Results 1 to 19 of 19

Thread: EII and SEI morality

  1. #1
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default EII and SEI morality

    So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
    Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

    I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

    This is their response:

    A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

    B. "Stealing is wrong period."

    This is how I would respond

    "What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."

  2. #2
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,888
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    For me it depends on the situation and I guess I would judge it on a case by case basis. If they are stealing to stay alive it is different than stealing to buy crack. Some people can't see that there are options and for others there are no options. I can even see how people on drugs would steal because their minds were warped.

    I imagine I would be more accepting of their actions if they were not stealing from me or those I care about. I have a lot of gray area on this since I have had people steal from me to buy drugs and I let them off the hook only to have them do it again.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  3. #3
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    For me it depends on the situation and I guess I would judge it on a case by case basis. If they are stealing to stay alive it is different than stealing to buy crack. Some people can't see that there are options and for others there are no options. I can even see how people on drugs would steal because their minds were warped.

    I imagine I would be more accepting of their actions if they were not stealing from me or those I care about. I have a lot of gray area on this since I have had people steal from me to buy drugs and I let them off the hook only to have them do it again.
    I can see how IEI seem so similar to EII based on what you are saying. So how does Fe work for you?

  4. #4
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,888
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I can see how IEI seem so similar to EII based on what you are saying. So how does Fe work for you?
    Where I tend to use Fe, say in the situation of stealing, is to calm the people who are most riled up about it. I try to shift their attention from anger to seeing why the person might have stolen. I also use reasoning. I may even make jokes in the situation. Once I had a friend who would constantly steal my makeup, clothes and some cheap costume jewelry. My ex was livid and he didn't understand why I let her off the hook so many times. I would just make silly jokes about her needing makeup more than me or whatever would calm him down in the situation. Sometimes when we were out she would be wearing MY clothes. I would just say, "omg, I forgot I let you borrow that!. I need it right now so please take it off." Everyone would laugh because they knew she was a klepto. Also this was an inside joke because every time I caught her with my stuff she would say I let her borrow it so I used that to call her out.

    In a serious situation I would not make light of it but I would do what I could to keep someone from hurting the alleged thief.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  5. #5
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Where I tend to use Fe, say in the situation of stealing, is to calm the people who are most riled up about it. I try to shift their attention from anger to seeing why the person might have stolen. I also use reasoning. I may even make jokes in the situation. Once I had a friend who would constantly steal my makeup, clothes and some cheap costume jewelry. My ex was livid and he didn't understand why I let her off the hook so many times. I would just make silly jokes about her needing makeup more than me or whatever would calm him down in the situation. Sometimes when we were out she would be wearing MY clothes. I would just say, "omg, I forgot I let you borrow that!. I need it right now so please take it off." Everyone would laugh because they knew she was a klepto.

    In a serious situation I would not make light of it but I would do what I could to keep someone from hurting the alleged thief.
    I like your light hearted approach. In an angry situation instead of joking I state light hearted and kind facts like "I know it upsets you but he didn't do it to make you upset. He just needed something. "

  6. #6
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,888
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Edited for my sister.
    Last edited by Aylen; 08-27-2015 at 06:07 PM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  7. #7

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,079
    Mentioned
    383 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.
    Fe describes "objective" emotions about an object.
    But as symphathy is linked with moral behavior (morals themeselves are the derivative from what people like) and morals is a kind of social rules, they are important for Fi too.

    A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"
    While there are more Fe types among thieves than among Fi types. Sure Fe type will say like above because it's important for image, and they don't care much about objective truth (Te value) and honesty.

    "why to steal" also relates to Ne, not Fi only.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  8. #8
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,520
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    For me it depends on the situation and I guess I would judge it on a case by case basis. If they are stealing to stay alive it is different than stealing to buy crack.....
    Makes me think of the Les Miserables (love the Liam Neeson movie).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    ... I have a lot of gray area on this since I have had people steal from me to buy drugs and I let them off the hook only to have them do it again.
    Omigoodness, you need your Dual to keep you safe!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  9. #9
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Fe describes "objective" emotions about an object.
    But as symphathy is linked with moral behavior (morals themeselves are the derivative from what people like) and morals is a kind of social rules, they are important for Fi too.



    While there are more Fe types among thieves than among Fi types. Sure Fe type will say like above because it's important for image, and they don't care much about objective truth (Te value) and honesty.

    "why to steal" also relates to Ne, not Fi only.
    Did you type Sherlock Holmes yet?

  10. #10
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,888
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Makes me think of the Les Miserables (love the Liam Neeson movie).

    Omigoodness, you need your Dual to keep you safe!
    @Sol says he ate my dual (dragon).

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  11. #11
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    Fe describes "objective" emotions about an object.
    But as symphathy is linked with moral behavior (morals themeselves are the derivative from what people like) and morals is a kind of social rules, they are important for Fi too.



    While there are more Fe types among thieves than among Fi types. Sure Fe type will say like above because it's important for image, and they don't care much about objective truth (Te value) and honesty.

    "why to steal" also relates to Ne, not Fi only.
    My morals are adjusted to personal circumstance. People's experience shapes their actions. ..before judging step in their shoes

  12. #12
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,520
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Where I tend to use Fe, say in the situation of stealing, is to calm the people who are most riled up about it. I try to shift their attention from anger to seeing why the person might have stolen. I also use reasoning. I may even make jokes in the situation. Once I had a friend who would constantly steal my makeup, clothes and some cheap costume jewelry. My ex was livid and he didn't understand why I let her off the hook so many times. I would just make silly jokes about her needing makeup more than me or whatever would calm him down in the situation. Sometimes when we were out she would be wearing MY clothes. I would just say, "omg, I forgot I let you borrow that!. I need it right now so please take it off." Everyone would laugh because they knew she was a klepto. Also this was an inside joke because every time I caught her with my stuff she would say I let her borrow it so I used that to call her out.

    In a serious situation I would not make light of it but I would do what I could to keep someone from hurting the alleged thief.
    Aw, that's very charitable.

    Maybe this is a Beta thing. My SLE son, in high school, had a friend who I was sure occasionally stole from him (i.e., money he left out when the friend was over). (Also he would break things occasionally. Like the nice light-up key board on our computer my son found at a yard sale. I liked that useful keyboard. No surprise at all it that broke when my son's friend was over! But my son refused my implication his friend did it on purpose). This disrespect for my son's things really bothered me (it felt like disrespect for my son). However, I was very restrained in what I said to my son (who often saw things differently than me). In this case, when I brought it up to my son, my son was VERY reluctant to accuse his friend. I do know the friend's much-married single-mom was not very able at providing (even on a low income you can provide well if you have the knack; but she didn't have it; and I'd have to say she was materially-neglectful with her boys*) while my son was well -provided for (between my knack, my indulgence, and his Dad and uncle's gernerous provision, he had what he wanted). So even though I could have pressed the point and showed my son how obvious it was, I let it go.

    *(Once I picked up my son at 8pm on a school night and she was just putting out supper for her 3 (active!) boys. It was pancakes from a mix and a bottle of cheap syrup. That's it! And there wasn't enough. The boys were arguing over the pancakes! Because they were hungry!)
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  13. #13
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,520
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    @Sol says he ate my dual (dragon).
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  14. #14
    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    my own personal bubble
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    4,108
    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
    Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

    I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

    This is their response:

    A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

    B. "Stealing is wrong period."

    This is how I would respond

    "What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."
    Responses A and B sound more like Fi valuing statement. Morality in Fe valuing is more context-based and situation dependent.

    For me, in the general sense of the word, stealing is wrong but there could be an occasional situation where stealing would be warranted, even the right thing to do. For example, let's suppose your family member needed to get a life-saving medical treatment that was expensive. You don't have the money and the only way to get enough money in time is to steal it. I think stealing would be okay in this instance. Heck I think it might even be the morally right thing to do to if it's to save someone's life. Of course I'd try to pay back who I stole from in the future.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  15. #15
    Word Definition Warrior – WDW Troll Nr 007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    dispersed into the cosmos
    TIM
    H-ILE-Ne 7w6-2w1-1w9
    Posts
    1,962
    Mentioned
    66 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    There are usually other ways to get food but since I seem to be caregiver magnet and therefore I conclude being biased. It's weird that people have nose for that kind of thing.

    The sanctions in SEI's case are going to be very mild even if there is harsh judgement.

    Fi PoLR seems to be connected with absolutes. I might say not acceptable and let it pass and then take precautions if it continues to solve the problem with a funny twist. In case of property and money same measures would apply but I can not comprehend that kind of friendship if they are mature enough to understand the issue.

  16. #16
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unsuccessfull Alphamale View Post
    There are usually other ways to get food but since I seem to be caregiver magnet and therefore I conclude being biased. It's weird that people have nose for that kind of thing.

    The sanctions in SEI's case are going to be very mild even if there is harsh judgement.

    Fi PoLR seems to be connected with absolutes. I might say not acceptable and let it pass and then take precautions if it continues to solve the problem with a funny twist. In case of property and money same measures would apply but I can not comprehend that kind of friendship if they are mature enough to understand the issue.
    Yes I agree the sanctions for family and friends will be mild I doubt the same will be true for a stranger

  17. #17
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Aw, that's very charitable.

    Maybe this is a Beta thing. My SLE son, in high school, had a friend who I was sure occasionally stole from him (i.e., money he left out when the friend was over). (Also he would break things occasionally. Like the nice light-up key board on our computer my son found at a yard sale. I liked that useful keyboard. No surprise at all it that broke when my son's friend was over! But my son refused my implication his friend did it on purpose). This disrespect for my son's things really bothered me (it felt like disrespect for my son). However, I was very restrained in what I said to my son (who often saw things differently than me). In this case, when I brought it up to my son, my son was VERY reluctant to accuse his friend. I do know the friend's much-married single-mom was not very able at providing (even on a low income you can provide well if you have the knack; but she didn't have it; and I'd have to say she was materially-neglectful with her boys*) while my son was well -provided for (between my knack, my indulgence, and his Dad and uncle's gernerous provision, he had what he wanted). So even though I could have pressed the point and showed my son how obvious it was, I let it go.

    *(Once I picked up my son at 8pm on a school night and she was just putting out supper for her 3 (active!) boys. It was pancakes from a mix and a bottle of cheap syrup. That's it! And there wasn't enough. The boys were arguing over the pancakes! Because they were hungry!)
    I heard that SLE make great food...Aylen will find an amazing SLE to cook for her
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 08-27-2015 at 11:07 PM.

  18. #18
    rob timidly hacim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    personal space station
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    342
    Mentioned
    45 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    So many mistyped people have got me wanting to clarify things again.
    Fe bases conclusions on Social rules and laws.

    I adked SEI friends and nurses that I know "if the law in your society states that stealing is wrong what is your judgement on someone who steal out of need"

    This is their response:

    A. "I consider myself to have morals and no stealing would not be forgiven"

    B. "Stealing is wrong period."

    This is how I would respond

    "What was the person's reason for stealing? Maybe we can all join in to hrlp him so that he doesn't have to feel the need to steal to eat."
    I think your response is tinged with Fi and Ne both - SEIs especially tend to go with "what everyone else is doing" when it comes to passing judgments, though you get the sense that they're not confident in this. Their duals, after all, are ILEs - who are some of the most "unethical" people you Fi types will meet. But Ne in ILEs (and other Ne-egos) is good at providing perspective in situations for the SEI.

    Thus, I think that your response is what any Ne-ego type would do for a Si-ego type. What you describe is a trait I've noticed in some Alpha SFs. For example, I know an ESE who needs perspective on other related things, such as mental disorder/incapacitation - she only considers that people with more pronounced difficulties "make her and the mood uncomfortable" without realizing that this isn't purposeful behavior - she needs someone to enhance her understanding behind these issues.

    I also find it ironic that ESEs are said to help LIIs come off as more humane, but there are some situations, such as my example, in which the inverse applies.

  19. #19
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hacim View Post
    I think your response is tinged with Fi and Ne both - SEIs especially tend to go with "what everyone else is doing" when it comes to passing judgments, though you get the sense that they're not confident in this. Their duals, after all, are ILEs - who are some of the most "unethical" people you Fi types will meet. But Ne in ILEs (and other Ne-egos) is good at providing perspective in situations for the SEI.

    Thus, I think that your response is what any Ne-ego type would do for a Si-ego type. What you describe is a trait I've noticed in some Alpha SFs. For example, I know an ESE who needs perspective on other related things, such as mental disorder/incapacitation - she only considers that people with more pronounced difficulties "make her and the mood uncomfortable" without realizing that this isn't purposeful behavior - she needs someone to enhance her understanding behind these issues.

    I also find it ironic that ESEs are said to help LIIs come off as more humane, but there are some situations, such as my example, in which the inverse applies.
    many of the ese o know say things like what they would do if they were in charge such as killing certain kinds of people to try to make the world better. It's like they could care less when they express these feelings passions. Not analyzing what such a world would actually function like without all these people that they would kill. Emotional judgement and sudden expression can have absence of empathy and thoughtl

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •