel, and that he doesn't understand very simple things and will ask such stupid questions. At the same time, I saw that he was a specialist in his field, and his amazing attentiveness to specifics (introverted sensing type, after all) has saved me on many occasions. But after every meeting, I would leave the room steaming with frustration and anger. I couldn't understand what exactly irritated him, and wrote it off to him having a difficult personality. For three years I've agonized like this. A year ago I started studying Socionics, and, naturally, started typing everyone I knew. When the turn came to him - damn, he's an ESI, a typical one - everything fits! So where does all the friction come from? Simple: when I explain things to him in my usual ILE manner, skipping some seemingly obvious things and saving a lot for the later saying "We'll see how it goes" all of this hits his "vulnerable" function. Next, I thought: what can be done about this? what is his suggestive function? It's "logic of actions", Te. Ok, even though this is my subconscious function, lets try something different. At the next meeting, for which I carefully prepared, I turned into a tedious bore myself. I went through every little detail, describing it, while slowing down the rate of my speech 2-3 times for my ESI colleague (from my end, this felt like a perversion of some kind). Eventually, I notice a satisfied expression on his face, and even some kind of tranquility there. Wow! I finished my speech, he graciously shook his head, from which I understood that I have finally found the least painful way of transferring information to him. From that time on, I prepare for each meeting as if I'm studying for an exam.
    One more small thing to mention - hurrying him up is useless. I mean volitionally pressuring him. He would simply "clash his horns" with you, even start shouting (volitional extraverted sensing), and from there nothing could be done. Ok, l have tried a different approach. Now, with a serious expression on my face, I tell him: "All hopes rest on you now. The client has asked the layout to be finished by 3:00pm tomorrow. Please pay special attention to this project. Thank you in advance." Of course, me may mutter something critical about the client, but this doesn't concern me - I leave with a clear conscience and with certainty that he will do everything possible to make it on time. This is all.

    Lytov: I can give brief recommendations for ILEs on how to get along with ESIs. ESI is a sensing type and judges people by "appearance" i.e. the externals. To calm the ESI, create a stable reputation, your own "legend", and periodically demonstrate its success. For example: "I know how to do this-and-this. I consider this to be my calling and I achieve significant success at what I do." Success, attainment of some concrete results - are the most important criteria for the ESI and their suggestive function. However, if the ESI doesn't see any tangible results coming out of your activities, then he or she will start feeling nervous. Thus create an image of a successful person pursuing some tangible goal. Don't try to explain everything to ESIs with introverted logic. They react to it as negatively as Ne types react to any sensory impositions and pressuring. ESIs absorb logic in moderate amounts, in form of explanations of "how it works". Regarding everything else, the ESI reacts to a person positively if he or she a) acts predictably for the ESI b) is so influential, that he can himself direct this predictability, or at least create and impression that everything is under control, and share a part of this predictable world with the ESI. That's it. So what's so difficult here? The difficulty here is that an ILE possesses a large amount of knowledge, several times higher than what an ILE is actually able to control. This leads to conflicts only at very short personal distances. Most usually, the ESI watches the ILE from afar and thinks to him or herself: "Just as I thought - he's a windbag", and doesn't move any closer than this. The ESI may casually talk with the ILE, exchange some jokes and anecdotes, but won't get any more serious.
    In a professional sense within a closed group, the goals of ILE and ESI are sufficiently different. The ESI doesn't hesitate to openly talk about why such-and-such "tasty" project was given to someone else and not to the ESI. The worst the ILE can say here (which he usually does) is to say something akin "it was done in all fairness" or "for everyone equal treatment". The ESI has a completely different sense of what is fair - if he has invested the efforts, there should be some benefit, some positive result. If this is what he sees happening around him, the ESI will be a good worker. If the ESI sees that people who are "less deserving" in his eyes are getting promoted - he will actively oppose this, if he has powers - then formally, if he doesn't have powers - then informally, through private conversations i.e. try to prepare the ground, because sooner or later the balance of power may change. The ILE thinking about the project can completely forget about personnel and relations - the ESI never forgets this.

    Artebast (ILE): I'm very familiar with only one person of type ESI - that is my mother. I won't describe our relationship here, as relations mother-daughter are responsible for a large share of our relational complexities rather than our Socionics TIMs. On the whole, for the ILE having an ESI mother is not the worst situation - there is some support over weak functions, plus ESIs are usually caring people, such that I didn't feel lacking in love and care as a child. Now we have a rather smooth relationship, but at a large distance. There is no question, of course, about any kind of personal understanding and closeness. There is my attitude "mother cannot be abandoned" and respect - this is how we keep together.
    As a distance, ESIs make a good impression. These are people who seem to be "as is needed and appropriate", that is, they evoke the thought "this is how a woman or a man should be". Everything in their life is conducted correctly, with integrity, and without excess. They are just the right measure sociable, and just the right measure beautiful. In past, I've had several opportunities to begin relationships with ESIs, but due to painful Fi and a sense of psychological discomfort I soon feel that I cannot open up with this person - that I won't be accepted as I am, that we're on "different frequencies". Communication with ESI is full of small talk - there is a list of acceptable conversation topics, and as soon as you step a little bit beyond this, the other is shocked: "what is he/she talking about?!" Thus, our communication turns out to be empty.
    I have also worked with a few ESIs - as teachers, scientific director, and the head of our department. In all cases I did all the work myself, after specifying with the ESI what result is needed, which in itself is not easy because they are not keen on explaining anything. Here, the main thing is to not talk about the process of how you're working, but to show ESI the result. And again - keep all communication on formal level.
    A few words for why ILEs shouldn't try to build serious relations with ESIs:
    ** If living together, the element of surprise is completely lost from ILE's life. Arranging pleasant surprises for the ESI doesn't work - she gets scared, and even if she liked the surprise the first reaction is such that there is no wish to ever surprise her again. If the ILE wants to travel with or without the ESI to some new place, a huge amount of time is spent on explaining that "it's not dangerous". Any initiative is extinguished by a frightened look: "why do you need this?" This is a disaster for irrational ILE for whom life consists of finding good chances and opportunities and opening new horizons. Turning his own life into a swamp, even if a stable one, is not an option.
    ** Cheerfulness. There is a feeling that ESIs are afraid to enjoy life. They think that once they relax even a little and show some weakness, the villain-fate will immediately trip them over. "Everything is too good - expect trouble." ESIs prefer to be always alert and apprehensive about something. As a result, it never happens that the ESI is fully satisfied; he/she will always point out some negative - as a "preventative measure".
    ** How ESIs like to pose themselves as victims is entirely another story. This goes according to the principle: "I will suffer in silence for now, but when it becomes unbearable I will tell him everything - let him feel guilty!" This results in something akin to "You're entertaining yourself here - and I've been sick for a week!" Their partner had to guess. While all these various kind of sufferings aren't needed in Alpha quadra (and it would be interesting to know who needs them!) And if the ESI is enjoying herself, it's often done quietly, to herself. This makes the ILE doubt whether he or she is needed at all. The ILE expresses these doubts out loud - and receives a lecture about sense of duty. It turns out we were living together not because we "wanted" this, but because "it is necessary". Wonderful.
    ** And another point. With ESI's involvement, ILE's circle of friends starts to rapidly shrink, because the ESI carefully filters out "wrong kind" of friends. But the ILE is not the LIE, and is capable of filtering people himself. The ILE has to strain over ethical functions to establish new friendships - here the ESI is of no help, as she filters out people, but doesn't introduce anyone new in their place - usually her own circle of friends is very small. The ILE instead needs someone who would find contacts for him. Here again we have a swamp.
    In general, these two types can have good casual friendly relations. They could even be good colleagues and work together given some effort from the ILE, but starting a family together categorically should not be considered, imho. For casual friendships TIM is not very important, thus "conflictors" may socialize in the same circle of people. The problem is that neither is oriented at expansion of their social circle (or rather, ESI isn't oriented at this - while ILE doesn't know how). I, for example, can meet up with people whom I barely know and go out to some cafe. The ESI meets this with hostility: "Why are you wasting your time on him? Who is he to you?" And also tries to figure out how a person is useful. If it turns out that with nothing, ESI's disturbance has no limit. The ESI needs tight, trusting relationships within a narrow circle of people, and no spreading out. While I don't understand what the problem is - for me, this feeds my Fe, and it's interesting to learn how other people live. What for ILE is only a conversation, for the ESI is already "a relationship" that needs to be carefully evaluated and built.

    Alen (SLI): I know a mother and daughter of types ESI and ILE, respectively. They fight almost every evening right before my eyes. The mother tries to push through - the daughter resists and clashes with her. To her mother's shouting she responds by becoming even more stubborn. The mother accuses her of not being loving, which in daughter evokes a strange kind of obstinacy. Yet, the ESI doesn't make any compliments herself, only carps and criticizes her. For example, the daughter isn't doing something that she doesn't want to do. For the ESI it's not important. It has to be done, therefore do it. There are no objective reasons to do what the ESI asks - both ILE and I (SLI) see this. But the ESI has her own rules and any violations are strictly punished. ESI starts to push for it. ILE resists. I explain to the ILE that she should try to compromise and do what her mother asks her to do. She agrees and meets ESI's demands. And guess what happens? Instead of quietly taking a step forward, praising her, giving some positive feedback, the ESI starts to reprimand her ILE daughter again, that she hasn't listened to her the first time and done it sooner. Conflict restarts. The ESI simply doesn't understand how she is messing up; she presses her own model of life and doesn't move an inch.

    Ivan (ILE): ESI - is pure evil. The essence of all nine circles of hell. Every word infuriates and every look incinerates. To sleep, eat, shit, screw with someone else's mind, and get more and more money - this is ESI's life. "I have lived my life and will live out yours" - this is the philosophy of Dreiser. The tale of "The Fisherman and the Golden Fish" is the most accurate description of this type; however much money you give them - it's never enough. They should be sent to inhabit a separate planet along with LIEs. My type is ILE, but thanks to my ESI mother, I've become more alike an LII. Because the only way to live next to Dreiser is to become a robot. And even then, you'll get billed for electricity and oil. ESI's overprotection is worse than getting no care at all. From my ESI mother I often hear: "Where have you been? Why did you come home so late? You're out entertaining yourself, while I'm sitting here, worrying." Next to ESIs people don't live - they merely exist on ESI's conditions. Until 15-16 years of age this is fine, but later such questions begin to infuriate. And to call ESIs "sweet and caring," despite the fact that ESIs are "aggressors", is stupid. I would have nicknamed this type not "The Guardian" but "The Inquisitor" ...
    The ILE is sent to get education where his ESI mother wants him to go - after all, the mother knows better what her children need than the children know themselves. Of course, every child dreams of working at a factory until the end of his life and supporting his parents on a meager wage. A person with IQ near 130 - for certain! "What did you think? Everyone lives like this! Everyone!" therefore you should go and get a job "like everyone else". This "like everyone else" has followed me for the rest of my life. If you protest such treatment, there is always the response: "But I do so much for you, try hard and work so much!" No, you don't do it for us - you do it for yourself. The ESI thinks that she is doing something for others, but instead she is acting out of sheer selfishness and only pretends to help others. You cannot do something for the good of the person, without asking his or her opinion on the matter. With ESI - you just get put before the fact. Now only try doing something wrong - the reproaches and the piercing-black trampling reprimanding gaze will pursue you for weeks. This is not including the scandals and hysterics.
    The ESI thinks that I am a 100% slacker who spends entire day on the internet, when men should spend 18 hours at work every day and come back home only to catch some sleep - this is her logic. A couple times I have tried to follow her advice and apply where she suggested. Twice the offer turned out to be a hoax, since she cannot distinguish a real job offer from a rip-off. Though her dual Jack, however, will take up such junk. When I got a job, the conditions were horrible. All of my attempts to change something were in vain. Things got to regular nosebleeds and headaches, not to mention frequent injuries due to my natural absent-mindedness. But this doesn't worry the ESI - "You've finally found a normal job - now don't even think about quitting!" All of my attempts to explain our differences to her with the aid of Socionics are met with: "Again, you're pestering me with this nonsense?" She doesn't understand that people have other values ​​in life, and that not everyone lives on her templates and stereotype. To me it seems that she doesn't understand anything - and doesn't want to understand. My results and achievements in life would have been much greater without her control and her attempts to instill her views into me. I wanted to study computer science, but she told me: "You just want to sit in front of your computer your whole life! Go and learn how to build rockets to get a job at the local military factory, and you'll turn out into a normal person." Sometimes I want to curse, but hold myself back - she's my mother after all. Moving out is an impossibility at this point, thus I live with her as if in a high-security prison. Only ILI and LIE are able to live with an ESI - the former has no will, the later lives at work. The funny thing is that at age 21, I already had a "midlife crisis". It seemed to me that I'm already at least 35 years old, and I was greatly upset because of all of the missed opportunities. Indeed, there was a great number of these. I could have studied not in a secondary school, but in a specialized school with deepened subjects of mathematics or physics. Then go into science, and by age 22 already have a degree and do research. But no, "live like normal people" they said. Work at stupid jobs, drink beer, buy a car, like your father - why the hell do I need a car if I'm still bumping into furniture (scateredness is a constant companion of an intuitive type).
    Dreiser is an "introverted Caesar". If she considers some space to be "her territory" then everyone who lives in it have to live by her rules and regulations, whether they like it or not. In the type descriptions it clearly says: "[ESIs] don't adapt themselves to people, but impose their own line of conduct". In other words, they don't at all consider someone else's opinion, and there is no sense in trying to argue or to challenge them. I can tell you with 100% confidence that at least 60% of the Criminal Code was created for people like LIE (another 25% for SLEs) by people like Dreiser. For most people the "10 Commandments" are enough to live their lives, but not for Jacks and Dreisers. The Alpha quadra has a developed sense of justice (it is justice, not miserly selfish rules of Dreiser). Beta over-bends the stick somewhat, but even SLEs with their temper don't deliberately cause discomfort to other people. Delta - is the most "correct" responsible quadra. Gamma is quadra of charlatans (Jack) and dictators (Dreiser). About SEEs and ILIs I won't even continue. Studying Socionics and making personal observations, most people who come to dislike LIEs dislike them for their unscrupulousness. While ESIs go unnoticed - they sit at home more, and dictate only on their territory. LIE and ESI is that rare case when minus plus minus becomes a plus. Most often the couples ESI-LIE are perceived as "policeman-scoundrel" rather than "wife and husband".
    Her health is always getting worse, and I'm always to blame. I am to blame that I don't do as she wishes, I am to blame that she worries (even though I'm not 10 any more), I am to blame that my father is SEE (mirror types have regular quarrels). Her response is always the same: her son sucks, her husband is awful - she's so great but unappreciated, and without her we'll die of hunger within a week (most importantly!). Sometimes I wish I was never born. I just want to cross them out of my life, become that bastard child who has abandoned his parents. In this sense I envy LIEs - they can do this, I cannot. In these relations, the worst thing is that it's impossible to get any help and support, quite the reverse. This suppresses even more. Instead of heading towards your goals, the road to which is already very difficult, you also have a heavy weight strapped to you. This is like moving through a swamp carrying something heavy and useless on your shoulders. You can't throw it away, and the path is very long. It destroys your morale. Very often I go through periods of depression.
    Last edited by silke; 11-03-2016 at 06:18 AM. Reason: added link

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Conflict relations aren't that one-sided - usually conflictors can see each other's PoLRs, so if you were ILE you would see and critique ESI's +Ne PoLR as much as they could hone into your -Fi PoLR. On eastern socionics forums this usually shows itself as ILEs saying that the ESI seems to be "stuck in a rut" or "sitting in a swamp", to use the exact expression, and doesn't want to get out of it no matter how much the ILE tries to inspire and move them "towards their dreams". This brief response link could also be an example of how the ILE sees ESI +Ne PoLR as being too "unprogressive", too stuck in their own backwards views, and at the same time unwilling to adapt and change their outlook.
    It was about as one-sided as much as you would expect a principle-middle school student relationship to be. The very reason I did some of the things in the first place was to mock/retaliate against the rigid morality the school was enforcing. You see, at this school, we received all sorts sorts of stupid punishments for "inappropriate behavior" left and right. For example, more often then not at lunch the we (the entire grade) would get a lecture about how badly we were acting and we would have to sit in total silence for the entire duration of lunch. This began to piss me off so I started doing the things I mentioned above as a sort of mockery against the exaggerated morality the school kept trying to constantly jam inside our heads. Regardless of whether or not I am ILE this too me seems like a perfect example of the kind of things ILEs and ESIs would do to piss each other off.

  19. #19
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    lol i actually like ESI's... I don't think their Fi is as rigid as it looks, it's definitely harsher IMO (gamma) but they evaluate things on a case by case basis. also I got so used to feeling panicky in my past life where I worked with two LSE bosses that I really feel nothing but empathy for people who are receiving instructions in the wrong functions at work.

    honestly i know an ESI and ILE who are both E1 and they seem somewhat alike to me... they both have an intense facebook presence. the ESI evangelizes views such as "why are we not saving our environment...ppl are immature and don't care" and the ILE evangelizes views such as "why don't we create this new socialist system that would save the environment... everyone who disagrees is clearly stupid and can't think clearly."

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    Quote Originally Posted by sergeyeva View Post
    Thank you for the comment My experience of being a supervisor to my husband... well, it's a long story, I don't know if I can fit it into a post. We started with a lot of supervision from my side. I knew that basically he's a very good person, kind, thoughtful, etc, and we share the same values (generally speaking, not in the socionics sense of the word). But some of his actions or words would just shock me and then I would either try and teach him proper behaviour or I would start thinking "who's this person? do I really know him? have I made a HUGE mistake?" It took a lot of time and a lot of talk to overcome that. We discussed everything, we talked and talked and talked. Often we would discuss a "problem" deep into the night. But this worked. We are lucky that we can make each other understand. We don't need that much talk now, if any at all Now we understand each other without words.
    As for EIEs pretending to be ILEs... Here in Russia it's an established idea that many more people THINK they are ILEs than really ARE that type. Somehow it's very popular. Can't figure why A lot of self-typed ILEs later turn out to be other types.
    Thanks for the reply! Interesting to hear about ILE popularity in Russia...

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    I just thought of this example of ESI-ILE Conflict in action.



    Morrissey is the ESI, and the other guy who sits besides him is the ILE.

    It is really interesting to see how there is tension or awkwardness in the air between them.

    Morrissey obviously feels uncomfortable and doesn't take the ILE seriously.
    Last edited by Olimpia; 02-14-2017 at 04:18 PM.
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    I have ended up in very weird place with ESI.
    It is about being a working pair in one in a course.

    I try my best to keep out from their values stuff.
    Strongly religious person with huge presence. The funny thing is that there is LIE directing the course. It is actually quite funny to follow LIE's total submissiveness to his strong preaching. It is like LIE listens to him on his knees saying Amen after every word he says. It is supposed to be about science but now resembles some sort of religious congregation.

    I almost burst in laugh when he told something with unintended double meanings.
    He ask lots of Te assistance... I try to handle it.


    Cut the crap attitude is the most annoying thing. I have actually lashed out couple of times due to his totally linear ways and he has apparently lashed out in his home when he saw my writings (science which according to him went too wide and deep).

    Anyways he apparently regards me as OK person, I think as he wants to continue and give me bit more freedom. I find it overall bit stifling.
    Last edited by Troll Nr 007; 02-14-2017 at 10:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    I just thought of this example of ESI-ILE Conflict in action.



    Morrissey is the ESI, and the other guy who sits besides him is the ILE.

    It is really interesting to see how there is tension or awkwardness in the air between them.

    Morrissey obviously feels uncomfortable and doesn't take the ILE seriously.
    Excellent example.
    Morrissey looks uncomfortable in every interview. But clearly he isn't buying this guy. Almost textbook ESI. Se subtype you think? No "softness" to him, very blunt and stiff, everyone but he is relaxed and comfortable. He's polite but he winces the whole time because you can tell he doesn't quite understand people who are so expressive and feels it's shallow social tapestry small talk that he doesn't like. Very buttoned up and tense, you are bang on. He is struggling with having to "promote" his CD.
    I can read him easily, I am fluent in Fi awkwardness.
    Last edited by hatesyardwork; 03-09-2017 at 10:33 PM.

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    ILE: This is such a good idea and makes perfect sense. Let's have fun!!! Can someone make this comfortable?
    ESI: This is super wrong, I hate this, and you'll stop immediately. We'll run into trouble like this. Can someone execute this properly?

    In pictures:








    (Lmao they are the flawless embodiment of this intertype relationship)

  25. #25
    Nothing in the cage of my ribcage
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    Um... I'm pretty sure Morrissey is an EIE. I don't really see conflict, the other guy doesn't seem uncomfortable at all. Morrissey seems uncomfortable because the guy is talking about health and bodily related things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Stromberg
    Let's stop using this outdated measure - which has about as much scientific validity as your astrological sign.

  26. #26
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    (answering under the assumption that i'm esi)

    i feel like this has been dramatized for kicks. one of my closest friends at the moment is ile and when he pulls some wild triangulation shit i just respond with, "you know, that's a little weird, but okay." sometimes we talk ~8 hours a day, on and off, so it's a little hard to avoid conflict entirely, but it's usually resolved the following day. i don't know if we've just become accustomed to the feeling of wanting to tear out each other's throats or what, but it's not so bad. it has its ups and downs but doesn't everything? we'll probably get into another argument about one or both sides being a projection-filled nutjob with no real purpose beyond raining hell on earth, before easing into a conversation about music or taking a fun online test.
    awldjkwepierpgokqweølfqøerlkfdaergnhtm¨å¨æ''-we-fqpoeufasdøflthøljwtlhkjrøtlhhhhhhhhhhsapfoeporipr



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