Question for so-lasts

[ScarlettLux]

Hey you little so-lasts..

So I've been wondering.. just how little importance/value do you place on friendship groups/circles/organizations.. etc? What does being so-last truly look like/manifest in for you? I have a close friend who is sp/sx and it's almost terrifying to me how he genuinely doesn't need friendships outside of girls he dates.. He has zero interest in making same-sex friends because to him he doesn't see the point.. it's actually kind of repulsive to me because I don't relate to it at all.. We're really only good friends cause we used to date! LOL

I'm just wondering if this is also due to introversion and how an extraverted so-last would come across? How do you guys survive... hahaha

[Narc]

I've got a whole bunch of acquaintances I basically wouldn't even say hi to on the street outside of where I know them from (and them too). Organisations I don't care about at all. Groups are basically just for having some people to get drunk with.

Both so-last stacks seem to be prone to disappearing off the social radar for weeks/months at a time. I'm coming pretty close to hitting my quota of people time again. How do they survive? Well you don't actually need groups and shit to get by. Circles and groups are really finicky and the less I feel I can be myself in them, the less I want to be around them.

But yeah, I think the proximity to people would sit something like:

(closest to people) <-- extravert sx/sp - extravert sp/sx - introvert sx/sp - introvert sp/sx --> (furthest from people)

But it'd probably still pale in comparison to people of other stacks.

[cldwlker]

Hey ScarletteLux
First of all I'm not certain yet that I am s x/sp so please take my post with a grain of salt.

As far as I remember, I've always had one or two close friends with whom I share everything (sometimes too much lol) and that's it. I first feel the drive to go and talk to a lot of people, I ask many questions about their life, hobbies, tastes... but if I feel like the person is only going to be an acquaintance I just bye and move on. It sounds pretty rude (and it may even look so) but it's just that I don't want to waste time trying to build a relationship that is going to hit a dead end at some point. It's not even voluntary, it's a deep lack of energy to socialize with people I don't find "exciting".
I'm currently spending some time with an so first introvert and I have to say I'm jealous of her very wide circle of friends even though I'm sure I wouldn't be able to maintain that much friendships without going crazy. But not having that many (but intense) friendships makes it easy to feel alone. It also gets weird when a close friend is so first or place a high value on being extensively social.
I could also be an introvert.

[krieger]

it's a form of paranoia to me. my instinct is to interpret communicatory signals as either predatory or expressions of personal trust, which makes social behavior feel intrusive and/or overly familiar. i understand rationally that a sizeable past of humanity get gratification out of being friendly without an express motive but it doesn't trigger my empathy. it leaves my mirror neurons unstirred. on that note the compulsive need to check others' intentions is a nuisance that i'm preferably left without. i'm calmer without people around.

[anndelise]

I've no problem saying hi, waving, and greeting strangers. Maybe sharing a short quip with them, while I continue on my way. But I don't usually want more beyond that. Unless I'm curious about something about them. And then once the curiosity is satisfied then I'm done with them. This is one reason why I have more introverts as acquaintances, they don't give it all up at the first get-go....iow it takes longer to satisfy my curiosity.

I recognize the need to make and maintain connections, but unless we've got similar interests we are each pursuing (primarily gardening, sustainability practices, personality and mental health), then there's nothing to really talk about except playing catch-up. Playing catch-up isn't bonding though. And if theres no bond, then things get stale pretty quick.

How this plays out in daily life? Some examples:

* When I first moved into this neighborhood I met one of the ladies through her daughter and my daughter becoming friends. The mother regularly tried to reach out to me, inviting me to game night, or movie night, etc. Basically she would have a small group of friends over and wanted to include me. I always had an excuse not to go. I'm not comfortable in such settings, and had no desire to be a part of a social group. She finally gave up on asking me over.

When other mothers tried similar, I usually just dropped my daughter off and went back home or did errands that time. I was happy to have some alone time.

Nowadays I consider this neighbor lady a closer acquaintance, almost friend. But we barely talk. Once a month or less we'll chat a bit. She'll show me what crafts she's been working on. Or I'll ask about garden related stuff. She wants to be more community oriented, as in sharing garden tools, bartering/trading skills/services. Which I think is cool, but I don't have any skills to barter with, and I hate feeling like I owe someone something, or have to do something for someone. While I declutter my home, I will set aside items I think she might like and offer them to her. It took her a few years, but she's finally accepted that I don't like just going out, hanging out, etc.

* Another woman moved into the neighborhood recently. She's craving social interactions. We're friends, and walk together sometimes. I talk more with her because I feel I can be more at ease with her. But I don't hang out with her and don't invite her over. She has an extensive network of friends and family, and always talks about them, which I tend to tune out.

* I recently struck up a friendship with a lady around the corner. But I sometimes dread chatting with her because she's constantly going on about what will the neighbors think of this, that, etc. Who cares what they think! Well, obviously she does. It seems to take up so much mental and emotional energy. I've got more important things to worry about!!

* My cat was killed a month ago, and the next door neighbor kid who I've chatted a bit with brought me flowers. I was surprised and unsure how to respond. It wasn't until after I closed the door on her that I realized that she might have wanted to talk a bit more and that I probably should have invited her in or sat outside with her. Out of guilt for not having done so, and to let her know that I actually had appreciated her thoughts, I gave her a card with a personal note. This is something that I've only done maybe a handful of times in my life.

* I can never seem to recognize my neighbors if we pass each other anywhere other than by their home. Like, the mother of the girl above came over to chat with me, and I had to ask her who she was. Or the other next door neighbor passed me on one of my walks and started talking to me like we knew each other. I spent the time silent and confused as to who this person was. It wasn't until much later after that that I realized it was her. R recognizes them immediately.

* R and I met through a special interest group that met once a month. We continued going to the group because he wanted to keep up the contacts. Since I'm the extrovert, I was expected to be the communicator. But in the group I tended to shut myself off, sit back as an observer, etc. I kept up contacts for him, but eventually let those slide too. I just don't have the energy, nor the desire, for it all. We no longer keep in touch with anyone from there.

* When there was going to be a socionics meetup in Seattle, I was torn about going. I wanted to meet the people going, but not all at the same time. You don't really get to know someone in a setting like that. And I didn't want to drive two hours just to sit uncomfortably for four more hours plus two more hrs to get home, and not really get to know anyone. I was so torn up inside about the prospect. But when the time finally came, I missed the meeting. I felt both guilty and relieved about that.

* In job settings I avoided office politics. And if I couldn't avoid it I would leave the job. I didn't want a job where I felt I needed to navigate social and political circles. One of my favorite jobs was grooming me to take over as production manager. But that created a conflict with another worker who they had been grooming before me. They figured I was the better fit. This meant I had to learn to navigate not only her hostility, but also network with some higher ups. So I quit altogether. I loved that job, and wish they had all just let me be.

* On facebook, it took me quite a while before I even considered signing up, and even then it was to keep in touch with family and look up old high school friends. Each year before my birthday I go through my friend's list and defriend anyone who I don't chat with, am not curious about, or otherwise feel there's no connection with. When I get requests from friends of friends, I say no. This usually leads to them sending me heated pm's about how its good to have a lot of friends and I'll never know if I'll like someone if I won't even give them a chance. I just don't understand why I should feel compelled to become friends with the friends of my friends. I have about 40 people on my list now, and feel that even that is too much.

[Muddy]

I really just don't care at all about being social. Outside of family, I hardly interact with anyone, ever apart from business/daily matters like shopping. There are a few reasons for this.

1. I don't like giving up what I want to do to please someone else, like eating at a place I don't like.

2. I want to avoid demands from others.

3. I don't like looking intrusive when interacting with people I don't know.

4. Removal of all conflict/drama is a nice side benefit.

5. Avoid making stupid decisions caused by peer-pressure/group-think.



Things that suck about it:

1. No one to fall back on.

2. Sometimes feel "left out" or invisible.

3. Having trouble getting to know someone when you actually want to due to lack of social experience, may even feel out of character to do so.

[ScarlettLux]

Wow. I am REALLY not so-last. Hahahahaha oh my gosh.

[ashlesha]

close to zero importance. with formal groups like work its just a matter of what i can personally get out of it with whatever minimal social effort i can get away with putting in. i don't consider myself part of any informal friend groups but sometimes i positively acknowledge them insofar as "x people have good parties" or whatever and i know that if somebody in that group is interesting to me its helpful to be cool with that crowd in general. friendships are important to me but they are distinctly one-on-one. if i invite 2 or 3 people over, i'm inviting 2 or 3 individuals over. (sp/sx)

[glam]

Wow. I am REALLY not so-last. Hahahahaha oh my gosh.

lol my thoughts exactly

[Aylen]

I have too many windows open today. :/

My sx/so, EIE, 37 (enneagram something) bf. awhile back, had some traits that made it hard living with him. The main one was the lack of privacy. He got me at first by basically being over the top romantic and mysterious. I don't know how he did it to be honest.

He did pass one of my tests. When I think I have reached a certain point with a guy, I will blurt out, "would you stay with me if you woke up tomorrow and I had a penis?' lol Most guys freak out at this, at first, so I will ask again a few months later. The ones who said yes are the ones I ended up closest to. My point was if they were only into me because of my physical parts or some kind of image thing. :/ He said he really struggled with my question a few days before he could answer it with a "yes"

It was like one moment we were talking as friends and the next he was in his car moving to my state without ever really discussing it with me. At that point I felt like I had to see it through. He got me involved in so many social get-togethers that it was exhausting.

In general I didn't mind his behavior but he had a tendency to take everything we did, even sexual stuff, and post it to the forum we were both part of. I don't know exactly why he did this but I am way private about a lot of things and when he did this it made me want to crawl into a dark hole and stay there. I felt like he never kept any part of our relationship to himself. I am so protective of relationships that when I feel a betrayal I shut down. I let him do this for a long time but I started shutting down right away.

I just feel that connections with a lot of people start to dilute my relationships. I am flirty and he was so jealous. He was flirty and I am so jealous. I am a one on one person. I don't usually get involved with group politics and gossip and he always made me the subject of gossip. I didn't feel good about myself when I was the topic of the day.

I guess I am best sticking to my own kind and keeping interactions with those who are not SO last more superficial. I am friendly enough to just about everyone and I am quick to join in playful banter but whenever any social issues come up I always seem to have the unpopular opinion and people immediately start reading things into me and my motives that are warped and misunderstood.

[Muddy]

Wow. I am REALLY not so-last. Hahahahaha oh my gosh.

Yep, I find it fascinating how vastly apart some people are with how much they value social interaction. I'm not certain if I'm sx/sp or sp/sx but I am certain I am So last. Some more facts about myself:

I only have around 30 friends on facebook, where as the average for people my age (I'm 19) seems to be at least 250, probably more.

I've only visited a non-family in their house maybe 2 times.

Never called anyone outside of family or work.

I still never met my neighbors in the place I've been in for over a year now.

In online games I play solo 99% of the time.

Never invited anyone to come visit.

Pure virgin, no female friends.

Finding references for job applications is highly frustrating.

Zero community involvement.



Combine So-last with 1D-Fe and this is what you get. Fortunately I don't seem bothered much by it outside of bits of nostalgia.

[Galen]

As one of the few remaining Elite True Sx/Sps on here, I've got friendships and I definitely care enough about them enough to continue fostering them, but I won't usually take the initiative to get it done. It's not that I "don't care" about being social; more like it's an aspect of my life that I'm prone to putting on hold or just forgetting about entirely. I'll go through bouts of being people-y and tag along with all the things my friends are doing. But I think that side of me gets sated a lot quicker than with non-so-lasts, so once I've had my fill I'll end up starting to shut off and go back to doing my own thing.

[lynn]

i wonder for what purpose so-blindspot people use the so instinct if they (have) to use it. or what is important to consider another person a friend?

[Galen]

i wonder for what purpose so-blindspot people use the so instinct if they (have) to use it.

You don't "use" an instinct for anything, it's innate to a person's humanhood.

[cldwlker]

It's interesting to see how each type experiences being so-last. I wonder if being Fx polr can give the impression of being so-last or if it's correlated.

[Myst]

Overall I only indirectly relate to most people. That is, I like to do something useful for other people via my work or other contributions and I'm very competitive which requires a certain awareness of people and society on the whole but I don't socialize with people much.

How that plays out is, I don't like to spend much time in groups for the sake of socializing. If there is a specific goal I can work for inside that context then I can spend time with many people around but even them I'm quite unaware of the sort of group dynamics that other people pay attention to.

If there is a goal for the entire group, I don't like to be just a follower of the group; I'm impervious to groupthink. If my goals happen to align with that goal then I'll be ok with staying but even then only by actively influencing things, not just going along as part of the group, or if they do not align then I'll just leave and go do my own thing.

Otherwise I'm ok with people coming up to me and initiate a bit of contact, I actually like a bit of time spent that way, it energizes me or something for a short time, but if I can't see it continuing long term because the person isn't interesting enough to me then I want to leave soon.

Also I do often disappear for a long time from anything social related. That's actually my default state so I should instead say that I sometimes come out of my cave. By default I only regularly meet close friends. Facebook and the like is also quite meh.

[silke]

Reposting this from the enneagram workshop notes. It sounds like quite a few responses are falling into the pit of literal interpretation of how the instincts were named e.g. "SO/Social" = social extraversion = lots of friends / hanging out in groups etc., which is not the case

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...notes-sp-so-sx

It was mentioned that many people who thought they were soc-last, later find out they are soc-middle or soc-first once they actually understand the instinct. Social instinct is not about "liking to be in groups" or liking to socialize.

SOC Instinct

~ ability to adapt behavior [e.g. high adaptability to others in conversation]
~ beginning place of altruism -- as animals became more complex, the young needing longer care, a need arose for an instinct that could override sp to ensure the survival of one's children even if one loses one's own life
~ soc is subjectively experienced as caring ("giving a damn")
~ play (for fun) (or flirting in case of romantic play) [e.g. playful banter]
~ acceptance, interested in who others really are [acknowledgement of others]
~ awareness of the other -- compared with sx awareness of the energy between two people, soc brings awareness of the other as themselves, as a person in their own right -- and of how one's self and the other are affecting each other
~ soc brings a certain humility because of the sense of interdependence. less overestimating the relative importance of one individual self
~ soc decides what we say "yes" vs. "no" to socially, it's how we read situations and people and decide where to invest
~ most communication is soc (except for territorial (sp) and mating (sx))
~ cited a study in which the biggest factor for longevity was friendship
~ bonds between species (e.g. humans and pets) are examples of soc instinct
~ one way of looking at all the major spiritual teachings are as an expansion of the soc instinct; ultimately, including all life within the soc instinct's movement toward win-win
~ under ego distortion, the soc instinct is involved in war, group dominance - though those are soc in combination with sp (survival/greed) and/or sx (competition). straight-up/undistorted soc instinct is always win-win.

SOC areas:

~ reading people and adapting behavior
➙ sp wants other stuff to adapt to the self; soc is willing to adapt self in light of others' needs
as an example, suppose you feel the room is too hot and you see a thermostat on the wall. sp just turns down the thermostat, but soc gauges others' temperature - if everyone else in the room is dressed lightly, soc does not turn down the thermostat.

~ bonding, affiliating, communicating / creating connection
➙ attraction is sx, but creating and maintaining bonds/relationship is soc
marriage is primarily soc

~ contribution and participation.
➙we're wired to contribute. regardless of stack, self-esteem suffers when we feel we have nothing to contribute or what we contribute isn't wanted or doesn't matter.
➙ valuing each others' contributions falls in the soc area as well.

When soc is the blind spot:
~ opportunities to be with others are seen in terms of "what will it cost me". Can be a feeling of not caring, of being excessively selfish.
~ talking to self, may be really talking to self even when ostensibly talking to others, interrupting
~ always a feeling of not having made one's contribution even when one actually is contributing

[Myst]

When soc is the blind spot:
~ opportunities to be with others are seen in terms of "what will it cost me". Can be a feeling of not caring, of being excessively selfish.
~ talking to self, may be really talking to self even when ostensibly talking to others, interrupting
~ always a feeling of not having made one's contribution even when one actually is contributing

Yeah, I relate to these. I like the last one especially. Being an outsider by nature, yeah.

Also, I suck at a lot of stuff in the lists you posted or I just plain don't care or am honestly blind to it. These things are what I was referring to when I talked about group dynamics. Tho' the 1D Fe also doesn't help, for sure.

marriage is primarily soc

Oh is it. I'm somehow left quite unimpressed by the idea of marriage as a custom. Looking deeper it does make sense it's due to the low soc instinct. (I'm ok otherwise with getting the paper for e.g. law related advantages it provides)

[The Exception]

I've bolded what applies to me. Which isn't very helpful in determining position of SO in the stacking because I relate to almost everything in the SOC description as well as the stuff in the SOC blind spot.
I'll die happy once I've figured out my stacking for sure. (not literally).

SOC Instinct

~ ability to adapt behavior [e.g. high adaptability to others in conversation]
~ beginning place of altruism -- as animals became more complex, the young needing longer care, a need arose for an instinct that could override sp to ensure the survival of one's children even if one loses one's own life
~ soc is subjectively experienced as caring ("giving a damn")
~ play (for fun) (or flirting in case of romantic play) [e.g. playful banter]
~ acceptance, interested in who others really are [acknowledgement of others]
~ awareness of the other -- compared with sx awareness of the energy between two people, soc brings awareness of the other as themselves, as a person in their own right -- and of how one's self and the other are affecting each other
~ soc brings a certain humility because of the sense of interdependence. less overestimating the relative importance of one individual self
~ soc decides what we say "yes" vs. "no" to socially, it's how we read situations and people and decide where to invest
~ most communication is soc (except for territorial (sp) and mating (sx))
~ cited a study in which the biggest factor for longevity was friendship
~ bonds between species (e.g. humans and pets) are examples of soc instinct
~ one way of looking at all the major spiritual teachings are as an expansion of the soc instinct; ultimately, including all life within the soc instinct's movement toward win-win
~ under ego distortion, the soc instinct is involved in war, group dominance - though those are soc in combination with sp (survival/greed) and/or sx (competition). straight-up/undistorted soc instinct is always win-win.

SOC areas:

~ reading people and adapting behavior
➙ sp wants other stuff to adapt to the self; soc is willing to adapt self in light of others' needs
as an example, suppose you feel the room is too hot and you see a thermostat on the wall. sp just turns down the thermostat, but soc gauges others' temperature - if everyone else in the room is dressed lightly, soc does not turn down the thermostat.

~ bonding, affiliating, communicating / creating connection
➙ attraction is sx, but creating and maintaining bonds/relationship is soc
marriage is primarily soc

~ contribution and participation.
➙we're wired to contribute. regardless of stack, self-esteem suffers when we feel we have nothing to contribute or what we contribute isn't wanted or doesn't matter.
➙ valuing each others' contributions falls in the soc area as well.

When soc is the blind spot:
~ opportunities to be with others are seen in terms of "what will it cost me". Can be a feeling of not caring, of being excessively selfish.
~ talking to self, may be really talking to self even when ostensibly talking to others, interrupting
~ always a feeling of not having made one's contribution even when one actually is contributing[/I]

[anndelise]

I like Mario Sikora's take on enneagram instincts.
Here's a thread about it with other links: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-the-instincts

He treats the instincts as clusters of instincts grouped into three domains. Meaning, for example, that SP instinct isn't one instinct, but a cluster of instincts related to SP domain. A person can demonstrate some instincts of each domain without being required to demonstrate ALL the instincts related to any one domain. And he recognizes that instincts within a domain can compete with each other. He also doesn't limit the instinctual domains to survival/replication of genes, but also includes memes (such as ideas, beliefs, values, etc).

He labels the domains differently, which leads to less confusion about what the domain refers to.
* Preserving - & Nurturing. Preserving/nurturing comfort, wellbeing, and resources. Protectors of things that can be passed from one generation to the next (offspring, traditions, artifacts, pictures, heirlooms, rituals, etc)
* Transmitting - attracting & bonding; driven to spread a part of oneself beyond oneself. Concerned with the reproducing/replicating of genes/memes. Attracting attention and making one's voice heard.
* Navigating - making one's way through the world especially in relationship to others. Understanding how the group/community works, creating alignment w/ others, behaving in ways to be more acceptable to others, monitoring the behavior of others and establishing norms and mores. Collaboration, empathy, cooperation. The world of criticism (passing judgment) and marketing (presentations to make something/someone more/less socially acceptable)

[Aylen]

I like Mario Sikora's take on enneagram instincts.
Here's a thread about it with other links: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-the-instincts

He treats the instincts as clusters of instincts grouped into three domains. Meaning, for example, that SP instinct isn't one instinct, but a cluster of instincts related to SP domain. A person can demonstrate some instincts of each domain without being required to demonstrate ALL the instincts related to any one domain. And he recognizes that instincts within a domain can compete with each other. He also doesn't limit the instinctual domains to survival/replication of genes, but also includes memes (such as ideas, beliefs, values, etc).

He labels the domains differently, which leads to less confusion about what the domain refers to.
* Preserving - & Nurturing. Preserving/nurturing comfort, wellbeing, and resources. Protectors of things that can be passed from one generation to the next (offspring, traditions, artifacts, pictures, heirlooms, rituals, etc)
* Transmitting - attracting & bonding; driven to spread a part of oneself beyond oneself. Concerned with the reproducing/replicating of genes/memes. Attracting attention and making one's voice heard.
* Navigating - making one's way through the world especially in relationship to others. Understanding how the group/community works, creating alignment w/ others, behaving in ways to be more acceptable to others, monitoring the behavior of others and establishing norms and mores. Collaboration, empathy, cooperation. The world of criticism (passing judgment) and marketing (presentations to make something/someone more/less socially acceptable)

Thanks Ann, you actually directed me to the thread I mentioned in the sx/sp thread. Synchronicity.

"Tell-Tale Behaviors


The things we focus on and the things we talk about betray our subtype. When we are not consciously thinking about something specific, we are probably thinking about the needs stemming from our dominant instinct.


Therefore, someone with a self-preservation subtype will talk about their homes, their health, and their physical and financial security. They will constantly monitor their environment and focus on shaping it in ways that will increase their physical comfort.


The social subtype will talk about other people — who is doing what with whom and why. They will compare and contrast people, passing judgment on others behaviors and choices.


The sexual subtype will talk about themselves—their accomplishments, their relationships, and their activities; they will also talk about sex. They will draw attention to themselves through their appearance, their charm, and their possessions."

I got a lot of feedback from xxxx (so/sx) when we were talking frequently on voice. He would always ask if I was listening because I have a tendency to interrupt during conversations and start talking about something I experienced. It was actually really good that he told me this because it made me more aware of when I do it. I am more attentive when I am interested in someone (at least in the early stages ), in more than a friendly way, but with friends I have to be careful not to dominate which can make them feel unheard. :/

Two sx firsts on the phone/voice can actually be interesting because it is like talking at and over each other sometimes but I still hear them and will get back around to it. It just gets a bit chaotic but that spikes the energy and makes it more exciting.

[Aylen]

Oh is it. I'm somehow left quite unimpressed by the idea of marriage as a custom. Looking deeper it does make sense it's due to the low soc instinct. (I'm ok otherwise with getting the paper for e.g. law related advantages it provides)

A marriage proposal I got from an sp/sx was presented in a "I can put you on my health insurance" manner. How romantic, right? I should have kept more than mental notes of how the different subtypes proposed to me over the years. I had an sp/so propose with an offer to take care of me and my family when I was like 19/20. When I said no, he met another girl and married her two weeks later. He was way too old for me anyway but my mom (so/sp) was not happy when I refused his offer. She thought I passed on a life of security and didn't understand why I said no. I mean she married for love and security but she could not understand why I passed due to lack of love. She said I could have grown to love him. He owned a chain of stores. She isn't even a gold digger so I felt hurt that she wanted me to marry someone I didn't love.

Now that I think about it the sx/so proposed with an offer of never-ending romance, adventure, being treated like a goddess, plus he would take care of my family. I only turned one offer down flat and the others I convinced that a piece of paper was not important for us to be committed to each other. The insurance deal almost went down.

I can see how you would think in a more practical way, than me, due to being logical, when it comes to marriage, and why you do not need it as a confirmation of love or commitment. To me there can be no promise of a lifetime commitment. People change so the best I can do is be loyal and show them what they mean to me while it lasts. I just don't expect anyone to make that promise to me but if it happened naturally that would be cool. My disillusionment with marriage happened at an early age (15) for me. I vowed to never build my hopes for the future on another person again.

I do find the IDEA of handfasting, in the forest, appealing but do not have anyone specifically in mind nor would I ever suggest it to anyone.

I did have one guy who wanted me to stage a fake wedding to fool our friends into thinking we really did it, on Halloween. It was a fun idea but we never followed through. It was too much work for a Halloween party.

[Myst]

Reposting this from the enneagram workshop notes. It sounds like quite a few responses are falling into the pit of literal interpretation of how the instincts were named e.g. "SO/Social" = social extraversion = lots of friends / hanging out in groups etc., which is not the case

It was mentioned that many people who thought they were soc-last, later find out they are soc-middle or soc-first once they actually understand the instinct. Social instinct is not about "liking to be in groups" or liking to socialize.

I forgot to ask you, why do you say that the social instinct does not include socializing? A lot of the lists you copypasted here are directly about aspects of socializing. Really really do not understand your stance here, explain.

[mu4]

SL you seem SX/SO and SP-last

[mu4]

1st stacking vs 2nd stacking is kind of interesting.

In enneagram the 1st stacking is strong but neurotic so it can exhibit a lot of distortion due to the 2nd instinct which is sort of a coping mechanism.

[silke]

I forgot to ask you, why do you say that the social instinct does not include socializing? A lot of the lists you copypasted here are directly about aspects of socializing. Really really do not understand your stance here, explain.

That's because I do not say that social instinct does not include socializing. People of all instinct stackings socialize as we're a social animal that needs to find friends, supporters, and mates among others. However, the mode of socialization, what one is putting out there and seeking from others, is different from stacking to stacking. The point that I made is that soc-lasts shouldn't be stereotyped as loners with hardly any friends per literal interpretation of instinct names "Soc=social, therefore Soc-last=sitting alone at home" - this is inaccurate. There are quite a few actors, celebs, and public figures who fall under soc-last stackings and who get much more social exposure than the average soc-first/middle poster on this forum.

Such as Louis CK - sp/sx



and Sarah Silverman - sp/sx

[Myst]

That's because I do not say that social instinct does not include socializing. People of all instinct stackings socialize as we're a social animal that needs to find friends, supporters, and mates among others. However, the mode of socialization, what one is putting out there and seeking from others, is different from stacking to stacking. The point that I made is that soc-lasts shouldn't be stereotyped as loners with hardly any friends per literal interpretation of instinct names "Soc=social, therefore Soc-last=sitting alone at home" - this is inaccurate. There are quite a few actors, celebs, and public figures who fall under soc-last stackings and who get much more social exposure than the average soc-first/middle poster on this forum.

The everyday definition of socializing matches the social instinct aspects you listed.

I don't think anyone who posted here has such a superficial stereotyped understanding that you assume here.

[silke]

The everyday definition of socializing matches the social instinct aspects you listed.

I don't think anyone who posted here has such a superficial stereotyped understanding that you assume here.

What's the "everyday definition of socializing" and how do you draw such a tight correlation from it to so?
Afaik social-firsts can and do have some downtime and may even isolate themselves from others, as per what @Olly From Wally World has mentioned of himself, and I'd like to hear both @GuavaDrunk's, @Lim's, and @SisOfNight's opinions on this seeing how they type as so/sx. Since you're equating socializing=social instinct, how do you explain this?

[Myst]

What's the "everyday definition of socializing" and how do you draw such a tight correlation from it to so?
Afaik social-firsts can and do have some downtime and may even isolate themselves from others, as per what @Olly From Wally World has mentioned of himself, and I'd like to hear both @GuavaDrunk's, @Lim's, and @SisOfNight's opinions on this seeing how they type as so/sx. Since you're equating socializing=social instinct, how do you explain this?

No one ever said being soc-first means having no downtime or that it means extraversion. It's a mode of being that takes into account people in general in a way that it makes you interested in and adapted to the social aspect of the environment.

Merriam-Webster lists these interpretations of the words socialize and social:

to talk to and do things with other people in a friendly way
to teach (someone) to behave in a way that is acceptable in society
to make social; especially: to fit or train for a social environment
to adapt to social needs or uses
relating to or involving activities in which people spend time talking to each other or doing enjoyable things with each other
of or relating to people or society in general
marked by or passed in pleasant companionship with friends or associates
of or relating to human society, the interaction of the individual and the group, or the welfare of human beings as members of society <social institutions>
tending to form cooperative and interdependent relationships with others
living and breeding in more or less organized communities <social insects>

Clearly it's not simply about extraversion but about relating to people and society in a social fashion.

[anndelise]

I'd like to point out that the OP specifically and primarily asked about friendship groups/circles/organisations and the value so-lasts might place on those. And was curious about any differences between extroverted and introverted so-lasts in this regard.

So, likely, if the answers focused on that, then that's because that was what was asked for.

[mu4]

I don't have friends mostly because I'm not good with keeping up with people. I'm not even sure how to go about maintaining friendships at this point, tbh. It's not that I hate people (well, I tend to avoid people who I don't already know), but I just don't see it as top priority or whatever. Unless someone else takes the initiative, my friendships generally fade away slowly.

People tend to take offence to this, I've noticed. I'm better at making enemies than friendships. People are good at picking out my flaws and casting me aside because I make it easy for them by not caring. I'm not a very openly friendly or welcoming person by nature, though I do try, but it's often forced. I'm also awkward around people who I haven't already established a comfortable bond with.

Whenever I leave a job, my old coworkers usually find a reason to disown me. I left a job I worked at for 7 years (to better my career) and nobody threw me a going away dinner (as they do with everyone else who leaves). They cast me aside, talked behind my back and hoped that I failed. A coworker from that job even stated unnecessary drama on my facebook page and insulted me for no good reason. She said that she felt like I had a stick up my ass, left with no explanation and abandoned everyone. It boggled my mind, as I had put in a two week notice.

Mmm, I'm not surprised most people(men/women) would be jealous of you or intimidated by you, for various reasons. Not sure if there is a way for you to behave differently or change people's perceptions. There will be people that you will meet that you will genuinely connect with, as long as you hold those people close I think things will be fine. I think you do a lot of things to shield yourself from others and this can seem very arrogant and such. You have probably created some defense mechanisms which helps you deal with the world.

[Aylen]

Sorry for the delete but I was not ready to completely let go of that info. It still belongs to me and the few who may have seen it.



http://soulspottv.com/blog/science-c...hic-abilities/

[Aylen]

Mmm, I'm not surprised most people(men/women) would be jealous of you or intimidated by you, for various reasons. Not sure if there is a way for you to behave differently or change people's perceptions. There will be people that you will meet that you will genuinely connect with, as long as you hold those people close I think things will be fine. I think you do a lot of things to shield yourself from others and this can seem very arrogant and such. You have probably created some defense mechanisms which helps you deal with the world.

I had to think about this a bit... from the pics I have seen, Starfall is gorgeous and I am assuming this is why you say you are not surprised why people are jealous and intimidated. I had a gorgeous friend in the same boat as her and she never understood why people seemed to be put off by her when other equally gorgeous women got all the friends and attention. Unfortunately my friend never took the time to question why this was. She is in her 30s, alone and kind of bitter. She has basically given up on everything including finding a relationship. She never listened to people who gave her constructive criticism and she lacked self awareness. Now she is the one jealous of others even though her external features are just as beautiful as they were years ago. It was always other people's fault and never anything she did. This is not how I see SF btw.

This response of yours is reinforcing beliefs that she is a victim of other people's perception and they are going to be like that regardless because they are jealous or intimidated. It is an energy thing if anything. If she is self protective/defensive, anxious or uncomfortable around other people they are going to pick up on that, sure, and they will respond in kind. People have to take some kind of responsibility for the reactions they cause in others especially knowing about Fe and how it works.

Starfall has been though a lot recently and it has been hard for her so I imagine that the usual issues of being social last are more pronounced. I can relate to a lot of what she writes but not this, not anymore but yeah old patterns pop up now and then. I am not usually that bothered by my lack of social activities or keeping up with friends. I have great friends who accept I am like this and they know I will connect when I want so most do not push me. If she wants to change this stuff it will take a lot of introspection and self awareness.

I used to get into a lot of conflicts with women and to this day I have very few female friends, who are not family, and there are several reasons for this which I won't go into. The female friends I do have mean everything to me. They relate to me in ways that I cannot even put into words and we don't even need words most of the time. It is enough for us to get a message, now and then, just saying "I love you". I know they mean it as do I when I say it in return.

I used to feed off my "friends" (superficial) telling me others were just jealous and that is why I was harassed and stalked by crazy females. It fed my ego tbh. Then I just woke up and realized I am the one teaching and influencing how others treat me. I had to build up my self-esteem 'cause when I looked into myself I did not see anything for them to be jealous of. It was like a void. I had go into that void and somehow I managed to find myself in it.

I had several therapists who helped me sort through years of beliefs about myself that were taught to me by others. Beliefs that I did not question. I just accepted them. I think she will be just fine, ftr. It is better to have one good friend who understands you than 100 superficial people who only see the surface and will turn on you when you do not conform to their personal or social expectations. SF has a lot of depth. I see this and have only had brief interactions with her. I also see that this goes over some people's heads. I am not saying this is true in your case. I just observe how she is treated, even on here, by people.

I am not scolding you btw. lol Did it sound like a scolding?

@Starfall

[mu4]

This response of yours is reinforcing beliefs that she is a victim of other people's perception and they are going to be like that regardless because they are jealous or intimidated. It is an energy thing if anything. If she is self protective/defensive, anxious or uncomfortable around other people they are going to pick up on that, sure, and they will respond in kind. People have to take some kind of responsibility for the reactions they cause in others especially knowing about Fe and how it works.

I don't think I'm trying to defend her or anything, she's who she is. There's a lot of petty people out there, not all people will react with jealousy, some may react with simply awe or be unnerved. There are people who you can interact with and are compatible with who you are, no matter how you are. Starfall might need to work on somethings for herself, I think this is true for almost everyone. I noted that has defense mechanisms that come into play when interacting, these are not always good and are a area to work on if she so chooses.

[Aylen]

I don't think I'm trying to defend her or anything, she's who she is. There's a lot of petty people out there, not all people will react with jealousy, some may react with simply awe or be unnerved. There are people who you can interact with and are compatible with who you are, no matter how you are. Starfall might need to work on somethings for herself, I think this is true for almost everyone. I noted that has defense mechanisms that come into play when interacting, these are not always good and are a area to work on if she so chooses.

This is something I relate to. It is a ongoing process for me. I have to be diligent with myself. I never want to disappear into the void again. It is a black hole of despair. I like to disappear in a "different" way now and I am more interested in creating white holes. I just have to learn how.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Myst]

This response of yours is reinforcing beliefs that she is a victim of other people's perception and they are going to be like that regardless because they are jealous or intimidated. It is an energy thing if anything. If she is self protective/defensive, anxious or uncomfortable around other people they are going to pick up on that, sure, and they will respond in kind. People have to take some kind of responsibility for the reactions they cause in others especially knowing about Fe and how it works.

Starfall has been though a lot recently and it has been hard for her so I imagine that the usual issues of being social last are more pronounced. I can relate to a lot of what she writes but not this, not anymore but yeah old patterns pop up now and then. I am not usually that bothered by my lack of social activities or keeping up with friends. I have great friends who accept I am like this and they know I will connect when I want so most do not push me. If she wants to change this stuff it will take a lot of introspection and self awareness.

I don't know if the issue is about reluctance to take responsibility or more about simply not being aware of causes and mechanisms of problems. Say you know there is a problem but you have absolutely no clue as to what's causing it and so you don't even know where to assign the responsibility beyond a general desire to fix the problem. Also, it's ok to take responsibility for having made whatever decisions in the past or even for defense mechanisms built up inadvertently and for making new decisions and sticking by them to fix things but not ok to try and blame yourself in any way for things of the past. That doesn't really give you the energy to move forward and fix things. IMO

[Aylen]

I don't know if the issue is about reluctance to take responsibility or more about simply not being aware of causes and mechanisms of problems. Say you know there is a problem but you have absolutely no clue as to what's causing it and so you don't even know where to assign the responsibility beyond a general want of wanting to fix the problem. Also, it's ok to take responsibility but not ok to try and blame yourself in any way for things of the past. That doesn't really give you the energy to move forward and fix things. IMO

Yep, for me, taking responsibility is not automatically synonymous with taking blame. Even now my automatic response is to take all the blame for relationships that go wrong (at first) but it is easier for me now to shift that into taking responsibility for my actions that led to a breakdown. My therapist helped me with that too. As a child I would get blamed for everything even when I didn't do it. I got to the point of just saying yeah it was me, even when it wasn't. I wasn't trying to be a martyr. I just felt I was more capable of handling the punishment than my sister who I was protective of. The exception to this was when it involved "outsiders". My mom could not bear the thought that her kid was the one leading other people's children astray so she would blame my friends before me. That is when I would get really protective of my friends and take the blame for getting in trouble even when I wasn't the ringleader. Something about her denial made me want her to confront it and stop pretending I was only rebellious because of others. She only gives birth to perfection after all. 136 type.

[Beautiful sky]

Yep, for me, taking responsibility is not automatically synonymous with taking blame. Even now my automatic response is to take all the blame for relationships that go wrong (at first) but it is easier for me now to shift that into taking responsibility for my actions that led to a breakdown. My therapist helped me with that too. As a child I would get blamed for everything even when I didn't do it. I got to the point of just saying yeah it was me, even when it wasn't. I wasn't trying to be a martyr. I just felt I was more capable of handling the punishment than my sister who I was protective of. The exception to this was when it involved "outsiders". My mom could not bear the thought that her kid was the one leading other people's children astray so she would blame my friends before me. That is when I would get really protective of my friends and take the blame for getting in trouble even when I wasn't the ringleader. Something about her denial made me want her to confront it and stop pretending I was only rebellious because of others. She only gives birth to perfection after all. 136 type.

that's a kind of lying (I'm not blaming you by the way you were strong). I would admit to the truth however painful.

[Aylen]

that's a kind of lying (I'm not blaming you by the way you were strong). I would admit to the truth however painful.

Oh it was straight up lying but the alternative seemed way worse at the time. I only had a couple close friends and the idea of my mom going to their houses to tell their parents what lousy people they were and that they were raising miscreants was horrifying. Not only did I want to make my mom admit that I was never going to be the perfect child, I also wanted to keep my close friends who did accept me as I was.

Edit: This was pretty much during my preteens, btw.

[Myst]

Yep, for me, taking responsibility is not automatically synonymous with taking blame. Even now my automatic response is to take all the blame for relationships that go wrong (at first) but it is easier for me now to shift that into taking responsibility for my actions that led to a breakdown. My therapist helped me with that too. As a child I would get blamed for everything even when I didn't do it. I got to the point of just saying yeah it was me, even when it wasn't. I wasn't trying to be a martyr. I just felt I was more capable of handling the punishment than my sister who I was protective of. The exception to this was when it involved "outsiders". My mom could not bear the thought that her kid was the one leading other people's children astray so she would blame my friends before me. That is when I would get really protective of my friends and take the blame for getting in trouble even when I wasn't the ringleader. Something about her denial made me want her to confront it and stop pretending I was only rebellious because of others. She only gives birth to perfection after all. 136 type.

Yeah, the two are not synonymous. They are distinctly different modes of being Glad you are able to do that now easier. Lol about perfection, it does not exist