Si vulnerable / painful PoLR function of ENTjs and ENFjs

[XoX]

Let's go on with the PoLR series. This seems to help people with typing.

[FDG]

No matter how many people tell me that I look good, I'm still unsure that I look good from the eyes of other people. It's not something I give A LOT of thought about, but I definitely have this little issue.

[Joy]

Si PoLR = Shallowness.

[FDG]

Because we work out?

[Joy]

Because of a preoccupation with Se.

[XoX]

Because of a preoccupation with Se.

Interesting point of view. I suffer from this especially when younger. I have it "under control now" but still too many days without "preoccupying" (wuteva) my Se makes me a mental vegetable or something. I lose my will to live. Sort of I don't have to stretch my Se every day though.

[XoX]

i think POLR could also be poor sleeping habits, not eating right, etc. they can easily fall into these patterns of habit.

Ouch. Jab, hook, straight...my PoLR is down. Add there tendency to neglect health issues like when younger doing sports with cold/fever by taking some pills to put the fever temporarily down, training extended periods of time with too big weights and getting all kinds of muscle and joint hurts and problems but not caring too much, capability to keep pulse over 190 per minute for pretty long (when young, now too scared to even try), capability to work amazing hours when properly motivated (done 24 hour "shifts" and stuff like that), capability to play computer games amazing amount of time without eating or sleeping (when young I did 48 hours without sleep and with only short toilet and eating breaks, then stopped not because of exhaustion but because it started to feel a bit strange or something...)

That kind of stuff. Now I'm pretty old and stable compared to those young days. Mostly sleeping habits are problematic anymore. I learned too many lessons as a teenager and young adult...and marriage has been a good stabilizer

And yes certain amount of insecurity about looks especially when younger. Not that much anymore though I guess still a bit. My wife's strong Si is a good support tool. I'm not too sensitive about taking good advice on looks issues but pure criticism is annoying.

[FDG]

i think POLR could also be poor sleeping habits, not eating right, etc. they can easily fall into these patterns of habit.

The opposite is valid for me. I have stricter sleeping and eating habits than a lot of people I know. Mostly because not sleeping well and not eating well compromises my functionality during the day. However, I have done numeros times - and still do, with pleasure - the things described by XoX, as overtraining for the sake of overtraining, going out with a shirt when it's 5 C to play, etc.

[FDG]

Because of a preoccupation with Se.

Yeah Se = shallow.

Nice trial. NEXT!

[Kristiina]

PoLR has somewhat confused me as well.
I have had problems with insomnia since early teenage, but I thought it was because of my , which I can't really stop.
I'm not very confident about what I wear or how I look, but I thought it was because of my weak / .

And I always associated my "The Princess and the Pea"-syndrome with PoLR. I'm bothered by the coarse structure of the older sheets, the bumpy pillow, hard bed, etc. I'm quite sensitive to being uncomfortable. Also, I'm sensitive to unpleasant colors all around me, strong smells, bad light... And I'm high maintenance, because I can't handle the "wrong" texture of cheap food and I almost never eat anything that has expired or which looks or smells even a little bit different from fresh food.

[Kristiina]

Or is this my hidden agenda? (That I need to be comfortable.)

[Expat]

No, what you described is indeed PoLR, but that is the way it's manifested for ENFjs rather than ENTjs. In ENTj's the PoLR is more about not caring about such things.

[XoX]

i think POLR could also be poor sleeping habits, not eating right, etc. they can easily fall into these patterns of habit.

The opposite is valid for me. I have stricter sleeping and eating habits than a lot of people I know. Mostly because not sleeping well and not eating well compromises my functionality during the day.

It is the Te that keeps your PoLR from taking control I say consequences schmonsequences

[Kristiina]

Mhh... Could my PoLR be similar to that of the ENFjs because my Te is not that strong? PS! still a lot stronger than Fe. And I'm still very different from ENFj.
Or is it because of the company I keep? I was basically forced to get along with my ENFj sister. I shared a room with her until I was 18. And now we live in the same apartment. There was no escape at first, but then we kinda grew together.

basically, yeah, and you beat me to what i was just about to say. i have watched my dad do some very polr things that would nearly make you think he's ISTj (steely almost in this aspect, he'll eat anything.)

Remember my ISTj phase? :wink: But I wasn't nearly as ISTj as the ones I know IRL, so I gave up on that idea.
I'll eat anything fresh. Frog in a Chinese restaurant somewhere in France was yummy!

[Kristiina]

I'm reviving it for a moment...

Erkki totally surprised me. He had been reading about the functions and came up with a theory about PoLR.
is how you feel in your body. Therefore it is also how you perceive yourself. Therefore, the worst insult that could be directed to someone with an PoLR, is when you target her self-perception. If you state something that is the opposite of how she perceives herself, then you attack her PoLR.
eg. I don't consider myself either fat or ugly. I feel cute. So if someone says that I'm either one of those things, I will feel really bad, because then I might have perceived myself falsely.

That is why I am bothered with the "you can't be ENTj"-thing. And I need to find the answer. It's not because I need to know the truth about everything or I want to be sure at all times. I just need to know if my self-perception is false or not.


EDIT: It really makes sense. People with Ni in Ego block don't REALLY exist. They imagine themselves in this world. They don't really have a body, in stead they imagine a body in the world that also barely exists. That is why we don't notice our surroundings that well. (Can't explain it any better). So if you tell them that they have imagined the key player the wrong way, it feels like the Matrix scenario. It makes me give the feeling, "is nothing real anymore, do I even know ANYTHING about the world, anything about anything?..." And it shuts me up. It feels like PoLR probably should feel.

[Ms. Kensington]

Is this an example of Si polr?

I got sick this weekend and I was at my breaking point, waiting for some people with my dad, who is ENTj. I was burning up and needed some water, but I saw that he was just chatting with someone outside while I was resting in the car. I waved him over and said tensely that I needed something to happen-- either to have the rest of our party summoned so that we could leave or for him to buy me some water, because I was very uncomfortable. There are very few times that I have seen my dad fall silent and this is one of them. I know I had affected him in some way.

I thought it was odd too because after falling silent he did not rush to get water, he walked very slowly. I know that when I have my Se polr hit I don't rush either but tend to feel depressed or subdued.

Is this an example of an Si polr being hit?

[Expat]

Si PoLR might have to do with his not noticing that you were uncomfortable - is that what you mean?

[Ms. Kensington]

Si PoLR might have to do with his not noticing that you were uncomfortable - is that what you mean?

yes, and i was irritated and tense in speech, like "can't you see this is what i need?"

[Expat]

Ah, then Si PoLR, Fe role and Fi super-id, all of it.

One of the most baffling things for ENTjs is the expectation that we should take hints of this sort, and be criticized for not taking them. We-do-not-take-hints. If you express your needs and wishes clearly, if they are genuine, you get everything.

[implied]

i think so. in my case (just weak Si, i guess, maybe not a polr,) an ex-roommate of mine got sick and i had no idea. he got really pissed at me about it and i honestly had no idea what to say, felt like a gigantic bitch. i also have seriously never been able to tell when people are on drugs or whatever. like you could walk in completely high or coked out or some such thing and i wouldn't notice.


this is partially why i'm not so interested in being in the medical field or in law enforcement.


i think this is why my mom suggested i could be ENTj when i read her all the descriptions. honestly i think i would prefer someone who just says straight up what they need. if you say you're sick and feel like hell, though, i will certainly try to oblige?

[Slacker]

My parents both have Si PoLR (ENTj mom and ENFj dad), and when we got sick when we were kids, we ALWAYS went to my grandma's house (INFj) until we got better. My mom was not very good at that kind of thing. She was very good at some things - but taking care of sick kids wasn't one of them. She couldn't tell when we got sick, she didn't know what to do for us when we were sick, she didn't really tend to us much when we were sick. Sickness just wasn't her thing. I don't blame her for her weakness, in fact I give her great credit for recognizing it and making other arrangements. And there are some areas, like helping with schoolwork and teaching us things, where she really rocked as a mom. So this is not a "bitching about mom" post.

As for my dad, I remember once when my brother fell and hurt his arm and said that it hurt too much for him to go mow the lawn. My dad didn't believe he had really hurt his arm that badly, and thought he was trying to get out of it and made him mow the lawn despite bruising and swelling. My brother was unable to finish mowing the lawn and my dad yelled at him for it, and I ended up mowing the lawn because it looked pretty obvious to me that my brother really hurt. He didn't take my brother in to the doctor to have his arm looked at till the next day, when it had swelled to an extraordinary size. It turned out his arm was pretty seriously broken and he was in a cast down his whole arm and around his shoulder. My dad felt really really bad about it - he really truly couldn't judge how bad my brother felt and my brother had tried to get out of mowing the lawn so many times and in so many different ways he assumed that's what was happening.

I think a good example of an Si PoLR is in the movie Angles in America. It's about this guy who has AIDS, and his partner can NOT handle being around him when he's sick so he jumps ship. He seemed very ENTj to me.

[Expat]

Your ISFj brother used tricks in order not to mow the lawn? That doesn't sound right.

[Slacker]

Your ISFj brother used tricks in order not to mow the lawn? That doesn't sound right.

Name one 13-year-old kid who wouldn't use tricks to get out of mowing the lawn?

[Expat]

Point taken.

[Slacker]

My brother wasn't *too* bad about it, but my dad would nag all the time about the lawn. He'd make these stupid jokes all the time, like, "Do you hear that? That's the sound of the grass growing!" Over and over again. I don't think my brother would have tried to avoid it so much if my dad wasn't always after him about it. And critiquing his lawn mowing skills every time he mowed too. I mowed briefly but my dad and I would constantly fight over it so I stopped.

[mm]

I witnessed this conversation during lunch between my brother and my father who both have Si PoLR I think. The background is we've all been working heavily in the garden yesterday using all kinds of machinery and so today we're all a bit tired, but lots of work remains to be done:

Dad (LIE): So, will you help out this afternoon?
K (EIE): Uh, my hands are still shaking and they hurt.

minutes pass and when everyone has finished eating:

Dad: Ok, let's not waste too much time.
K: I'm not going!!
Dad: I had asked you that, but you didn't answer!! You came up with some silly story!!

The Si PoLR is perhaps more obvious in my brother, since he's resorting to Se to make it very clear he's not physically feeling well.

The way my dad responded I think is also Si PoLR, but it's an aspect of Si I haven't seen mentioned yet, namely "dealing with unexpected situations". My brother giving up came unexpected and so he resorted to Se to deal with it. This is something very common with my dad. If things don't go as planned, usually in his own mind (the plan is never communicated), he becomes agitated, stressed and restless. Like when we're all ready to start working, but then the generator fails. My grandfather (LSE I think) stayed calm and simply suggested going to a nearby garage. The same happens when we're leaving for a holiday or something. His checklist does not contain a bullet for doing it all in a calm and relaxed manner...

Sigh, personally I don't really like this kind of Se-out-of-frustration.

Anyway, so are these examples of Si PoLR?

[mm]

Hmm, not making much sense? When people would have to use their PoLR they instead tend to use their HA, right? I think both my dad and my brother resorted to confrontational Se where an Si type would handle it more elegantly. But whatever, it's not that important.

[force my hand]

Whether it is or not, I understand clearly the mechanism you're talking about. Disregarding socionics, some people are better able to recognize that things will often go wrong and will simply have a better time of dealing with the ebb and flow of life when they do. I chalk it up to pragmatism, personally - getting worked up over chance is not likely to solve the problem.

[BLauritson]

I'll admit I'm pretty poor at recognising functional usage, but based on what I do know, I'd imagine that having Si PoLR would mean that one would actually ignore (obviously not entirely, but in comparison with the other functions) the physical ailments in favour of getting something done. Also, valuing a function isn't the same as being strong in it - I'm Se-valuing yet I shy away from confrontation. Also, although Se is often associated with confrontation, it doesn't necessarily mean that Se-valuers or even Se-ego types will be confrontational - there could be various factors leading into it. I dunno, those are just my thoughts. Do with them as you will.

[Ezra]

I think people like Ashton don't really grasp this, which is why he mistypes Expat. Si PoLR doesn't mean the individual is devoid of any kind of enjoyment of sensory pleasures. It simply means the individual is far less adept than, say, an SLI or ESE at accurately being able to recognise their internal sensations in how said sensations relate to their environment i.e. how certain pleasures make them feel. Essentially, Si PoLR individuals have a really hard time focusing on these things to reap maximum benefit from them, unlike a Si base individual, who knows exactly what makes them feel good and bad, and how they can derive the most pleasurable sensations from a given activity, while avoiding the msot painful.

Can anyone else add anything?

[Joy]

I think people like Ashton don't really grasp this, which is why he mistypes Expat. Si PoLR doesn't mean the individual is devoid of any kind of enjoyment of sensory pleasures. It simply means the individual is far less adept than, say, an SLI or ESE at accurately being able to recognise their internal sensations in how said sensations relate to their environment i.e. how certain pleasures make them feel. Essentially, Si PoLR individuals have a really hard time focusing on these things to reap maximum benefit from them, unlike a Si base individual, who knows exactly what makes them feel good and bad, and how they can derive the most pleasurable sensations from a given activity, while avoiding the msot painful.

Can anyone else add anything?

I'd like to add that most of what I've said in the past is true primarily of LIE's that have been caught in a downward spiral related to their PoLR. PoLR's really aren't that bad if you're pretty happy and healthy, overall.

That said, I agree with what you've said, largely. I mean, we still know what foods we like and don't like, but if a doctor asks questions like "do you get headaches" it's difficult to give an answer you're happy with. "Sometimes. I mean, it's not like some people I've known who get really bad headaches every week or whatever. But maybe ever other month or so I'll get one. It's usually not too bad though. I only get really bad headaches a few times a year, and even those headaches aren't like, the kind that make you throw up or anything like that. I do have a hard time with bright lights when that happens though. But like I said, that only happens a few times a year. I've wondered in the past if it could be related to the changing seasons? (etc.)..."

Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but even answering questions like "how much does it hurt on a scale of 1 to 10" can be sort of difficult to answer, compared to types with strong Si.

The most apparent aspect of the PoLR is, imo, the general lack of attention to it. Like, someone with a Si PoLR may wear clothes that are a little bit wrinkly or worn out, or they may wear the same style of clothes most of the time (like owning 5 similar light blue button down shirts), or they may wear clothes that match color-wise but not style-wise. They don't seem to notice that their surroundings are less than attractive as much as types with strong Si would.

[Ezra]

That said, I agree with what you've said, largely. I mean, we still know what foods we like and don't like, but if a doctor asks questions like "do you get headaches" it's difficult to give an answer you're happy with. "Sometimes. I mean, it's not like some people I've known who get really bad headaches every week or whatever. But maybe ever other month or so I'll get one. It's usually not too bad though. I only get really bad headaches a few times a year, and even those headaches aren't like, the kind that make you throw up or anything like that. I do have a hard time with bright lights when that happens though. But like I said, that only happens a few times a year. I've wondered in the past if it could be related to the changing seasons? (etc.)..."

Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but even answering questions like "how much does it hurt on a scale of 1 to 10" can be sort of difficult to answer, compared to types with strong Si.

In essence, you ramble because you have Si PoLR.

The most apparent aspect of the PoLR is, imo, the general lack of attention to it. Like, someone with a Si PoLR may wear clothes that are a little bit wrinkly or worn out, or they may wear the same style of clothes most of the time (like owning 5 similar light blue button down shirts), or they may wear clothes that match color-wise but not style-wise. They don't seem to notice that their surroundings are less than attractive as much as types with strong Si would.

Is this what we might term "Se" in MBTT?

[Joy]

In essence, you ramble because you have Si PoLR.

To me, there isn't a simply answer to the question because I'm just not sure. I mean, everyone gets headaches sometimes, so what is she trying to ask? Do you often get headaches? Do you get bad headaches? Often and bad are relative terms anyways, so even if I knew it would still be difficult to answer.

Is this what we might term "Se" in MBTT?

I don't know enough about MBTT to answer that question.

[strrrng]

I think people like Ashton don't really grasp this, which is why he mistypes Expat. Si PoLR doesn't mean the individual is devoid of any kind of enjoyment of sensory pleasures. It simply means the individual is far less adept than, say, an SLI or ESE at accurately being able to recognise their internal sensations in how said sensations relate to their environment i.e. how certain pleasures make them feel. Essentially, Si PoLR individuals have a really hard time focusing on these things to reap maximum benefit from them, unlike a Si base individual, who knows exactly what makes them feel good and bad, and how they can derive the most pleasurable sensations from a given activity, while avoiding the msot painful.

Can anyone else add anything?

Ashton is one of the few people who actually understands what Si really is, which is evinced through his posts at socionix. Having Si polr does not mean you are an absent-minded, physically-futile person who doesn't know when they're hungry and dresses like shit. The correlation between Si and health is one of the most prevalent misconceptions in the socionics community. Si is not health; it is the external dynamics of fields, which translates as a desire to have a continuous physical flow, a harmony with one's physical surroundings (as opposed to Se, which is akin to hopping from point to point, maximizing the intensity of each). Ezra, the bolded part of your description is accurate, but it doesn't capture the essence. The second part is not accurate. Anyone can enjoy aesthetics, health, etc.; it's about how one enjoys them. Si is my role and I am in very good shape, very physically coordinated, know how to manage my body, etc.

[strrrng]

That said, I agree with what you've said, largely. I mean, we still know what foods we like and don't like, but if a doctor asks questions like "do you get headaches" it's difficult to give an answer you're happy with. "Sometimes. I mean, it's not like some people I've known who get really bad headaches every week or whatever. But maybe ever other month or so I'll get one. It's usually not too bad though. I only get really bad headaches a few times a year, and even those headaches aren't like, the kind that make you throw up or anything like that. I do have a hard time with bright lights when that happens though. But like I said, that only happens a few times a year. I've wondered in the past if it could be related to the changing seasons? (etc.)..."

Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration, but even answering questions like "how much does it hurt on a scale of 1 to 10" can be sort of difficult to answer, compared to types with strong Si.

The most apparent aspect of the PoLR is, imo, the general lack of attention to it. Like, someone with a Si PoLR may wear clothes that are a little bit wrinkly or worn out, or they may wear the same style of clothes most of the time (like owning 5 similar light blue button down shirts), or they may wear clothes that match color-wise but not style-wise. They don't seem to notice that their surroundings are less than attractive as much as types with strong Si would.

you've only demonstrated how you're not ENTj. This is not Si polr. I am Si role, which isn't that far off from polr, and I could answer any of those medical questions with ease. You're making it seem that Si polr people are incapable of managing or understanding internal sensations. That last paragraph is just an example of the utter lack of understanding of the essence of Si that most people have...wearing wrinkly clothes...give me a fucking break

[Joy]

Having Si polr does not mean you are an absent-minded, physically-futile person who doesn't know when they're hungry and dresses like shit.

Depends on the person and where they're at, but I agree that no healthy person has these problems.

The correlation between Si and health is one of the most prevalent misconceptions in the socionics community. Si is not health; it is the external dynamics of fields, which translates as a desire to have a continuous physical flow, a harmony with one's physical surroundings... Ezra, the bolded part of your description is accurate, but it doesn't capture the essence. The second part is not accurate. Anyone can enjoy aesthetics, health, etc.

Obviously.

There's also something to Si that most people don't seem to understand which causes Si types to have a mechanical aptitude.

Si is my role and I am in very good shape, very physically coordinated, know how to manage my body, etc.

The role and PoLR are different though. We generally give much more attention to our role than we do our PoLR. Our duals actually tell us when we're giving it too much attention.

[Creepy-bg]

The most apparent aspect of the PoLR is, imo, the general lack of attention to it. Like, someone with a Si PoLR may wear clothes that are a little bit wrinkly or worn out, or they may wear the same style of clothes most of the time (like owning 5 similar light blue button down shirts), or they may wear clothes that match color-wise but not style-wise. They don't seem to notice that their surroundings are less than attractive as much as types with strong Si would.

???

I do all these things...

you and Ezra shouldn't be allowed to respond to eachother... it creates a bullshit feedback loop.

[strrrng]

There's also something to Si that most people don't seem to understand which causes Si types to have a mechanical aptitude.

I would say that is simply a general manifestation that sometimes occurs, not an intrinsic trait.

The role and PoLR are different though. We generally give much more attention to our role than we do our PoLR. Our duals actually tell us when we're giving it too much attention.

I only used the word role because some word was necessary. The concept of a "role" function that one tries to appear "good" at is...dumb. One does not care to give much attention to unvalued functions.

[Joy]

???

I do all these things...

What you do isn't as important as why (and to some extent) how you do it.

you and Ezra shouldn't be allowed to respond to eachother... it creates a bullshit feedback loop.

Your feeling this way about our interactions could be further indication that Ezra's a Te/Fi > Ti/Fe type.

I would say that is simply a general manifestation that sometimes occurs, not an intrinsic trait.

I'm not going to try to say that all Si types would make good mechanics. Some make good doctors instead. (The inner workings of the human body aren't all that different than the inner workings of an engine.)

One gear turning another is an example of external dynamics of fields.

I only used the word role because some word was necessary. The concept of a "role" function that one tries to appear "good" at is...dumb. One does not care to give much attention to unvalued functions.

I see it as something you do as an extension of your 1st function and as compensation for your 5th function.

You can tell which it is because if it's as an extension of your 1st function it feels good and reasonable and makes sense, but if it's out of compensation for weaknesses related to your 5th function you feel like shit, like it's an obligation that you resent.

[Creepy-bg]

Your feeling this way about our interactions could be further indication that Ezra's a Te/Fi > Ti/Fe type.

or it could be further indication that you're both talking out your asses