Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Compatibility and Duality

  1. #1
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mind
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    568 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default Compatibility and Duality

    http://www.socioniko.net/ru/articles/sovmdual.htm

    Compatibility and Duality
    Introduction to psihofunktsionalnyh (psychofunctional) interactions.


    Gulenko VV , VV Meged 1995

    1.0.

    Practical socionics research and consultation has led us to the conclusion that the compatibility and duality - not identical concepts. Areas of manifestations of these processes lie in different layers of the psychological scope of the individual.

    In our previous work, in particular in the article "The number of types in sociological analysis" (1990), we provide 4 levels of manifestation of personality - information, social, psychological and psycho-physical.Information and psychological levels, which are reflected in sociomodel in blocks Ego and Superid occupy the internal volume of the individual and the social and psycho-physical, which correspond to the blocks Superego and Id, are located the outer shell.

    This model of the psyche will take the form of four nested spaces of identity, two of which form the inner core, and the other two - its outer layer. This is the projection of the model on the plane:


    Code:
                       +----------+---------+
                       |  Kernel  | Shell   |
                       +-----+----+----+----+
                       | Ego |    |    |    |
                       +-----+    |    |    |
                       | SuperID  |    |    |
                       +----------+    |    |
                       |            ID |    |
                       +---------------+    |
                       |           SuperEgo |
                       +--------------------+
    CORE

    EGO - rigid frame of the person that defines the way of information exchange, virtually unchanged throughout life. Capable of marking, imprint on the plastic part of the psyche of others.

    SUPERID - mobile, "soft" layer of the psyche, which initially contains only archetypes - information prints preceding evolution. Tabula rasa, on which traces of accumulated information on the identity of the outside influences.

    SHELL

    ID - part of the psyche, which manages the personal space of a person that exists within the informal (close) communicative distance. Vividly the psychic layer appears in animals as a reluctance to allow outsiders into their territory.

    SUPEREGO - part of the psyche, which forms the external behaviors of the person are used to adapt to a particular society. Acting either within the formal communicative distance, or in a foreign invasion of personal space.

    Based on this model, we can now make a clear distinction between duality and compatibility. By duality we understand the internal options of the same type of mentality to others, and by compatibility - additional external one type of behavior to others. Therefore, there may be, on the one hand, the types of dual mentality incompatible social behavior, and the other - compatible forms of social behavior on the psychological types of non-duality.

    So, inner complementarity - a concerted effort blocks Ego and Superid interacting sociotypes. External complementarity - coordinated work of the id and superego blocks sociotypes. Full complementarity - a concerted effort of all four units. Traditional socionics table intertype relationships recorded only one type of complementarity (optional) - internal. We offer you a justification for the appearance of complementarity, which for practical socionics, solve problems real compatibility is often more important than the duality. The real compatibility, unlike the static nature of duality is psihofunktsionalny.

    Such an approach clarifies the confusion evoked earlier cases when representatives of dual sociotypes could not if they wanted to get along fine, and vice versa, and even conflict reviznye sotsiotipy cooperate effectively. An example of the latter is, in particular, and this article, the authors of which are sotsiotipam LII and IEA.

    2.0.

    Socionics as an integrated discipline of the individual, in our opinion, should integrate itself both types of complementarity. How to describe the compatibility is not theoretical, but practical, real? We have analyzed the many approaches in the description (psihofunktsionalnogo) psychofunctional level by different authors: T.Liri, G.Ayzenka, R.Kettela and other. It should be reminded that under (psihofunktsionalnym) psychofunctional level of personality manifestation, we understand the way people interact in a long time in a limited area. Examples: crew, family, group travel, mates, etc. Comparing these approaches to the best of our experience, we came to the conclusion that in order to determine the compatibility (psihofunktsionalnom) psychofunctional level is necessary and sufficient to enter into the machine (sotsioniki) socionics two new binary scale.

    What is the scale? They are a generalization of the two dimensions of personality, which generally agree the above-mentioned researchers. For T.Liri stops on axes "anger-love" and "strength - weakness" G.Ayzenk "extraversion - introversion" and "neuroticism" R.Kettel QI "eksviya-inviya" and QII "trevozhnost- fitness" R.Akoff and F.Emeri - "externality- internality" and "objectivity - subjectivity." Our scale, which we have developed for socionic practice called "an initiality - terminality" and "ignoring - connectivity." All of the above measure of personal space can be represented as different projections for consideration to the proposed system of coordinates. Consider both (psihofunktsionalnye) psychofunctional scale basis.

    2.1.

    "An initiality - terminality" can be called a scale acceleration. The initiators - options sociotypes gravitating towards an initial pole - are carriers of negative acceleration behavior: they develop the most productive in the early work. The closer to the completion of the work, the more they "run out of steam," looking for a new point of application of forces tend to switch, parallel to instigate new business. Terminators - options sociotypes settling on a scale closer to the pole "terminal" - on the contrary, did not immediately included in the new job requires a certain internal training, but if you have drawn, their productivity is on the increase and they effectively bring it started to end. This type of social behavior with positive acceleration.

    Considering measure on this scale, each sociotype splits into two subtypes. Thus obtained subtypes have already briefly described in the article "On the question of subtypes" (1990). Level 32 has long been used by us in socionics consultations. A year ago, it was presented at a conference in Sventoji. We are talking about social cut personality, which is used to predict the compatibility of formal production teams. Under such circumstances, the communication distance of communication is quite close, but there is no limit on the length of stay on it: the increasing contradictions it can easily be increased.

    2.2.

    "Ignoring - connectivity" - a range of feedback, which describes the interaction of man with the environment. In "ignorers" - version sociotypes, gravitating to the pole "ignoring" - a sign of a positive feedback: the more the surrounding come to meet him, the more he pays attention to them, and the less they are interested in, the less the response to external stimuli.

    Hazvanie "ignorers" chosen us because this option sociotypes generally poorly accounts for the effect of the external environment - "ignore" it. He does not have a persistent desire to bind the people even liked him. It is slightly adaptable people who can not adequately adapt to environmental changes. He owns only the simplest type of feedback type "yes" or "no-no".

    "Ignorers" converges easily with people (not necessarily on its own!), but just as easy, and parted with them. It is quite self-contained, inclined to pursue its independent line, not paying attention, make it even close people around him or not.

    "Connector" (from the English. "Connection" - link) - version sociotypes, tending to the pole, "connectivity", well able, if necessary, adjust to the changing environment. He has not so much positive as negative feedback: responsive to the increase in abnormalities, reducing the available means. The less people go around to meet him, the more he pays attention to it, it is activated.

    Pronounced "connector" or he is very affectionate, or actively seeks to bind the interest of his people. Such a person needs a certain time to enter the "engagement" with the other person, but if he met someone very strives to keep steady satisfied with his attitude or his own showing tolerance, or causing others to do so.

    When taking into account of the scale of each of the 32 sociotypes again broken in half, forming as a result of 64 variants of the individual. This amount of options is enough to describe satisfactorily (psihofunktsionalny) psychofunctional level of human interaction.

    3.0.


    For greater clarity, we give an outline of Education four subtypes based on the above two orthogonal scales:
    Code:
                         Ignoring
                               |
                            AI | IT
                               |
             Initiating- - - - + ---- terminality
                               |
                            CI | CT
                               |
                         connectivity


    3.1.

    Connectivity initiator (CI) - is an energetic, assertive, determined within their social type person who sets himself clear, realistic goals, and usually achieve them. He is able to quickly and accurately analyze the situation and focuses on large-scale, mainly in the task at hand. Ha stuff is not exchanged. For CI characterized by a strong pragmatic orientation, focus on their own interests. This leads to the fact that towards the end it neglects any available means. Bright subtype, especially if it is sensation, able to walk to his goal over the heads of others.

    Through an initial CI has a strong need to be right, and thanks to connectivity - to manage the situation. This combination makes him a man, constantly vying for glory, honor, influence. In any case, for which CI is taken, it has an underlying installation of victory. It is part of the risk, it is impatient and does not tolerate those who hesitate in making decisions. KI hardly recognize his mistakes, but success is learning what interested. He developed the ambition: often seeks to acquire a high position, a prestigious status. The desire to make a career - a characteristic feature of this subtype of men.

    In what follows we call this the dominant subtype and denoted D (from the English. "Dominate" - dominion, rule). Dominant subtype can manifest itself in two main varieties - DX and DY. The hallmark of DX - immediately attempts authoritarian control and domination, but in case of failure can take a flexible position. A feature of DY - first part of the trust, a man tying one way or another, and only then exhibits authoritarian features.

    3.2.

    Ignorativny initiator (AI) - a creative, enthusiastic, looking for people. His attention is not fixed on the details, figures, facts and rigorous proofs. Something simplifying AI builds holistic concepts and images that have internal proportionality and harmony. He has been a strong tendency to synthesis - combining various, sometimes quite similar ideas and the creation of new and original. Because of its AI ignorativnosti little inclined to make concessions. On the contrary, he often sharpens the conflict, paying no attention to the allegations. He is sarcastic, witty. For this subtype is very important inflow of new experiences that give him the material for the synthesis. There is nothing more boring for him immutability, routine instructions. Interest in him prevails over use.

    AI - tireless preacher of his ideas, grouping like-minded people. However, it lacks diplomacy: he is quick-tempered, short-tempered in defending their theories and proposals, especially when it comes to extrovert.Because of initial AI also lacks persistence and consistency to implement their plans in life. This subtype will henceforth be called creative and denoted C (from the English. "Create" - create, create).

    3.3.

    Ignorativny terminator (IT) - a man of order, system integrity and accuracy. It is characterized by hard work, diligence, and responsibility. Arising out of the terminal patient and methodical, the need to bring the follow through make it a competent specialist in your field.

    IT has a desire for clear and reliable information. He always tries to bring order to the region, with which it has to face. All available information is usually systematized, placed on shelves. Especially clearly expressed in the quality of logic. System and Analysis - its strengths. IT computes a result or obtains it by many observations or experiments. He tries not to miss a single link in the chain of reasoning, and when others do, have difficulty in understanding. IT is very attentive to detail, details.

    IT usually likes to clear mode, he does not like unexpected surprises - the usual or intended change the course of events. He always organizes, arranges as best people and things around them. The types of work, where there are deadlines, determined by access to information and equipment, there are instructions for action, IT surpasses all other subtypes.

    This subtype will be called normalizing and denoted by N (from the English. "Normalize" - to organize).

    3.4.

    Connectivity terminator (CT) - a man, the main value of which is peace, harmony and well-being of their own and their loved ones. CT - the most benevolent subtype, keeping the stability of the family, team, group.

    CT is able to listen to people, to show their understanding of their problems, to empathize with someone else's joy and sorrow. Especially these qualities are seen in ethics. Through connectivity CT quite affectionate, sensitive to changes in the external environment, is doing everything in its power to restore the lost peace.

    For this reason, it sometimes lacks firmness, integrity. As a result of the CT is prone to self-incrimination, reflection. Although this subtype, and does not aspire to power, but becomes a passionate defender of the people and be firm when violated the laws of justice and morality. Subtype CT peculiar and best spiritual qualities. This is a man who is capable of self-sacrifice, refuses personal gain for the benefit of others, if he sees that they need it most. Although he is a good psychologist or a diplomat, but weak in political games, when you need to act not only flexible, but quickly and decisively, without fear to destroy the established status quo.

    This subtype will be called harmonizing and denote H (from the English. "Harmonize" - harmonize).

    4.0.

    Finally, consider the actual question of subtype relations, and concluded that the procedural regularity of compatibility of people, regardless of their basic type.

    Obviously, each subtype may enter into communication with the other three subtypes and subtype identity itself. Thus, there are four groups (psihofunktsionalnyh) psychofunctional relationship, namely:

    1) equal cooperation,

    2) cooperation in terms of management,

    3) and the confrontation

    4) heterogeneous group of identical relations.

    The full set, they are presented in a so-called (psihofunktsionalnoy) psychofunctional quadra. Here are her scheme where relations of cooperation, or equivalence marked "<->" attitude of confrontation - "|", the management, or the implication - "->":
    Code:
                    C ----> N
                    |          |
                    D ----> H
    And now characterize the resulting group relations.

    4.1. Equal partnership (equivalence).

    D <-> N, ie, D-N-subtype equivalent subtype. N follows through D, organizes experience, always has the information to make informed decisions. At the same time, because of its stability and rigidity can easily withstand the pressure D, sends it into the mainstream of law and order.

    C <-> H, ie, C-H-equivalent subtype subtype. C gratefully accepts attentive and caring H, who readily responded to his initiative in the case. H, in turn, appreciates C for his enthusiasm, passion, originality.

    4.2. Confrontation (non-equivalence of the sum modulo 2).

    D \ / C, i.e. D-subtype is not equivalent to C-subtype. Aspiring to subordinate to its influence the course of events D encounters with independent C, which opposes his sober calculation exciting, but long-term outlook. D C considers frivolous and weak man, and CD authoritarian egomaniac.

    N \ / H, i.e. N-subtype is not equivalent to H-subtype. The cause of confrontation - the opposite direction in the behavior. N especially appreciates the interests of business and routine, and H - good relations, peace and comfort. As a result, N H considers unorganized and irresponsible man, and HN soulless bureaucrat.

    4.3. Management (implication).

    C -> N, i.e. C-N-subtype implies subtype. This kind of management is democratic. Hovye ideas and projects C can be made clear and consistent, not lose sight of the details of N. These relationships are good for the business sector, but quickly deteriorated in an informal setting.

    D - / -> H, ie, D-subtype implies H-subtype. This kind of management is authoritarian. Ha practice, this means that the active and decisive actions to achieve the objective D, which generate a lot of discontent and disharmony around, can be improved and smoothed seeking stability in H. H informal relationships quickly came under the influence confident D.

    4.4. Identical relations.

    There are four: HH, NN, CC and DD. This group is heterogeneous relations in the degree of compatibility. The easiest way to get on two harmonizing subtype and did not get on the two dominant. On this basis all relationships are built in a row, starting with the most compatible to the least consistent: H \ / H, N / \ N, C / C, D | D.

    Two H-subtypes bind relationships disjunction \ / - mutual respect and recognition of each other's rights. Compatibility in this relationship is lost only when the two are passive.

    Two subtypes of N-linked ratio of conjunction / \ - mechanical sum, cool to each other, sometimes reaching up to indifference. Compatibility is saved only when both are making to this effort.

    Two C-subtype linked attitude that language of mathematical logic called antikonyunktsiey (Sheffer stroke "/"). Ha practice, it manifests itself as a mutual interest in each other. Compatibility in this respect can only be guaranteed if the division of spheres of influence, ie, when one is active and the other passive, passive or both.

    Two D-subtype bind ratio, which in mathematical logic called antidizyunktsiya (Pierce arrow "|"), and means in practice slight to each other as a result of competition. Compatibility in this pair is maintained only provided that both partners are passive. Now imagine all 16 psihofunktsionalnyh elations in tabular form:


    Code:
                    + --- + ----- + ----- + ----- + ----- +
                    |     | D     | C     |     N |     H |
                    + --- + ----- + ----- + ----- + ----- +
                    | D   | |     | \ /   | <->   | / ->  |
                    + --- + ----- + ----- + ----- + ----- +
                    | C   | \ /   | /     | ->    | <->   |
                    + --- + ----- + ----- + ----- + ----- +
                    | N   | <->   | <-    | / \   | \ /   |
                    + --- + ----- + ----- + ----- + ----- +
                    | H   | <- /  | <->   | \ /   | \ /   |
                    + --- + ----- + ----- + ----- + ----- +
    5.0.

    And last, but not least, a problem that inevitably arises in dealing with the socionic typology. Everyone knows that the human psyche - the formation of a mobile. How do we reconcile the fact of personality dynamics in time and fixity sociotypes? Ha this legitimate question has no reasonable enough response available socionic literature in the framework of our theory, we can respond to it as follows. Subtype able to evolve. This semi-rigid formation, which may change under the influence of natural environment or focused education. The speed of evolution, however. small: for an explicit shift subtype need a lot of years. Obviously if this occurs, no more than 1 - 2 times a person's life.

    Evolution basically goes on the scale of "ignorativnost-connectivity." If you are exploring the psychological type of person you will find that this scale is not defined, which means that a person is in an intermediate state. If this state for one reason or another is delayed for a long time, there is a fifth subtype - transition. We shall denote it 0.

    Zero subtype - is, in fact, difficult to predict the manifestation of the person of each of the four subtypes of normal - D, C, N or H. Internally - people is not satisfied with the way of life they lead today. 0 subtype - a man without a rod. It has, as a rule, low self-esteem and looking for a new lifestyle. This subtype is often an intermediate stage, after which a person can reach a new level of development. Ha respects zero structure is reflected in the negative. A person in a state of transition is equally difficult to get along with any of the usual psycho. Greater understanding, however, he finds with H-subtype, which tends to smooth out sharp angles and respected man of his quest Ya

    And now let's summarize. Having learned the theory psihofunktsionalnyh interactions, you gather a lot of interesting things for themselves. Subtype relationship unlike intertype much more pronounced and therefore easily identifiable.

    We have found that when a person describes what he has and how he acts, he usually says from his inner self, and therefore easier to see its internal type. And when a person describes the co-operation and relationships with other people, it is better to see his psihofunktsionalnaya shape and clearly show through 16 of subtype relationships. Quite clearly evident difference motives, on the one hand, and its results, on the other.

    All practitioners sotsionike for learning level 64, we recommend to analyze the circle of close and distant acquaintances and by comparing actual to establish relations with the above subtypes to identify their relatives and friends. As practice shows, a brief description of the subtype similar driven us is enough.

    The proposed method will bring you a lot of joy of recognition and respond to the many "why" that have emerged in the comparison pealnyh relations and predictable methods 16 tipnye socionics.

  2. #2
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,520
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is Greek to me.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  3. #3
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,938
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    This probably includes the most comprehensive and clear descriptions of the DCNH subtypes I've yet read (I don't believe I've seen it in another form?): I suggest that the relevant section has each subtype more clearly labelled and/or that the four descriptions are excerpted to a new article or a wiki-page.

    @mu4, @silke
    Last edited by Subteigh; 02-02-2016 at 07:27 PM.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  4. #4
    epheme's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Japan
    TIM
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    431
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    This article has the following:

    Connectivity initiator (CI) - as Dominant

    Ignorativny initiator (AI) - as Creative

    Ignorativny terminator (IT) - as Normalizing

    Connectivity terminator (CT) - as Harmonizing

    however, other articles have the DCNH dichotomies differently. For instance, the article at
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-DCNH-Subtypes has it as:

    * contact, terminal, connecting - dominant subtype (D);
    * contact, initial, ignoring - creative subtype (C);
    * distant, terminal, ignoring - normalizing subtype (N);
    * distant, initial, connecting - harmonizing subtype (H).

    Terminating and Initiating are switched for Dominant and Harmonizing subtypes.

    So I guess my question is which is accurate? Or does anyone have any insight into why these articles state is differently?







  5. #5
    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    my own personal bubble
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    4,108
    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by epheme View Post
    This article has the following:

    Connectivity initiator (CI) - as Dominant

    Ignorativny initiator (AI) - as Creative

    Ignorativny terminator (IT) - as Normalizing

    Connectivity terminator (CT) - as Harmonizing

    however, other articles have the DCNH dichotomies differently. For instance, the article at
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-DCNH-Subtypes has it as:

    * contact, terminal, connecting - dominant subtype (D);
    * contact, initial, ignoring - creative subtype (C);
    * distant, terminal, ignoring - normalizing subtype (N);
    * distant, initial, connecting - harmonizing subtype (H).

    Terminating and Initiating are switched for Dominant and Harmonizing subtypes.

    So I guess my question is which is accurate? Or does anyone have any insight into why these articles state is differently?






    My understanding is the second one is correct. Think of them like temperaments. Contact/distant is analogous to E/I. Terminal/Initial to j/p. Ignoring/connecting to static/dynamic.

    D is like Ej temperament
    C is like Ep temperament
    N is like Ij temperament
    H is like Ip temperament
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



  6. #6
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mind
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    568 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    This is a older article on this topic vs the 2006 one which is better translated, but this article provides some background info.

    I also edited it to be easier to read.

  7. #7
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    6,724
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    3.1.

    Connectivity initiator (CI) - is an energetic, assertive, determined within their social type person who sets himself clear, realistic goals, and usually achieve them. He is able to quickly and accurately analyze the situation and focuses on large-scale, mainly in the task at hand. Ha stuff is not exchanged. For CI characterized by a strong pragmatic orientation, focus on their own interests. This leads to the fact that towards the end it neglects any available means. Bright subtype, especially if it is sensation, able to walk to his goal over the heads of others.

    Through an initial CI has a strong need to be right, and thanks to connectivity - to manage the situation. This combination makes him a man, constantly vying for glory, honor, influence. In any case, for which CI is taken, it has an underlying installation of victory. It is part of the risk, it is impatient and does not tolerate those who hesitate in making decisions. KI hardly recognize his mistakes, but success is learning what interested. He developed the ambition: often seeks to acquire a high position, a prestigious status. The desire to make a career - a characteristic feature of this subtype of men.

    In what follows we call this the dominant subtype and denoted D (from the English. "Dominate" - dominion, rule). Dominant subtype can manifest itself in two main varieties - DX and DY. The hallmark of DX - immediately attempts authoritarian control and domination, but in case of failure can take a flexible position. A feature of DY - first part of the trust, a man tying one way or another, and only then exhibits authoritarian features.

    3.2.

    Ignorativny initiator (AI) - a creative, enthusiastic, looking for people. His attention is not fixed on the details, figures, facts and rigorous proofs. Something simplifying AI builds holistic concepts and images that have internal proportionality and harmony. He has been a strong tendency to synthesis - combining various, sometimes quite similar ideas and the creation of new and original. Because of its AI ignorativnosti little inclined to make concessions. On the contrary, he often sharpens the conflict, paying no attention to the allegations. He is sarcastic, witty. For this subtype is very important inflow of new experiences that give him the material for the synthesis. There is nothing more boring for him immutability, routine instructions. Interest in him prevails over use.

    AI - tireless preacher of his ideas, grouping like-minded people. However, it lacks diplomacy: he is quick-tempered, short-tempered in defending their theories and proposals, especially when it comes to extrovert.Because of initial AI also lacks persistence and consistency to implement their plans in life. This subtype will henceforth be called creative and denoted C (from the English. "Create" - create, create).

    3.3.

    Ignorativny terminator (IT) - a man of order, system integrity and accuracy. It is characterized by hard work, diligence, and responsibility. Arising out of the terminal patient and methodical, the need to bring the follow through make it a competent specialist in your field.

    IT has a desire for clear and reliable information. He always tries to bring order to the region, with which it has to face. All available information is usually systematized, placed on shelves. Especially clearly expressed in the quality of logic. System and Analysis - its strengths. IT computes a result or obtains it by many observations or experiments. He tries not to miss a single link in the chain of reasoning, and when others do, have difficulty in understanding. IT is very attentive to detail, details.

    IT usually likes to clear mode, he does not like unexpected surprises - the usual or intended change the course of events. He always organizes, arranges as best people and things around them. The types of work, where there are deadlines, determined by access to information and equipment, there are instructions for action, IT surpasses all other subtypes.

    This subtype will be called normalizing and denoted by N (from the English. "Normalize" - to organize).

    3.4.

    Connectivity terminator (CT) - a man, the main value of which is peace, harmony and well-being of their own and their loved ones. CT - the most benevolent subtype, keeping the stability of the family, team, group.

    CT is able to listen to people, to show their understanding of their problems, to empathize with someone else's joy and sorrow. Especially these qualities are seen in ethics. Through connectivity CT quite affectionate, sensitive to changes in the external environment, is doing everything in its power to restore the lost peace.

    For this reason, it sometimes lacks firmness, integrity. As a result of the CT is prone to self-incrimination, reflection. Although this subtype, and does not aspire to power, but becomes a passionate defender of the people and be firm when violated the laws of justice and morality. Subtype CT peculiar and best spiritual qualities. This is a man who is capable of self-sacrifice, refuses personal gain for the benefit of others, if he sees that they need it most. Although he is a good psychologist or a diplomat, but weak in political games, when you need to act not only flexible, but quickly and decisively, without fear to destroy the established status quo.

    This subtype will be called harmonizing and denote H (from the English. "Harmonize" - harmonize).
    Looks like I'm N.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,230
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Looks like I'm N.
    Ditto, which is odd since people usually accuse me of not being EII because I'm N instead of H lol.

  9. #9
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,893
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Ditto, which is odd since people usually accuse me of not being EII because I'm N instead of H lol.
    Funny. If I were to buy this theory I would peg you as C. I think it is convoluted and more appealing to Ne valuers. It is an attempt to explain what others perceive as a weak base function without changing quadra or types. It's like trying to squeeze into a pair of shoes that are too small. Might as well hack off a piece of your foot and make yourself fit (Cinderella reference) instead of questioning why you need to be that particular type. I see IEI here that have a DCHN subtype and I don't think they need it at all. I notice their use of base function underlying everything even when they are using creative or other functions. I also see people typed IEI that don't appear to display Ni underlying anything. I have gotten better at seeing it than when I first joined. Back then I might have seen IEI for people because I related to them and might not have seen it in others because I didn't relate to them as much. I have focused more on functions instead of behavior since then.

    I have said this before though and I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings who are invested in it. It is just my opinion based on my own intuitive feelings which I trust over Gulenko or anyone else. It doesn't really ring true to me. It may explain behavior but not functions. If I had to choose and limit myself this way I would have to choose a combination of C and H for myself. Neither of them fit me completely and even parts of the other two can apply in different situations.

    This following is the most ridiculous aspect of the who idea. It is necessary to state this or the theory starts to falls apart. It was the biggest "red flag". If you don't buy it then you have low self esteem and are unsatisfied with the life you lead. Yeah sure tie up any loose ends so anyone who does not identify with the system is a loser. Being in "transition" sounds preferable to the other options. It offers more freedom and personal choice to respond holistically to any situation you may find yourself in.
    Zero subtype - is, in fact, difficult to predict the manifestation of the person of each of the four subtypes of normal - D, C, N or H. Internally - people is not satisfied with the way of life they lead today. 0 subtype - a man without a rod. It has, as a rule, low self-esteem and looking for a new lifestyle. This subtype is often an intermediate stage, after which a person can reach a new level of development. Ha respects zero structure is reflected in the negative. A person in a state of transition is equally difficult to get along with any of the usual psycho. Greater understanding, however, he finds with H-subtype, which tends to smooth out sharp angles and respected man of his quest Ya
    I don't even type you because it doesn't seem necessary to explain our interactions. I have nothing against EII though.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,230
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Oh, I didn't actually read the article, so I have no idea shat it says lol. I was just going off the wikisocion version, which relates Fi/Ti to Normalizing/balance-stable, which is how I am on PerC. You'd be correct, though, as I do use C (Ne) on 16t. The people on PerC are expecting H (Ni), due to them treating INFP=INFp and INFJ=INFj. The closest to me is actually SubT (mentions are broken). In general, though, I have a normalizing behavior and effect on my social groups. The only person who considers me a P/p would be my father, who is my hero, and far more J/j (and strong, in general) than I will ever be.

    Edit: Also, for the record, I consider mistypes generally equivocal to DCNH subtype not being the same as base type. You seem H to me, but not many H's. Maritsa is an H.

  11. #11
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,893
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Looks like I'm N.
    From my interactions with you I would say you also exhibit H qualities so LSE-Si covers that.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  12. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,230
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    From my interactions with you I would say you also exhibit H qualities so LSE-Si covers that.
    That's part of N. Balancing. If the four get out of whack, I'll assume the role best suited to normalize the situation.

  13. #13
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,893
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Oh, I didn't actually read the article, so I have no idea shat it says lol. I was just going off the wikisocion version, which relates Fi/Ti to Normalizing/balance-stable, which is how I am on PerC. You'd be correct, though, as I do use C (Ne) on 16t. The people on PerC are expecting H (Ni), due to them treating INFP=INFp and INFJ=INFj. The closest to me is actually SubT (mentions are broken). In general, though, I have a normalizing behavior and effect on my social groups. The only person who considers me a P/p would be my father, who is my hero, and far more J/j (and strong, in general) than I will ever be.

    Edit: Also, for the record, I consider mistypes generally equivocal to DCNH subtype not being the same as base type. You seem H to me, but not many H's. Maritsa is an H.
    All three of you have the Fi vibe underlying everything, to me. That is why I have no problem believing you could all be EII. Of the three of you, she most closely resembles the way my sister expresses herself and they have a similar way of looking at morality and experiencing si. My sister might lean a bit more Ne than her as she can get excited about an idea and go on brainstorming different possibilities to the point of exhausting me and herself. I want to just say, "stop, focus, and pick a direction please!". I know that most projects will be abandoned half finished. I assume she does too but that doesn't stop her from starting. They both paint and they both have a similar perspectives on love, romance and being more traditional in the roles. My sister seems very controlled with her facial expressions and may come off as ip because she is not that energetic. She kind of appears shy and fragile in many ways but she will have no problem standing against something she finds morally wrong. It can shock people who are not used to seeing her temper flare up. She is usually more controlled when upset than I am. My sister is an E9 sp/sx. She values inner peace, love and harmony above everything but her family. Even with the family she strives to restore harmony unless someone has crossed her boundaries in such a way that she might hold a grudge and believe they deserve a punishment for it.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  14. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,230
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well, your sister sounds IEE, and, no, there's really not much difference.

  15. #15
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,893
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Well, your sister sounds IEE, and, no, there's really not much difference.
    Most definitely not IEE. She is a poster child for introversion. lol I know IEE. My sister just has big dreams but low energy. The EII-Ne subtype description is good for her.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  16. #16
    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    EII-Ne Sp/So
    Posts
    14,938
    Mentioned
    243 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy8419 View Post
    Oh, I didn't actually read the article, so I have no idea shat it says lol. I was just going off the wikisocion version, which relates Fi/Ti to Normalizing/balance-stable, which is how I am on PerC. You'd be correct, though, as I do use C (Ne) on 16t. The people on PerC are expecting H (Ni), due to them treating INFP=INFp and INFJ=INFj. The closest to me is actually SubT (mentions are broken). In general, though, I have a normalizing behavior and effect on my social groups. The only person who considers me a P/p would be my father, who is my hero, and far more J/j (and strong, in general) than I will ever be.

    Edit: Also, for the record, I consider mistypes generally equivocal to DCNH subtype not being the same as base type. You seem H to me, but not many H's. Maritsa is an H.
    I do not consider the DCNH subtype system to be of great significance/utility (I think it is poorly defined, has no real use, and gets in the way of primary type identification). However, I consider myself to be EII-Harmonizing subtype in this. (I also consider myself to be -Creative subtype in the Base/Creative subtype system, which I find of greater significance, but again, potentially an unhelpful distraction).

    I do not consider myself similar to you, even as people of the same reputed core type. I do identify with other self-typed EIIs to varying degrees (even if the feeling may not be mutual: but invariably, it is polite), and to a certain extent, other types such as IEE and LII.
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

  17. #17
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,230
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You're so lame lol. But, yeah, that's generally how I view those types.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,099
    Mentioned
    385 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    subtypes is heresy
    Jeremy8419 seems more as extravert
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  19. #19
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,520
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Aylen your sister may be EII but your description here is reminding me of IEE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    All three of you have the Fi vibe underlying everything, to me. That is why I have no problem believing you could all be EII. Of the three of you, she most closely resembles the way my sister expresses herself and they have a similar way of looking at morality and experiencing si. .
    Morality and Si. It matters to IEE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    My sister might lean a bit more Ne than her as she can get excited about an idea and go on brainstorming different possibilities to the point of exhausting me and herself. I want to just say, "stop, focus, and pick a direction please!". .
    This can be me, and I do have to make myself pick a direction too often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I know that most projects will be abandoned half finished. .
    I try. Too many undone things eventually take their toll and I am forced to go on a finishing-binge. However, I do not see any EIIs I know getting caught in this trap. Not one. I mean they occasionally get caught up in having two things going at once. (Like two is any big deal). Its just not one of their traits in any way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I assume she does too but that doesn't stop her from starting. They both paint and they both have a similar perspectives on love, romance and being more traditional in the roles..
    I paint. And draw. Also, I do tend to more traditional roles in relationship. Though this marraige with my dear SLI seems to need less focus on roles. (we do a lot together. I am creative chef; he is sous chef, i.e. I paint trim, he paints walls and ceilings, as I like detail....)

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    My sister seems very controlled with her facial expressions.
    I control my facial expression in that they seem to be so highly communicative that I try NOT to have negative expressions, like if I am angry or annoyed. The EIIs I know don't actually control their facial expressions. They seem to go from placid a lot of the time to an expressive, pleasant sincere smile when they are happy, and pretty darn mad when they are mad. But I would not consider them to have controlled expressions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    and may come off as ip because she is not that energetic..
    I can appear to have no energy when I am stuck. I seem to go from stuck (often this is outwardly stuck but inwardly there are possibilities spinning around and I seriously need to "pick") to energetic; that being when I am onto something that I give my whole focus til its done...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    She kind of appears shy and fragile in many ways but she will have no problem standing against something she finds morally wrong..
    Me too. Fragileness like i am careful not to hurt, and apparent shyness can be reluctance to extrovert in a big social setting, or to even say anything if it does not seem the right time or place. We don't want to perform for everyone. But we gravitate to 1:1 in groups. No problem extroverting when something is morally wrong, or someone is being maligned unfairly - at such moments my coming off bad or being disliked is subservient to the issue at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It can shock people who are not used to seeing her temper flare up. She is usually more controlled when upset than I am..
    Yes, this is the one time firmness will come out and it can surprise people. And I am almost always controlled when I am upset - which is completely different from the EIIs I know. I have thought much about this, because it is a difference between IEE and EII, as well as IEE with her look-alike SEE. All three have active Fi in their type. EII knows her feeling well being FI-first, and an introvert who takes time to really know her feelings, so she expresses them with confidence, and if she is mad she does not need to think it over, she KNOWS she is mad and EXACTLY why so she has no problem saying whats annoying her then and there - and strongly, if need be. SEE also experiences Fi reactions strongly, and she is confident type who does not second-guess the feelings she knows she has, and what she feels, she says - no holding back. (You know where you stand with her).

    What I do is different, and I have seen it in other IEEs and I have seen it explained in the Model A Fi descriptions consistently, so I think its an IEE "tell". When I am upset, or mad over someone's words or actions, that feeling overcomes me suddenly and strongly, but I consistently tend to control that anger, hide it fairly well (but observers can often see a tell in my expressions, or see my effort to hide) and I keep it to myself as much as possible when people are around. I want to bge alone with my feeling, understand it, figure it out. I do not want to be sorry later for my reaction, and I don't even fully understand my reaction, and its important for me to understand my feelings BEFORE I react.

    So that is another strong reason why that paragraph about your sister reminds me of IEE and not EII.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    My sister is an E9 sp/sx..
    I am pretty sure i am Ei sx/so... but I do not study enneagram much...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    She values inner peace, love and harmony above everything but her family. .
    Me too. That's me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Even with the family she strives to restore harmony.
    Me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    unless someone has crossed her boundaries in such a way that she might hold a grudge and believe they deserve a punishment for it.
    Well, not sure its type related but if I have a grudge I do everything in my power to GET RID OF IT, and for good. I am willing to put a lot of work into it too. I guess because I have always believed strongly in the Golden Rule from my youngest years? And that we will be judged by the measure we judge others? At any rate, I have had many "wonderful opportunities" to get rid of grudges over the years and have worked on it each time, sticking with the problem no matter how long it takes. So I am glad to say that when I examine my conscience on that one I am good.

    [Sometimes forgiveness does not mean being friends, because that's not always wise. Like, with my verbally abusive ex, who does not have good will towards me, it was necessary to fully and completely forgive, and to do that I needed not only my own determination but also the help of God (and praying for my ex and those he cares about helps a lot) but that doesn't mean I am foolish enough to interact with him any more than absolutely necessary for civil politeness.]
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  20. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2,230
    Mentioned
    39 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    subtypes is heresy
    Jeremy8419 seems more as extravert
    This is the internet. Do you understand that this is the internet? INTER. NET.

  21. #21
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,893
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Aylen your sister may be EII but your description here is reminding me of IEE.


    Morality and Si. It matters to IEE.

    This can be me, and I do have to make myself pick a direction too often.

    I try. Too many undone things eventually take their toll and I am forced to go on a finishing-binge. However, I do not see any EIIs I know getting caught in this trap. Not one. I mean they occasionally get caught up in having two things going at once. (Like two is any big deal). Its just not one of their traits in any way.

    I paint. And draw. Also, I do tend to more traditional roles in relationship. Though this marraige with my dear SLI seems to need less focus on roles. (we do a lot together. I am creative chef; he is sous chef, i.e. I paint trim, he paints walls and ceilings, as I like detail....)

    I control my facial expression in that they seem to be so highly communicative that I try NOT to have negative expressions, like if I am angry or annoyed. The EIIs I know don't actually control their facial expressions. They seem to go from placid a lot of the time to an expressive, pleasant sincere smile when they are happy, and pretty darn mad when they are mad. But I would not consider them to have controlled expressions.

    I can appear to have no energy when I am stuck. I seem to go from stuck (often this is outwardly stuck but inwardly there are possibilities spinning around and I seriously need to "pick") to energetic; that being when I am onto something that I give my whole focus til its done...

    Me too. Fragileness like i am careful not to hurt, and apparent shyness can be reluctance to extrovert in a big social setting, or to even say anything if it does not seem the right time or place. We don't want to perform for everyone. But we gravitate to 1:1 in groups. No problem extroverting when something is morally wrong, or someone is being maligned unfairly - at such moments my coming off bad or being disliked is subservient to the issue at hand.

    Yes, this is the one time firmness will come out and it can surprise people. And I am almost always controlled when I am upset - which is completely different from the EIIs I know. I have thought much about this, because it is a difference between IEE and EII, as well as IEE with her look-alike SEE. All three have active Fi in their type. EII knows her feeling well being FI-first, and an introvert who takes time to really know her feelings, so she expresses them with confidence, and if she is mad she does not need to think it over, she KNOWS she is mad and EXACTLY why so she has no problem saying whats annoying her then and there - and strongly, if need be. SEE also experiences Fi reactions strongly, and she is confident type who does not second-guess the feelings she knows she has, and what she feels, she says - no holding back. (You know where you stand with her).

    What I do is different, and I have seen it in other IEEs and I have seen it explained in the Model A Fi descriptions consistently, so I think its an IEE "tell". When I am upset, or mad over someone's words or actions, that feeling overcomes me suddenly and strongly, but I consistently tend to control that anger, hide it fairly well (but observers can often see a tell in my expressions, or see my effort to hide) and I keep it to myself as much as possible when people are around. I want to bge alone with my feeling, understand it, figure it out. I do not want to be sorry later for my reaction, and I don't even fully understand my reaction, and its important for me to understand my feelings BEFORE I react.

    So that is another strong reason why that paragraph about your sister reminds me of IEE and not EII.

    I am pretty sure i am Ei sx/so... but I do not study enneagram much...

    Me too. That's me.

    Me too.

    Well, not sure its type related but if I have a grudge I do everything in my power to GET RID OF IT, and for good. I am willing to put a lot of work into it too. I guess because I have always believed strongly in the Golden Rule from my youngest years? And that we will be judged by the measure we judge others? At any rate, I have had many "wonderful opportunities" to get rid of grudges over the years and have worked on it each time, sticking with the problem no matter how long it takes. So I am glad to say that when I examine my conscience on that one I am good.

    [Sometimes forgiveness does not mean being friends, because that's not always wise. Like, with my verbally abusive ex, who does not have good will towards me, it was necessary to fully and completely forgive, and to do that I needed not only my own determination but also the help of God (and praying for my ex and those he cares about helps a lot) but that doesn't mean I am foolish enough to interact with him any more than absolutely necessary for civil politeness.]


    Edit: Too much private info so sent to Eliza in pm.


    I thought she fit the Ne subtype but on a careful rereading I see she fits a bit of both and the generic EII profile. I didn't even consider IEE as she is not an extrovert and is Se polr.

    Appearance
    The ethical subtype appears polite, restrained, and impassive. Usually keeps some distance in communication, at times seems cold, firm, and unemotional. In the process of dialogue, however, this impression gradually dissipates as he begins to sympathize and shows his desire to help and assist. Serious, calm, and well-wishing person. Quite insightful but reserved and rarely shares his observations. Fastidious and tactful. Doesn't know how to joke, feels afraid of saying something in excess. During arguments prefers to leave silently without resorting to diplomacy. Very hardworking, meticulous, patient, and diligent. Intolerant of violence and injustice. Consistent and firm in his principles. Able to create comfort, decorates his home with hand-made items. Knows how to work with his hands. Pays attention to his health and appearance; in appearance is usually neat and prim. Rarely smiles. His gaze seems guarded. Dresses modestly but with taste, in presence of sufficient funds even in exquisite manner. His movements are smooth, yet constrained. His gait is quick and light, somewhat restrained, at times pattering. Sits straight and seldom gesticulates in conversation.
    Character
    This individual is very interested in relations between people. Values understanding, tolerance, capacity for compromise for the sake of harmony in relations. Attempts to be helpful, responsive, and attentive towards everyone. Accepts people as they are; forgives their weaknesses and does not seek to change them by force. Tries to adhere to the principles of fairness and compassion. Predisposes others towards trust. Can patiently listen out his conversation partner. Relates with understanding to manifestations of turbulent emotions in others; tries to calm the person down, give some useful advice. If this does not help, knows how to wait patiently until the person calms down on his or her own. Does not need verbal confirmation of feelings himself - he understands everything without words. Stable and persistent in his sympathies and affections. Cherishes soulful harmony, his own and that of others. If his partner does not fully satisfy him, he departs without much commotion and sorting out the relationship.
    Achieves the goal he set before himself adamantly, sequentially and persistently, overcoming many difficulties in the process. While defending his interests he demonstrates principality and stubbornness. In extreme situations, acts logically and calmly, focusing his attention on the main aspects. Dislikes hurry and haste. Knows how to properly distribute events and work in time and manages to finish everything by the deadlines. Feels annoyed when having one unfinished job he is assigned another. Tries to prepare in advance to not disappoint others. Does not want to burden others with himself. Likes thoroughness and solidity in everything. Getting bogged down by details can over-exhaust himself. Operative and conscientious. Invests his soul into any job, performs it beautifully and skillfully.
    Shows little interest in anything that does not concern him and his interests. Has developed sense of skepticism, due to which there is certain inertness in his behavior. By nature he is cautious and distrusting; shares his experiences only with people who are close to him. Self-controlled in behavior, laconic, and unimposing in providing advice. Tries to objectively understand any argument and explain to each contestant where he or she is wrong. Laments his failures in solitude. Finds it difficult to tolerate conflict and misunderstandings. Restrained in showing his emotions, shows them only in a close circle of friends. Modest and bashful; rarely voices negative comments regarding others, instead waits for the person to feel his own fault.
    Observant of the aesthetics of appearance and interior, tries to instill aesthetic taste in others. Intolerant of slovenliness. Dislikes discomfort and poor taste; eagerly listens to the advice of others on such subjects. Poorly assesses the quality of his own work and time expended on it. Responsible; disapproves of lack of punctuality and conscientiousness in others. Often finds his calling working as a psychologist or physician, or taking up social work of humanitarian nature.

    Intuitive subtype Ne-INFj (Ne-EII)

    Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov

    Appearance
    The intuitive subtype is emotional, composed, and firm. Shows cordiality, goodwill, and friendliness toward people who are in his favor. Closing distance with a person tries to be somehow useful and of service. Likes to advise, to mentor, to educate others but only within his circle. Possesses figurative and imaginative thinking and creative abilities, can discuss various imagery, symbols, dreams. Sensitive, vulnerable, uncertain and erratic. Prone to taking offense despite his best attempts to hide this. Sometimes he likes to joke around in conversation. Tries not to say unpleasant things to people, but cannot always restrain himself and may burst out in disagreement or indignation, but comes to regret it later. Serious and fastidious, prefers to hold himself with some reserve and subtlety. Dresses simply, adhering to classical styles, often conservatively. His mimicry and gestures are weakly expressed. Speech is emotional and slightly inhibited; its tone is often didactic. Frequently has a disproportionate figure, often squat in physique and prone to corpulence. Gait may be a bit clumsy and waddling.
    Character
    Seeks to understand the essence of various subjects and phenomena. Possesses strong associative and figurative thinking and the talent of foresight. Perceptive and insightful regarding the potential of various projects and people, aware of other's talents and abilities. Often displays an interest in problems that lie at the intersection of ethics and philosophy. Very curious, loves to read and to contemplate. He is constantly evaluating everything. Feels unsatisfied and frustrated with work that is monotonous and routine. Strives for self-cultivation. Defends his views on emotional basis, but tries to support his statements with facts. Distrustful, requires sufficient evidence to become convinced of the verity of his partner's statements.
    Poorly tolerates loneliness, needs attention of people who are close with him. Appreciates sincerity, attention to his person, and tact; condemns discordant and abusive behavior. Quite principled; he believes that all-forgiveness corrupts those who deserve to be punished. May sometimes deliver a harsh rebuke for a person whom he thinks to be guilty, but usually wavers before doing so because he is afraid of spoiling his relations with other people and being unfair. Loves his family; he is ready for any sacrifices for them. Very fond of small children; though sometimes for educational purposes he is strict and uncompromising in their treatment. At times advocates for harsh measures and punishments.
    Impressionable and emotionally sensitive. Feels truly satisfied with himself only if he could contribute by a deed. Tries to please others by performing a variety of services for them or giving presents, by being generous and unselfish. Helps people not sparing his time and efforts, meanwhile may forget about himself. Does not forgive betrayal and treachery; in such cases may irreversibly put an end to the relationship. Easily takes offense. Painfully and sensitively perceives the lack of volitional, push-through qualities in himself.
    Takes on many tasks barely completing them on time, thus may postpone unpleasant or uninteresting work until later. Shows an interest in the objective side of affairs if he has a desire to become competent in pragmatic activities, in which case makes himself learn about procedures and regulations. Can be happy if he finds a proper application of his abilities.
    A person of firm convictions - an idealist and a maximalist. Dreams of being in ideal harmony with his partner in tastes, beliefs, and passions, and becomes upset when this doesn't happen and disagreements arise. Due to his tendency to take everything close to heart, feels worried and agitated by slighted occasions. Prone to doubt, somewhat indecisive and diffident. Needs an optimistically oriented partner who can dispel his worries and uncertainties, be able to provide an evaluation of his work and actions, shield him from unnecessary tasks and people, and improve his mood. Has a keen sense of responsibility for others. Demanding of himself; educates others by his personal example. Tries to instill in other people consideration for human values. May have an interest in occult or religious and teach himself various divination techniques and interpretations of teachings.
    His appearance is often very modest, dresses so as not to stand out. Attempts to look tidy and well-groomed, but investing effort and time into looking after his appearance feels like a burden for him. Often doesn't have much interest in jewelry. Critically evaluates his looks; negative remarks on this topic can deeply wound him. Receives compliments in the presence of others with confusion and distrust. Afraid of falling sick and becoming dependent on others, for this reason tries to improve his lifestyle.
    Description by Victor Gulenko

    Feels people very well. Immediately feels who has similar views and opinions to his and who doesn't. Enjoys spending time in a small circle of like-minded people, discussing novelties in art and human sciences. Frequently appears somewhat unsure in himself and scattered. Gravitates towards social and humanitarian work, but can also work in service jobs. Realizes himself well in medicine and teaching. Able to reconcile those in a dispute and to mitigate intense situations. Creates a pleasant atmosphere in conversation and in his house. Dresses with taste, not seldom follows fashion.
    Last edited by Aylen; 04-01-2016 at 03:26 AM.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  22. #22
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,520
    Mentioned
    233 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post

    I should clarify since you made me aware of just how powerful your Ne and demonstrative function can be in your response. I might have been giving her more Ne credit than she deserves! Her brainstorming skills are pretty good (much better than mine) and she can have innovative ideas, on occasion, but maybe not compared to your's or other Ne base. Ne ignoring here, so take my assessment of Ne with a grain of salt. I can find it exhausting if I am not in the mood to entertain possibilities.

    Some IEE can be "wild", like an sx/so. Others more quietly quirky and shy. There is a range of expression so I am not trying to stereotype. My sister is the furthest thing from wild but she is a bit quirky in a way. Believing in conspiracy theories is one of those ways. Government is knowingly poisoning our food type of things or vaccines are harmful to all children but we will never know how most were harmed because it is done at an early age. To me that is the realm of Fi and Ne and I don't really entertain those ideas. She could do with some loosening up sometimes and it makes me happy when she does. The way you talk about your faith is "wild" to me. My sister will say that believing in god works for her but she also sees the value in all religion equally, therefore does not believe god would leave anyone behind for being a Taoist or Buddhist. To her that would not be a "good" and "just" thing for god to do. She will tell you that you are going to hell if you eat meat though. Kidding! You speak with more passion than she does. IEE, sx/so have more passion and fire on a global scale from what I see.

    I often see correlations between delta NF's core quadra values. EII can come off as more serious and studious in general that is why I can see her more like Maritsa than you. As far as projects, she will have, at most, three things going at once which is a lot. Like three paintings or three books that she is writing. If she makes up her mind to do a home project it is completed by delegating it to her husband to complete so she abandons the actual physical labor after giving it a try and will go paint or write. She doesn't do much, if any, in terms of the physical work involved, even though it was all her idea. Like I said she seems fragile and does not have much physical strength. I did very well in gymnastics and kung fu but she struggled. I can take the Se force and get motivated. Her walk is pretty graceful though since she went to modeling school (as a teen) then modeled clothing, in print (locally) in her late teens.

    If she believes something needs to be spoken against because it is deeply personal to her she will see it through. Letters of protest against injustice or our civil liberties. She will not be on the front lines at a protest like my ESE sister or IEE friend. IEEs are probably more likely to start random projects and just give up if they lose interest. My sister's art is like her baby and she cares deeply for it so when I say abandoned projects I primarily mean things like spiritual type projects of self improvement. She goes all in, including financially, only to find she does not agree with that type of practice so let's it go without regret for the money spent. I do not mean her art projects forever since she will come back to it eventually because she has invested her heart in it. She has been working on a painting for more than ten years and one particular book about as long. She steadily chips away at it. Her painting tends to change according to her feelings about life.

    She does not have a large variety of interests as she does not leave her home much. She is not Ti polr by any stretch. She is clearly Se polr. She is is even more introverted than me and her base Fi underlies everything. The difference in our introversion is that she will socialize with people if it is meant to maintain good relations with important people like her in-laws or friends. Her friends are long term as in since childhood. Her relationships do not change dynamically. I can't be bothered in most cases to reach out to those I was once friends with since I am more open to allowing relationships to take their natural course and that often means ending. It still hurts me, especially if it was romantic love, but I understand and feel no need to go back once I let go.

    I socialize for fun and she socializes out of obligation. That is how I see it anyway but she might say differently if you asked. I can see where Ne underlies everything you do. She does not have the energy or stamina that I perceive you to have. She is just good at brainstorming ideas when there is need to. She prefers her dogs as company even over having her husband home sometimes. lol She needs more alone time than most people in general and has had to overcome agoraphobia and terrible anxiety. If you can imagine someone who is outwardly accepting, gentle and caring but get a sense that underneath they are silently judging your moral character (but you are still ok to them because you are only human) then you can get a very limited sense of what it is like being around her if your values are not a match.

    I thought she fit the Ne subtype but on a careful rereading I see she fits a bit of both and the generic EII profile. I didn't even consider IEE as she is not an extrovert and is Se polr.
    Wow, that's thorough! I enjoyed reading about her; I was not analyzing as much this time, except I did have some "Yes, that's like me". A very good explanation of your sister. One thing that stood out is her relationships being long-term and since childhood. That is just how I am. I prefer to hold onto everybody. The very few exceptions stand out to me very strongly, and make me feel bad. The most prominent one was my ex but that had to be, and is a continued decision to be separate (not friendly just polite) becaseu that is only wise. Also a friend I made after my marraige I "stopped" because it was not healthy, and that was difficult to do, but I knew wise. The idea of some friendships naturally ending, which I see is natural to my EII friends is not normal/natural to me. In fact there is a pull to connect to people from the past after some time.

    But I cannot make a good dissection of the EII and IEE differences right now.

    Some things from above IEE descriptions I have particularly seen in EII:

    - Usually keeps some distance in communication, at times seems cold, firm, and unemotional.
    - Shows little interest in anything that does not concern him and his interests.
    - Feels annoyed when having one unfinished job he is assigned another.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  23. #23
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    MACS0647-JD
    TIM
    SEER ~ 458 sx/sp
    Posts
    9,893
    Mentioned
    732 Post(s)
    Tagged
    40 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Wow, that's thorough! I enjoyed reading about her; I was not analyzing as much this time, except I did have some "Yes, that's like me". A very good explanation of your sister. One thing that stood out is her relationships being long-term and since childhood. That is just how I am. I prefer to hold onto everybody. The very few exceptions stand out to me very strongly, and make me feel bad. The most prominent one was my ex but that had to be, and is a continued decision to be separate (not friendly just polite) becaseu that is only wise. Also a friend I made after my marraige I "stopped" because it was not healthy, and that was difficult to do, but I knew wise. The idea of some friendships naturally ending, which I see is natural to my EII friends is not normal/natural to me. In fact there is a pull to connect to people from the past after some time.

    But I cannot make a good dissection of the EII and IEE differences right now.

    Some things from above IEE descriptions I have particularly seen in EII:

    - Usually keeps some distance in communication, at times seems cold, firm, and unemotional.
    - Shows little interest in anything that does not concern him and his interests.
    - Feels annoyed when having one unfinished job he is assigned another.
    Thanks. Those descriptions are for EII Fi and Ne subtypes not IEE. Not sure if you meant to say they were IEE descriptions though.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







  24. #24
    Poster Nutbag The Exception's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    my own personal bubble
    TIM
    LII-Ne
    Posts
    4,108
    Mentioned
    94 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    I used to think I was H subtype now I'm no longer sure. I could be N subtype or C subtype for all I know. Probably not D though.

    I'll copy and paste what I wrote recently on the facebook Socionics group:

    I would like some insight into my subtype. I know that I straddle the LII-EII line. To the typical LII, I look rather EII; to the typical EII, I look rather LII. I lean towards LII- I seem to relate most to alpha quadra (but also a bit of delta). I think I just have a really strongly emphasize Fi-role function.

    I used to think I was harmonizing subtype in DCNH but now I’m thinking normalizing is more likely. Normalizing strengthens Ti and Fi. I’m not sure I really have strengthened Ti for an LII but I definitely feel like I have strengthened Fi. So N-Fi specifically. I think in a way it makes more sense than harmonizing- I’m not sure I’m particularly strengthened in Si or Ni. I picked harmonizing originally because I seemed to fit the description fairly well- I’m all about avoiding conflict and achieving inner peace and harmony.

    BUT……… I’ve realized that all too often I call people out on behaviors I find violate some ethical standards of mine. I call out people I perceive as saying things I see as being rather harsh or rude. I call people out on things I find violate some code of ethics according to my role. I think this ‘calling’ others out, trying to correct their behavior, telling them what they should and should not do and say is a very normalizing thing. Even if my motive behind it is to establish more harmony and comfort in the end. It’s like I’m causing some conflict to achieve some ideal.

    I suppose I could also see C-Ne as a possibility. I definitely don’t have strengthened Se but I do think I emphasize Ne quite a bit. I have a rather goofy Ne streak and enjoy entertaining rather strange possibilities and seem to diverge possibilities rather than narrowing it down to just one. I kind of think N-Fi might be a bit more likely though. It fits with why a lot of people type me as EII.
    So I guess I’m wondering what you see as my DCNH subtype? I’ve asked this question a while back and it seemed like the majority picked harmonizing with a few voting for creative. I don’t recall anyone voting for harmonizing or dominant. I’m just wondering if your perception of me changed in light of this new data.

    One more thing. In the two subtype system, I’ve always identified more with the Ne subtype than the Ti subtype. I seem to fit LII-Ne descriptions more and far more resemble EII with the shared Ne creative than LSI with the shared Ti base. But it would seem that most LII-Ne would be more like C or H in DCNH. It seems like N subtype in DCNH is more likely to be LII-Ti using 2 subtypes.
    So is it possible to be LII-Ne in the 2 subtype system and N-Fi in DCNH? Or am I just mis-subtyping myself? Do you think subtype explains why I look so EII like at times compared to other LIIs? Or are there some other factors at work? Or maybe (gasp!) I’m not an LII!!! Maybe I’m not even an EII!!!
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •