EII and SEI morality

[Beautiful sky]

So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

This is their response:

A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

B. "Stealing is wrong period."

This is how I would respond

"What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."

[Aylen]

For me it depends on the situation and I guess I would judge it on a case by case basis. If they are stealing to stay alive it is different than stealing to buy crack. Some people can't see that there are options and for others there are no options. I can even see how people on drugs would steal because their minds were warped.

I imagine I would be more accepting of their actions if they were not stealing from me or those I care about. I have a lot of gray area on this since I have had people steal from me to buy drugs and I let them off the hook only to have them do it again.

[Beautiful sky]

For me it depends on the situation and I guess I would judge it on a case by case basis. If they are stealing to stay alive it is different than stealing to buy crack. Some people can't see that there are options and for others there are no options. I can even see how people on drugs would steal because their minds were warped.

I imagine I would be more accepting of their actions if they were not stealing from me or those I care about. I have a lot of gray area on this since I have had people steal from me to buy drugs and I let them off the hook only to have them do it again.

I can see how IEI seem so similar to EII based on what you are saying. So how does Fe work for you?

[Aylen]

I can see how IEI seem so similar to EII based on what you are saying. So how does Fe work for you?

Where I tend to use Fe, say in the situation of stealing, is to calm the people who are most riled up about it. I try to shift their attention from anger to seeing why the person might have stolen. I also use reasoning. I may even make jokes in the situation. Once I had a friend who would constantly steal my makeup, clothes and some cheap costume jewelry. My ex was livid and he didn't understand why I let her off the hook so many times. I would just make silly jokes about her needing makeup more than me or whatever would calm him down in the situation. Sometimes when we were out she would be wearing MY clothes. I would just say, "omg, I forgot I let you borrow that!. I need it right now so please take it off." Everyone would laugh because they knew she was a klepto. Also this was an inside joke because every time I caught her with my stuff she would say I let her borrow it so I used that to call her out.

In a serious situation I would not make light of it but I would do what I could to keep someone from hurting the alleged thief.

[Beautiful sky]

Where I tend to use Fe, say in the situation of stealing, is to calm the people who are most riled up about it. I try to shift their attention from anger to seeing why the person might have stolen. I also use reasoning. I may even make jokes in the situation. Once I had a friend who would constantly steal my makeup, clothes and some cheap costume jewelry. My ex was livid and he didn't understand why I let her off the hook so many times. I would just make silly jokes about her needing makeup more than me or whatever would calm him down in the situation. Sometimes when we were out she would be wearing MY clothes. I would just say, "omg, I forgot I let you borrow that!. I need it right now so please take it off." Everyone would laugh because they knew she was a klepto.

In a serious situation I would not make light of it but I would do what I could to keep someone from hurting the alleged thief.

I like your light hearted approach. In an angry situation instead of joking I state light hearted and kind facts like "I know it upsets you but he didn't do it to make you upset. He just needed something. "

[Aylen]

Edited for my sister.

[Sol]

Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

Fe describes "objective" emotions about an object.
But as symphathy is linked with moral behavior (morals themeselves are the derivative from what people like) and morals is a kind of social rules, they are important for Fi too.

A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

While there are more Fe types among thieves than among Fi types. Sure Fe type will say like above because it's important for image, and they don't care much about objective truth (Te value) and honesty.

"why to steal" also relates to Ne, not Fi only.

[Eliza Thomason]

For me it depends on the situation and I guess I would judge it on a case by case basis. If they are stealing to stay alive it is different than stealing to buy crack.....

Makes me think of the Les Miserables (love the Liam Neeson movie).

... I have a lot of gray area on this since I have had people steal from me to buy drugs and I let them off the hook only to have them do it again.

Omigoodness, you need your Dual to keep you safe!

[Beautiful sky]

Fe describes "objective" emotions about an object.
But as symphathy is linked with moral behavior (morals themeselves are the derivative from what people like) and morals is a kind of social rules, they are important for Fi too.



While there are more Fe types among thieves than among Fi types. Sure Fe type will say like above because it's important for image, and they don't care much about objective truth (Te value) and honesty.

"why to steal" also relates to Ne, not Fi only.

Did you type Sherlock Holmes yet?

[Aylen]

Makes me think of the Les Miserables (love the Liam Neeson movie).

Omigoodness, you need your Dual to keep you safe!

@Sol says he ate my dual (dragon).

[Beautiful sky]

Fe describes "objective" emotions about an object.
But as symphathy is linked with moral behavior (morals themeselves are the derivative from what people like) and morals is a kind of social rules, they are important for Fi too.



While there are more Fe types among thieves than among Fi types. Sure Fe type will say like above because it's important for image, and they don't care much about objective truth (Te value) and honesty.

"why to steal" also relates to Ne, not Fi only.

My morals are adjusted to personal circumstance. People's experience shapes their actions. ..before judging step in their shoes

[Eliza Thomason]

Where I tend to use Fe, say in the situation of stealing, is to calm the people who are most riled up about it. I try to shift their attention from anger to seeing why the person might have stolen. I also use reasoning. I may even make jokes in the situation. Once I had a friend who would constantly steal my makeup, clothes and some cheap costume jewelry. My ex was livid and he didn't understand why I let her off the hook so many times. I would just make silly jokes about her needing makeup more than me or whatever would calm him down in the situation. Sometimes when we were out she would be wearing MY clothes. I would just say, "omg, I forgot I let you borrow that!. I need it right now so please take it off." Everyone would laugh because they knew she was a klepto. Also this was an inside joke because every time I caught her with my stuff she would say I let her borrow it so I used that to call her out.

In a serious situation I would not make light of it but I would do what I could to keep someone from hurting the alleged thief.

Aw, that's very charitable.

Maybe this is a Beta thing. My SLE son, in high school, had a friend who I was sure occasionally stole from him (i.e., money he left out when the friend was over). (Also he would break things occasionally. Like the nice light-up key board on our computer my son found at a yard sale. I liked that useful keyboard. No surprise at all it that broke when my son's friend was over! But my son refused my implication his friend did it on purpose). This disrespect for my son's things really bothered me (it felt like disrespect for my son). However, I was very restrained in what I said to my son (who often saw things differently than me). In this case, when I brought it up to my son, my son was VERY reluctant to accuse his friend. I do know the friend's much-married single-mom was not very able at providing (even on a low income you can provide well if you have the knack; but she didn't have it; and I'd have to say she was materially-neglectful with her boys*) while my son was well -provided for (between my knack, my indulgence, and his Dad and uncle's gernerous provision, he had what he wanted). So even though I could have pressed the point and showed my son how obvious it was, I let it go.

*(Once I picked up my son at 8pm on a school night and she was just putting out supper for her 3 (active!) boys. It was pancakes from a mix and a bottle of cheap syrup. That's it! And there wasn't enough. The boys were arguing over the pancakes! Because they were hungry!)

[Eliza Thomason]

@Sol says he ate my dual (dragon).

[The Exception]

So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

This is their response:

A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

B. "Stealing is wrong period."

This is how I would respond

"What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."

Responses A and B sound more like Fi valuing statement. Morality in Fe valuing is more context-based and situation dependent.

For me, in the general sense of the word, stealing is wrong but there could be an occasional situation where stealing would be warranted, even the right thing to do. For example, let's suppose your family member needed to get a life-saving medical treatment that was expensive. You don't have the money and the only way to get enough money in time is to steal it. I think stealing would be okay in this instance. Heck I think it might even be the morally right thing to do to if it's to save someone's life. Of course I'd try to pay back who I stole from in the future.

[The Reality Denialist]

There are usually other ways to get food but since I seem to be caregiver magnet and therefore I conclude being biased. It's weird that people have nose for that kind of thing.

The sanctions in SEI's case are going to be very mild even if there is harsh judgement.

Fi PoLR seems to be connected with absolutes. I might say not acceptable and let it pass and then take precautions if it continues to solve the problem with a funny twist. In case of property and money same measures would apply but I can not comprehend that kind of friendship if they are mature enough to understand the issue.

[Beautiful sky]

There are usually other ways to get food but since I seem to be caregiver magnet and therefore I conclude being biased. It's weird that people have nose for that kind of thing.

The sanctions in SEI's case are going to be very mild even if there is harsh judgement.

Fi PoLR seems to be connected with absolutes. I might say not acceptable and let it pass and then take precautions if it continues to solve the problem with a funny twist. In case of property and money same measures would apply but I can not comprehend that kind of friendship if they are mature enough to understand the issue.

Yes I agree the sanctions for family and friends will be mild I doubt the same will be true for a stranger

[Beautiful sky]

Aw, that's very charitable.

Maybe this is a Beta thing. My SLE son, in high school, had a friend who I was sure occasionally stole from him (i.e., money he left out when the friend was over). (Also he would break things occasionally. Like the nice light-up key board on our computer my son found at a yard sale. I liked that useful keyboard. No surprise at all it that broke when my son's friend was over! But my son refused my implication his friend did it on purpose). This disrespect for my son's things really bothered me (it felt like disrespect for my son). However, I was very restrained in what I said to my son (who often saw things differently than me). In this case, when I brought it up to my son, my son was VERY reluctant to accuse his friend. I do know the friend's much-married single-mom was not very able at providing (even on a low income you can provide well if you have the knack; but she didn't have it; and I'd have to say she was materially-neglectful with her boys*) while my son was well -provided for (between my knack, my indulgence, and his Dad and uncle's gernerous provision, he had what he wanted). So even though I could have pressed the point and showed my son how obvious it was, I let it go.

*(Once I picked up my son at 8pm on a school night and she was just putting out supper for her 3 (active!) boys. It was pancakes from a mix and a bottle of cheap syrup. That's it! And there wasn't enough. The boys were arguing over the pancakes! Because they were hungry!)

I heard that SLE make great food...Aylen will find an amazing SLE to cook for her

[ghost of forum past]

So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

This is their response:

A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

B. "Stealing is wrong period."

This is how I would respond

"What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."

I think your response is tinged with Fi and Ne both - SEIs especially tend to go with "what everyone else is doing" when it comes to passing judgments, though you get the sense that they're not confident in this. Their duals, after all, are ILEs - who are some of the most "unethical" people you Fi types will meet. But Ne in ILEs (and other Ne-egos) is good at providing perspective in situations for the SEI.

Thus, I think that your response is what any Ne-ego type would do for a Si-ego type. What you describe is a trait I've noticed in some Alpha SFs. For example, I know an ESE who needs perspective on other related things, such as mental disorder/incapacitation - she only considers that people with more pronounced difficulties "make her and the mood uncomfortable" without realizing that this isn't purposeful behavior - she needs someone to enhance her understanding behind these issues.

I also find it ironic that ESEs are said to help LIIs come off as more humane, but there are some situations, such as my example, in which the inverse applies.

[Beautiful sky]

I think your response is tinged with Fi and Ne both - SEIs especially tend to go with "what everyone else is doing" when it comes to passing judgments, though you get the sense that they're not confident in this. Their duals, after all, are ILEs - who are some of the most "unethical" people you Fi types will meet. But Ne in ILEs (and other Ne-egos) is good at providing perspective in situations for the SEI.

Thus, I think that your response is what any Ne-ego type would do for a Si-ego type. What you describe is a trait I've noticed in some Alpha SFs. For example, I know an ESE who needs perspective on other related things, such as mental disorder/incapacitation - she only considers that people with more pronounced difficulties "make her and the mood uncomfortable" without realizing that this isn't purposeful behavior - she needs someone to enhance her understanding behind these issues.

I also find it ironic that ESEs are said to help LIIs come off as more humane, but there are some situations, such as my example, in which the inverse applies.

many of the ese o know say things like what they would do if they were in charge such as killing certain kinds of people to try to make the world better. It's like they could care less when they express these feelings passions. Not analyzing what such a world would actually function like without all these people that they would kill. Emotional judgement and sudden expression can have absence of empathy and thoughtl

[Svanoushka]

I would have answered the same as you too. Trying to know the whys of people's actions before deciding what the behavior means.
I was once typed by a ENTP as a SEI and I couldn't get why exactly since Si doesn't seem to be my dominant function. Fi would fit more. Fi vs Fe is still bugging me some. I try to see how this
person could have noticed Si/Fe as my dominant functions. Maybe because I am an artist so the I**P temperament would fit me more in appearance to I**J temperament.
Not totally confident about my socionic type yet but Delta quadra seems to be the right one for me. ENFP could be but in comparison to other ENFPS I know, I am way more decisive on how I see things
and less into Ne as a dom function like they are. Still trying to conclude with what my type is. EII still makes sense.

[Sol]

Not totally confident about my socionic type

"Sociotype: I believe EII"

I want to believe too
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1096450

[Aylen]

many of the ese o know say things like what they would do if they were in charge such as killing certain kinds of people to try to make the world better. It's like they could care less when they express these feelings passions. Not analyzing what such a world would actually function like without all these people that they would kill. Emotional judgement and sudden expression can have absence of empathy and thoughtl

I didn't realize ESE were such a murderous minded bunch. I don't know an ESE who would think murdering people is a good way to make the world a better place. I guess I should be grateful for that.

Edit: Maybe we should rethink ******'s type.

[The Reality Denialist]

I would have answered the same as you too. Trying to know the whys of people's actions before deciding what the behavior means.
I was once typed by a ENTP as a SEI and I couldn't get why exactly since Si doesn't seem to be my dominant function. Fi would fit more. Fi vs Fe is still bugging me some. I try to see how this
person could have noticed Si/Fe as my dominant functions. Maybe because I am an artist so the I**P temperament would fit me more in appearance to I**J temperament.
Not totally confident about my socionic type yet but Delta quadra seems to be the right one for me. ENFP could be but in comparison to other ENFPS I know, I am way more decisive on how I see things
and less into Ne as a dom function like they are. Still trying to conclude with what my type is. EII still makes sense.

EII is a possibility.
Well, yes. ESI would think even more about personal circumstances which would drive me mad because it would totally make the external balance unjust. You should not do something in the first place if.. and If I was this I would not accept others' sympathies either if it affects that balance. In other words make a deal with a world, suffer or come up with something in which balance is not affected. As per personal destiny ... I consider it worthy of not really caring about if the external balance is not met.

[Not A Communist Shill]

When they tell me they want to burn things I do not condemn them, I ask them "Do you think it is artistically justified?" and "It feels good doesn't it?" (that is more of a rhetorical question).

[consentingadult]

So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

This is their response:

A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

B. "Stealing is wrong period."

This is how I would respond

"What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."

You are skipping one major question, which is: when does an act come down to stealing? An SEI taking pens or note blocs from work to home for personal use might not consider it as stealing, whereas an EII probably would. Ethical boundaries are much sharper defined in EIIs than in SEIs.

[Adam Strange]

You are skipping one major question, which is: when does an act come down to stealing? An SEI taking pens or note blocs from work to home for personal use might not consider it as stealing, whereas an EII probably would. Ethical boundaries are much sharper defined in EIIs than in SEIs.

Build a Better Life by Stealing Office Supplies:

https://www.amazon.com/Build-Better-.../dp/0836217578

The thing that makes this funny to an LIE is that it requires the same amount of effort as stealing big, but has no measurable payoff.

However, this is the kind of thinking that makes an ESI so essential to LIE's in the long run.

[Tallmo]

Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

Do you still think this?

[Not A Communist Shill]

It is wrong to stereotype , but not , , or "p types" based on what they they say or on their "p necks", or "black Americans" for the colour of their skin. I say this as a LIE.

[MrsTortilla]

I have a hard time believing that any modern person would say that stealing is just wrong, no matter the circumstances. When asked to discuss, my hunch is that almost all people regardless of type in modern society would tell you that if someone starving steals food this is much different from a lot of other kinds of stealing.

[Muddy]

To me it'd be all about who they are stealing from.

[golden]

How I feel about it if someone steals is one matter, and I can set it aside.

But I would sift through questions such as ...

* How do I secure my possessions from this person in future?

* What needs of theirs are not being met? Is there some agency or service that can help them?

* Is this a matter best handled through legal solutions--police, court of law?

* Can I maintain contact with this person, or is it better to cut them off?

So I would think about their motivations, but only insofar as I need to understand that in order to protect myself and to bring the situation into alignment with what is objectively right.

[Chthonic Daydream]

I am guilty of stealing Yu Gi Oh and Duel Masters cards in kindergarten. Sorry but I thought the graphics on them were so cool and I just had to have them.

[Aylen]

I am guilty of stealing Yu Gi Oh and Duel Masters cards in kindergarten. Sorry but I thought the graphics on them were so cool and I just had to have them.

For me it was a bottle of glue. I have no idea why and neither did my mom since we had glue at home. I only remember because they didn't let me forget. I don't have my own memory of it. lol Probably because I didn't speak fluent English yet and those memories are fuzzy. She made me go back in and give it back and apologize for stealing it.

[Rebelondeck]

EII and SEI morality can be identical but they usually get there from different approaches. SEIs are usually very vigilant about societal norms with respect to their own sense of belonging so tend to be followers adopting the ethos of those with whom they know that they must associate. EIIs are moralists in the sense that they tend to want everyone to adopt their personal values and ethos, and although they'll often go along, one can't consider them followers because they'll often try to convert others before they themselves will adopt something else. If stealing were deemed acceptable by EIIs, then it's been rationalized as part of their own grand scheme of things whereas SEIs tend to adapt ad hoc rather than protest - a survival tactic. SEIs tend to be more secretive and defensive about their conduct but usually everything is rooted in practicality; in contrast, EIIs tend to be preachy and self-righteous although they also usually know which side of the bread that the butter is on, but they tend to be overly idealistic - even when it's for 'bad'.

a.k.a. I/O

[The Reality Denialist]

Do you still think this?

Ti writes the rule book. Fe likes it. In concrete realm beta rationality.

[Not A Communist Shill]

Donald Trump = EII, not SEI.

Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

Trump knows what a person's reason is for creating a false narrative: to cause harm to our country.

What was the person's reason for creating a false narrative? Maybe we can all join in to help him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to lie to harm our country.

"We're glad it's over. It's 100% the way it should have been. I wish it could have gotten done sooner, a lot quicker. There are a lot of people out there who have done very, very evil things, very bad things, I would say treasonous things against our country. And hopefully people that have done such harm to our country -- we've gone through a period of really bad things happening -- those people will certainly be looked at. I have been looking at them for a long time, and I'm saying, why haven't they been looked at? They lied to Congress. Many of them, you know who they are. They've done so many evil things. I will tell you, I love this country. I love this country as much as I can love anything. My family, my country, my God. But what they did, it was a false narrative, it was a terrible thing. We can never let this happen to another president again. I can tell you that -- I say it very strongly. Very few people I know could have handled it. We can never, ever let this happen to another president again."

[Beautiful sky]

How I feel about it if someone steals is one matter, and I can set it aside.

But I would sift through questions such as ...

* How do I secure my possessions from this person in future?

* What needs of theirs are not being met? Is there some agency or service that can help them?

* Is this a matter best handled through legal solutions--police, court of law?

* Can I maintain contact with this person, or is it better to cut them off?

So I would think about their motivations, but only insofar as I need to understand that in order to protect myself and to bring the situation into alignment with what is objectively right.

Great post. I guess I’m not very objective

[golden]

Great post. I guess I’m not very objective

No one is entirely objective, but I am usually interested in understanding what is and isn't objective about my feelings and ideas. Objectivity is a goal.