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Thread: How to deal with immature ESIs? (Benefactor-Beneficiary)

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    Default How to deal with immature ESIs? (Benefactor-Beneficiary)

    Any ideas on how to deal with immature ESIs? My benefactor has been bullying me lately and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
    In general I feel like they notice my lack of Se and beeline for it. It's weird. Much more vicious interactions than my supervisor. Also they've done stuff like excluding me from groups (including physically standing in my way so I'm further away compared to the rest of the members) and chastising me in public.
    I have gotten along great with SEEs in the past and a few salt-of-the-earth ESIs I have met. I really hate to pin this to any one type, but I'm hoping being specific will yield better solutions.

    Any immature Gamma SF, Ne PoLR or Benefactor experience would be a huge help. For what it's worth, I'm a C-IEI-Fe Type 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    I did see IEIs trying to justify their own difficulties in settling things and marking boundaries with ppl as "I'm being bullied."...when the other was just challenging them to test them or stuff.

    Extremely true for me and I'd appreciate any advice on this!

    Edit edit:
    I found my answer! If I feel "slightly pissed", that is a good indicator of a boundary being crossed (even inadvertently) and the appropriate time to tell the other person. Thank you, @Myst. Invaluable information. Hope this helps others too!
    In the past, I've never known where the "emotion" is coming from, whether it is because I'm cranky, tired, whatever. I've been waiting for "strong anger" to know that something is wrong.

    Last edited by Deer Woman; 05-09-2015 at 04:37 AM.
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    Well, do you want to crush her or just get her to stop acting cunty?
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Well, do you want to crush her or just get her to stop acting cunty?
    hey, do the first one and you can guarantee the second one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Well, do you want to crush her or just get her to stop acting cunty?
    Aiming for second scenario. If I do the first one, I'm contributing to the negative shitstorm that will probably be taken out on someone else.
    I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deer Woman View Post
    Aiming for second scenario. If I do the first one, I'm contributing to the negative shitstorm that will probably be taken out on someone else.
    Youre not going to get a girl whos being such an intolerable scalliwag to stop, short of making yourself a hard target. Meaning, she needs negative feedback. Depending on how well you are ingrained in the group it can be just pointing out aloud how incredibly fucking rude shes being or full on attacking her for being a hypocrit. With immature SFs like that, its usually not hard to spot how their words dont reflect their actions.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Youre not going to get a girl whos being such an intolerable scalliwag to stop, short of making yourself a hard target. Meaning, she needs negative feedback. Depending on how well you are ingrained in the group it can be just pointing out aloud how incredibly fucking rude shes being or full on attacking her for being a hypocrit. With immature SFs like that, its usually not hard to spot how their words dont reflect their actions.
    Thanks!!
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    I am Pookie, destroyer of worlds.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I don't know how "mature" the OP is, but she didn't say what the ESI in question chastised her publicly for or why she wanted her excluded from groups. That person has other reasons .... "lack of Se" doesn't count unless the OP is a flakey wussy or a fake asshole and the ESI can't stand that. There's no concrete fact described in the post. "Lack of Se" shouldn't technically be so much of a problem unless the OP acts like a bona fide doormat and can't defend self. In such a case I don't see any ESI stroking her back and proliferating weakness.
    Last edited by Amber; 05-07-2015 at 09:59 AM.

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    OP,is she jelly? r u getting attention from a guy she likes by being so vulnerable sth sth? such behaviours stem mostly from insecurity. does she feel confident enough to act like that because she feels safe in her herd? move subtly by getting the herd on your side. u dont have to targed the first-line entourage , at least not in its entriety. targed second-line emitters of direction ; authorities that create movement. see... this is like an onion. it will be hard ,meticulous work but noone has to get hurt. eventually she will follow, otherwise she'll be the one to be excluded. show her that the world is a bad bad place and noone needs enemies from such a tender age... or do they....?????? bcuz they can have it.....oh...yeah...they can..... [/effortlessly demented look]

    =/ or do what pookie said .depending on what's (not) at stake, can u just avoid her altogether?what does she chastise u for? trying to deal with this is an exercize. it's one of those things that make us a bit more grounded out of necessity by having to keep track of what others are doing, synthesize information and formulate our thoughts on the spot (most of the time) .it's really hard to do if one doesn't naturally have the drive to get back at others.......................
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deer Woman View Post
    Any ideas on how to deal with immature ESIs? My benefactor has been bullying me lately and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
    In general I feel like they notice my lack of Se and beeline for it. It's weird. Much more vicious interactions than my supervisor. Also they've done stuff like excluding me from groups (including physically standing in my way so I'm further away compared to the rest of the members) and chastising me in public.
    I have gotten along great with SEEs in the past and a few salt-of-the-earth ESIs I have met. I really hate to pin this to any one type, but I'm hoping being specific will yield better solutions.

    Any immature Gamma SF, Ne PoLR or Benefactor experience would be a huge help. For what it's worth, I'm a C-IEI-Fe Type 6w7 Sx/Sp
    Deal with this the way you would deal with any bully. I'd suggest first talking directly to her, and if that doesn't work, realize she's disordered and stay far far away from her. What "solution" are you aiming for, by the way?

    Also, don't listen to Pookie, he's a destroyer of the world.

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    Usually time will resolve the issue. I was bullied only a couple of times. By the time I was ready to engage the bully and be willing to fight them, they had already moved on. Avoidance usually works very well. Some people are horrible at ignoring other people and have to engage them so as to not appear weak. I've always had the opinion that it is the stronger ones that walk away. It can be extremely stressful for the bullied though to have to endure harassment. If anything, just tell them to leave you fuck alone.

    I'd be careful to not assign a cognitive function to the behavior. Benefactor-Beneficiary relationships shouldn't really lead to bullying behavior; maybe if one is extremely unhealthy. Bullies are just unhealthy, insecure assholes with nothing productive to do. They don't go after people with actual power, so they aren't really advancing their own status in any useful way. They pick out the weak and try to take the little power the weak may actually have completely away from them. It's as if they siphon off the collective power of weaker individuals in an attempt to gain a bit more power. You rarely see them go after someone with more power than them.

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    the IEI is prone to thinking pretty much everyone is some kind of "bully" due to their weak Se and Fe "sensitive membrane" ...especially if very young (they tend to feel "peer pressure" and absorb emotions coming from "outside" easily). And they're kinda big on passive-aggression. Knowing a few IEIs, I'm not even sure it's bullying that's going on there.

    I did see IEIs trying to justify their own difficulties in settling things and marking boundaries with ppl as "I'm being bullied."...when the other was just challenging them to test them or stuff. So I'm not convinced the OP is describing everything extremely realistically at this point, because I don't have enough details. What is it that the ESI dislikes about her?

    Also why doesn't she just quit the whole situation if it's uncomfortable and unhealthy? She prolly prolongs conflict. If the ESI wants her to stay away from her, she should keep her distance.

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    That is of course also possible @Amber, in my answer I took for granted that we are talking about an actual bully, meaning somebody it's hard to avoid.

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    yeah ..everything is described in terms of "My Benefactor" ..which is false.

    Is she her boss? a "friend"? what. Context is quite important. Does the OP have to stay in that environment for objective reasons? Can't she just avoid the ESI?

    Not saying it's not possible to actually deal with bullying ...but the original post was only pushing everything in the throat of intertype ..which doesn't help. I did have conflicts with some ESIs myself for various reasons. Just saying.

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    sure, I didn't even take the typings into account as I think she has her own type wrong, lol. (E6 and IEI still isn't a possibility in my book)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deer Woman View Post
    Any ideas on how to deal with immature ESIs? My benefactor has been bullying me lately and I'm not sure how to deal with it.
    In general I feel like they notice my lack of Se and beeline for it. It's weird. Much more vicious interactions than my supervisor. Also they've done stuff like excluding me from groups (including physically standing in my way so I'm further away compared to the rest of the members) and chastising me in public.
    I have gotten along great with SEEs in the past and a few salt-of-the-earth ESIs I have met. I really hate to pin this to any one type, but I'm hoping being specific will yield better solutions.

    Any immature Gamma SF, Ne PoLR or Benefactor experience would be a huge help. For what it's worth, I'm a C-IEI-Fe Type 6w7 Sx/Sp
    In the Toltec framework, there is such a thing known as the Petty Tyrant-

    I'd offer that you read The Second Ring of Power - Carlos Castaneda

    Life places us in with tough people at times who represent the predatory aspect to human nature; in so that life always finds a way in, or a way of molding us and shaping us

    But not everything is cosmic; you could perform any spiritual/social maneuver that has the end result you need

    It 'seems' socionics takes a stance on obtaining a kind of leverage regarding the hidden agenda, sounds like NLP or rapport techniques,

    toying with the target's subconscious and even unconscious

    You also don't have to fly at people's altitudes, even Andrew W.K. claimed talking to a person you have the problem with, was his answer

    If I were evil I'd prescribe that you work 5+ years in retail, you'll see firsthand the depth of that rabbit-hole, regarding people

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    Point out that she's blocking you from the group and tell her you've noticed she is being a huge bitch to you while the situation is occurring (as she might deny it later- I've noticed a trend in many ESIs that they like to play dumb to get away with things...it's incredibly disturbing).
    Make sure to be very specific about her words and actions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    I don't know how "mature" the OP is, but she didn't say what the ESI in question chastised her publicly for or why she wanted her excluded from groups. That person has other reasons .... "lack of Se" doesn't count unless the OP is a flakey wussy or a fake asshole and the ESI can't stand that. There's no concrete fact described in the post. "Lack of Se" shouldn't technically be so much of a problem unless the OP acts like a bona fide doormat and can't defend self. In such a case I don't see any ESI stroking her back and proliferating weakness.
    True the OP could be being a butt too. But nonetheless, we must help her destroy her adversary for she is our butt.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Or Punch her in the face and when she attacks back spread your fingers and jam her in the eyes. When shes on the ground, use elbows. Everyone always forgets elbows.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Words are just words. They probably won't do shit. She's not going to have an epiphany or suddenly be nice you. The most you can do is clear it up with her and if she gets in your way push her, threaten her, tell her to get the fuck out of the way, do whatever you have to do. She's disrespecting you. Avoid her if you'd rather do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    True the OP could be being a butt too. But nonetheless, we must help her destroy her adversary for she is our butt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Or Punch her in the face and when she attacks back spread your fingers and jam her in the eyes. When shes on the ground, use elbows. Everyone always forgets elbows.
    omg I spilled tea laughing

    "Pookie, destroyer of worlds" - indeed.

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    Thanks for all the replies, everyone!

    I'm going to address some of the lack of concreteness here. There are a few ESI incidents. I'm altering some of the events/objects slightly. I value my privacy and would rather others are not able to tie me to my forum accounts.
    Just in case these people mentioned below do not qualify as ESI, I will call them something else instead. These are pretty long. There's a TL;DR at the bottom of each spoiler.

    [X from school]

    Context:
    I was taking a finance class (met 3 times a week). X sat to my left, another person to my right. (towards end of row so no one else after person on the right).
    For the first few weeks, I made small talk with the person to my right. Said "hey" whenever I saw them, asked them how their day went. They replied and seemed happy to talk back.
    X started talking to me at the beginning of one class. I was surprised, because she never said hi before, but was happy to respond. She told me where she moved from. Similar to where I moved from. She said "Us __similar location__ kids need to stick together! It's a hard world out there! I'm just having so much trouble meeting people and finding stuff to do..."
    Me: I'm been finding fun stuff off of x site. It's hard to find events, especially as a newcomer...everyone already has a circle.
    Her: I know! Oh what kind of stuff?
    So I showed her a few examples. I don't remember what these are anymore.
    Her: Cool!
    Then at the end of class, she said bye to me, I said bye to her and she left.

    Next class I came in 5 minutes later (very close to class start). I saw she is sitting where I was sitting.
    Her: Sorry I stole your seat. I hope that's okay!
    Me: No worries. (I really don't care. It's a seat.)
    At the end of the class, I said goodbye, she looked at me, didn't say anything and walked out.

    Class after that
    Her: Oh look...I'm in your seat...again.
    Me: Umm okay. (kind of weirded out)
    Then her and the person on her right turn to each other and start laughing.

    When I would raise my hand in class after that time to answer questions (or when I was called on by the professor to answer a question, she picked people randomly sometimes), X would turn to the person next to her "Oh god...why does she even speak? Everything she says is so stupid...." and they would both laugh. This would not happen when other people raised their hands.

    They would also make remarks about my clothes and laugh about that too. I did a presentation in class (we all had to). X turns to Y "That was horrible...that was so boring...everything she says is just so sad..." (tone meant "pathetic").

    At the very end of the class, we had to submit a teacher evaluation form. We do this within the classroom and are not allowed to leave until it's submitted. I submitted mine first out of everyone. I had to walk up to the teacher's podium in the front of the class to put the paper in.
    "We" sit diagonally from the teacher's podium, one row from the back (about 25 person classroom). X said "She finished already? What did she even write? She probably did it wrong. She's so dumb!" and then they both were laughing again.
    This wasn't a "I think I heard that". It was very audible and clear.

    What I did about it:
    After she started making fun of me when I would answer questions (same day that "Oh look...I'm in your seat...again" started), I didn't attempt to speak with her anymore. Unfortunately the class was very full. There were 1 or 2 seats right in front of the teacher's podium, but it would obstruct my ability to see the board and I get nervous in the front row (bad at paying attention for long periods of time, don't want the teacher to see me doodling).

    I did not go out of my way to ignore X. I stayed civil, but simply never started conversation (except for what I'm about to describe). An attendance sheet would go around the class. The direction it goes involves me passing it to her. If she did not have a pen out at the time, I would offer my pen. I believe there were 2 times where I did not have a pen ready and she offered hers.

    About 1 month in of this, her friend (sat to the left of me, would laugh too, but not nearly as loudly as X and person on the right) starts making small talk with me. Asking how I did on some assignment, asking how my day was, whatever. I responded to her as normal. Did not start conversation with her ever. She probably started conversation with me at least 2 of the 3 meetings a week. One time some water spilled on her laptop. I had napkins in my backpack and offered them to her.

    The last two weeks before finals, X starts talking with me again. She asks me how my weekend is. She says she is "worried about the final exam, because it's not open book. Are you worried about the final exam?" I explain I doubt it will be that bad, because it's all multiple choice (unlike other tests) and because this is the first open book final, most people will probably do worse. The teacher curves. So as long as you maintain the same relative position to the rest of the class, you'll get an A (extra credit boosts it, tests aren't that fatal, especially compared to other class finals).
    For timeline, that whole "teacher evaluation" thing happened the last class before we took the final exam.

    She seemed to scale back once she saw her other friend talking to me and (I suspect) my neutral reactions to all of it. I considered calling her out when she did make remarks about me, but she had more friends in the class in general (befriended about 5 people by the podium, opposite side of class) and it would be very easy for her to deny it "No I didn't, I was talking about something else. You're crazy." And then possibly ramp up in her efforts to make fun of me as I was sitting next to her.

    TL;DR
    X sat next to me in class. Made conversation with me about 2 weeks into the semester. Then proceeded to ignore me and make fun of me with the person next to them for 2 months. X possibly attempted to be civil with me about 2 weeks before finals, but still continued to make fun of me (with that person) at a slightly less frequent scale.


    [Y at boyfriend's relative's wedding]

    Context
    My boyfriend and I drove about 11 hours away to his cousins' wedding (bf = best man). His entire family was there. I say hi to everyone (met them before), including Y. About 30 minutes of general hellos and mingling. I've met Y briefly in the past. We got to the name part, because she had to drive 9 hours to make it back in time for work.
    His sisters and I wound up sharing a room (3 total). This house is beyond its maximum capacity...one or two people slept in the hallway. Y pulls me into there after the 30 minutes of mingling to ask me more about myself (unfortunately I don't remember all of the questions). She tells me she feels like an outsider in the family, because she wasn't adopted by them until she was 5 years old. I don't remember what I said verbatim...something along the lines of "I'm sorry to hear that....that must have been hard."
    Her: Oh well. "Being adopted" problems.
    Then asks me to go through her wardrobe with her to pick something for tomorrow. "What do you think: this or this? I want to make sure I still have an ass in it." Tries on both, I tell her which one shows off her curves better.
    She asks me to tell her more about myself. I get the feeling she wants me to share something deeply personal, but I'm not comfortable doing that with new people (unless I feel a strong connection with them or the conversation somehow leads that way and I use "deeply personal" events as examples). Thought of something personal that I was comfortable sharing: I moved recently, had to quit school back in my old location (subject matter was just too tough) and then start a new major over here. I moved to turn a new leaf.
    Her response "Oh wow...quit school?"
    Me: Yeah

    More mingling for 20 minutes, found out shower schedule. Because the morning was going to be insane, both of us volunteered to shower at night. I asked her if she wanted any time in particular, she said "No, you can go first".

    More mingling again for 45 minutes. Then we all went to bed. Y and I went to the room first. She asks me "What do you and _bf_ fight about?" I'm a little taken aback, but try to answer as honestly as possible "We don't really...sometimes it's like we are about to get into a fight, but it turns into a big joke and we don't care about it anymore."
    Her: Well that's weird.

    Y: Can I borrow your lotion?
    Me: yeah sure
    Y: Can I keep it for tomorrow?
    Me: Hmm...yeah you can do that.
    Y: Well I might not be here tomorrow morning
    Me: Hmm...maybe it's better to leave it if you're not going to be around
    Y: But I really need it...I get dry skin.
    Me: Huh. Hmm.. (I'm thinking about whether I need it, when is the last time I used it, blah blah)
    Y: Why are you doing that! You're just being so wishy washy...ugh..just tell me what you want.
    Me: What? I was thinking aloud. You don't want to hear my deepest, innermost thoughts? (I'm joking)
    Y: This isn't even thinking aloud, it's just...wishy washy! Just tell me what you want.
    Me: *thinks about about a minute more* Keep it.

    Day of the wedding, bf puts my keys on the table and says "Meet us at the place at ___ time." I say okay, still caught up in preparations. I look for my keys about 30 minutes before it's time to go and can't find them. I look everyone for them. I tell people "I can't find my keys...I'm supposed to be driving people. Anyone know where they are?" No one knew.
    I go upstairs and Y is getting ready. "Have you seen my keys? I can't find them anymore. Bf put them on ___ table and they're not there anymore."
    Y: No I haven't seen them.
    I start looking upstairs. 5 minutes later Y says "I'm running late...god we're gonna be 10 minutes late, because of me."
    Me: So we arrive a few minutes late. Take your time. We get there when we get there. They usually plan for a buffer of 20ish minutes at these things.
    Y: So you're telling me everything will be fine?
    Me: Well...things tend to work out. Just do what you gotta do.

    I'm still scrambling, looking for my keys 5 minutes before we have to leave. She asks me "what are you doing?"
    Me: Still looking for those keys! I don't understand where they could have gone. Ugh, this is bad. Maybe we need to call a taxi.
    Her: I thought you told me everything is going to be okay.
    Me: Guess I'm a hypocrite. (I laughed, I was nervous, but I figured it was a playful shot at me)
    Everyone I was driving was informed that was searching for my keys prior to this. After the last conversation, I went downstairs and said I could not find them anywhere. I'm really, really sorry and will pay for a cab for everyone.

    Y wound up finding someone else's keys and took us in their car. On the way there, she calls up a friend on her phone and talks about what happened. "Yeah she couldn't find her keys anywhere...who knows what would have happened if I wasn't around. Can't believe she lost her keys....yeah I know who does that?"

    We get to the venue and it's wedding time. They planned it so there was over 45 minutes buffer, so we're there with more than enough time to spare. After the wedding, they have a photo shoot. Me and another relative's boyfriend hang out, talking (photographer doesn't want us in there, makes sense). Part way through the photo shoot, more relatives join us (about a circle of 6 people now) and we're all talking. Few more minutes and another 3 people come along, including Y. We're standing, talking for about 10 minutes. Then Y steps directly in front of me and the circle closes. I didn't see a entry point to get back in. I sporadically talked to those who were next to me, but it's pretty hard when there's a circle in place and you're outside of it.

    After the reception, everyone goes back "home". I tell everyone I can't find my keys. At least 10 people start combing through the entire house, looking for them with me. This transpires for at least 30 minutes and they tell me "I just don't see them..I'm so sorry. I'll keep looking though". I go upstairs to the room. Y asks me what is going on down there. I said I am looking for my keys. She goes "Whatever....it's not a big deal. Why do you need them so bad anyway?"
    I said "I have to leave in one day...and I may need to transport people. I need to find these keys as soon as possible."
    She rolled her eyes at me and said "Well it's not a big deal okay?" Her tone seemed direct and defensive.
    I said "I'd rather find them sooner than later."
    Y: Fine....I'll look for them.
    Goes downstairs, comes back up with them immediately.
    Y: Oh...there were on the counter in the kitchen behind a box...that's probably why nobody found them.
    There were 10 people looking for it. One of the main places they looked was in the kitchen. By looking, I meant EVERYTHING was removed from the counters and all boxes were also searched (I did this as well).
    I'm confused, but thank her for finding them and putting my mind at ease. She still seems to be in a bad mood. I run into bf 10 minutes later and tell him what happened.
    Bf: .....She had the keys this whole time.
    Me: Huh...that's interesting. Maybe.
    Bf: I wouldn't put it past her. And now she doesn't want anyone to know it's her fault, especially because she talked to her friend about you while you were right there (and another relative was there too).

    At this point, it was just awkward and nerve-wracking. These are the majority of the interactions that happened. There were other smaller ones where I felt hostility.

    We wound up driving her home (she was a 3 hours away from our location and wouldn't involve going out of our way). We committed to this before "lotion" conversation happened. During the conversation, bf brings up Socionics. Y seems interested so we talk to her about Socionics for the rest of the way. Went well, no more hostility.

    What I did about it
    Pretty much nothing. I wound up weeping instead and feeling completely helpless. Clearly not constructive and something I'd like to avoid in the future.

    TL;DR
    Went to cousin's wedding with bf. Bf's sister Y reached out to me at first. It seemed pleasant. I was uncomfortable with the personal questions, but went along with it anyway. I had to transport Y and one other person to the wedding later that day. I lost the keys. I apologized to everyone. Y found us a ride. Y talked about how things could have gone poorly if she hadn't found us a ride. At the wedding venue, Y physically stands in front of me while I am talking to other relatives in a circle. Later on, Y finds the keys, but it seems more likely than not that Y is the person who took them in the first place (who knows intentionally or not, but I doubt it). We drive her home (3 hours with her in the car) and talk about Socionics. Everything goes well.


    Why I think the above are ESIs:

    Strong interpersonal skills. Good at connecting with people they want to connect with. Quieter, talks to one or two people instead of many at once. Strong Se skills (ability to defend/assert themselves and their interests). Se over Si, because more comfortable applying direct pressure on people around them and straightforward in general. I would think most Si egos (esp ISxp) are more like "immovable object" when they want to stand their ground. Devalued Fe, because not bubbly/emotionally expressive themselves and do not seem to enjoy the presence of bubbly people (from what I observed of X and Y and what Y told me). Also there seem to be "strong, persisting" initial judgments of situations that I associate with Ixxj more than other types.
    And of course....vibes.


    Type wise, I understand if people doubt me. I'm pretty new to this forum. From what I understand of Enneagram, IEI and type 6 would be perfectly possible. I'd rather avoid discussion of my type in this thread and keep to OP instead.

    Why I care now:
    • I have a supervisor at work that reminds me of the same qualities, but not nearly as "bullying" (I like the word Amber used. "Challenging".). She's pretty snappy when she's annoyed in any way and I'm not sure how to improve our communication. I don't want this person to walk all over me, but I'm not sure how to go about asserting myself without coming off hostile instead (typical problem in the past). This person and I will be working together closely for at least 2 more years.
    • I will run into bf's sister again. I'd rather not avoid his family events, because I don't want to know how to interact with her. That puts bf in a bad spot.
    • Bf gets along well with ESIs. If I could get along better, we could hang out around people like the above more (speaking more of Y). As of right now, I feel helpless around that kind of "testing" and have no idea how I'm supposed to "pass the exam".
    • I care about improving myself in general. I also care about NOT feeling helpless and want to cultivate that more in my life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    I did see IEIs trying to justify their own difficulties in settling things and marking boundaries with ppl as "I'm being bullied."...when the other was just challenging them to test them or stuff.

    I would agree with that for myself. I really like the way you put the second part. Do you have any insight on how I can respond to that better?
    Last edited by Deer Woman; 05-08-2015 at 02:25 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hotel Transylvania View Post
    OP,is she jelly? r u getting attention from a guy she likes by being so vulnerable sth sth? such behaviours stem mostly from insecurity. does she feel confident enough to act like that because she feels safe in her herd? depending on what's (not) at stake, can u just avoid her altogether? what does she chastise u for?
    Might be jealous. Hard to say. I appreciate the advice though! I can avoid people like this altogether, but I would rather become better at these types of situations. It's a big blindspot for me. I went through examples in the post above.
    I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.

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    Crack that bitch in the jaw, yo.

    Get other friends, those friends suck.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If itís a disease, itís nobodyís fault. Yay empiricism.

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    yeah ... those chicks sound like bitches and they fuck the OP up on Se. Plus one is being jerkish by pressing undesirable Fe on her --- making fun with class mates, meanie comments and stuff (...still ...that's smth. anyone can do, even your dearest IEIs).

    Anyway the OP kinda contributed a bit ... You shouldn't have accepted her "taking your seat" and you shouldn't really have given away your lotion, coz that woman wasn't filthy poor, your close sister, or getting tons of wrinkles over night. What did you do that for.

    Didn't get to read everything (man_retypes OP IEE), but will get back to it soon. Not certain it's directly stemming from being ESI. SLE or LSI can do worse ..basically any Se ego ..... but if it's ESI ...the persons kinda don't like her basically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Crack that bitch in the jaw, yo.

    Get other friends, those friends suck.
    Smack that bitch in the back of the head

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    I'm not sure if talking about immature people in context of any sociotype should count. I mean, immature people are just immature people. I don't think a sociotype has anything to do there. You can't be even 100% sure if they're the sociotype you assumed they were. E.g. I really can't match behaviour you described with any ESI I know, even with those a bit "immature". Fi goes for a normal behaviour and rights and wrongs. Fi goes for people. Se fights for what Fi thinks is right. So, ESI can be a bit aggressive, shouting and swearing but it doesn't go beyond this.

    Maybe just look for some general tips on coping with idiots

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    Anyway the OP kinda contributed a bit ... You shouldn't have accepted her "taking your seat" and you shouldn't really have given away your lotion, coz that woman wasn't filthy poor, your close sister, or getting tons of wrinkles over night. What did you do that for.
    Yeah. Hard to admit that I am part of the reason things went the way they did, but yeah.
    Not trying to be difficult, but if "other person cares > I care" about something and it's a large discrepancy, why would I refuse? Is it better to set some kind of arbitrary boundaries to prevent these types of situations happening? I'm having trouble estimating how often this type of person "exists" in the first place, because I feel like I'm running into "them" more and more.

    Situation-specific:
    Seat: I didn't care. I wasn't attached to the person. Sometimes I've felt a connection with another person (a strong draw, inexplicable) and want to get to know them better. If someone else is interested in connecting with someone I am neutral to, I'd rather they have a chance to talk. Who knows? Might be what they are both looking for.

    Lotion: It was a half-empty travel size bottle I bought for almost nothing at a drug store. I was hoping to use it up in the next trip or two so I could throw it out and have less clutter overall. By the time, she asked me for it, I had probably $1 worth remaining. Figured this was a great way to get rid of it and also give to someone else who expressed an immediate need for it. She's also cares about her appearance in photos and was wearing an outfit that showed off her legs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    Didn't get to read everything (man_retypes OP IEE), but will get back to it soon.
    Haha yeah. I put down as much information as I possibly could for objectivity's sake. I appreciate all of the time you and everyone else has spent on this so far. If it helps, I'm narrowing my situation down to "boundary setting in the moment".
    a) Knowing an important line as been crossed
    b) Knowing it at the time it happens
    c) Re-establishing the boundary then and there

    I've frequently had trouble with b), sometimes not even realizing I am angry or "feel violated" until days later. By that time, it becomes much more difficult to assert and make it clear, especially with people who seek to run over others and have trouble understanding the above. It just looks like I'm "stirring up old shit."
    I have experience with a) and c). I still don't do it as well as some people, but I consider myself decent at it.

    Edit:
    Found the answer I needed. See OP if interested. This may look inconsistent with my above answers.
    Basically the first thing I noticed was that I was slightly pissed. Then after that moment passed (very short), the other thoughts popped into my mind. Because I didn't know if I was angry at the person or something else, I would ignore it and proceed with my other evaluation instead.
    Last edited by Deer Woman; 05-09-2015 at 04:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alklonth View Post
    I'm not sure if talking about immature people in context of any sociotype should count. I mean, immature people are just immature people. I don't think a sociotype has anything to do there. You can't be even 100% sure if they're the sociotype you assumed they were. E.g. I really can't match behaviour you described with any ESI I know, even with those a bit "immature". Fi goes for a normal behaviour and rights and wrongs. Fi goes for people. Se fights for what Fi thinks is right. So, ESI can be a bit aggressive, shouting and swearing but it doesn't go beyond this.

    Maybe just look for some general tips on coping with idiots
    Fi doesn't necessarily go "for people" ...sometimes it can go for an idea (what people should be like) and devalue people in flesh and blood who don't fit in for the same reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Point out that she's blocking you from the group and tell her you've noticed she is being a huge bitch to you while the situation is occurring (as she might deny it later- I've noticed a trend in many ESIs that they like to play dumb to get away with things...it's incredibly disturbing).
    Make sure to be very specific about her words and actions.
    No way I thought I was the only one who did that. Playing naive ....

    Good to know now I can excuse this behaviour with socionics.

    Crazy though for real I noticed this about myself years and years ago and yet still do it. Thought I was the only one.

    Bad news bears.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    oh wow, this thread reminds me of a neurotic ESI i used to be friends with. over time i realized she was a toxic, controlling, nasty person and i had to cut off relations with her. it was a build up of things over a few years that led me to do so. she always did the thing mentioned in this thread, where she'd pretend nothing was wrong; this happened many, many times. i generally went along with it because i still considered her my friend and did not want a confrontation with her. the final straw happened when she made clear that she had zero respect for me in a situation where i was in charge. i could tell she had no respect for my leadership style (i'm pretty laid back and not demanding), and loathed having to do what i said. (btw i do think it is written somewhere that it is a huge strain on Benefit relations if the Beneficiary is in charge of the Benefactor.) after half-assing her way through things over the year (probably her way of showing she didn't care what i said), and eventually dropping out of the project at the last minute with a curt, extremely rude email to me, i knew i had to cut her off. i started ignoring her IRL, but every time she saw me she still said "hello!!" with a smile like nothing was wrong. eventually i blocked her on social media, when she would like/comment on most of my stuff, even months afterward of me ignoring her (creepy). a couple months ago, i ended up at a dinner table with her and a couple of mutual friends, and she kept trying to talk to me. i'd give her one-word answers and never looked her in the eye. i know i made the dinner awkward by doing this, but damn i think she got the point toward the end, because she got quiet and stopped trying. ughh

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    No way I thought I was the only one who did that. Playing naive ....

    Good to know now I can excuse this behaviour with socionics.

    Crazy though for real I noticed this about myself years and years ago and yet still do it. Thought I was the only one.

    Bad news bears.
    Any type does this. Just noticed a trend.. And yes..... I noticed you did it as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    Any type does this. Just noticed a trend.. And yes..... I noticed you did it as well.
    Yes, thank-you for pointing this out.

    And anyway no one is perfect, I do not pretend to be.


    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deer Woman View Post
    [X from school]

    Next class I came in 5 minutes later (very close to class start). I saw she is sitting where I was sitting.
    Her: Sorry I stole your seat. I hope that's okay!
    Me: No worries. (I really don't care. It's a seat.)
    At the end of the class, I said goodbye, she looked at me, didn't say anything and walked out.

    Class after that
    Her: Oh look...I'm in your seat...again.
    Me: Umm okay. (kind of weirded out)
    Then her and the person on her right turn to each other and start laughing.
    that's interesting Mystery was doing the very same seat stealing gig in one of his presentations (i had him down as ESI)
    it's approx @25+ mins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWfSf1SMGi4

    Quote Originally Posted by Deer Woman View Post
    Might be jealous. Hard to say. I appreciate the advice though! I can avoid people like this altogether, but I would rather become better at these types of situations. It's a big blindspot for me. I went through examples in the post above.
    honestly I couldn't much relate to the examples above in my interactions with ESIs (sans the stealing someone's place thing). I've had surprisingly few bad run-ins with them (or maybe it's that I felt the bad ones a mile away and cut them off before they took it any further).
    This is kind of a general evaluation: After reading through these three stories an impression came up that there is a kind of personal emotional unawareness even indifference that accompanies you in these situations. It is muting your own personal voice such that you don't let others know what's not ok by you, how exactly they are being cunty, and draw the line for them. And that if you would become better at this then these types of situations would be easier to handle. If there is anything typology related here this would be the issues (blindspot) of the sp/so stacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    After reading through these three stories an impression came up that there is a kind of personal emotional unawareness even indifference that accompanies you in these situations. It is muting your own personal voice such that you don't let others know what's not ok by you, how exactly they are being cunty, and draw the line for them. And that if you would become better at this then these types of situations would be easier to handle.
    Any advice for the above?
    I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.

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    My neice seems to be ESI. I have to read this thread carefully because though she's little when she gets upset she throws things and slaps people. I gotta learn about how Fi is working in her so I can communicate to her in a way to get her to feel better and express her feelings in a healthy way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    My neice seems to be ESI. I have to read this thread carefully because though she's little when she gets upset she throws things and slaps people. I gotta learn about how Fi is working in her so I can communicate to her in a way to get her to feel better and express her feelings in a healthy way
    Are her parents not trying to stop that behaviour? How old is she? It's not alright to let young ones slap people. I could see that as a phase still if its going on longer then a phase then your brother or sister need to enforce better parenting.

    You need to get Joe the super nanny in there.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

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    How about acting gamma?

    Caught by surprise may start respecting you within the confusion before you run out of energies.

    ILI might be the closest to mimicry.


    • Dissociate your mind a bit
    • No staring at the eyes
    • No sincere smile
    • Speak as if you were reading her the news
    • Use sarcasm
    • Ignore the value of company
    Balzac

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koneko View Post
    How about acting gamma?

    Caught by surprise may start respecting you within the confusion before you run out of energies.

    ILI might be the closest to mimicry.


    • Dissociate your mind a bit
    • No staring at the eyes
    • No sincere smile
    • Speak as if you were reading her the news
    • Use sarcasm
    • Ignore the value of company
    That's....really amazing advice. Thanks!
    I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wacey View Post
    Are her parents not trying to stop that behaviour? How old is she? It's not alright to let young ones slap people. I could see that as a phase still if its going on longer then a phase then your brother or sister need to enforce better parenting.

    You need to get Joe the super nanny in there.
    She's two years old

    I recommended baby sign language and we'll see how that goes
    She gets emotional at odd moments and doesn't know how to get over it unlike her brother who shifted emotions quickly. She goes into a tantrum. She's perfectly calm around me but my sister's Fe makes her explode

    Quote Originally Posted by Koneko View Post
    How about acting gamma?

    Caught by surprise may start respecting you within the confusion before you run out of energies.

    ILI might be the closest to mimicry.


    • Dissociate your mind a bit
    • No staring at the eyes
    • No sincere smile
    • Speak as if you were reading her the news
    • Use sarcasm
    • Ignore the value of company
    This describes both my ESI and SEE cousins

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