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Thread: People-people vs non-people-people

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Default People-people vs non-people-people

    Musing aloud:

    There's effectiveness in relationships and effectiveness in... how shall I put it... getting external things done. I am pretty good at the former and strive for the latter. Even when "emotionally disregulated" (learned that term yesterday), I still have habits and tendencies and "well, that's obvious" patterns that allow me to create and maintain beneficial relationships with people at a positive status quo level. This, among other things, contributes to an overall atmosphere of productivity and benefit (things that I value).

    For example, I'm running a team and on this team there is some interpersonal conflict. Two people each consider the other a slacker and other less nice terms. One in particular has a strong dislike for the other. However, they both really like and have a fondness for me and because they do they are still getting their respective tasks done, explicitly for my sake. Which means the project is much more likely to succeed at a higher level, benefiting not only those two but everyone else and more.

    HOWEVER, I feel I suck at actually consistently doing things myself. (Especially right now.) It takes mental energy and focus for me to get my own large projects done - or some small ones, for that matter. I have to really set myself up for success for it to happen, plan, strategize, write lists, etc. Especially write lists, haha. And it doesn't take much to throw me off. I mean, based on feedback I've received, I'm probably average or even above average when it comes to accomplishing things, but that's more because I want it than I'm competent (IMO). Or, perhaps, my competency is hard-won rather than innate. AND it seems my most visible achievements would not have been possible without my positive relationships.

    So that's one part of what I'm thinking.

    Then there's the other part:

    I see people who are competent at actually doing things, really smart, capable, skilled, and even driven, but they, uh, leave a wake of negativity and upset people behind them. Which then bites them in the rear when they try to achieve things that go beyond brushing your teeth effectively or making a good lunch (i.e. stuff that's purely in one's own personal sphere).

    There seems to be this attitude of "people are stupid and I don't care how they feel because it doesn't affect me." Especially when they get grumpy or feel attacked. Empathy is impractical (to them, it seems).

    This kind of disturbs me. I see so much potential in them, but then it's like, "Well, there goes that bridge. Now we can't cross that river and get to all the good stuff on the other side." It's not just bad for them and their goals but for all sorts of other people, like the ones that could benefit from them doing stuff.

    Occasionally, one of these types of individuals will let me close enough to team up: I indicate how to interact with people (or just do it all myself) and they make implementation decisions. We mutually trust each others' strengths. That's actually the case with another member of my team, who has gained a reputation for making people mad in the community but is playing a very helpful role in my project and has yet to piss anybody off, even on the team.

    But more often these types of people seem to brush off my insights into how and why to get along. I'm not sure why they reject me. Because, from my perspective, it's infinitely more productive long-run to have good relationships. And these really capable people could go so much further if everybody wasn't mad at them / disliked them.


    So:
    - Should this bother me as much as it sometimes does?
    - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?)
    - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why?
    - If you're a recovered/ing argument-aholic, what changed your perspective?
    - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    I can help you hit your deadlines. And nothing else.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    I especially like your emphasis on nothing else.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post

    So:
    - Should this bother me as much as it sometimes does?
    - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?)
    - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why?
    - If you're a recovered/ing argument-aholic, what changed your perspective?
    - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head.
    I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of thing bothering you. It would bother any kind, friendly person, and it's your realization that this is a problem that is one of the qualities that makes you kind.

    Where i differ from you though, Minde, is that i dont think intervention will really do much. When people are behaving in that difficult way, it means they are unhappy people on the inside. You telling them they need to change isn't gonna fix the unhappiness inside. Also I strongly believe that people cant change unless they want to change, and in that case they will change themselves. That said, it doesn't hurt for such people to be called out on their toxicity; they should know how they are affecting others. Some of them can be oblivious or just not realize how much of a detriment even to themselves they are (if they dont care about others).

    Girl, i hear you on the deadlines! I struggle with it myself! I can cheer u on though...
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    I am sort of the complete opposite. If only I could maintain a small handful of mutually (and collectively) beneficial relationships, I would get a lot more done and obtain much larger-scale results. I continually fail in meeting my own expectations and personal goals/ambitions precisely because of my deficiency in interpersonal matters; and consequently end up doing almost everything by myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    - Should this bother me as much as it sometimes does?
    Only if it benefits or helps you in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?)
    You seem to be doing fine in that regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why?
    Because that's what I see and I don't know any better.

    But I don't think empathy is impractical, I think I have too much of it. Now, if you're talking "empathy" as in overlooking things like incompetence, insincerity, dishonesty, lack of seriousness, not sticking to an agreement, etc., then no, I don't empathize. I try to be soft towards people, but it always ends up firing back at me and I come back to realizing that being harsh but fair is much more preferable, i.e., the right way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head.
    What do you need?

    Some general tips:

    - Don't think about deadlines or how much you have left to do. Try to focus solely on doing what needs to be done.
    - If there's too many things and you don't know where to start, just pick a task and see it through the end. Repeat.
    - If you can't focus, distract yourself with something completely unrelated to the things that need to get done. Take a few hours, a day or two off. Get back to work.
    Last edited by Park; 05-22-2015 at 04:39 AM.
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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suz View Post
    I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of thing bothering you. It would bother any kind, friendly person, and it's your realization that this is a problem that is one of the qualities that makes you kind.

    Where i differ from you though, Minde, is that i dont think intervention will really do much. When people are behaving in that difficult way, it means they are unhappy people on the inside. You telling them they need to change isn't gonna fix the unhappiness inside. Also I strongly believe that people cant change unless they want to change, and in that case they will change themselves. That said, it doesn't hurt for such people to be called out on their toxicity; they should know how they are affecting others. Some of them can be oblivious or just not realize how much of a detriment even to themselves they are (if they dont care about others).

    Girl, i hear you on the deadlines! I struggle with it myself! I can cheer u on though...
    Yeah, I agree about the wanting it for oneself part, for sure. The only people I've seen change have made internal realizations and decisions to do so. The frustrating part is that it doesn't even have to be about kindness - it's really actually practical. Sure, I perhaps have extra motivation because I like seeing people happy; that makes it a lot easier to do the little things that add up. But one does't even have to care about others' feelings to have consideration for them for the sake of good results down the road.

    Although... maybe one does?


    ...Is it really so repulsive to be nice that you're ok with shooting yourself in the foot?! I must be missing something somewhere. (not "you" as in you, @Suz, just a generic "you")


    Caveat: I realize drama has entertainment value, for some more than others.


    Thanks for the cheering


    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I am sort of the complete opposite. If only I could maintain a small handful of mutually (and collectively) beneficial relationships, I would get a lot more done and obtain much larger-scale results. I continually fail in meeting my own expectations and personal goals/ambitions precisely because of my deficiency in interpersonal matters; and consequently end up doing almost everything by myself.
    Ok, yes, you're another person on the spectrum. You have for quite awhile realized the benefits, just the how-to's don't come naturally, is what you seem to be saying. I assume the best advice comes from people who know your situations well, yes? But then there're also generalized "how to be nice" ideas, too. Do you find it difficult to trust those sources?

    I ask because when it comes to practical things, I either take advice from someone who actually knows my situation or from things like articles or YouTube where I can extrapolate myself how it applies. The in-betweens where someone tries to tell me what to do but doesn't grasp the full scope just gets annoying usually. So I wonder if that's similar on the opposite side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    But I don't think empathy is impractical, I think I have too much of it. Now, if you're talking "empathy" as in overlooking things like incompetence, insincerity, dishonesty, lack of seriousness, not sticking to an agreement, etc., then no, I don't empathize. I try to be soft towards people, but it always ends up firing back at me and I come back to realizing that being harsh but fair is much more preferable, i.e., the right way to go.
    Hm, the type of empathy I mean is being able to put myself in their place (or close enough - there is some guesswork involved). The goal/result is not overlooking the negatives at all but understanding what best to emphasize so as to (either subtly or explicitly) encourage them to not have those unhelpful behaviors. (I'm not above getting third-party advice from others, especially older folks who have been around these blocks.) Depending on how aware I keep myself, that works 80+% of the time. Most of the remainder usually requires boundaries of a cause and effect nature. (e.g. "if you continue to lie to me I will have to have extra verification before I believe you" or "you are toxic to me and you need to leave me alone" or even "I can't count on you to complete your work so you're fired"). There are times when I react overly-emotionally or over-analytically and wreck everything.

    There's a difference between being evenhanded and fair and being combative and malicious. Sometimes the two get mixed up. And it can actually be really hard to find the balance between justice and mercy - I definitely need to work on that myself.



    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    What do you need?

    Some general tips:

    - Don't think about deadlines or how much you have left to do. Try to focus solely on doing what needs to be done.
    - If there's too many things and you don't know where to start, just pick a task and see it through the end. Repeat.
    - If you can't focus, distract yourself with something completely unrelated to the things that need to get done. Take a few hours, a day or two off. Get back to work.
    What I need is something that I won't get. I'm dealing with an unusual (to me) and deep loss, and it's thrown me off. I stopped being productive for a month and a half and now I have a huge backlogged pile of work. If I just had work to do that'd be fine, but the stress of the hugeness and overwhelmingness of the pile paralyzes me...

    Part of the problem is it's my responsibility in the majority of what I need to do to set and guide everything through these deadlines. So I can't exactly ignore them. I can delegate some, but even that takes mental energy and sometimes just doing the task is quicker than explaining to someone else what needs to be done.

    Thank you for the tips
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    I think that Delta STs will always appreciate the advice you have regarding how to deal with people.

    Especially around EIIs, I hint all the time about how I'm weak at dealing with my relationships with people. When I complain about how people-skills are difficult, it's because I'm looking for advice in these things. An EII then sometimes responds by saying how she's personally successful at those things. Grah. That's great that you're successful and you don't have my same problems because you're good with people, but I would prefer it if you gave me the dummy's guide on how to do it too. I'm so incompetent at the thing that I don't even know how to phrase my requests for help. And you're so good at the thing that it doesn't even cross your mind that other people could really use your help.

    I know that Delta STs want your advice. LSEs do the same thing where they make ethical mistakes and make people angry, and they vaguely understand that something's going wrong but they can't pinpoint it. LSEs sometimes ask me for psychological / relationship advice directly. But I don't know how to help him. I'm just as bad. He'll share the issues that are occupying his mind. These are usually people problems, and he's looking for either affirmation or correction of what he's done because he knows that he didn't handle his situation perfectly but he doesn't know how to improve. He'll accept any corrections in a graceful way. If we talk about our weakness and we ask you for your opinion, it's because we would appreciate your help, and we're fully aware that we have this weakness and that it's holding us back.

    Regarding stupid people: mostly, "people are stupid" if interacting with them is annoying and with too much friction. In a lot of cases, I get the feeling that I'm more productive working on my own and that trying to discuss or work with these grating people is not worth the investment. I think it's mostly Socionics for me. I don't know if it's the same for everyone else, but I'm mysteriously sensitive to Socionics. Maybe in a self-fulfilling way? Anyways, I can't spend too much time with Alphas, Betas, and Gammas. Deltas are fine, so people aren't universally stupid. It's just too bad for me that the most of the world isn't Delta, though. It's inevitable that there are non-Deltas in my groups, and then I have to make myself antisocial so I don't have to waste energy on people I can't deal with. Do ethicals have better tolerance for interacting with people outside of their native quadra?

    I don't know about those deadlines. We don't know what work you're doing. You could share the details. Or maybe it would be better if you blatantly begged for help from a Delta ST in your workplace.

    I tend to get most work done if I manage to believe that it's actually important. So if I find myself unmotivated, I try to strategize my life goals. Is this thing actually important to me? Is this thing actually important to the world and to the people around me? And so after thinking through the strategy and the validity of my goals, I end up less distracted.

    The "importance" aspect is one side of motivated productivity. The other side is in somehow actually finding effective ways forward. I tend to do this in an exploratory way: just try everything. Discard everything that doesn't personally work for me. Keep exploring in all the directions that are productive and that keep generating progress. You mentioned making lists, and that works for me too. When I'm confronted with a problem, I make lists of every facet of how I can analyze the problem to understand it, and I make lists of every solution that comes to mind, and I explore all these individual points. Discard or keep.

    That's my method, and I don't know whether that information is relevant to you. You said you have problems following through? Like I said, following through with an idea is easier for me if I believe that the idea is worthwhile. That's why I try to explore and evaluate the ideas before I take action. Strategizing first is how I work. But, maybe as a low-Te, you think you have problems evaluating the effectiveness of different plans of action?

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    I thought about typing up a massive reply but I just realised I would be keeping you off your work

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    I thought about typing up a massive reply but I just realised I would be keeping you off your work
    Hahaha, noooooo! I want to reply to esq and that'll take time anyway so you might as well. I know: sometimes I respond ridiculously well to small rewards (it's one of the mental tricks I use on myself), so how about I get a nice long response if / when I get a certain amount of work done?

    I love long, thoughtful replies. It's one of the things I miss about certain people being gone (from here).
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    So:
    - Should this bother me as much as it sometimes does?
    - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?)
    - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why?
    - If you're a recovered/ing argument-aholic, what changed your perspective?
    - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head.
    I prefer to live life on a bulldozer so I kind of get what you talk about with low empathy inidivduals. My usual way of thinking about important stuff from other people is, "Done now and faster and it better be perfect." Even tho I'm not perfect or particularly fast, there is still that sort of impulsive expectation.

    I don't mind too much if people fail, but more if they self-sabotage/sabotage things because they got irritated with me. This is why I do things usually thru agents who aren't bothered by my impulsive expectations and can convey what I want to other individuals in a soft manner.

    I would say that it's not advisable to try to change these individuals except to the point where they are capable of conveying their thoughts properly and not escalating situations. The most important thing in a work enviroment is to keep things professional between individuals that don't like each other and cover the flaws of other individuals while utilizing their strengths.

    I don't think people are stupid unless they're like really incompetent and malicious, and even some incompetent/malicious people have skills. It's more important imo to find the right task for individuals and then place them beside other individuals who can help them communicate with other members of the team, either at a relationship level or technical level.

    If you work in a creative or competitive field, individuals in that field will have a vision of what they want and they're willing to fight for it. This is a good thing, and it matters very little how much conflict there is as long as everyone is disciplined enough to get the job done. Some of the best work I've done is under intense interpersonal conflict and mostly to fix problems others did not see as problems breaking all sort of boundaries and essentially invalidating someone else's work. It's not that this individual, who is competent and did the bulk of the work did not do their job, but they lacked the vision to compete and refine something into a creative and competitive product.

    Creative and talented people are willing to go to war for their ideas and goals, and if they're not they just don't care enough. Also in a way, they will only work towards these idea and goals. Really creative and competitive people know this and they've been thru a lot of wars and probably learned a lot of interpersonal lessons in these wars, sometimes they soften up a bit other times they get hardened and more stubborn. They also know who they can't and can work with and know that their talents are wanted elsewhere.

    For me there can't too many cooks in the kitchen, so you don't want a team full of individuals that want to impose their vision, there needs to be people that do other kinds of work and are willing to step aside but also some individuals who will challenge each other's vision with reality.

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    hmm. i live w/ deltas and work w/ deltas and most often encounter deltas socially, when i venture out, so here are my (super honest, and super overly personal) thoughts:

    the problem w/ Fi is that it feels oddly mercenary to me, b/c it's so tied in w/ Te. "does this person really like me, or do they just want to leverage our relationship to reach some specific result?" of course, in the Fi user's brain, it doesn't appear like that. practical results and positive relationships to them, are both very positive, and beneficial to everyone. but very often their "practical result" doesn't matter to me, or doesn't feel like the only way, so i feel used anyway, even though i feel an internal obligation to try to contribute for other people's sake.

    i think i feel awkward specifically b/c they have decided that these results are also what is better for me, and it comes across very much in the rhetoric-- as if they can't just say that it's not actually better for me, but better for most people, so "here's what we're doing," etc. the latter seems fair, and i would happily adjust. maybe deltas think Te/Fi is naturally in the interest of everyone, when it might not be, or when the benefit of the end-goal actually has to be communicated more explicitly for it to even register. ()

    in sum: i don't know what sorts of people you work w/. sometimes being "harsh" w/ people can work better (or even feel better to the receiver) than softly "nudging."

    how this translates overall into advice you can actually use and implement, i'm not sure.

    #edit... i'm so stubbornly and unyieldingly alpha, i've realized... it's not the same as real flexibility either

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    hmm. i live w/ deltas and work w/ deltas and most often encounter deltas socially, when i venture out, so here are my (super honest, and super overly personal) thoughts:

    the problem w/ Fi is that it feels oddly mercenary to me, b/c it's so tied in w/ Te. "does this person really like me, or do they just want to leverage our relationship to reach some specific result?" of course, in the Fi user's brain, it doesn't appear like that. practical results and positive relationships to them, are both very positive, and beneficial to everyone. but very often their "practical result" doesn't matter to me, or doesn't feel like the only way, so i feel used anyway, even though i feel an internal obligation to try to contribute for other people's sake.

    i think i feel awkward specifically b/c they have decided that these results are also what is better for me, and it comes across very much in the rhetoric-- as if they can't just say that it's not actually better for me, but better for most people, so "here's what we're doing," etc. the latter seems fair, and i would happily adjust. maybe deltas think Te/Fi is naturally in the interest of everyone, when it might not be, or when the benefit of the end-goal actually has to be communicated more explicitly for it to even register. ()

    in sum: i don't know what sorts of people you work w/. sometimes being "harsh" w/ people can work better (or even feel better to the receiver) than softly "nudging."

    how this translates overall into advice you can actually use and implement, i'm not sure.

    #edit... i'm so stubbornly and unyieldingly alpha, i've realized... it's not the same as real flexibility either
    It's always been strange to me that people at work want to form strong long term relations, friendship or otherwise. For me I wouldn't attempt to form a relation with someone while working with them unless it was a relation that began before working or it was after I left a job. Friendship gets in the way of honest criticism and professional behavior. I certainly understand that it happens and it's not something to be prohibited, but I just find it strange people engage in this sort of behavior so commonly and frivolously. To me work is work, and you must never let friendship or relationships at work compromise the end result. There are people I would be friends with if I left work and would keep up with them, but I find often people get into games of networking and socializing that compromises objectivity. It often ends up with a poor result which ends up with the dissolution of relationships as individuals are fired/removed for their failures and repressed conflicts flair up. I guess it does work tho, because networking does allow these individuals to find another job much easier. It's so common work partnerships/relationships turn sour and end in disaster.

    I'm not sure my mode of operation is great either as I think I am isolated at work and people are afraid to interact with me, I tend to destroy people's self-esteem by fixing problems that take them days to solve in 5 minutes. Showing more fallibility and vulnerability, asking for help makes you easier to approach it seems.

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    It's always been strange to me that people at work want to form strong long term relations, friendship or otherwise. For me I wouldn't attempt to form a relation with someone while working with them unless it was a relation that began before working or it was after I left a job. Friendship gets in the way of honest criticism and professional behavior. I certainly understand that it happens and it's not something to be prohibited, but I just find it strange people engage in this sort of behavior so commonly and frivolously. To me work is work, and you must never let friendship or relationships at work compromise the end result. There are people I would be friends with if I left work and would keep up with them, but I find often people get into games of networking and socializing that compromises objectivity. It often ends up with a poor result which ends up with the dissolution of relationships as individuals are fired/removed for their failures and repressed conflicts flair up. I guess it does work tho, because networking does allow these individuals to find another job much easier. It's so common work partnerships/relationships turn sour and end in disaster.

    I'm not sure my mode of operation is great either as I think I am isolated at work and people are afraid to interact with me, I tend to destroy people's self-esteem by fixing problems that take them days to solve in 5 minutes. Showing more fallibility and vulnerability, asking for help makes you easier to approach it seems.
    yeah i think the worldview is that friendship increases productivity and facilitates being on the same page. that's the ideal- it works out weirdly depending on how people actually mesh. and then that increases people's needs to form their own alliances, as buffers against other people who don't understand their work processes.

    it's really just a blown up version of elementary school.

    but really i think the major problem is that most people aren't in jobs/ used in ways by management that are maximizing their strengths. and sometimes jobs that would utilize their strengths don't really exist. so people just keep soldiering on.

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    So:
    1.) - Should this bother me as much as it sometimes does?
    2.) - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?)
    3.) - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why?
    4.) - If you're a recovered/ing argument-aholic, what changed your perspective?
    5.) - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head.
    1.) Its okay to feel put out by others and entilled.

    Try being bitchy a little bit back when it happens. They try and pull those things over you, throw in a snarky comment, the ones you might bite your tongue with before you say them. Say them anyway.

    Them: "Ryan is not going to be happy you are not coming in on Monday at 5 am to get that early job finished."
    You: "Is Ryan my boss?"
    Them: "No"
    You: "Then I don't care what he thinks". (Maybe you do, but thats besides the point).

    Overkill? Maybe....Its going to rock the boat between you for sure. You are going to feel icky. Do it anyway. Its how boundaries are formed.

    2.) Let them know.

    "Oh I'm sorry, I only help people who are not grumpy with me."
    "Wow" under your breath.
    Or just let their behaviour slide, remembering knowledge is power.

    A sense of humour is your friend.

    3.) You are an INFj... you know the answers to that question already.

    4.) Life experience and a habit of cultivated conscience-awareness / personal integrity. Acceptance of things that cannot be changed, outside and inside myself. Charisma.

    5.) Death by thousand (Te-suggestive) cuts.....

    "Hey, I'm not sure how to work the photocopier to get both sides printed?"
    "Is it possible to tell me how to highlight this form so that all the even numbers are copied?"
    "Where does the referral phone list live?"
    "I'm trying to figure out the best way to process this report?"
    "He can you help me just put this desk over here for better light?"
    "When you go to the kitchen could you grab me a small cup of coffee? I will return the favour?"
    "Hey how do you get the documents to merge together if working with pdfs?
    "I was at the warehouse the other day and was looking for the .....?"
    "Dammit, I can't figure out how to get this thing started?!"
    "She wants me to do it this way..how do you guys do it?"
    "During the pre-service meeting you said that you wanted it done this way...I have no idea what you meant."

    Eventually it all gets done. Don't lump everything together in one big tactical maneuver. Break it up and involve others in each question that arises. Find a problem: solve a problem. They feel good. You feel good. Of course, you have to actually do the work yourself. But involving your people makes it feel less of a mountain. At least thats how I see it.
    Last edited by wacey; 05-23-2015 at 05:35 AM.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Ok, yes, you're another person on the spectrum. You have for quite awhile realized the benefits, just the how-to's don't come naturally, is what you seem to be saying. I assume the best advice comes from people who know your situations well, yes?
    The best advice usually come from people who know me well (not necessarily my situations, but that helps of course) and people I'm drawn to and trust.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    But then there're also generalized "how to be nice" ideas, too. Do you find it difficult to trust those sources?
    I'm not interested in "how to be nice" ideas, I need social etiquette assistance and help with expressing my intentions accurately through my actions. Regulating boundaries and distance in a more balanced manner is something I probably need to learn, too.

    And yes, if I like and respect you, I will take your advice over some generalized ideas from arbitrary sources. Trust is an important factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Hm, the type of empathy I mean is being able to put myself in their place (or close enough - there is some guesswork involved). The goal/result is not overlooking the negatives at all but understanding what best to emphasize so as to (either subtly or explicitly) encourage them to not have those unhelpful behaviors. (I'm not above getting third-party advice from others, especially older folks who have been around these blocks.) Depending on how aware I keep myself, that works 80+% of the time. Most of the remainder usually requires boundaries of a cause and effect nature. (e.g. "if you continue to lie to me I will have to have extra verification before I believe you" or "you are toxic to me and you need to leave me alone" or even "I can't count on you to complete your work so you're fired"). There are times when I react overly-emotionally or over-analytically and wreck everything.
    You sound like a human being. Congrats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    There's a difference between being evenhanded and fair and being combative and malicious. Sometimes the two get mixed up. And it can actually be really hard to find the balance between justice and mercy - I definitely need to work on that myself.
    And why is maliciousness associated or put together with combativeness? They don't have to go hand in hand. They are unrelated essentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    What I need is something that I won't get. I'm dealing with an unusual (to me) and deep loss, and it's thrown me off. I stopped being productive for a month and a half and now I have a huge backlogged pile of work. If I just had work to do that'd be fine, but the stress of the hugeness and overwhelmingness of the pile paralyzes me...
    I understand, I've been there myself. Just hold on and do your best.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Thank you for the tips
    I only shared what has worked for me. You're welcome.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    - Should this bother me as much as it sometimes does? - I wouldn't be bothered that it bothers you.
    - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?) - I would not think this is easily doable, the only way to do it is in case of authority where you can enforce certain behaviors/patterns. They will revert back to their old self the moment they can.
    - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why? - I'm not.
    - If you're a recovered/ing argument-aholic, what changed your perspective? - I'm not.
    - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head. - I got myself into a habit of making everything transparent and set a routine to follow through most of the stuff. When deadlines are visible and you have certain reporting in place, it becomes almost impossible to postpone as you constantly are in the position where you need something to complete. It does not mean you do not do everything at the last possible moment, but you make so many milestones that is becomes both easier and more likely to follow through. So far this was the only thing that helped me meet my deadlines.
    Looking for an Archnemesis. Willing applicants contact via PM.

    ENFp - Fi 7w6 sp/sx
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    johari nohari
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    I'm an IEI who is ironically good at getting external things done/business-y stuff, and my relationships could use some work I guess but I prefer being by myself, in my own little dream world where I only invite in a special VIP few.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Guys, I love these responses. Thank you so much for being so thoughtful.


    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    I think that Delta STs will always appreciate the advice you have regarding how to deal with people.
    Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. When they're mad at me, definitely no. When they're mad in general, usually no. When I've done something "stupid," no.

    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    That's great that you're successful and you don't have my same problems because you're good with people, but I would prefer it if you gave me the dummy's guide on how to do it too. I'm so incompetent at the thing that I don't even know how to phrase my requests for help. And you're so good at the thing that it doesn't even cross your mind that other people could really use your help.
    First function problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    Deltas are fine, so people aren't universally stupid.
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    It's just too bad for me that the most of the world isn't Delta, though. It's inevitable that there are non-Deltas in my groups, and then I have to make myself antisocial so I don't have to waste energy on people I can't deal with. Do ethicals have better tolerance for interacting with people outside of their native quadra?
    Hm, that's a good question. It's possible, at least on a surface level. Push closer past a certain relational level and I think things can still break down just as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    I don't know about those deadlines. We don't know what work you're doing. You could share the details. Or maybe it would be better if you blatantly begged for help from a Delta ST in your workplace.
    I work at home as a freelancer.

    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    I tend to get most work done if I manage to believe that it's actually important. So if I find myself unmotivated, I try to strategize my life goals. Is this thing actually important to me? Is this thing actually important to the world and to the people around me? And so after thinking through the strategy and the validity of my goals, I end up less distracted.
    It's important I do this work for two reasons: 1) survival and 2) sense of integrity.

    Quote Originally Posted by esq View Post
    That's why I try to explore and evaluate the ideas before I take action. Strategizing first is how I work. But, maybe as a low-Te, you think you have problems evaluating the effectiveness of different plans of action?
    If I have experience in certain areas then it's easier to evaluate effectiveness. I think I wing a lot of my planning, at least in terms of stuff I've done before. In other areas, where it's new, sometimes I over-plan, preparing for a wide variety of contingencies. I like having "kits" where there's a toolset or pack of supplies that goes with certain scenarios that I can just pick up and run with if I don't have time to plan. That applies to coding or camping. That said, I don't actually have too many of those. I'm always tweaking and trying new things is too appealing.



    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I don't mind too much if people fail, but more if they self-sabotage/sabotage things because they got irritated with me. This is why I do things usually thru agents who aren't bothered by my impulsive expectations and can convey what I want to other individuals in a soft manner.
    That seems a smart way to handle it - if you can't adjust yourself, find an intermediary.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I would say that it's not advisable to try to change these individuals except to the point where they are capable of conveying their thoughts properly and not escalating situations.
    Yes, while I don't like how grumpypants operate sometimes, I do realize that to try to alter them too much would just be mean and unnatural.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    The most important thing in a work enviroment is to keep things professional between individuals that don't like each other and cover the flaws of other individuals while utilizing their strengths.
    An EIE I used to work with would use the verse, "love covers a multitude of sins," while encouraging us to do just that - covering for each other. She was good at setting atmospheres.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I don't think people are stupid unless they're like really incompetent and malicious, and even some incompetent/malicious people have skills. It's more important imo to find the right task for individuals and then place them beside other individuals who can help them communicate with other members of the team, either at a relationship level or technical level.
    Agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    For me there can't too many cooks in the kitchen, so you don't want a team full of individuals that want to impose their vision, there needs to be people that do other kinds of work and are willing to step aside but also some individuals who will challenge each other's vision with reality.
    Part of my own internal struggles is accepting that there are forms and times of conflict that are actually good.



    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    hmm. i live w/ deltas and work w/ deltas and most often encounter deltas socially, when i venture out, so here are my (super honest, and super overly personal) thoughts:
    I love it! Keep the honesty coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    the problem w/ Fi is that it feels oddly mercenary to me, b/c it's so tied in w/ Te. "does this person really like me, or do they just want to leverage our relationship to reach some specific result?" of course, in the Fi user's brain, it doesn't appear like that. practical results and positive relationships to them, are both very positive, and beneficial to everyone. but very often their "practical result" doesn't matter to me, or doesn't feel like the only way, so i feel used anyway, even though i feel an internal obligation to try to contribute for other people's sake.

    i think i feel awkward specifically b/c they have decided that these results are also what is better for me, and it comes across very much in the rhetoric-- as if they can't just say that it's not actually better for me, but better for most people, so "here's what we're doing," etc. the latter seems fair, and i would happily adjust. maybe deltas think Te/Fi is naturally in the interest of everyone, when it might not be, or when the benefit of the end-goal actually has to be communicated more explicitly for it to even register. ()
    This is very insightful, and I really appreciate seeing what I'm saying from this different perspective.

    You are right that you're more than an instrument, but I can also see how it would come across like that. Or even be like that for some people. I can take note that explicitly stating how doing things benefits us (or someone) directly can be helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    in sum: i don't know what sorts of people you work w/. sometimes being "harsh" w/ people can work better (or even feel better to the receiver) than softly "nudging."
    For sure. And that's not my area of strength. Which is why I can be thankful for people who are more comfortable with conflict.



    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    It's always been strange to me that people at work want to form strong long term relations, friendship or otherwise. For me I wouldn't attempt to form a relation with someone while working with them unless it was a relation that began before working or it was after I left a job. Friendship gets in the way of honest criticism and professional behavior. I certainly understand that it happens and it's not something to be prohibited, but I just find it strange people engage in this sort of behavior so commonly and frivolously. To me work is work, and you must never let friendship or relationships at work compromise the end result. There are people I would be friends with if I left work and would keep up with them, but I find often people get into games of networking and socializing that compromises objectivity. It often ends up with a poor result which ends up with the dissolution of relationships as individuals are fired/removed for their failures and repressed conflicts flair up. I guess it does work tho, because networking does allow these individuals to find another job much easier. It's so common work partnerships/relationships turn sour and end in disaster.

    I'm not sure my mode of operation is great either as I think I am isolated at work and people are afraid to interact with me, I tend to destroy people's self-esteem by fixing problems that take them days to solve in 5 minutes. Showing more fallibility and vulnerability, asking for help makes you easier to approach it seems.
    This is also a great perspective. For me, friendship lets me critique more effectively. But I can also see how it might hinder correction, yes. Perhaps there can be a balance for you between not being Friends but still having at least a veneer of approachability? I read a blog post recently on that.

    As a freelancer, friendships have been very valuable. As long as I do my job well and don't cheat them, I can usually count on the relationships lasting or at least not going too sour.

    Also, I've found a lot more people approaching me recently... saying a variety of things, for a variety of reasons. I've become a bigger target for all sorts of things it seems. I'm thankful for most of them.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    1.) Its okay to feel put out by others and entilled.

    Try being bitchy a little bit back when it happens. They try and pull those things over you, throw in a snarky comment, the ones you might bite your tongue with before you say them. Say them anyway.
    I think it must take practice. Sometimes my snark goes well, sometimes not. Baby steps...

    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    A sense of humour is your friend.



    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    3.) You are an INFj... you know the answers to that question already.
    True, I can have a pretty good idea. But sometimes it helps to have someone say their reasoning aloud.


    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Eventually it all gets done. Don't lump everything together in one big tactical maneuver. Break it up and involve others in each question that arises. Find a problem: solve a problem. They feel good. You feel good. Of course, you have to actually do the work yourself. But involving your people makes it feel less of a mountain. At least thats how I see it.
    Involving people is easier when they sit right next to me. But, yes.

    ...Maybe that's why I'm going crazy right now. Because while I'm in this weak state I can't do my natural move (reach out for help) because I'm working in an isolated environment. More food for thought...



    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I'm not interested in "how to be nice" ideas, I need social etiquette assistance and help with expressing my intentions accurately through my actions. Regulating boundaries and distance in a more balanced manner is something I probably need to learn, too.
    Well, "being nice" is often the social grease that can help get to the more "real" aspects of relationships. See the blog post I linked to above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    You sound like a human being. Congrats.
    Thanks, I try. Well, I think I try. Apparently it's possible I'm a sociopath. So, uh, watch out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    And why is maliciousness associated or put together with combativeness? They don't have to go hand in hand. They are unrelated essentially.
    They are two separate things, yes. But they can show up at the same time. And, ime, combativeness can be used as a weapon by malicious people. And sometimes attacking people can have bad results regardless of intention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I understand, I've been there myself. Just hold on and do your best.
    Trying *sigh*



    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Ssmall View Post
    - Can someone please help me hit my deadlines? I'm way past over my head. - I got myself into a habit of making everything transparent and set a routine to follow through most of the stuff. When deadlines are visible and you have certain reporting in place, it becomes almost impossible to postpone as you constantly are in the position where you need something to complete. It does not mean you do not do everything at the last possible moment, but you make so many milestones that is becomes both easier and more likely to follow through. So far this was the only thing that helped me meet my deadlines.
    Good advice, thank you



    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I'm an IEI who is ironically good at getting external things done/business-y stuff, and my relationships could use some work I guess but I prefer being by myself, in my own little dream world where I only invite in a special VIP few.
    You know, I know quite a few IEI-like people who are great at being effective and successful.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    This is also a great perspective. For me, friendship lets me critique more effectively. But I can also see how it might hinder correction, yes. Perhaps there can be a balance for you between not being Friends but still having at least a veneer of approachability? I read a blog post recently on that.

    As a freelancer, friendships have been very valuable. As long as I do my job well and don't cheat them, I can usually count on the relationships lasting or at least not going too sour.

    Also, I've found a lot more people approaching me recently... saying a variety of things, for a variety of reasons. I've become a bigger target for all sorts of things it seems. I'm thankful for most of them.
    I think being kind is very important, and to me kindness is the most basic virtue. And even a low level sort of work friendship is beneficial, for me there are people I collaborate better with and that's just the way it is. I try to be helpful and kind, but I'm never sure if I succeed.

    Departmental and hierarchical difference exist no matter how you attempt to horizontally structure an organization and bridging these gaps is where I find the most difficulty, I'm not sure how it is as a freelancer.

    It is very difficult for problems to escalate from app support to me and then have me solve it within 5 minutes after it's been escalated, this creates a lot of pressure for someone to solve problems internally within the department, which can create a communication black hole. Similarly it's also very difficult for me to get to a problem for a few weeks because I can't get to it constructively or it's wrongly escalated or I'm just not paying attention.

    Also sometimes the escalation happens at a point where almost everyone has forgotten the details of the problem after weeks of delay, the communication gap is often multifaceted, the support team doesn't want to disappoint the client and they don't want me to give them the sort of hard stop where they are forced to inform the client that there is no solution.

    Kindness solves a lot of these problems, or at least keeps people collaborating, but over time I see a lot of disintegration and gradual widen of divides. I think this is one of those situations where the only real options for the individuals in question is re-organization of some sort, yet this is quite difficult to achieve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I think being kind is very important, and to me kindness is the most basic virtue. And even a low level sort of work friendship is beneficial, for me there are people I collaborate better with and that's just the way it is. I try to be helpful and kind, but I'm never sure if I succeed.

    Departmental and hierarchical difference exist no matter how you attempt to horizontally structure an organization and bridging these gaps is where I find the most difficulty, I'm not sure how it is as a freelancer.

    It is very difficult for problems to escalate from app support to me and then have me solve it within 5 minutes after it's been escalated, this creates a lot of pressure for someone to solve problems internally within the department, which can create a communication black hole. Similarly it's also very difficult for me to get to a problem for a few weeks because I can't get to it constructively or it's wrongly escalated or I'm just not paying attention.

    Also sometimes the escalation happens at a point where almost everyone has forgotten the details of the problem after weeks of delay, the communication gap is often multifaceted, the support team doesn't want to disappoint the client and they don't want me to give them the sort of hard stop where they are forced to inform the client that there is no solution.

    Kindness solves a lot of these problems, or at least keeps people collaborating, but over time I see a lot of disintegration and gradual widen of divides. I think this is one of those situations where the only real options for the individuals in question is re-organization of some sort, yet this is quite difficult to achieve.
    It's amazing how many times it all comes back to communication and doing so with kindness.

    As a freelancer, it seems I'm able to cross organizational gaps easier than someone who is in the midst of them. Perhaps because it's more forgivable of me to break protocol or established habits because I'm not expected to know all those rules. I can both joke with the CEO (who I knew from years ago and who suggested me to the team) and take orders from the intern. When it comes to workflow I do try to fit in with the status quo, though sometimes for the sake of efficiency I'll bend those rules. People are much more likely to let that go if I've convinced them I'm on their side.

    Also, based on what friends who do the same work but as employees tell me, for some reason contractors tend to get treated with a little more respect, at least in terms of running things by me and getting my opinion on things. Like I know one extremely talented guy who is getting super frustrated with his company (which, by the way, looks awesome on paper) because he's getting treated like a movable cog with no brains.

    @Director Abbie mentioned entropy earlier and I think it happens with human relationships just like in the physical world. It takes energy to even maintain a cohesive collective of individuals. Energy and a desire for it.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    thanks for being so kind @Minde. I felt like I was actually being overly nitpicky/critical, and over pushing my viewpoint to the extent of not giving my delta roommates/bosses more credit.

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    God, I suck at teams. I feel really bad telling other people what to do, so I just end up doing all the work.

    Plus, I can't work on anyone else's schedule (or any schedule)
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    thanks for being so kind @Minde. I felt like I was actually being overly nitpicky/critical, and over pushing my viewpoint to the extent of not giving my delta roommates/bosses more credit.
    You seemed to give plenty of benefit of the doubt to them. You were looking at the same situation from two perspectives while owning your own. I think that's not only great but a facet of maturity. And it's super useful to me because I know you can see from my perspective (which engenders trust) and then you are clearly saying how it all affects you. Since I'm forgetful and habit-bound I might not utilize it right away, but it's there now and hopefully in the future it'll help me treat others like you better.
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Edit: Yawn
    Last edited by Words; 05-27-2015 at 11:11 PM.

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    Here's my mega problem with all this.

    People decide what they want to be. Do they want to be unsociable? They decide. Do they want to earn more money at work? Decide.

    People make their own decisions. If they are making decisions which damage them, such as being inhospitable to everyone they work with, then they are deciding to not do anything about their disposition or attitude.

    It's something they have decided and it's up to them.

    Not sure why it needs all this talking?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    It's always been strange to me that people at work want to form strong long term relations, friendship or otherwise. For me I wouldn't attempt to form a relation with someone while working with them unless it was a relation that began before working or it was after I left a job. Friendship gets in the way of honest criticism and professional behavior. I certainly understand that it happens and it's not something to be prohibited, but I just find it strange people engage in this sort of behavior so commonly and frivolously. To me work is work, and you must never let friendship or relationships at work compromise the end result. There are people I would be friends with if I left work and would keep up with them, but I find often people get into games of networking and socializing that compromises objectivity. It often ends up with a poor result which ends up with the dissolution of relationships as individuals are fired/removed for their failures and repressed conflicts flair up. I guess it does work tho, because networking does allow these individuals to find another job much easier. It's so common work partnerships/relationships turn sour and end in disaster.

    I'm not sure my mode of operation is great either as I think I am isolated at work and people are afraid to interact with me, I tend to destroy people's self-esteem by fixing problems that take them days to solve in 5 minutes. Showing more fallibility and vulnerability, asking for help makes you easier to approach it seems.
    You're low responsive http://changingminds.org/explanation...ial_styles.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Well, "being nice" is often the social grease that can help get to the more "real" aspects of relationships. See the blog post I linked to above.
    I guess I wasn't very clear; let me put it this way. I know HOW to be nice. WHEN, TO WHOM and WHY to be (or not to be) nice is what a I struggle with. My judgement fails me and I make mistakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    They are two separate things, yes. But they can show up at the same time. And, ime, combativeness can be used as a weapon by malicious people. And sometimes attacking people can have bad results regardless of intention
    They are likely to show up at the same time as much as they are likely not to show up at the same time. Combativeness can be used as a weapon by well-meaning people, and sometimes attacking people can have good results precisely because, or even regardless, of intention. So I think this is completely redundant.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    - What are some ways I can, um, shake my brand of sense into these people when I need to? (is that even advisable?)
    Make them understand the consequences of their behavior. It's advisable but I think they will disregard the advice in specific situations (I had to learn it the hard way and I still disregard it anyhow, sometimes...).

    - If you're one of these "people are stupid" people, why?
    Just my 2c, for me it happens as a reaction to a competitive environment, where I feel the need to place myself in a superior position else I'll be easily attacked by others. Doesn't happen in environments where I don't feel this need. (Could be different for other people - they may be more competency driven).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    Friendship gets in the way of honest criticism and professional behavior..
    Nah. F.e. I will generally listen carefully to any kind of criticism coming from a person I consider a "friend". Otherwise (if the person's not a friend9 I'm always thinking that criticism may just be meant to undermine my postion / make me look weak / make me more vulnerable.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I guess I wasn't very clear; let me put it this way. I know HOW to be nice. WHEN, TO WHOM and WHY to be (or not to be) nice is what a I struggle with. My judgement fails me and I make mistakes.
    That makes sense. I make mistakes, too. (as you well know...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    They are likely to show up at the same time as much as they are likely not to show up at the same time. Combativeness can be used as a weapon by well-meaning people, and sometimes attacking people can have good results precisely because, or even regardless, of intention. So I think this is completely redundant.
    Yes, intention vs. effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Make them understand the consequences of their behavior. It's advisable but I think they will disregard the advice in specific situations (I had to learn it the hard way and I still disregard it anyhow, sometimes...).
    That sounds a lot like how someone who self-types as LSE responded to me, that getting a better understanding of the effects of their decisions helped change some of the way they interact with others. But that understanding seemed to have to happen in their own timing; external pressure to change didn't work and even backfired sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Nah. F.e. I will generally listen carefully to any kind of criticism coming from a person I consider a "friend". Otherwise (if the person's not a friend9 I'm always thinking that criticism may just be meant to undermine my postion / make me look weak / make me more vulnerable.
    I can relate to this.
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