Question regarding quadras

[Muddy]

So I'm pretty certain I'm ILI, but one thing is still bugging me. I seem value alpha's values more. By that I mean I like just relaxing and having a good time rather than being all business-like. I seem to relate the most with alpha, some beta, some gamma, and the least with delta. Note that I dislike large social interaction so that part of alpha I don't identify with, but the part about being non-serious and enjoying comfort over being productive I can relate to quite a lot.

So my question is, is it possible to value other quadra values, even the opposing's, more than of your own? Or is it normal for some ILIs to just not care much about Te activities? I seem very split between LII and ILI with only a slight edge towards ILI. In the socionics test I've taken I've always scored very high on both LII and ILI. I know socionics tests aren't exactly the best but this result is amazingly consistent with all the ones I took. Temperament wise I'm definitely more IP then IJ but quadra wise I seem more alpha then gamma, and I'm definitely not an SEI. I already considered IEI since many say IEIs confuse themselves for LIIs and ILIs but Fe is nowhere to be found and I don't relate much to it at all in general.

So again, is it possible to relate more to another quadra then your own?

[niffer]

Yes, and if we were to hold your strongly dominant in Ni perception in lead as an axiom, it would further exemplify this.

If you think about it, very strong Ni (= very weak Se) is the personification, i.e. societal "result", of saturation of Si values in terms of society's endless spiral "timeline" slash clock of information.

So, as it's manifested in reality it creates something that looks contradictory to the theory. But it is not.

Key concepts to think about are "values" that are held, versus the personification (acting out) of the held value that is labelled as a "value" for semantic purposes.

[chemical]

Well here's the thing... there's like a zillion different fields intersecting, and they're not really all the same even if related. What social groups you hang out, what your motivations are, how you think, what you cognitive values are...

I suggest taking a look at the overall philosophy of what NiTe in socionics is all about, and once you really internalize the philosophy behind that cognitive valuation, see how it relates to the stuff like being businesslike.

In my own conception, a good number of Jung's original prophet types were probably ILIs, and I don't think business-like is the way to characterize their Te. But more or less the way they seemed to work is that their intuition discerns the overall context of the time they're involved in, and often their focus was more on proclaiming the activities relevant to be done in that context than in developing logical frameworks to capture a static intuition - the nature and importance of the idea would tend to shift with context much more greatly, so there wasn't as much of an impetus to define it as is. The attitude to judgment was definitely that it is secondary, so some would be scant on rationalizing the activities they proclaimed must be done.

So I'd basically just view the social groups fitting in stuff as more of a (possible) result of the cognitive valuations, and understand what NiTe vs TiNe is getting at.

[ghost of forum past]

See, the thing is that Socionics was essentially developed by Alpha NTs. Quadras are described in a clearly biased fashion: The Alpha quadra was created to be a perfect utopia for all us lonely LII and ILE misunderstood geniuses, where smiling, cheerful people feed us ceaselessly and let us do whatever we want. I'd argue that that sounds good to more types than just Alpha NTs. Conversely, Gamma is described the evil Western moralistic capitalist pig cool kids' club that stomps all over homeless people.

I'm half joking here, but quadra values are obviously not presented without bias in classical Socionics literature. They are something not to be taken very seriously, though the Alpha description gets pretty close to ILE / LII utopia in my eyes.

Note that I dislike large social interaction so that part of alpha I don't identify with, but the part about being non-serious and enjoying comfort over being productive I can relate to quite a lot.

Almost sounds Delta irrational to me - valuing Te doesn't always mean productivity, especially if it's not your leading function.

[Muddy]

See, the thing is that Socionics was essentially developed by Alpha NTs. Quadras are described in a clearly biased fashion: The Alpha quadra was created to be a perfect utopia for all us lonely LII and ILE misunderstood geniuses, where smiling, cheerful people feed us ceaselessly and let us do whatever we want. I'd argue that that sounds good to more types than just Alpha NTs. Conversely, Gamma is described the evil Western moralistic capitalist pig cool kids' club that stomps all over homeless people.

I'm half joking here, but quadra values are obviously not presented without bias in classical Socionics literature. They are something not to be taken very seriously, though the Alpha description gets pretty close to ILE / LII utopia in my eyes.



Almost sounds Delta irrational to me - valuing Te doesn't always mean productivity, especially if it's not your leading function.

Yeah, I can say I've noticed that learning about socionics is like digging for gems in of a pile of shit. As for the possibility of being delta irrational, I suppose SLI isn't completely out of the question but I've always assumed being an intuitive over a sensor. Could your average SLI tolerate playing games on the computer without going outside for days at a time?

[Adam Strange]

Man, this is just my two cents worth, but I've lived with one or more SLI's every day of my life, and none of them would pick your robot picture for their avatar. That picture is 95% ILI, maybe 5% ILE.

I think it is possible to see many things in yourself that could cause you to think you fall into one type or quadra category or another. (Hey, I jumped off the garage roof once. That doesn't make me Birdman.) But if I were you and were trying to nail down my type, I would seek out the Duals, the Conflictors, and the two types whose base functions are inverted from the types that you think you might be (find Ne-doms if you think you are an Ni-dom) and test each type to see if, when you are around them, you are 1. initially put off, then form a pleasant attachment, 2. initially attracted, then can't stand each other, and 3. think they are hot, but can't live with them. Respectively.

That ought to do it.

As Heinlein said, there's no substitute for testing.

[Muddy]

Yeah I didn't think I was ever SLI, delta values just don't do it for me. Still good to keep an open mind though.

I would agree that seeing how I interact with ESEs vs SEEs would help, but the problem is that I don't know any. I suspect my mother whom I see regularly might be ESE. I thought before she was SEI because she seemed a little more introverted then a typical ESE but at the same time she clearly seems like a rational type. (Restless rather then lazy, likes being organized, perfectionist, denounces thuggish people). Fe and Si and very easy to see in her. She is probably ESE with a very strong focus on Si. Anyway I wouldn't really say it seems like conflict or duality when I interact with. She helps a lot with daily problems which I greatly appreciate, but I'm also constantly slightly annoyed by her restlessness and focus on mundane details. So yeah, thats pretty much all I can say about ESEs.

As for SEEs, I don't know any, period.

Actually this got me thinking. Since I grew up with an ESE parent, you think its possible I somehow "adjusted" myself by accepting alpha values? Perhaps I subconsciously adapted to a conflictor by acting more like their dual? This might explain the ILI/LII split.

Edit: My mother looks EXACTLY like this pic of an ESE lol.

es_005.jpg

[The Exception]

I'm an LII, in the alpha quadra and also relate to alpha the best.

But the quadra I relate to the *least* is not my opposing quadra gamma, but rather, it's beta. Try to explain that.

Maybe it has to do with the Se valuing + aristocratic. I dunno.

Overall, in terms of relatability I'd say: alpha > delta > gamma > beta

[Whoobie77]

So I'm pretty certain I'm ILI, but one thing is still bugging me. I seem value alpha's values more. By that I mean I like just relaxing and having a good time rather than being all business-like. I seem to relate the most with alpha, some beta, some gamma, and the least with delta. Note that I dislike large social interaction so that part of alpha I don't identify with, but the part about being non-serious and enjoying comfort over being productive I can relate to quite a lot.

So my question is, is it possible to value other quadra values, even the opposing's, more than of your own?

Screen-shot-2011-08-25-at-11.15.36.png

question first if your map is faulty before you start deriding nature for being too multivariate for your map

[silke]

time to bring up your typing thread for more feedback?

I don't relate to a lot of what gets broadcasted as Beta quadra values but then someone mentions smth like "elevating your consciousness to higher levels" and i'm like "yeah..that thing" so quadra values ime has been really hit or miss

[DaftPunk]

Like chemical said it's just logical that if you're Ni-Base that you don't use mainly Ti to make sense of things because you take in informtion via Ni and use more often a Je informational element to rationalize your perception. Je is more a case by case mindset than Ji which is more systematic and subjective. Therefore Pi and Ji just don't work very smoth together like Pi / Je and Pe /Ji.

If you're unsure between ILI and LII you could also look at your Super-ID block because Fe/Si seeking is completely different from Fi-Se seeking. Could you imagine to get along better with a Se-Base or a Fe-Base?

[Muddy]

Well the thing is, there are aspects about Fe and Se that I both like and dislike. I like the warmth and thoughtfulness of Fe doms, but dislike their restlessness and when they expect me conform to their Fe atmosphere. I like the thrill/action seeking of Se doms, but dislike it when they try to domineer or control.

[DaftPunk]

Well the thing is, there are aspects about Fe and Se that I both like and dislike. I like the warmth and thoughtfulness of Fe doms, but dislike their restlessness and when they expect me conform to their Fe atmosphere. I like the thrill/action seeking of Se doms, but dislike it when they try to domineer or control.

A friend of mine is SEE and with a IEI together he is pretty pushy and forceful but mostly in a charming way. She often doesn't want to do what he wants and opposes him. There are often small "fights" but they are both not worn out by it and even enjoy them. This is typical for victim/agressor relationships (attraction / repulsion). A Se-PoLR would be worn out by such a person if he had to deal with such a behaviour on a constant basis.

[ouronis]

I'm exactly the same as you (except I probably am Ti). I'm going to side with the undercurrent of the thread that says to look more closely at how you personally handle things and to look at quadra values as less closely tied to the individual than to overall ideologies, which tend not to be expressed unless in a group setting and real life forced choice scenarios. And also take a look at the quadras and see that they don't exactly follow from the IEs. There is a lot of stuff that doesn't follow from the IEs but only tangentially relates that gets put into socionics. You may identify more with someone of your same temperament but across the quadra ponds, for example.

[Muddy]

I suppose the quadras are just our "default" setting. When I'm in a totally unfamiliar place with unfamiliar people I am a bit more gamma, as in I am more objective. I relate slightly more to Ni as base function than Ti which is one of the reasons I type as ILI. I'd say I'm pretty good with Ti although I don't take it very seriously, which would make sense if it is the demonstrative function. For example I'd love aceing a math test that everybody else failed, but I'd have absolutely zero interest in taking hardcore math classes.

[Taldoria]

There are no concrete examples included, so that's somewhat of a minus, but these descriptions are nonetheless fairly solid of how types react to stress.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...stance-Gulenko

[glam]

@Muddytextures i'm not saying you're not ILI (i don't have an opinion on your type), but i'd be careful about typing yourself ILI just because you play video games all day and don't socialize. i think a lot of shut-ins and/or depressed people could relate to this. in fact, if you're not going out into the "real world" that often, it's likely you'll have less interactions with others, and you'll have fewer relationships. a key part of socionics is communication and intertype relations - this is when you really see information compatibility (or lack thereof) come into play. so if you're not experiencing these things regularly, you might be missing out on experiences that would help you better determine your type.

your mom's description doesn't necessarily sound ESE, btw. any other Ej temperament (or another type entirely) could work just from the little info your shared. sorry, i only express this doubt because ever since i've been on this forum, it seems extremely typical for people to decide that their mother is an ESE, typically for unflattering reasons. for some reason it's like the throwaway type for people who are annoyed with their mothers. so i get skeptical

regarding Gamma quadra, i don't think characterizing the entire quadra as "businesslike" is what the descriptions are really trying to capture. = external situation of objects, = external activity of objects. Gamma is the only quadra that values two External + Extraverted elements. so together they result in this focus on the material aspect, or the hard "reality" of things, manipulating and using it to one's advantage.

in quadra progression, Gamma is described as a quadra of reform that implements their vision, moving resources and information, making things useful and productive again from a previously unsustainable or stagnant system. hence Gamma's association with mercantilism, business/money, etc., because that's how these values often manifest themselves in the "real world". admittedly this is a macro-level theory in socionics, and might not apply so well to the individual.

also, you say you don't like large social interaction - i'm pretty sure not all Alphas and Betas necessarily enjoy it either, so i wouldn't automatically associate this with Fe. you might get more relevant info on this by looking at people's instinct stackings.

[Muddy]

Lack of social experience is precisely the reason I'm having some trouble being sure of my type, so yeah, I seem to be a pretty difficult case. I'm sticking with ILI though, I see a lot of NT in myself and relate to Ni the most. As for my mother, yes, ESE sounds like lazy typing I know, but I have good reason to believe she is ESE. Si is extremely easy to see in her. She often talks about health topics, takes vitamins, distrust doctors and is often occupied with things like cleaning the house. She even works as a house cleaner. Definitely is ethical over logical. Behavior is more Ej then Ip. Conclusion: ESE with strong Si focus.

I know this is common question but I've never seen any definitive answers: Whats a surefire way to tell apart an LII from an ILI? I'm looking for a tangible answer not random socionics stuff.

Just for the hell of it I'm going to list the types I identify with from greatest to least:

ILI
LII
ILE
IEI
LSI
SLI
LIE
SEI
ESI
SLE
SEE
IEE
EIE
EII
ESE
LSE

[oldwhiskey]

Lack of social experience is precisely the reason I'm having some trouble being sure of my type, so yeah, I seem to be a pretty difficult case. I'm sticking with ILI though, I see a lot of NT in myself and relate to Ni the most. As for my mother, yes, ESE sounds like lazy typing I know, but I have good reason to believe she is ESE. Si is extremely easy to see in her. She often talks about health topics, takes vitamins, distrust doctors and is often occupied with things like cleaning the house. She even works as a house cleaner. Definitely is ethical over logical. Behavior is more Ej then Ip. Conclusion: ESE with strong Si focus.

I know this is common question but I've never seen any definitive answers: Whats a surefire way to tell apart an LII from an ILI? I'm looking for a tangible answer not random socionics stuff.

Just for the hell of it I'm going to list the types I identify with from greatest to least:

ILI
LII
ILE
IEI
LSI
SLI
LIE
SEI
ESI
SLE
SEE
IEE
EIE
EII
ESE
LSE

If we're using this post as a guide, I'd say it's a fair argument for Process/Evolutionary > Result/Involutionary, which would leave your list looking something like:

ILI
ILE
LSI
SEI
SEE
EIE
EII
LSE


LII
IEI
SLI
LIE
ESI
SLE
IEE
ESE

[ConcreteButterfly]

I know this is common question but I've never seen any definitive answers: Whats a surefire way to tell apart an LII from an ILI? I'm looking for a tangible answer not random socionics stuff.

ILIs are hypochondriacs. Also they'll sometimes change their argument to get an emotional reaction, arguing the opposite of what they actually believe, they're very experimental with other people's emotions (Same as SLIs), and deeply resist being similarly manipulated.

LIIs subconsciously send out helpless vibes when it comes to their health, they are more likely to say "I am not feeling well". ILIs rarely will, taking their state of health into their own hands. Both are bad at interpreting their body's signals though.

Another difference is Se polr vs Se seeking. ILIs are attracted to powerful, strong people, objects,things, they like dominance, although will rarely respond to it directly, becoming more inert in the face of it. LIIs fear power struggle and can get violent themselves if they feel attacked.