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Thread: I need to know what Te means to you

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    Default I need to know what Te means to you

    I'm thinking about LIE and LII, and I need to figure out the gist of what's not in the descriptions regarding Te. They all talk about practicality and in general, Te descriptions give off this air of "These are the men and women of the corporate world." So help demystify this for me. I can say that I relate to a lot of the LIE description fairly well, specifically when it speaks about awkwardness and being okay with just talking information for pleasure.

    Some gamma quadra descriptions say you guys only like to talk about serious stuff. To me, "serious stuff" can be an idea outside of its application. Otherwise, what would you have to talk about? You're not going to implement every single idea that you have.

    A lot of the LII description doesn't match up with me either, particularly in how I think I come off socially. I don't react in the same way the descriptions say.

    (Don't harp on me about paying attention to descriptions, just smartly contradict them if you will).

    Ok, I would type more but I'm time pressed, I will come back for more later.

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    Check this. It's an interesting POV about the dynamics of TiFe vs TeFi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    They all talk about practicality and in general, Te descriptions give off this air of "These are the men and women of the corporate world." So help demystify this for me.
    Ok so I don't have a ton of time to really respond to your post like I'd like, but I don't think it's very accurate to associate LIEs with the corporate world. I think there is a general inclination toward business (also engineering in some ways) for LIEs because they like having independence and being able to enact an idea and have an impact in a field. I'd definitely stress the independence aspect because working in a corporation is sort of the career equivalent to staying in school. You are more or less assigned all of your work, you take orders, you are stuck on specific schedule, and you will probably be number crunching or doing something else very dry. I think almost every LIE would hate that. LIEs would probably like the independence to be creative in their field and implement new ideas. Entrepreneurship is probably more fitting for LIE since they like taking risks and having an impact. Types that like the corporate world would be closer to ISTj, ESTj, or maybe IXTps.

    Some gamma quadra descriptions say you guys only like to talk about serious stuff. To me, "serious stuff" can be an idea outside of its application. Otherwise, what would you have to talk about? You're not going to implement every single idea that you have.
    Yeah that's correct. I think by serious stuff they just mean more intellectual ideas that have some sort of relevancy to the LIEs life/worldview/future/or practical applications. I personally get very bored when talking about pure science (astronomy or geology or something like that) that doesn't inform my worldview or help me build on some sort of insight I've been thinking about recently. And maybe I'm ILI instead of LIE but most of my abstract ideas/insights are definitely not business ideas.

    Maybe I'll respond to your post more thoroughly when I have time.
    Last edited by Contra; 05-10-2015 at 09:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Check this. It's an interesting POV about the dynamics of TiFe vs TeFi.
    I have a bit of a problem with this. Can Te users really say that they blanket trust one source, if they've decided it's good? There are many types of sources: newspapers, journals, concentrated experiments, surveys, essays,on and on. So an LIE goes through these, and on the basis of who seems trustable on an ethical level, chooses their sources? That seems pretty ridiculous. Personally, I do pay attention to the reputation of my source, in considering to what degree I should cut the person slack. But beyond that, it has to make sense. What rational isn't going to evaluate something on terms of if it makes sense. Sure, there are initial sources we must go to to base all our information on, but when we first reach these sources, we very rarely have the ability to evaluate the truth of the claim, because the claims themselves are frameworks proposed from absent facts and as yet unknown principles. In that case, does an LIE decide based on if the person can be trusted? If so, they open themselves to a large blindspot. Will they eventually reexamine their views on the basis of what is clearly contradictory to them?

    If they don't reexamine, and you could call this my bias, but I seriously doubt this claim has any validity, it would seem to contradict what allows for fully-formed opinions.
    @Contra
    I get very bored by pure science as well. I have come to discover that principle discovery, such as work Alan Turing or Vi Hart(annoying math youtuber) would do, is not my cup of tea, and I can't really think in that way. I've always had problems with proofs, I guess because I lack focus on all the possibilities of universal structure. At the same time, I can't say that I dislike applying my ideas to life. I guess it boils down to this, whereas (possible) Ti would be concerned with these overarching rules, I would be concerned with turning them into weird(or simply intuitive in the colloquial sense) ways of doing something if I have no goal, and if I do have a goal, create as comprehensive a solution as possible, i.e. make it run on rails(if I'm being paid). So I think I may have understood the difference between my mindset and Ti-Ne, which will annoy Myst if true.

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    If there is a source of information that I find is typically correct, then I tend to trust that source for all information in that field. Take for instance the dictionary, i've not disagreed with it yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    If there is a source of information that I find is typically correct, then I tend to trust that source for all information in that field. Take for instance the dictionary, i've not disagreed with it yet.
    What informs your definition of correct? You wouldn't notice if something seemed off?

    Think I might be coming off like a dick with this and the above post, it's just one of those days.

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    http://rickdelong.com/socionics/works/socion2.shtml

    Perception of the external dynamics of an object — its movements in space

    Perceives information about animate and inanimate objects' physical activity, deeds, and actions/activities. This perception provides the ability to make sense of what is going on. It defines the awareness of and ability or inability to think up ways of doing things, distinguish rational actions from irrational ones, and the ability or inability to direct others' work.

    When this element is in the leading position, the individual has the ability to plan his and others' work, understand the logicalness and illogicalness of processes, and correct the work activities of other people in accordance with this understanding. And the ability to apply personally and convey to others the most rational ways of doing things.
    if could be pure and operate alone (which it cannot in a person), it would simply record what is happening. i'll try a lovely example made up on the spot. let's say you're on a stakeout and it's your job to observe Subject A. you record and log the stirrings in the compound:

    0614 - curtains opened by unknown subject, window left of front door
    0822 - Subject A exited front door and paced back and forth on the patio
    0903 - white car entered driveway, unknown subject emerged, Subject A hurried to unknown subject, got in car

    etc.

    you make no inferences about how Subject A felt, what Subject A's motivations were, what Subject A's relationship may be to the unknown subject in the car, why Subject A peered out the window at 6:14, etc. you stick with the facts of the unfolding situation. that is what happened.

    obviously this example is too simple. and obviously even it isn't "pure Te." but the point is that you are watching the dry facts of what is happening. of course the human mind can actually do more with this. if you know Subject A is a drug runner who is hiding in the house and doesn't know he's being watched, you may be able to assume many of the mysterious visitors and trips have to do with his business dealings. you can match the data of when he went on these trips with certain presumed drug sales that happened elsewhere that others on your team monitoring. you can gradually unravel this entire business and how it operates the more you observe. you are trying to understand, once again, *what is happening.*

    --

    if this is your leading function, your awareness of "what is happening" will override other areas of awareness. so for instance if you know x is true, but observe something that directly contradicts x (something that would be impossible were x in fact true in the way you know), you don't say "i must have observed wrong, that can't be." you first and foremost stick with what you know of what is happening. any structured comprehension of the world may be easily scattered to the winds as you gather more data. (of course there are problems with this... obviously one may doubt one's own sanity in certain situations if they happened to see the supposedly impossible; and obviously since the mind is wired to survive in a constantly changing environment, it isn't going to want to throw out important information that it needs to understand its situation.)

    although, that doesn't really work because *anyone* can for whatever reason not want to believe something right in front of their face.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-11-2015 at 04:06 AM.

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    Are you trying to figure out if you are an LIE or an LII? If so, ask yourself if you prefer a comfortable life to a self-directed one. Or, you could just hang out with the Duals of the two respective types and see which one you like better. An ESE will take care of you and look after your health, and an ESI will correct your ethics and will tell you she's worried about the future and will look for solid reassurance, which an LIE will provide effortlessly.


    But if you are asking for a definition of the differences between Te and Ti, there is a pretty good one here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V45AK1qCmJ8
    at 4:00 minutes in or so. As a definition, I think it is pretty good.


    On the other hand, you specifically asked what Te means to you (or rather, to LIE's like myself). That's hard to answer, because it is like asking what water means to a fish. You might be better off asking a person, who does not have Te but who observes it, what they think Te users are doing differently than what they themselves do.


    I can tell you what I, as a novice, think is the operational difference. My opinion relates to the description in MensSuperMateriam link. Te users think in terms of process. How can we get to our goal, what things will we need, which paths are alternately available in case a plan goes wrong, what is the potential profit and loss of the endeavor? How much can I trust the information I am getting, because accurate information is essential to accurate planning? I believe that Ti users look at a world of individual facts and ask themselves, how do these many facts fit into my theory? Each different fact should fit into my theory, because if it doesn't, I might need a new theory. But I probably don't need a new theory.
    Here is a short example. An IEI, who is a Ti user, is interested in me. She already knows I have boatloads of Ni and more Se than she does, and wants to know if I also use Ti, like the SLE Dual whom she's really looking for would have. I should mention that she knows nothing about Socionics, but she definitely knows what she wants, if only subconsciously. She drew a picture of a paper clip, a very good picture, and asked me what I saw there. I told her, I see a paper clip. She asked me, Don't you see anything else? I replied No, that looks like a paper clip to me. She persisted. Couldn't that be an ear? Or a race track? Don't you see anything else in that picture? I told her “No, that was such a good picture of a paper clip, that that is all I see in that drawing. I can tell you all about how a paper clip is made, how the steel wire is drawn to size and galvanized, how it is cut to length and bent into shape on automatic wire-forming machinery, I can tell you everything you want to know about how to make a paper clip, but I only see a paper clip there.” She was disappointed. She was looking for Ti, or the way many different real-world objects would conform to the image in her mind that she drew on the paper.


    Contra is right about not associating LIE's with corporate executives. You might find young ones there, before they figure out what they really want. If older ones are in corporations, it is usually because they are being paid really well to stick around, or because they have a great deal of autonomy to do what they want. LIE's usually simply assume leadership positions, and don't even always know how that happens. I had fourteen jobs before I started my first company (at 31), and rose pretty quickly through most of those companies before I would get bored and quit. (I started very young, and some of those jobs didn't last very long.) I started a company because I got tired of working for bosses who were incompetent, stupid, arrogant, evil, ignorant, mean, or punitive. I knew I might not be a better boss than the ones I had had, but at least there was the possibility of changing my boss, which there usually is not when you work for someone else.


    Like Contra, most of my ideas are not about business, but are instead about efficiently getting to a goal while still making money, because money is a measure of how you are doing. Fortunately, you don't have to be a great business thinker to stay in business. You only need to have customers.

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    I think in order to get the crux of what Te means and how it functions it's crutial to distinguish the Jungian from the colloquial definition of subjective and objective. In certain instances they're complete opposites and that's the basic mistake a lot of people make.

    I had a uh "discussion" with inumbra the other day on the shoutbox and it seemed like he/she and all the other present IEIs were having actual trouble understanding what Te means because they kept defaulting to "well, Te is Mad Men suits and stern expressions and sociopathy". One reason for this is that socionics is kinda centered on Alpha quadra as its starting point and a lot of the descriptions are a little biased from a Ti perspective. But Te goes much deeper than corporate world and management of finances.

    It's also important to understand that Fi / Te and Fe / Ti are both very different in functioning and it's easier to confuse Fe for Te, and Fi for Ti and vice versa. For instance, both Fe and Te are dynamic extroverted elements, and their functioning is analogous to one another, whereas Te and Ti are sort of two ends of the same stick.

    There is a great deal that's already been said on this topic so I'm not going to say much, but a useful suggestion: start with jung and subjectivity/objectivity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    I have a bit of a problem with this. Can Te users really say that they blanket trust one source, if they've decided it's good? There are many types of sources: newspapers, journals, concentrated experiments, surveys, essays,on and on. So an LIE goes through these, and on the basis of who seems trustable on an ethical level, chooses their sources? That seems pretty ridiculous. Personally, I do pay attention to the reputation of my source, in considering to what degree I should cut the person slack. But beyond that, it has to make sense. What rational isn't going to evaluate something on terms of if it makes sense. Sure, there are initial sources we must go to to base all our information on, but when we first reach these sources, we very rarely have the ability to evaluate the truth of the claim, because the claims themselves are frameworks proposed from absent facts and as yet unknown principles. In that case, does an LIE decide based on if the person can be trusted? If so, they open themselves to a large blindspot. Will they eventually reexamine their views on the basis of what is clearly contradictory to them?
    Imo you have not properly understood the ideas exposed in the thread. They are an expression of cognitive bias, that should not be taken to the extreme. Expat did an excellent job commenting the faults of every cognition in a neutral way, without presenting any case as inherently better than the alternative. He also made quite clear that no healthy person adopts a radical position about this:

    It is self-evident that (1) any healthy person, extrovert or introvert, needs the input of external information and (2) no healthy person accepts every external information uncritically. Everyone has what I will call "internal filters" that help them pick up, from external information, what is "useful" or "useless", what "rings true" and what "sounds like nonsense". We all have observed cases - here or IRL - of equally clever individuals saying things to each other like "you're so naive to believe that" or "isn't it obvious?" etc. This happens because people have different "filters". When the "filters" are, say, "calibrated differently", then of course you have different views on what is obvious or not, or on what you should believe or not.
    Also:

    Unnecessary disclaimer: as in anything in socionics, these are trends, not absolutes; obviously Fe-Ti quadra types will also develop preferences for one source over others, if it turns out to be consistently reliable; and the other way around for Fi-Te. But I think that when there are moments of mutual incomprehension and accusations, that's how it tends to happen.
    For explaining a situation as clear as possible, limit cases are quite useful, because they present the highest degree of contrast. For the FeTi vs TiFe division, extreme examples could go as follows:

    -A FiTe valuer that once a source has been subjectively chosen as absolute, would be trusted blindly. Like if the source says 2+2=3 in one page and 2+2=5 in the next one, and still, the source is right (!!!)... A Fi valuer is also Ti devaluer, logical consistency will be ignored due to the subjectively assigned validity. Religious nutjobs, for example.
    -A TiFe valuer that because as something makes sense to him/her, it's automatically true even if evidence points otherwise. For example, conspiranoid nutjobs. Anti-vaccinantion groups; corporations are "evil" (neither I affirm this nor the opposite) so they have to do evil things -> vaccines do not actually prevent diseases but they spread them (!!!)... You can see how logical consistency is chosen above factual evidences.

    These are extreme cases representing unhealthy beahvior. No healthy person will usually be like this: because an Fi leading has still Ti role and vice-versa (etc), because everybody can acknowledge his bad inclinations and learn to correct them and... because common sense.

    Imo the easiest way of observing this FiTe vs TeFi differences could be in those situations which are inherently subjective (no answer is objectively better). In such circumstances, everyone will naturally be inclined to choose according to his own nature.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 05-11-2015 at 11:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Imo you have not properly understood the ideas exposed in the thread. They are an expression of cognitive bias, that should not be taken to the extreme. Expat did an excellent job commenting the faults of every cognition in a neutral way, without presenting any case as inherently better than the alternative. He also made quite clear that no healthy person adopts a radical position about this:



    Also:



    For explaining a situation as clear as possible, limit cases are quite useful, because they present the highest degree of contrast. For the FeTi vs TiFe division, extreme examples could go as follows:

    -A FiTe valuer that once a source has been subjectively chosen as absolute, would be trusted blindly. Like if the source says 2+2=3 in one page and 2+2=5 in the next one, and still, the source is right (!!!)... A Fi valuer is also Ti devaluer, logical consistency will be ignored due to the subjectively assigned validity. Religious nutjobs, for example.
    -A TiFe valuer that because as something makes sense to him/her, it's automatically true even if evidence points otherwise. For example, conspiranoid nutjobs. Anti-vaccinantion groups; corporations are "evil" (neither I affirm this nor the opposite) so they have to do evil things -> vaccines do not actually prevent diseases but they spread them (!!!)... You can see how logical consistency is chosen above factual evidences.

    These are extreme cases representing unhealthy beahvior. No healthy person will usually be like this: because an Fi leading has still Ti role and vice-versa (etc), because everybody can acknowledge his bad inclinations and learn to correct them and... because common sense.

    Imo the easiest way of observing this FiTe vs TeFi differences could be in those situations which are inherently subjective (no answer is objectively better). In such circumstances, everyone will naturally be inclined to choose according to his own nature.
    What does health mean in this context? I suppose thats a big question that basically amounts to "psychologically unbalanced vs balanced" or "at norm level functioning." Still, it can just be argued that either extreme case is just poor reasoning and not being open to redefinition of the objective.

    I am not quite convinced for the need for this distinction in typing myself or anyone self typing yet..It's morning though maybe Ill realize it later.
    Last edited by ouronis; 05-11-2015 at 01:58 PM.

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    Te is watching what a person is doing...let's say someone buys a lot and figures the ideal job for that person...."you should be in purchasing for a big company" should is a judgement

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    Te is more dominant, Ti is more stubborn.

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    Te is more of a fragmented, step-by-step, immediate way of figuring out how to do something (from my POV).

    Like you can pick apart immediately how to get something done, without thinking much about underlying principals. You move things around until your desired result comes into place.

    Ti seems to be more "big picture" but slower. (again, biased perspective.)

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    Default he passed the can of worms, then i opened it . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    I had a uh "discussion" with inumbra the other day on the shoutbox and it seemed like he/she and all the other present IEIs were having actual trouble understanding what Te means because they kept defaulting to "well, Te is Mad Men suits and stern expressions and sociopathy". One reason for this is that socionics is kinda centered on Alpha quadra as its starting point and a lot of the descriptions are a little biased from a Ti perspective. But Te goes much deeper than corporate world and management of finances
    you really badly misrepresented this discussion. so i've taken the time to post the actual shoutbox conversation. it's in the logs. i tried to make it easier to read and not going backwards. i used excel, so hopefully it didn't screw anything up.

    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:47 AM
    around the time i left the forum was full of horrible vi threads
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:47 AM
    of like just typing people off of pictures
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:47 AM
    which ones?
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:47 AM
    it was stupid
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:48 AM
    i see the forum as free of that shit now
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 12:48 AM
    VI is still present
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:48 AM
    The vi stuff is just as bad as cooking = si, to me. The whole almond eyes, narrow chin, must be blah blah shit. Its genetics.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    VI is supreme
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    VI is actually the only empirically valid thing about socionics
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    yeah velvet, but it's not nearly as bad, imo, as it was
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    VI is not genetics
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    and i mainly agree pookie
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    yeah well i totally disagree on that radio
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:49 AM
    but yeah, VI is the only part of socionics that has some empirical and scientific validity
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    Some of the ways its used it is.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    back when ashton, jriddy, allie, dolphin were making post after post based on pictures alone, i thought that was supremely stupid
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    VI is complementary but not fully valid
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    there have been studies conducted on big 5 traits and visual appearance
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    If someone mentions the shape of a feature to indicate a type, theyre wrong. Point blank.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    and there are definitely correlations
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:50 AM
    and they wouldn't even bother explaining themselves
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    it was posts of vague nonsense
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    correlation isn't everything
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    eh
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    are you not listening to what i'm saying
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    ....
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    how is it vague
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    at all
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 12:51 AM
    big 5 is not set in stone and can change
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:52 AM
    do begin with you have to understand this is circular reasoning
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:52 AM
    you decided that certain people are certain types (there's no way to objectively prove that, not now)
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:52 AM
    Im sure there are some things that work from appearances. Focus in the eyes, way you hold your face. I just see alot of nonsense get thrown in w7th it.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:52 AM
    then you do some picture matching
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:52 AM
    can you not see how this is entirely subjective
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:53 AM
    i've taken science courses in college and have a fair grasp of what counts as actually worthy data to draw conclusions off of - socionics is NOT science
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:53 AM
    it's dangerous to start treating it as though it is
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:53 AM
    the thing about VI, or at least the ashton / dolphin / jriddy approach was that it's extremely Te
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:53 AM
    it's based entirely on shared pool of knowledge
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:53 AM
    it's not
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    and the more people that contribute ~ the more accuracy it leads to
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    in my opinion it's extremely fe
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    it's about reading people's "energy"
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    that is totally what fe focuses on
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    I can be ok at VI but I evaluate more what they say
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    uhhhh
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    sure it can be Fe too
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:54 AM
    i'm not saying that
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    no the more people that contribute the more you get an echo chamber where everyone becomes of one mind
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    Objectivity in socionics is not something I like. Theres no experience being used, or else it would be subjective. All the insight thats been useful to me has been from understanding and analyzing experiences.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    i'm saying the socionix approach is Te
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    already seen here: looks bitchy therefore ILI. Or EIE
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    and i'm saying it's not
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    yes inumbra that's exactly what Te is @inumbra lol
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    the echo chamber effect
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    is exactly what Te is
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:55 AM
    in essence
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:56 AM
    like Fe is an echo chamber of FEELINGS
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:56 AM
    no te is reading external dynamics of fields objects... changing processes based on reality
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:56 AM
    forming an echo chamber of categories is ti
    Director Abbie - 05-10-2015 12:56 AM
    The Sticky Note has been updated!
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:56 AM
    Echo chamber is anything with crowds really Say something with confidence and people agree.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:56 AM
    inumbra, you are IEI.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    ti is about classification and making that system of classification make sense internally with itself
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    i feel like i'm not getting across literally anything to you.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    right, radio, and this is the predictable response from you
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    which is ok.
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    I think you are, I just think you disagree
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    i'll just wait for ananke to come and translate everything i'm saying to you in Ti terms.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:57 AM
    which is also ok.
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:59 AM
    Trying to backtrack to what you guys were disagreeing with... VI is Te?
    Aquagraph - 05-10-2015 12:59 AM
    Trying to stay sober is so hard when you can afford not to.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 12:59 AM
    i realize you're not going to agree but tell me how the echo chamber thing is not creating a static system?
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 12:59 AM
    radio is being a pretentious prick right now I AM[/B] AM[/B]used
    Radio - 05-10-2015 12:59 AM
    anyway, this topic started as me saying expat and co are a sham, like i mean niffweed needs $3000 to conduct a socionics experiment. i wouldn't trust him with my milkshake.
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 12:59 AM
    Hah nice aqua
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:00 AM
    i'm saying the whole thing where you look at a photograph and come up with "vibes" and "energy" and all of this stuff is Fe
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:00 AM
    that's what Fe reads
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:00 AM
    Oh yeah, I agree with that. No one should be charging for this shit. Its taking advantage and poisoning the well.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:00 AM
    okay, i'm going to explain this very slowly.
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:01 AM
    Just took a look, they got 282 bucks
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:01 AM
    don't patronize me, radio
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:01 AM
    then don't ask me to explain.
    Aquagraph - 05-10-2015 01:02 AM
    This conversation is not going to end with mutual understanding.
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:02 AM
    Funding UnsuccessfulThis project's funding goal was not reached on on April 17.
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:02 AM
    Te is very objectivity relied
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:03 AM
    I don't see what can be 100% objective in VI
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:03 AM
    neither do i
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:03 AM
    Identical twins would always be the same type if VI was based off of objective features correct? I dont believe they are identical types always just by nature of being identical twins.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:03 AM
    okay you guys are looking at objectivity in Ti terms.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:04 AM
    also Te is dynamic... so it's not about coming up with a static classification system... it has to change as new information comes in
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:04 AM
    Aqua, the vibe seems to me to be mutual expression moreso than understanding
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:04 AM
    you are looking at objectivity in terms of hard truths, like a square has 4 sides and justice being an platonic ideal etc.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:04 AM
    which makes sense for Ti, sure, those are very static properties of T function and in jungian terms they're all SUBJECTIVE, not objective.
    Anglas - 05-10-2015 01:05 AM
    VI is illuminati confirmed
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:05 AM
    Ti is interested in static classification systems, and is not quick to change them... after evidence to the contrary overwhelms the system, the system is revolutionized…
    so Ti changes in spurts... because it's static and has to be forced to change
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:05 AM
    jungian objectivity is something else, it's not what we think of colloquially as objectivity.
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:05 AM
    Ti power
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:05 AM
    that's not how i'm looking at objectivity radio
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:06 AM
    this is how i'm looking at it
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:06 AM
    when you talk about objectivity in jungian terms it means things that need to be, um sort of confirmed by other people before their truth can be verified.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:06 AM
    lets say you live in a land of many rabbits and they all cross the road at noon and all move eastward
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:06 AM
    for example, how many people need to verify that a square has 4 sides before it's considered true? zero.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:06 AM
    therefore, it's subjective = Ti.
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:07 AM
    I can have as much confirmation as you want but if I decided something, I won't change my mind. That's not what I call Te
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:07 AM
    I was. I was taking objectivity in the literal sense. Unarguable, no interpretation beyond the facts.
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:07 AM
    you then say that you have observed the following objective data: rabbits all cross the road at noon and they all move eastward... you say this is how rabbits work
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:07 AM
    then you notice certain rabbits start moving westward instead of eastward
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:07 AM
    immediately you alter your understanding of rabbits to account for the new data
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:08 AM
    you question why the change, what happened, what causes a rabbit to move one way or another
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:08 AM
    the point is you constantly are open to the dynamics of the situation
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:08 AM
    it's the end of the world I have no more tea at home
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:08 AM
    this is why scientific theories change when new evidence is discovered... this is an objective process based on observation
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:08 AM
    Drink tap water
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:08 AM
    I found an old box expired since 2013, I hope I won't die
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:09 AM
    Mans greatest invention
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:09 AM
    objectively you are right
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:10 AM
    that's just... openness @inumbra
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:10 AM
    it's neither Ti or Te
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:10 AM
    but I want to drink tea so I will even if it's expired
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:10 AM
    openness as a trait =/= type related
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:11 AM
    it was a simple example on purpose. but i don't think we're going to understand each other. unlike you though, i'm not going to immediately decide you're a certain type based on the discussion
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:11 AM
    I think you guys have ventured to deep in the rabbit hole trying to explain something that on simple terms you both would agree on.
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:11 AM
    eh
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:11 AM
    you probably are IEI
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:12 AM
    also that you see this as openness reveals you don't understand what i'm trying to communicate (as in i'm not doing a good enough job of explaining it)
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:12 AM
    i'm not even arguing that
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:12 AM
    it's just obvious to me at this point
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:12 AM
    but i don't mean that as a put-down
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:12 AM
    inumbra I get what you mean
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:13 AM
    i just sort of verbalized it because it went through my head since you are so resistant to my badass Te powers
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:13 AM
    i'm glad someone does, velvet... sigh...
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:14 AM
    radio, as supposedly Te DS, you have no Te powerz
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:14 AM
    gurl pls
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:14 AM
    Te, the shortcut to smart
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:15 AM
    i get what you mean regarding static / dynamic, but you are ultimately describing it from the Ti perspective, you're describing how a static T type approaches situations which require dynamic T
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:15 AM
    nonsense, Te is bullying
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:16 AM
    whatever that means... if you're defining Ti/Te based on yourself radio and what you do... i can't really use that
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:16 AM
    what i was trying to communicate was the opposite way around, a dynamic T dabbling into static T
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:16 AM
    Bullying = smart
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:16 AM
    in my mind, i don't know what type you are... i only know your self-type
    Velvet - 05-10-2015 01:17 AM
    make love, don't fight
    Radio - 05-10-2015 01:17 AM
    don't attempt to make me feel bad because you're too stupid to understand what i'm saying
    Pookie - 05-10-2015 01:17 AM
    Uhoh
    inumbra 05-10-2015 01:17 AM
    i'm not attempting to make you feel bad
    some of the remarks like Te=bullying were obviously facetious. was sociopathy mentioned anywhere? mad men suits? i mean, what?

    anyway, i think the question of if my examples appear to be te from a ti perspective is worthwhile. you should also know, that i haven't yet succeeded in explaining this in a way that matches the way i see it and am pretty dissatisfied with this.

    eta: also i wouldn't assume necessarily that "all of the present IEIs" were all in agreement or that they all were "having trouble understanding Te because they're all IEIs." each of the people you see as "IEI" obviously had his/her own perspective/understanding.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-12-2015 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    you really badly misrepresented this discussion. so i've taken the time to post the actual shoutbox conversation. it's in the logs. i tried to make it easier to read and not going backwards. i used excel, so hopefully it didn't screw anything up.



    some of the remarks like Te=bullying were obviously facetious. was sociopathy mentioned anywhere? mad men suits? i mean, what?

    anyway, i think the question of if my examples appear to be te from a ti perspective is worthwhile. you should also know, that i haven't yet succeeded in explaining this in a way that matches the way i see it and am pretty dissatisfied with this.
    well then.. i dont really get where objectivity comes into thisall.socionics part of i/e is object vs field.
    Last edited by ouronis; 05-12-2015 at 11:30 PM.

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    well then.. i dont really get where objectivity comes into this at all In the sense radio means it. socionics part of i/e is object vs field.
    also please don't take anything i said about as like *what it is* ... i was trying to explain it as i understood it and failed to.

    eta: i was basically using the dictionary definition of objective when i used that word. when i used it i was questioning the validity of the VI echo-chamber process as a means of typing (as i don't think that's a good way to type people, basically). Radio later transitioned into using it in terms of talking about Te & Ti. when he mentioned the jungian definition i incorrectly thought he was saying i'd been using that definition, which was why i said "no" (he may not have even been addressing me). i wasn't talking about jung in the conversation.
    Last edited by inumbra; 05-13-2015 at 12:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    also please don't take anything i said about as like *what it is* ... i was trying to explain it as i understood it and failed to.

    eta: i was basically using the dictionary definition of objective when i used that word. when i used it i was questioning the validity of the VI echo-chamber process as a means of typing (as i don't think that's a good way to type people, basically). Radio later transitioned into using it in terms of talking about Te & Ti. when he mentioned the jungian definition i incorrectly thought he was saying i'd been using that definition, which was why i said "no" (he may not have even been addressing me). i wasn't talking about jung in the conversation.
    I read it again and I follow the string of conversation better this time. So I guess it's like, Radio sees the validity in non-obvious objectivity and you and pookie want it to be explicitly true. Well that's kind of a mess, because you're both right, you're just fighting for shared space in a word.

    But anyway, what I'm interested in is how say, an echo chamber differentiates from a circlejerk. I think Ti is well capable of generating a circle jerk.
    *goes away*

    *pulls head out of deep dark water*
    Alright I keep second guessing myself with that conversation. I might make a study of it later and finally get down exactly what the fuck is going on there, but it really seems like you guys are miscommunicating every single definition or something. Someone says validity, the other person hears objectivity, someone says science, one hears formal method and the other hears "it must be right if it's science."

    I don't know. I'm probably misinterpreting it.

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    @ouronis i don't know if it's worth a study. it was a terrible blunder.

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    inumbra = IEE
    Radio = some Ti type, maybe ILE

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    This is something that helped me understand Te and Ti differences.


    Extraverted Thinking* - (Te)

    Contingency planning, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking.

    Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on.

    At its most sophisticated, this process is about organizing and monitoring people and things to work efficiently and productively.

    Empirical thinking is at the core of extraverted Thinking when we challenge someone's ideas based on the logic of the facts in front of us or lay out reasonable explanations for decisions or conclusions made, often trying to establish order in someone else's thought process.

    In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else's logic, sequence, or organization.

    It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three.

    In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.
    source
    Introverted Thinking* - (Ti)

    Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point.

    Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it.

    It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles.
    These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea.

    This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work.

    The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency.

    In so doing, we search for a "leverage point" that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system.

    We engage in this process when we notice logical inconsistencies between statements and frameworks, using a model to evaluate the likely accuracy of what's observed.
    Empirical thinking depends on past habits
    It is fairly adequate in some matters
    but is very apt to lead to false beliefs,
    and does not enable use to cope with the novel,
    and leads to laziness and presumption,
    and to dogmatism

    Scientific thinking analyzes the present case
    of scientific method
    Relies on differences,
    and creates differences
    Analysis and synthesis again
    Lessened liability to error
    Ability to manage the new
    Interest in the future or in progress
    Value of abstraction
    Experience as inclusive of thought

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by fatal mistake View Post
    inumbra = IEE
    Radio = some Ti type, maybe ILE
    inumbra IEI-Ni (and Conflictor with Words)
    Radio ESI>EII

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    inumbra IEI-Ni (and Conflictor with Words)
    Radio ESI>EII
    I disagree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This is something that helped me understand Te and Ti differences.
    Isn't that more MBTI than socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    Some gamma quadra descriptions say you guys only like to talk about serious stuff. To me, "serious stuff" can be an idea outside of its application. Otherwise, what would you have to talk about? You're not going to implement every single idea that you have.
    Everything is serious stuff! I'm always working on something, so even mundane and trivial things I hear in conversation and comment on are framed within that scope.


    Quote Originally Posted by ouronis View Post
    A lot of the LII description doesn't match up with me either, particularly in how I think I come off socially. I don't react in the same way the descriptions say.
    What parts of the description don't sound like you?

    You still stuck on your type or have you come closer to having an answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alklonth View Post
    Isn't that more MBTI than socionics?
    Most likely but they are function descriptions independent of type.

    For those more socionics minded:

    : analysis, hierarchy, classification, understanding, order, system, structure, formal logic

    : benefit, efficiency, action, knowledge, method, mechanism, act, work, motion, reason, technology, fact, expediency, economy, asks "why" to get information, facts, analysis collected data to make logical conclusions, law, legal right, generally accepted knowledge and rules/laws is more the realm of Te

    : clarity and exactitude of thought, a sense of order and regularity in different levels of structure; a sense of building a complete system from simple and well-understood parts

    : an active, but steady and purposeful state conducive to performing goal-oriented activities

    See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i....W6PKgSSJ.dpuf

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by lirpa View Post
    Everything is serious stuff! I'm always working on something, so even mundane and trivial things I hear in conversation and comment on are framed within that scope.




    What parts of the description don't sound like you?

    You still stuck on your type or have you come closer to having an answer?
    Ah, you know, my explorations of type are explorations of multiple systems, so there will probably never be an answer. Just a series of weird coincidences.

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    The definition of Te really depends on other functions. I tend to equate Te/Si with a fixation on facts, procedures, and application of concrete information, while Te/Ni is more abstract and focused more on the philosophical origin of knowledge and information(some sort of empiricism), and seems to be constantly refining and building a system to be efficient and true. Te/Ni is more comfortable with ambiguity.

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    I'm not sure how to say it in one sentence...the how, what and why of the external world? Leading to the best possible option?
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    I'm not sure how to say it in one sentence...the how, what and why of the external world? Leading to the best possible option?
    Doesn't have to be one sentence.

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    Te means for me being loud, arrogant, rude and telling people with blunt honesty what I think about the subject.

    It also means being efficient, using V.I instead of reading pages of what the person said or likes, getting a lot of information about different subjects in order to understand better the mechanism of how something works and walking faster than your average dude.

    A 4 line comment is the epitome of efficiency.

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    stronger, faster, weirder
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    Te is explicit productivity, due to implicit understanding and knowledge
    Ti is explicit understanding and knowledge, due to implicit productivity

    Quadra is meaningfully further distinguishing as well in terms of Te vs. Ti.

    That's why the NTs, LIE of Te and LII of Ti from opposing quadras are both basically informational geysers. They both acquire, and use, information, but they do it like the left and right hands of the same person.

    Also, it's totally untrue that quadra gamma *only* like to talk about serious stuff. Obviously people of any quadra can discuss topics of any nature, but gamma likes to primarily talk about things that are relevant and quite grounded due to the nature of their judgment and perception. These can be highly imaginative and theoretical too like alpha does, but the crucial difference here is the "vertness", creating the manner in which it's expressed. This vibe is what people mean when they refer to this quadra as serious. And yet why also some people perceive quadra gammas as oddly optimistic, because internally they actually experience the world in the way that's expressed by alphas externally. And why periodically alphas do seem stressed about reality.

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