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Thread: Two questions about SEEs/ESFps behavior

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    Default Two questions about SEEs/ESFps behavior

    Two questions please

    1. What is happening to a friend who is SEE who is married to an SLI and is cleaning compulsively and frantically? He's wondering when it will stop

    2. An SEE friend who is with an LSE can't trust his assessment of their child's health without the assessment of a doctor. Do SEE just not trust anyone who is not a professional?

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    M-m-m-my opinion is that the SEE is HOT!

    lol

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    Two answers.

    1. What is happening is the cleaner is trying to eliminate all sources of personal discomfort and ill health from the house. It'll stop when the cleaner moves out, because the dust is not the source of the discomfort.

    2. The SEE probably doesn't trust his own or the LSE's judgement regarding the state of his child's teeth, and wants a professional opinion. Has the LSE given the impression of being negligent toward his kids welfare?

    I'm sorry if these answers seem pessimistic. They are based on personal experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    2. An SEE friend who is with an LSE can't trust his assessment of their child's health without the assessment of a doctor. Do SEE just not trust anyone who is not a professional?
    Her LSE husband has strong Si but that doesn't give him medical school education, hospital internships, and the experience that a pediatrician has had working with children. Even if she is not SEE but SEI, why should this child's mother trust the word of someone who's had little to no experience healing sick children over that of a medical professional? It's not good mothering practice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Two questions please

    1. What is happening to a friend who is SEE who is married to an SLI and is cleaning compulsively and frantically? He's wondering when it will stop

    2. An SEE friend who is with an LSE can't trust his assessment of their child's health without the assessment of a doctor. Do SEE just not trust anyone who is not a professional?
    Let me answer #2:

    This has got to do with S.Id Te. I can feel it in me that I trust official sources FAR more than anyone else no matter if that someone else knows MUCH MUCH more than the official source. Te suggestives like you(I take it that you know it) will be especially weak towards official sources, but even HAs are weak to that.

    But this applies to all these types: ESI, SEE, EII, IEE(Te S.Id). Overall:

    The answer is yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodor Berza View Post
    M-m-m-my opinion is that the SEE is HOT!

    lol
    Lol....you can have SEE cake

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Let me answer #2:

    This has got to do with S.Id Te. I can feel it in me that I trust official sources FAR more than anyone else no matter if that someone else knows MUCH MUCH more than the official source. Te suggestives like you(I take it that you know it) will be especially weak towards official sources, but even HAs are weak to that.

    But this applies to all these types: ESI, SEE, EII, IEE(Te S.Id). Overall:

    The answer is yes.
    What do official sources have to do with (external activity of objects)? If trusting official sources is linked to an IE I would take without in the ego because is static and evaluates strenght / power and that something becomes an official source it has to have a certain power / strenght. Elseway it wouldnt be an official source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    This is one of the things I hate most about SEEs. They are virtually incapable of judging who is competent or not, and rather than make objective assessments based on the merit of what someone says, they make decisions by the hierarchy. With leading Se, they respect power systems, and will base their decisions upon those who have social authority. They are unable to determine if what an authoritative figure says make sense or not (Ti PoLR), and oftentimes will blindly trust those with power. SEEs can be led astray and manipulated. They don't stand up against others by the merit and strength of their own beliefs and systems (Ti), but will oftentimes check the opinions of those in power and with authority, in order to keep relations and trust the 'professionals' in a Te-valuing way.

    I'll add a personal story: at work, I used to do job function 'A', we'll call it, which affected managers doing job function 'B'. The company restructured, and I got promoted to a new role, in which I had an SEE supervisor. When it came time to do job function 'A' again, the SEE supervisor didn't trust my opinion on what was best, even though I used to do the exact thing before, and my opinion was completely trusted by other managers doing job function 'B'. She went to those same managers and asked their opinion. Why? Because they were officially managers. (Ironically, some of those managers came back to me to ask my opinion behind the SEE's back, so it was ultimately still my decision, and just a lot of pointless corporate politics and ego-massaging) SEEs aren't able to gauge competency at all, even when someone is doing something they already know how to do and has done in the past. Again, they discredit personal experiences and memories an an Si-ignoring way and simply go by the hierarchy/'professionals'.
    Certainly the do stand up. It's just not what judges but and that probably disturbs you.

    To your RL example. Maybe the SEE aware of the hirarchy just wanted to doubleecheck with the authorities, that the SEE wouldn't be to blame if you had failed. Strategically not such a dumb action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    True. The SEE does this though with ALL decisions, big or small. Even the smallest decisions, 'must' go to the authorities. It's like they allow no judgment calls.
    Ok. Doesn't sound like the SEEs I know. Probably it's more personality/intelligence related than Socionics-Type related because I could imagine several types acting like this when the are somehow uncomfortable to judge things in their working environment

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaftPunk View Post
    What do official sources have to do with (external activity of objects)? If trusting official sources is linked to an IE I would take without in the ego because is static and evaluates strenght / power and that something becomes an official source it has to have a certain power / strenght. Elseway it wouldnt be an official source.
    Official is both Se and Te. It requires both to become official and to stand the test of time. Ofc, it won't be obviously located all in one person.

    I meant official sources such as: "You have a problem with a car? Go to automechanic. Got a problem with teeth? Go to dentist. etc". I meant that you go to people whose operating proceedures are perfected by practice and are much more than simple understanding. An average automechanic has more practical knowledge about fixing cars than even the most passionate of petrolheads. See? Basic Te vs Ti. It was much more about seeking practical knowledge and advice about those. Such as: I'd like an advice about my anger problem. But from someone who actually has a degree in it and can give me a practical advice. I have no need for self understanding, guru like advices or for medicaments. Neither will solve anything and if I am to advance, I need practical advices. I trust it's like that for all Te S.Id types.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Let me answer #2:

    This has got to do with S.Id Te. I can feel it in me that I trust official sources FAR more than anyone else no matter if that someone else knows MUCH MUCH more than the official source. Te suggestives like you(I take it that you know it) will be especially weak towards official sources, but even HAs are weak to that.

    But this applies to all these types: ESI, SEE, EII, IEE(Te S.Id). Overall:

    The answer is yes.
    I see this is SEE. I see it in ESI. Not really in EII and not at all in me, IEE. In fact, I am way more likely to question authority. I question the whole institution, I question the character of the persons running the institution, and I am watching, watching for more info that tells me I can trust, and in which particular situations this is okay..
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I see this is SEE. I see it in ESI. Not really in EII and not at all in me, IEE. In fact, I am way more likely to question authority. I question the whole institution, I question the character of the persons running the institution, and I am watching, watching for more info that tells me I can trust, and in which particular situations this is okay..
    So, this is characteristic for Gamma?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    So, this is characteristic for Gamma?
    I don't know. I don't know enough LIEs IRL... maybe @Adam Strange has an opinion. The ILIs I know do lean towards this characteristic, though. I just see it pronounced in all the SEEs I know, and in the one ESI I know well. I had an alternative health argument once with both ILI and SEE being rather horrified that I would discount known health authorities...

    This method of authority-seeking would work fine for the SEE if they have good trustworthy professionals in their life. We all have blind spots we need to compensate for. Trusting in authority can often work for them in this. Also perhaps their Duals help them see things they don't notice.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    This is one of the things I hate most about SEEs. They are virtually incapable of judging who is competent or not, and rather than make objective assessments based on the merit of what someone says, they make decisions by the hierarchy. With leading Se, they respect power systems, and will base their decisions upon those who have social authority. They are unable to determine if what an authoritative figure says make sense or not (Ti PoLR), and oftentimes will blindly trust those with power. SEEs can be led astray and manipulated. They don't stand up against others by the merit and strength of their own beliefs and systems (Ti), but will oftentimes check the opinions of those in power and with authority, in order to keep relations and trust the 'professionals' in a Te-valuing way.
    This is a good explanation. And it fits with the SEEs I know. But, its not anything I hate about them. I just see it as a differing way of dealing with reality than mine, and I accommodate it. For example, my husband's SEE daughter trusts doctors. I see this as a negative for her, and for her daughter, because I think some of the directions she follows from them are wrong. I know this rather intuitively, and an attempt at a scientific explanation would be unwieldy and would include challenging what she holds dear (also what makes her feel safe; to trust authority). So I sense no "opening" to discuss it - if feels to me like a subject I cannot broach and would not have success with, so, I don't say anything. Anyway her health and her daughter's is her jurisdiction. However, I can make suggestions for particular alternative health enhancements that her doctors would not find challenging to their authority/protocol. Especially if they are easy to use and even more so if I provide them for free!

    This making decisions by hierarchy is so foreign to me. I seem to have a mistrust of authority. And social authority - I am sort of "whatever" about that. I have greater respect for individuality and individual choices. My mistrust of authority also means when I find a person in authority who has character and is trustworthiness I highly esteem them. They are a gift to the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I'll add a personal story: at work, I used to do job function 'A', we'll call it, which affected managers doing job function 'B'. The company restructured, and I got promoted to a new role, in which I had an SEE supervisor. When it came time to do job function 'A' again, the SEE supervisor didn't trust my opinion on what was best, even though I used to do the exact thing before, and my opinion was completely trusted by other managers doing job function 'B'. She went to those same managers and asked their opinion. Why? Because they were officially managers. (Ironically, some of those managers came back to me to ask my opinion behind the SEE's back, so it was ultimately still my decision, and just a lot of pointless corporate politics and ego-massaging) SEEs aren't able to gauge competency at all, even when someone is doing something they already know how to do and has done in the past.
    I can see how this would be frustrating!

    Oh, well, us being ourselves is super-annoying to about the same number of types for all of us. Just becaseu we are getting along GREAT with people in our circle does not mean it has to do anything with us being so great. It may well just mean we are with types we get along with easily... Socionics is so equalizing...

    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Again, they discredit personal experiences and memories in a Si-ignoring way and simply go by the hierarchy/'professionals'.
    Yes. I have seen this!
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I don't know. I don't know enough LIEs IRL... maybe @Adam Strange has an opinion. The ILIs I know do lean towards this characteristic, though. I just see it pronounced in all the SEEs I know, and in the one ESI I know well. I had an alternative health argument once with both ILI and SEE being rather horrified that I would discount known health authorities...

    This method of authority-seeking would work fine for the SEE if they have good trustworthy professionals in their life. We all have blind spots we need to compensate for. Trusting in authority can often work for them in this. Also perhaps their Duals help them see things they don't notice.
    The only authorities I don't trust are: one crazy shit sellout pediatrician who used to test drugs on me while I was young(I almost died, fk her! Actually no, don't fk her! Fking should be a nice thing, she deserves a dagger!) and a professor from high school who was clearly psycho(he literally got off on people getting Fs)-funny thing, that same professor who used to teach just one subject during previous principal, got stunning six to seven subjects under the new one! Classic psycho!

    ...interesting find! I'd never mistrust in authorities unless they gave me a clear and irrefutable proof that they shouldn't be trusted.

    I can't escape gamma so easily...

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    Uh....if my child were sick and I couldn't figure out what was going on myself and fix it in a minor way.. I'm taking them to the Dr where they can have their labs checked. This "hierarchy" discussion is quite ludicrous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Uh....if my child were sick and I couldn't figure out what was going on myself and fix it in a minor way.. I'm taking them to the Dr where they can have their labs checked. This "hierarchy" discussion is quite ludicrous.
    It's actually not. You, fellow Gamma, reacted as expected.

    ...interesting.

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    Ftr..I'm talking about very high fever..junky lungs... altered mental status...decreased urine output after giving various fluids..if they fell and hit their head etc... not a common cold. ...I work in an ICU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Ftr..I'm talking about very high fever..junky lungs... altered mental status...decreased urine output after giving various fluids..if they fell and hit their head etc... not a common cold. ...I work in an ICU.
    Let's elevate it a bit:

    Say that a doctor of...Dr.House quality moved in next to you. Your child began to show acute and strange symptoms. Where will you take it? To Dr.House next door or to hospital?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nondescript View Post
    Let's elevate it a bit:

    Say that a doctor of...Dr.House quality moved in next to you. Your child began to show acute and strange symptoms. Where will you take it? To Dr.House next door or to hospital?
    Let's elevate it even furtherrrrrr: does Dr House have blood lab in his house? If so... Sure why not... Unless he's a dick. But honestly... Probably wouldn't need a Dr House type... Maybe just need antibiotics for a bacterial infection (if it's confirmed to be bacterial and not a viral source). Really depends on the circumstance.

    Anyways you are thinking too black and white about it. (As is Marista...as is William). Yay!

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Uh....if my child were sick and I couldn't figure out what was going on myself and fix it in a minor way.. I'm taking them to the Dr where they can have their labs checked. This "hierarchy" discussion is quite ludicrous.
    This is just good common sense. I know someone, who I happen to think is an idiot sometimes, who poured straight bleach on a child's arm and wrapped it to kill ringworm. Left a burn that scarred the kid. That kind of stuff just annoys me. A quick google search would have pulled up an over the counter cream to use or they should have taken him to the doctor if they couldn't figure out a better way than burn it off. grrrr

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Let's elevate it even furtherrrrrr: does Dr House have blood lab in his house? If so... Sure why not... Unless he's a dick. But honestly... Probably wouldn't need a Dr House type... Maybe just need antibiotics for a bacterial infection (if it's confirmed to be bacterial and not a viral source). Really depends on the circumstance.

    Anyways you are thinking too black and white about it. (As is Marista...as is William). Yay!
    It's ok if I think in BnW, but mari and will? Ego Ne's thinking in BnW lol? I must've misunderstood something or someone is mistyped.

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