Can my fellow alphas relate? ILE-Ti here and this is my life!

[withoutd0ubt]

[Beautiful sky]

Ahahahaha

[Suz]

I would substitute "dumbest" with "sloppiest", but yes...

(And i assume you mean this is a constant reaction you have to people)

[ouronis]

The place I work must be full of Alphas lol

[withoutd0ubt]

I would substitute "dumbest" with "sloppiest", but yes...

(And i assume you mean this is a constant reaction you have to people)

Yes, my reaction. They didn't have a "facepalm" ecard.

[marooned]

that's how i see alpha operating in the "business world." it accommodates for things and changes that make people upset. as in, "here, if we did it this way instead, would you be less upset?" allows for seeing multiple ways to approach something or even to do something, while the valuing of positive and makes for wanting to make everyone happy. so alphas may look for the way to approach/do things that makes the least people upset, or the most people happy (restores the positive ) --even if it's not really the most efficient or productive way, or even if it doesn't make a lot of sense.

alpha NTs are probably aware of all of the accommodating they do in this way as they're navigating a minefield of what's going to upset people (LII) or busy finding ways to get everyone on board to cope with "upsetting changes" (ILE). this probably goes along with seeing people as generally irrational (LII) or just as mostly kind of less intelligent and unadaptable (ILE). so alpha NTs have to unfortunately deal with how touchy people issues interfere with their vision or logical/consistent way.

alpha SFs are probably just more aware of how accommodating others ends up making their lives more difficult, and so while they naturally may try to accommodate others and want others to be "happy," they may also gather resentment and eventually blow a fuse about how this is affecting them. i see SEI as the more long suffering, and ESE as likely to throw a shit fit more quickly. also, ILE can grow impatient and erratic with the silly people matters; and LII can just end up overwhelmed by stress <--the dark side of being accommodating.

[withoutd0ubt]

that's how i see alpha operating in the "business world." it accommodates for things and changes that make people upset. as in, "here, if we did it this way instead, would you be less upset?" allows for seeing multiple ways to approach something or even to do something, while the valuing of positive and makes for wanting to make everyone happy. so alphas may look for the way to approach/do things that makes the least people upset, or the most people happy (restores the positive ) --even if it's not really the most efficient or productive way, or even if it doesn't make a lot of sense.

alpha NTs are probably aware of all of the accommodating they do in this way as they're navigating a minefield of what's going to upset people (LII) or busy finding ways to get everyone on board to cope with "upsetting changes" (ILE). this probably goes along with seeing people as generally irrational (LII) or just as mostly kind of less intelligent and unadaptable (ILE). so alpha NTs have to unfortunately deal with how touchy people issues interfere with their vision or logical/consistent way.

alpha SFs are probably just more aware of how accommodating others ends up making their lives more difficult, and so while they naturally may try to accommodate others and want others to be "happy," they may also gather resentment and eventually blow a fuse about how this is affecting them. i see SEI as the more long suffering, and ESE as likely to throw a shit fit more quickly. also, ILE can grow impatient and erratic with the silly people matters; and LII can just end up overwhelmed by stress <--the dark side of being accommodating.

Nice analysis. As an ILE, when I present a superior idea/concept/vision/direction in the professional environment but it's not immediately accepted for historical/cultural reasons or even for training/implementation reasons then I get this way.

I don't care about what's easy. I don't care about who will have a difficult time implementing it. I care if something can be improved for the best possible outcome and it's not favorably acted upon.

[marooned]

Nice analysis. As an ILE, when I present a superior idea/concept/vision/direction in the professional environment but it's not immediately accepted for historical/cultural reasons or even for training/implementation reasons then I get this way.

I don't care about what's easy. I don't care about who will have a difficult time implementing it. I care if something can be improved for the best possible outcome and it's not favorably acted upon.

hmm, i think this is opposite in a way of my "attempt" because there isn't a valuing of accommodating people to avoid them all getting upset at you... there is perhaps a resorting to that though (and resenting it?). i may have a ways to go in unraveling this and how alpha operates.

i remember one ILE boss i had who was in a job of carrying out her vision in [unnamed field] did tend to be accommodating because she saw people as resistant to change. she also would change things rather frequently on a smaller scale. part of her job i think she saw as getting all these people who like their traditional ways of doing things, to change to her new way. she had like 20 years of experience with this issue... but she i think saw it as a central issue. she seemed to almost like troubleshooting how to get people to change, but if someone became really upset emotionally, she took that as a serious concern. she wanted positive feelings. there was an undercurrent though of seeing a lot of people as just really unadaptable and thinking less of them for it.

she didn't really see superiority in her "vision" as she was very interested in how others perceived things. i think she more saw herself as a shepherd, guiding the vision-less sheep along to a better future or something... that she had this ability to change the system to one that would work better and bring about a brighter future, and that others needed her to do this (even if they didn't know it... and being little sheep, they would resist the changes because they were stuck in their habits... so she had to develop the art of getting them to not do that).

i guess it was more that she tried to be accommodating of the feelings people expressed (the upsets). but she wasn't going to change the big picture objective because of that. they needed to see that her big picture was the right way. so perhaps when they came to see it her way, that was one of the rewards for her.

the other thing about her is that she was a rather benevolent person.

[xerx]

I don't really care about or judge what others do. I like coming up with my own creative ideas and maneuvering the boss into letting me do them. I try to work alone so that I can have full creative control, not because other people suck (often they don't), but because I like elaborating on and articulating my ideas.

[silke]

The pic feels like a check for Te, "Logic of actions", frozen in one sentence. Ti quadra aren't in the habit of judging the actions of others on the fly; in this sense they are self-involved as per xerx's reply. However, there was an ILI on this forum who used to complain about the exact same thing–people acting out of their personal convenience, and his message "to hell with it!" didn't exactly mirror the Si-quadra attitudes.

I don't care about what's easy. I don't care about who will have a difficult time implementing it.
I care if something can be improved for the best possible outcome and it's not favorably acted upon.

Have you tried LIE lately?

[marooned]

hmm. context is important in this too though. for instance if one is in a management or leadership position, some sort of creative/design job, a support position, etc. even the sorts of changes being suggested and the context for that matters.

given the whole body of RME83's posts, i dunno, maybe SLE is worth considering too.

[withoutd0ubt]

I don't really care about or judge what others do. I like coming up with my own creative ideas and maneuvering the boss into letting me do them. I try to work alone so that I can have full creative control, not because other people suck (often they don't), but because I like elaborating on and articulating my ideas.

What about when your boss doesn't accept your maneuver appropriately? Then gave you a nonsensical answer for why your creative ideas were stifled? Working alone intrinsically means other ideas aren't as good - you want "creative control" not collaboration.

That's the meaning of the pic - when all things regarding an idea are considered incontrovertible or unassailable yet it isn't actualized due to incompetence.

[withoutd0ubt]

hmm. context is important in this too though. for instance if one is in a management or leadership position, some sort of creative/design job, a support position, etc. even the sorts of changes being suggested and the context for that matters.

given the whole body of RME83's posts, i dunno, maybe SLE is worth considering too.

I could see why you'd think that, but I've racked up less than 30 comments.

The context herein: I analyzed (Ne) a process that spans multiple sections of our company. I was able to grasp the intricacies of other sections' internal processes (Ti) and reduce all pertinent factors into a framework - its systems analysis. Well I immediately perceived a solution which would save time and money, reduce error, and reduce tedious paperwork. It was a new software that'd have automated the process, reduced input points, and allow for digital data back ups rather than a file management system. I presented this solution to my management (I'm a mid level manager) along with each section's implementation plan. It was irrefutable. Management acknowledged its merits but wouldn't implement it because "we don't have the training resources, it moves us away from our core values, and to stick with a 'proven' method. That = an irritated ILE.

[ClownsandEntropy]

Not a lot of experience in an organisation, but I've definitely had this sentiment in my head when I've been working in group projects.

I sympathise a lot with inumbra's comment:

his probably goes along with seeing people as generally irrational (LII)...and LII can just end up overwhelmed by stress <--the dark side of being accommodating.

It's similar to how I deal with people who get overly emotional about things which they see as emotional slights against them. I just take on the chin and wish everyone was so reasonable and logical as me.

[ouronis]

The pic feels like a check for Te, "Logic of actions", frozen in one sentence. Ti quadra aren't in the habit of judging the actions of others on the fly; in this sense they are self-involved as per xerx's reply. However, there was an ILI on this forum who used to complain about the exact same thing–people acting out of their personal convenience, and his message "to hell with it!" didn't exactly mirror the Si-quadra attitudes.


Have you tried LIE lately?

It doesn't have to be about judging on the fly. You're sitting there, thinking about how there can be more order, systematization in what you're doing, and what an incredible amount of work that would take to align with everything else going on... then when you present, whether that's accepted overall or not, may be annoying if rejected but that's ok. What is really annoying is when someone tries to put themselves inside your process, add a whole bunch of useless, without reason contingencies, and expects you to execute. They destroy your plan because they have no idea what's going on. So I would probably just remove "because that's easier for you" and just say, "yes, let's do that the dumbest fucking way possible." I am more sensitive to people's convenience, after all, that's what optimizing is partly about...doing the work now so you don't have to do much more work later on. I would definitely be a lot more pissed off at a rejection of the idea wholesale if I was in sales and I was trying to make something better for myself and everyone else, but they were too backwards to see it, because then that rejection affects me more directly.

[Suz]

The pic feels like a check for Te, "Logic of actions", frozen in one sentence. Ti quadra aren't in the habit of judging the actions of others on the fly; in this sense they are self-involved as per xerx's reply. However, there was an ILI on this forum who used to complain about the exact same thing–people acting out of their personal convenience, and his message "to hell with it!" didn't exactly mirror the Si-quadra attitudes.


Have you tried LIE lately?

I disagree in that I think a Te-valuer would be more likely to cut corners towards an ultimate goal of "efficiency" rather than working towards realizing a vision or goal in its full perfection. At least, that's how i interpreted that cartoon. So, what's going through the other person's mind in that cartoon is probably something similar, like "They want me to do all this work, when it can be done a much easier way, how dumb." That, i think, would be more consistent with Te-valuing (or just Te).

[Amber]

The pic feels like a check for Te, "Logic of actions", frozen in one sentence. Ti quadra aren't in the habit of judging the actions of others on the fly; in this sense they are self-involved as per xerx's reply. However, there was an ILI on this forum who used to complain about the exact same thing–people acting out of their personal convenience, and his message "to hell with it!" didn't exactly mirror the Si-quadra attitudes.


Have you tried LIE lately?

oh, come on.

Everything about him is ILE ....Merry Alpha type. But a rare breed who doesn't look only like some sorta clown jumping around piercing orange balloons with azure needles.

If he's the mfckr in the avatar, he's prolly ILE 6w7 sx/so.
Sorry about that.

[Suz]

What i run into a lot at work is people being sloppy, taking shortcuts, and missing important things, because being precise and thorough is too much work for them. I resonate a lot with what inumbra said about trying to accomodate people's work styles, and by doing so, it becomes more work for me, because i end up doing what they should have done, or i end up having to dig up info myself which they should have provided but didnt. But it's all in the name of doing a quality job for the people who are depending on me or to do justice to an idea, so i do it (albeit with the inner grumble re: my half-assing coworkers).

[xerx]

What about when your boss doesn't accept your maneuver appropriately? Then gave you a nonsensical answer for why your creative ideas were stifled?

It means I need a new game plan.

Working alone intrinsically means other ideas aren't as good - you want "creative control" not collaboration.

Is a car intrinsically better than a bicycle because it's faster? Is a Japanese restaurant better than an Italian one because it offers sushi? It depends on the use case.

The best analogy I can give, which is a lot like my work, is writing a play or a piece of literature. Writers who don't collaborate do so because they want to express themselves. Having creative control over their vision doesn't mean other books suck. No real writer is going to copy and paste some "better" author's work, because that would defeat the purpose of writing a story in the first place.

That's the meaning of the pic - when all things regarding an idea are considered incontrovertible or unassailable yet it isn't actualized due to incompetence.

There are cases where something is done below potential because it's easier, so that's fair enough. In those cases, I play the long game and try to convince people to come around. Whether an idea is better or worse becomes apparent to everyone over time; calling people out is only going to create factions and make reimplementation impossible.

[withoutd0ubt]

oh, come on.

Everything about him is ILE ....Merry Alpha type. But a rare breed who doesn't look only like some sorta clown jumping around piercing orange balloons with azure needles.

If he's the mfckr in the avatar, he's prolly ILE 6w7 sx/so.
Sorry about that.

Yeah, that's me in the pic. Dunno enneagram but I read through the 9 types and none of them really seemed to describe me. Though I would say the LIE comes closest behind ILE; the difference maker being the PoLR.

[marooned]

I could see why you'd think that, but I've racked up less than 30 comments.

oh, i'm not really trying to give you a different type. i meant it could be worth considering *in addition* to ILE, especially if LIE is being brought into consideration... given that you relate to HA and so far it seems to fit, i'd probably look at SLE before LIE *if* looking for a different type. (it's a lot of if's)

[withoutd0ubt]

hmm, i think this is opposite in a way of my "attempt" because there isn't a valuing of accommodating people to avoid them all getting upset at you... there is perhaps a resorting to that though (and resenting it?). i may have a ways to go in unraveling this and how alpha operates.

i remember one ILE boss i had who was in a job of carrying out her vision in [unnamed field] did tend to be accommodating because she saw people as resistant to change. she also would change things rather frequently on a smaller scale. part of her job i think she saw as getting all these people who like their traditional ways of doing things, to change to her new way. she had like 20 years of experience with this issue... but she i think saw it as a central issue. she seemed to almost like troubleshooting how to get people to change, but if someone became really upset emotionally, she took that as a serious concern. she wanted positive feelings. there was an undercurrent though of seeing a lot of people as just really unadaptable and thinking less of them for it.

she didn't really see superiority in her "vision" as she was very interested in how others perceived things. i think she more saw herself as a shepherd, guiding the vision-less sheep along to a better future or something... that she had this ability to change the system to one that would work better and bring about a brighter future, and that others needed her to do this (even if they didn't know it... and being little sheep, they would resist the changes because they were stuck in their habits... so she had to develop the art of getting them to not do that).

i guess it was more that she tried to be accommodating of the feelings people expressed (the upsets). but she wasn't going to change the big picture objective because of that. they needed to see that her big picture was the right way. so perhaps when they came to see it her way, that was one of the rewards for her.

the other thing about her is that she was a rather benevolent person.

I realize it was different; my point was: it's not that I don't want to accommodate people or make the workplace better - that's exactly why I pursued the process change and had wrote up implementation plans (training requirements, help guides, rollout schedules, etc). My issue was with the upper management, acknowledging the superior process but still rejecting it for irrational reasons. It's like: "now you're aware of a better way why would you maintain the (now) dumber way?" Change is always hard but no growth without difficulty, no progress without growth. So, no , I don't care about the issues and people inasmuch as they could've been easily solved or reconciled. Also, it helps as an ILE to possess the ability to 'sell' an idea to the masses so the accommodations would be inevitable between the employees recognizing the benefits and discussing amongst themselves. Not with it?? That's an insubordinate employee who needs discipline.

[withoutd0ubt]

oh, i'm not really trying to give you a different type. i meant it could be worth considering *in addition* to ILE, especially if LIE is being brought into consideration... given that you relate to HA and so far it seems to fit, i'd probably look at SLE before LIE *if* looking for a different type. (it's a lot of if's)

Oh I can do SLE mode sometimes but I cannot blindly follow directions. Also, I don't care that much about my attire. Also, I'm the guy in every meeting coming up with better ideas. Also, my boss is an SLE and I hate that guy.... Gets furious with me for asking "ok, but why..." and tries to command me. Not looking though, comfy at ILE.

[Ananke]

Oh I can do SLE mode sometimes

What is SLE mode?

but I cannot blindly follow directions.

SLEs follow directions? I must have not gotten this update yet.

Blindly? You must be joking.

Also, I don't care that much about my attire.

Do you shave?

Also, I'm the guy in every meeting coming up with better ideas.

If you come up with better ideas for baking cookies while others want to discuss engineering work, that isn't very useful...?

Also, my boss is an SLE and I hate that guy....

You are not ILE or that guy is not SLE if the hatred is type related. ILE-SLE generally have a lot of fun working together. A bit goofy and disorganized duo, but it gets there, in my experience.

Gets furious with me for asking "ok, but why..."

Unless you suggest cookie baking solutions when the guy wants technical solutions, or something similar, I doubt a Ti-valuer would dislike a "why" from another Ti-valuer.

and tries to command me.

Command you into shutting up about cookie baking solutions? Ok, I would do that, too, I guess.

Not looking though, comfy at ILE.

Try LSE for your boss if you are ILE. Or try ST or LIE for yourself. Your talks seems full of hands on Te. You don't seem like a meticulous Ti guy building systems before acting, nor a whimsical Ne-person, with your "implement solutions quickly" (rather Te-valuing) talks, nor with your focus on practical/realistic solutions (generally S-related or Se HA, maybe?). I may have gotten your descriptions wrong though.

[Myst]

I was able to grasp the intricacies of other sections' internal processes (Ti) and reduce all pertinent factors into a framework - its systems analysis.

sounds like this can be Ni too, depending

and you sound like LIE a lot

but I didn't bother to read the entire thread, just first post and a couple more of yours

[withoutd0ubt]

What is SLE mode?


SLEs follow directions? I must have not gotten this update yet.

Blindly? You must be joking.


Do you shave?


If you come up with better ideas for baking cookies while others want to discuss engineering work, that isn't very useful...?


You are not ILE or that guy is not SLE if the hatred is type related. ILE-SLE generally have a lot of fun working together. A bit goofy and disorganized duo, but it gets there, in my experience.


Unless you suggest cookie baking solutions when the guy wants technical solutions, or something similar, I doubt a Ti-valuer would dislike a "why" from another Ti-valuer.


Command you into shutting up about cookie baking solutions? Ok, I would do that, too, I guess.


Try LSE for your boss if you are ILE. Or try ST for yourself. Your talks seems full of hands on Te (ST). You don't seem like a meticulous Ti guy building systems before acting, nor a whimsical Ne-person, with your "implement solutions quickly" (rather Te-valuing) talks, nor with your focus on practical/realistic solutions (generally S-related). I may have gotten your descriptions wrong though.

SLE mode = take rejection of proposal as an affront against self - a subjective internalization of having took ownership of the proposal. ILE take rejection of proposal as an affront against the system - an objective intellectualization of leading the pursuit for necessary change. I haven't yet figured out which I am, thought ILE though people keep inferring in SLE... read all through it and it could fit except for...

Following directions/maintaining the system status quo. From Wikisocio:

"SLEs easily spot power dynamics within any given structure, hierarchy or relationship, and strive for a secure position where they are less subordinate to others. At the same time, SLEs are comfortable with hierarchies, and recognize that they are a necessary part of everyday life. "

"The ILE is constantly aware of the possibilities inherent in social, natural or other systems, and of the areas with the greatest potential within them. The ILE operates by using Extroverted Intuition to attune themselves to the multiple variables continually being expressed within the environment and proceeds to elucidate feasible connections and boundaries of context in order to change the way one perceives that which is operating below the surface of either everyday life or more dynamic technical arenas."

The ILE will never be content in an inefficient system, regardless of hierarchical framework. The SLE can be content in an inefficient system, as long as the hierarchy is navigable.

Yes, ILE and SLE can work together fine. ILE boss an SLE fine. SLE boss of ILE -> terrible for ILE and taxing for SLE. SLE doesn't want to hear about better ways all the time, they don't want to answer questions or justify decisions to subordinates, they want to maximize the efficiency of the existing processes. Speak about what you know about rather than committing the logical fallacies "arguing from ignorance" and "false dichotomy".

Then your doubts are ignorant and mistaken. SLE are not interested in stepping back into the meta-level analysis of a business decision; they want to do an awesome job at the decision they've made. Btw I am an engineer and no one talks about fucking baking cookies but that was a great try at another fallacy "begging the question" since your conclusion was argued by a nonsensical cookie baking premise.

Blindly? Never researched why so many SLE go into the military?

Do I shave? This is another fallacy called "red herring", specifically "straw man" veiled within another false dichotomy (lack of care for attire must impact bodily grooming) with an ultimate goal of a "ad hominem" attack against my comment. Wholly irrelevant and illogical.

Boss definitely SLE. Why did you infer my solution wasn't meticulously crafted (read: already had implementation plans ready)? Te... Yes, demonstrative rather than base though... Only resort to it when it's necessary rather than as an existential need. At work, it's necessary for "proof" rather than explaining via Ne or acting without authority via Se.

[Ananke]

Do I shave? This is another fallacy called "red herring", specifically "straw man" veiled within another false dichotomy (lack of care for attire must impact bodily grooming) with an ultimate goal of a "ad hominem" attack against my comment. Wholly irrelevant and illogical.

No, it was me checking for Ne and humor. Not detected.

[Myst]

Oh I can do SLE mode sometimes but I cannot blindly follow directions. Also, I don't care that much about my attire. Also, I'm the guy in every meeting coming up with better ideas. Also, my boss is an SLE and I hate that guy.... Gets furious with me for asking "ok, but why..." and tries to command me. Not looking though, comfy at ILE.

one more thing. sounds like classic SLE-LII Supervision here.

[withoutd0ubt]

It means I need a new game plan.

Is a car intrinsically better than a bicycle because it's faster? Is a Japanese restaurant better than an Italian one because it offers sushi? It depends on the use case.

The best analogy I can give, which is a lot like my work, is writing a play or a piece of literature. Writers who don't collaborate do so because they want to express themselves. Having creative control over their vision doesn't mean other books suck. No real writer is going to copy and paste some "better" author's work, because that would defeat the purpose of writing a story in the first place.

There are cases where something is done below potential because it's easier, so that's fair enough. In those cases, I play the long game and try to convince people to come around. Whether an idea is better or worse becomes apparent to everyone over time; calling people out is only going to create factions and make reimplementation impossible.

When all pertinent data has been amassed (Ne/Te/Se), organized (Ti/Si/Ni), and systematized (Te/Ti/Se/Si/Ne/Ni) - like in this case, there are technical and budgetary constraints - and exactly one answer eventuates, then any new game plan is an entirely agonizing thing to consider, to me.

Regarding cars, bikes, and brands: intrinsically, the comparisons are irrelevant. A car is better for roads, bike for mountain trails or city roads, etc. so yes, I agree it depends on the usage requirements - once you knew what the requirements were (amassing data) then you'd determine what "thing" you'd need to use (organizing data) and then you'd determine which exact "form" you're choosing (systematize and select).

I understand your analogy to writing. However, there are no constraints in creative expressions of art or literature, unlike a more technical or scientific "creative" control where the input from others is beneficial.

I hear you about "playing the long game". That is what is necessary but I find the politicing and salesmanship to be dreadful and depressing.

[withoutd0ubt]

No, it was me checking for Ne and humor. Not detected.

Lol, I was going to joke about having a beard with dreadlocks but you had pissed me off. FWIW, I smiled and thought to myself "this f'n guy...." My apologies for misinterpreting your intentions. Hard to pick up on Ne humor via internet discussions with strangers, especially amidst a ~serious discussion.

I had meant that SLE typically "power dresses" while ILE/LIE are somewhat disheveled. I don't power dress but I dress well - not something I focus on/value or don't focus on/don't value - I just wear clothes that are appropriate and professional.

[withoutd0ubt]

one more thing. sounds like classic SLE-LII Supervision here.

I can see that. I'm not an LII for sure. I simply want to make sure he's considered all the variables and/or understand his logic for the direction he's chosen. He doesn't appreciate Ne and wants to go forward strongly with his Se. He doesn't want the additional information to have to be logically evaluated which would perhaps "take a step back". Also, he's a raging narcissist and megalomaniac who is twice my age so that may add to his disdain for my pertinent input - psychosocial superiority complex.

[Ananke]

Lol, I was going to joke about having a beard with dreadlocks but you had pissed me off. FWIW, I smiled and thought to myself "this f'n guy...." My apologies for misinterpreting your intentions. Hard to pick up on Ne humor via internet discussions with strangers, especially amidst a ~serious discussion.

I lean ILE > LII, despite the massive text walls of logics. I still don't recognize your ILE - SLE description totally, and the way you describe your boss seems weirdly Te, but it might be because of different perspectives. I probably work in a similar role as your boss, and definitely don't care much about progress plans or schedules - that's for the Te-egos to scream about - the only thing that interests me is that the end result is good. In that sense, I like questions, but I guess Ne sometimes comes off as irrelevant (cookie baking), and then I do lose patience. This is more a problem with IEEs than ILEs, ime. ILEs rather have a tendency to focus on what they are interested in, not what is necessary to do, but I can sympathize with that, and they can be teamed up with people helping them prioritize, without them losing their fun too much - if they have no fun, they stop producing, ime. I have had a lot of ILEs working for me, and find them generally easy to work with. Never had an ILE above me, so can't say how that would have been.

I had meant that SLE typically "power dresses" while ILE/LIE are somewhat disheveled. I don't power dress but I dress well - not something I focus on/value or don't focus on/don't value - I just wear clothes that are appropriate and professional.

=/= type related. As for clothes at work, ILEs tend to have a rather unique and weird style - for example some old-fashioned style they fell for and copied (when older) - or in cases where they care less: horribly random clothes mixed and matched (when younger in particular). SLEs tend to have a rather plain and non-flashy style, often black clothes - either some business-like outfit (when older or in a senior position) or a modern street look, even hoodies (when younger), or just plain (boring) t-shirt and trousers kind of clothes (when a technical expert rather than a manager). It's not so easy to say who cares more or less. I can't say I spend much time on clothes compared to most people, but I try to dress neat and simple. (I'm SLE)

[withoutd0ubt]

I lean ILE > LII, despite the massive text walls of logics. I still don't recognize your ILE - SLE description totally, and the way you describe your boss seems weirdly Te, but it might be because of different perspectives. I probably work in a similar role as your boss, and definitely don't care much about progress plans or schedules - that's for the Te-egos to scream about - the only thing that interests me is that the end result is good. In that sense, I like questions, but I guess Ne sometimes comes off as irrelevant (cookie baking), and then I do lose patience. This is more a problem with IEEs than ILEs, ime. ILEs rather have a tendency to focus on what they are interested in, not what is necessary to do, but I can sympathize with that, and they can be teamed up with people helping them prioritize, without them losing their fun too much - if they have no fun, they stop producing, ime. I have had a lot of ILEs working for me, and find them generally easy to work with. Never had an ILE above me, so can't say how that would have been.


=/= type related. As for clothes at work, ILEs tend to have a rather unique and weird style - for example some old-fashioned style they fell for and copied (when older) - or in cases where they care less: horribly random clothes mixed and matched (when younger in particular). SLEs tend to have a rather plain and non-flashy style, often black clothes - either some business-like outfit (when older or in a senior position) or a modern street look, even hoodies (when younger), or just plain (boring) t-shirt and trousers kind of clothes (when a technical expert rather than a manager). It's not so easy to say who cares more or less. I can't say I spend much time on clothes compared to most people, but I try to dress neat and simple. (I'm SLE)

I understand. FWIW, At work I Have a plain and non flashy style - I like nice fitting slacks with good materials and I wear oxford shirts of white, black, gray, and shades of blue, no patterns or lines, just color and fit are important. Outside of work, modern street look with performance gear when going to the gym or playing sports.

Perhaps you can help me on this post of mine as an SLE?
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=49408

[Kim]

I understand. FWIW, At work I Have a plain and non flashy style - I like nice fitting slacks with good materials and I wear oxford shirts of white, black, gray, and shades of blue, no patterns or lines, just color and fit are important. Outside of work, modern street look with performance gear when going to the gym or playing sports.

This alone screams sensor to me. I have yet to meet an ILE who describes his way of dressing with this nuance AND confidence. SLE >>>>>>>>> ILE (also based on my overall impression, not just this one post).

[mu4]

This alone screams sensor to me. I have yet to meet an ILE who describes his way of dressing with this nuance AND confidence. SLE >>>>>>>>> ILE (also based on my overall impression, not just this one post).

He dresses like me. Seems typical guy thing.

[darya]

He dresses like me. Seems typical guy thing.

Yeah, being particular and good at dressing oneself doesn't negate being intuitive at all.

[Kim]

This alone screams sensor to me. I have yet to meet an ILE who describes his way of dressing with this nuance AND confidence. SLE >>>>>>>>> ILE (also based on my overall impression, not just this one post).

Never said being able to dress well is type-related.

[Myst]

This alone screams sensor to me. I have yet to meet an ILE who describes his way of dressing with this nuance AND confidence. SLE >>>>>>>>> ILE (also based on my overall impression, not just this one post).

I thought 2D Se or Si should be sufficient for this much "nuance" in description.

[xerx]

When all pertinent data has been amassed (Ne/Te/Se), organized (Ti/Si/Ni), and systematized (Te/Ti/Se/Si/Ne/Ni) - like in this case, there are technical and budgetary constraints - and exactly one answer eventuates, then any new game plan is an entirely agonizing thing to consider, to me.

Regarding cars, bikes, and brands: intrinsically, the comparisons are irrelevant. A car is better for roads, bike for mountain trails or city roads, etc. so yes, I agree it depends on the usage requirements - once you knew what the requirements were (amassing data) then you'd determine what "thing" you'd need to use (organizing data) and then you'd determine which exact "form" you're choosing (systematize and select).

I understand your analogy to writing. However, there are no constraints in creative expressions of art or literature, unlike a more technical or scientific "creative" control where the input from others is beneficial.

I hear you about "playing the long game". That is what is necessary but I find the politicing and salesmanship to be dreadful and depressing.

I'm sceptical that one answer is always (or even occasionally) the endpoint of anything more open ended than pure logic. Perhaps that opinion is partially based on type differences.

Anyway, when I referred to creative control (which, in retrospect, probably wasn't the best choice of words), I also meant figuring out any well-established technical details for myself. Coming up with your own solution is a creative process. Could I make it easier by relying on other people? Probably, but that's not how I roll --- not that there's anything wrong with doing things cooperatively (or any way you like!).

[Suz]

but about the cartoon: if anything, i think i do things in a "more complicated," way b/c it's the only way I can learn (by getting all of the Ti). it can be a liability depending on the task.

I definitely resonate, but I I took the point of the cartoon to be about the person being annoyed at the individual wanting to do it the easier way thereby sacrificing quality. I resonate with the annoyance at such things, too.