Example of a female SEE and her romantic behaviour.
She even calls herself a predator and her crush a victim.
What makes her seem like an introvert? She's very expressive and energetic, probably SEE-Fi.
I suppose the Fi subtype makes her appear a bit introverted at times?
The pseudo-aggressor theory is actually broken and not really true but rather is just a contrived means to try to force ideas on to the theory. Observe enough people and even talk to some on this forum it'' become apparent that there is no determinstic connection between the romance styles and types. "Aggressors"(Assertors) can be intuitves too and ESE & SEE can also be infantiles.
Last edited by Soupman; 03-17-2017 at 03:15 PM.
Being expressive is more of a sign of emotionality rather than I or E, ethical types display emotionality (logical types only do it under Superego & Superid circumstances). Secondly observationally the sensing vs intuitive divide is best understood as the extrovert vs introvert behavioural display. (EIE, LIE, ILE, IEE are all introverts behaviourally detached and succumbed in mental ideas)
As pure guess I'm inclined to think Jennifer Lawrence is in the ranges of SEI or ESI and on the lower probability SEE.
I find this graph useful for quickly determining the sensing/intuitive, logic/ethics, extroversion vs introversion
IEE-Fi and ILE-Ti will have moments of being "Aggressor-like", but in a playful way. (Not so much EII and LII, because of their PoLR.)
SEE-Fi and SLE-Ti will have moments of being "Childlike" and playful, but in an aggressive way. (Not so much ESI and LSI, because of their PoLR.)
IEI-Fe and ILI-Te will have moments of being "Caretaker-like", but in a self-conscious or passive way. (Not so much LIE and EIE, because of their PoLR.)
SEI-Fe and SLI-Te will have moments of being "Victim-like", but in caring/nurturing or guiding way. (Not so much ESE and LSE, because of their PoLR.)
Considering all this, it is indeed difficult to explain how Gamma NTs are "Pseudo-Aggressor", or Delta NFs "Pseudo-Caretaker".
I have observed those behaviours in individuals of those types, so I find it to be true. I am wondering whether the key here is – valuing the most efficient or appropriate method.
In that light, Gamma NTs see too much Victim behaviour and Delta NFs see too much Childlike behaviour as being inefficient, so they unconsciously try to be like the other style sporadically.
But this is just a theory, I am really not sure why they have adopted a "Pseudo"-ness.
She seems to display Demonstrative over Ignoring. You could argue she's got Creative Fe and is an SEI, however she seems to value , so that's out.
When it comes to the expression of emotionality, I find to be the key; both its placement and its strength matters.
From most to least outwardly expressive* (ime): ExFj > ExFp > IxFp > ExTp > ExTj > IxFj > IxTj > IxTp.
* That means through facial expressions like laughing, smiling; variation of voice intonation.
The louder, brighter, more varied and intense any of those elements, the more "outwardly expressive" the person.
The more monotone the voice and sporadic or weak the facial expressions, the less "outwardly expressive" the person.
By the way.. even though I sometimes doubt the subtype theory, because I see quite a few qualities of the Fe-subtype within myself too, I thought that an INFp-Ni might actually look or behave more like a Pseudo-Aggressor, because they are closer to a Gamma Victim as Fe is surpressed more. Just as the Fe subtype might appear more motherly, since they are closer to Alpha Caregivers. Would SLEs-Se then look more like a Gamma Aggressor? Just some thoughts I had.
And funnily I also thought Jennifer might be an SEE! Some of her facial expressions looked like the ones from SEEs I know. I kind of noticed that women might be typed the introverted subytpe more often, because in society we have to behave more calmly. Not sure though.
I could see that working for the Gamma NTs, but not so much for the Delta NFs. If Caretaker behaviour was inherently "soft" or more "ethical"-like, then why aren't Caretakers Pseudo-Childlike? Or are they... I've actually started calling female Gamma SFs (mostly the ESIs) "Pseudo Victim"... Generally I have found that the "Pseudo Aggressor" applies the best to LIE, not really to ILI; and "Pseudo Caretaker" applies the best to EII, not really to IEE. This has something to do with HA vs Dual Seeking, probably; the HA is more "active" and stronger than the Dual-seeking... It seems like to me the Pseudo-ness has something to do with the HA and applies to those types that value Te-Fi; at least that has been my experience. So... LIE is Pseudo-Aggressor, ESI is Pseudo-Victim, EII is Pseudo-Caretaker, LSE is Pseudo-Childlike... Needless to say, the Pseudo-stuff is a bit complex.
Your idea concerning the subtypes isn't bad, however the more boosted the Ni, the more Victim the person will be. This is the general principle. So even though an IEI-Ni has "weakened" Fe in comparison to IEI-Fe, they are the most Victim in the entire Socion. ILI-Ni would be the second most Victim. As I said, having boosted Ni makes you automatically more Victim. By that logic, an IEI-Ni couldn't be closer to Pseudo-Aggressor in their romantic/sexual behaviour, even though they may seem like a fake INTx when it comes to certain other (non-romantic) situations or their "vibe". Again, it is not the Rational IEs that determine Romance style; hence "weakened" Fe doesn't result in being like a Gamma. SLE-Se are the most Aggressor; yes, they can appear to be like SEEs when it comes to their overall "vibe", because of the "boosted" Fe; but their strong Se will prevent them from acting like a "Pseudo-victim" or anything of that sort.
I've found that most extroverts are the introverted Contact subtype, actually. I am not sure why. Is it really so simplistic and boils down to most extroverts wanting literally to engage in more "contact" with the outside world and other people...? It is much more difficult to find an extrovert with the extroverted (Inert) subtype, than an introvert with it. Most Inert (first function) subtype individuals are introverted, in my experience. And this has applied to all genders, sexual orientations, etc. One interesting thing is that most if not all introverts I've typed who are celebrities (aka in the entertainment industry etc.) are extroverted Contact subtype. But that makes sense; it would be difficult to come very far as a full-blown introvert in such an environment.
I don't buy that Gamma NTs are "pseudo-aggressors"... but how they act is explained well in Stratiyevskaya's Quadra Complexes:
It seems like what they do is muddle themselves and their partners in an intricate web of Ni chaos and confusion. Sometimes Beta NFs do the same thing, but they're more confident in ethical matters. And they keep digging and digging themselves into holes until no one can possibly make any decisions, especially their partners.
But often people get tired of them and eventually kick them out:
Well! It seems like no one is happy in the Gamma quadra.In ethical situations, they, as a rule, do not succeed in this.
A classic example of this inability to orient and navigate a complicated ethical situation is provided by the famous literary character Eugene Onegin (ILI, Balzac) – the hero of the eponymous novel in verses of Alexander Sergeevich Pushkin.
Not wishing to be bound by vows and striving under any conditions to be on top of the situation, Onegin by all means and methods tries to distance himself from Tatiana and performs a variety of actions (seemingly chaotic and controversial), that for him have irreversible and fatal consequences, as a result of which he makes Tatiana become a victim of circumstances, and himself falls victim of his own arbitrariness, that makes the so desired by him future closeness and reunification with Tatiana - impossible.
Getting carried away honing of his own "defensive capabilities" in the framework of the protection of personal freedoms and interests, ILI Balzac (introverted "negativist" "tactical" TIM) often becomes a prisoner of his own defenses. From time to time he sets up tests to check the strength of his "armor", allowing one of the potential partners to get close to him and then inviting them to destroy it as an obstacle. As a prize, he appears to them as a sort of "fairy-tale prince, imprisoned in The Black Tower" – kind, sympathetic, but very lonely man, endowed with many good qualities and advantages.
Following this, the ILI becomes a prisoner of his own loneliness, when after several long and fruitless attempts to "save" him many of his partners abandon all further efforts, considering this to be a hopeless waste of time. They leave him to himself, break off relations with him, and let him to continue to languish in the shell of his loneliness.
I actually met quite a few IEEs with very motherly tendencies.. also many SEE girls I know are submissive and "soft"/"motherly" in a way. At least in their every day life like described. Quite a few EIIs I know do not seem that 'caring' to me. My mother, who is an ESE-Fe, does have something very playful and childlike actually. A very funky humour, too. ESE-Si much less and they are much more serious and intellectual.. more like the "Teachers". 'Feelings' are seen as feminine and 'rational thoughts' are seen as masculine, that's why I had these thoughts.
I would have considered myself an INFp-Ni (and some friends who typed me said it suits me better as well), but I definitely see myself as the 'arrogant' victim, like to some guys I seem very soft and cute in the beginning.. and I barely take the initiative, at least when I am attracted to them, but at the same time I have a very arrogant and aggressive side about me that some men, whom I didn't find attractive but hit on me or something felt. Hard to describe, haha. Maybe it's just an age thing.
Oh well I believe I met quite a few inert-subtypes to be honest. SLE-Se, ESE-Fe, IEE-Ne, EIE-Fe (they really have an 'almost' ESE vibe going on) and so on.
Last edited by MaviTilki; 03-17-2017 at 04:43 PM.
fatti non foste a viver come bruti ma per seguir virtute e canoscenza
I can tell you that if I did pull that stunt and the girl actually did that I'd spend the next week thinking about how I'd propose marriage to her. Sometimes ya just gotta stop worrying and go all in y'know. If the SO passes a Shit Test of that magnitude ya gotta start thinking about rings on fingers, just sayin'...
I always HATED Pepe Le Pew! Chasing after someone who wants to be chased is one thing. THAT is another.
SEE-Se, 873 sx/so
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I always found Pepe Le Pew quite amusing. Overtly in love just because of ... and hounding it out as long as possible. Seems quite SEE.
I think in pictures, moving pictures...
Recommended Music - ILI-Ni
At the same time I remember some non-aggressor guy, who found me interesting from a distance, but since I always clam up in a 'hunt' (due to inexperience and shyness) and since I didn't have the balls to go any further myself, it cooled down to just awkward smiles in the corridor (he was an INFj guy, I believe). For example he tried to stand beside me in a group setting (to finally talk to me I guess), but since it was so obvious and too many other people around make me nervous when it's about an exposing moment like that even though it's just talking (at least for me..because I can feel the interest of the other person) I just unobtrusively positioned myself next to another person.. we played that game a few times, then we had to go inside a hall where our university class was waiting in front of. After a few more glances and awkward moments I think he gave up lol. But I actually felt right from the beginning that his 'softness' might not really be my thing in the long run, so I was very flaky and doubtful about him from the get go (IEI moments haha).
Same happened with an SLE guy, because he only knew me for a few hours, even though he tried really hard, I am the kind of person who cannot decide within a few hours in a pressuring and unfamiliar atmosphere (like alone on a party, sober and tired as fuck, attractive guy attention.. too much input.. I am slow and doubting on deciding.. which sucks for one time chances lel). Thus coming across like a very boring and uptight nerd, because overwhelming situations. I believe SLEs really have to be exposed to an IEI for a long time to see their good qualities, to really hunt them down (if there is no sexual interaction, which reels them in sooner).
Had this with an SLE guy who apparently liked me for years and didn't forget about me after high school either, besides knowing so many of my bad sides too. When I found out or realised he had a thing for me, I actually felt a lot of admiration, like "Wow someone knows about so many of my bad sides, yet they like and 'watch' me.. that's so cool.. and kinda cute". I really admire persistent people.
But yes oh my goodness do I feel like running when someone shows interest in me and yet I am so excited at the inside. Very twisted feelings, haha. Also it might just be me, but I feel like I cannot speak when confronted with someone "attractive", who shows romantic interest in me. I become very awkward lmao. I do not have problem talking to and entertaining people, whom I just see in a friends way or who show no interest in me.. but as soon as I feel like the other person might want to get closer to the real me it feels as if all these hidden expectations are waiting for me (might just be me and my age though and not related to socionics at all lol).
Last edited by MaviTilki; 03-21-2017 at 09:16 AM.
@Suz when I wasn't part of this forum yet, I read your story about you meeting your dual (SLE) in a work environment. The things you talked about, especially the SLE piercing eyes, which stare you down (it's weird but their cold and beautiful eyes, I can feel them going right through me.. even when I am in dreamy mode lol). I really related to that too. I saw you switching between Beta and Delta, but actually.. the story back then helped me to understand SLE behaviour even better, it lined up with some of my experiences as well. You might really be an IEI after all. ;D
@MaviTilki: The feelings of blank headedness and sudden awkwardness around Attractive People(tm) are just a human thing. The rest can be your disturbed* Ni-dom shit though.
*I do kid.
Reason is a whore.
And yeah I guess that blank headedness and black out thing is just a general thing.. combined with my age and the inexperience.
Last edited by MaviTilki; 03-21-2017 at 06:15 PM.
when i came to the forum I self-typed IEI because i "converted" my fairly reliable MBTI typing of INFJ to socionics INFp per socionics.com suggestion, but at the time i didn't resonate much with some of the other betas i was interacting with and some were downright nasty & abusive (although i did bond quite a bit with another IEI - redbaron). However, since then i've come to realize that people can mistype themselves and others, and other psychiatric conditions including various personality disorders may have made the toxic individuals come across the way they did as well. I've also since found resonance with other people who self-type beta over the years - golden, aylen, to name a couple people who come immediately to mind (Pink, if she's actually beta). I've also come to realize that the way i perceive certain concepts may not be the way the perception was intended... so i've given up on definitively typing myself (and others).
I do remember that "stare of passion" that guy had given me, like it was yesterday. thanks for reminding it about it - it is a nice memory. I got scared and shy when that happened, but if he had persisted, he would have found out I really did like him a lot and we could have been together. He didn't though -- maybe he had his reasons -- we were much too different (he was an ex frat boy, heavy drinker), and i was going to be movng away in a couple months. It's been almost 8 years since then, and a lot has happened - he's gotten in trouble with the law because of his alcohol abuse, and he's not the kind of guy I'd want to be around anymore, so maybe it's for the better. That said, if we ended up together, maybe he would be healthier. Or maybe I would be miserable. Who knows.
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