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    strangeling's Avatar
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    Awhile ago I read about a guy that was developing Alzheimers. He decided to kill himself before it got bad. He made a website and everything, detailing his decision. It's probably online if you look for it.

    But I think I agree with him. If I was pretty certain I was going to end up unable to care for myself and wouldn't be able to change that, I think I would want to kill myself before that happened as well. I wonder if it would be humane to assist someone in suicide if they can make a sound case for it?

    There might be thread on this, I don't know.

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    Herion. It IS the way I'm going to die (I think) ...

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    I guess as long as it's painless, that would work pretty well.

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    I can think of a lot of scenarios where I would probably choose suicide over suffering, especially if I were terminally ill.

    I'm sure a lot of you have heard about Brittany Maynard's dying with dignity movment.

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    I think suicide/death assistance programs are a good service to have available to those who choose it. To be able to plan the time and place and who is there can ease the loss, and reduce later regrets/guilt from those who were at work or asleep, or eating when their loved ones passed away in a hospital room/etc. To have the chance to say "i love you, goodbye", and know that your message was heard AND understood, is significant. Not to mention saving the loved ones the costs of extended hospital visits, medication costs, and time/energy of caretaking.

    The past 8 years my quality of life had been reducing due to intense pain. I was spending over 75% of my days bedridden. I figured I'd have maybe 10 more years before I'd be ready to call it quits. (Thankfully I got to switch Drs to one who took my pain seriously and has been working with me to improve my health/functioning.) My quality of life has greatly improved, but prior I was trying to figure out how to end it down the road without traumatizing my loved ones. Having an accepted assisted suicide option would have definitely eased the stress of that.
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    I would kill myself if I knew I had a truly debilitating medical condition that I knew would progressively get worse over time and there was nothing to do to stop it. I only want to live if I can have some shred of dignity. Having to depend on people for every little thing is no way to live.
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    The only time I've wanted to die is when I had insomnia and no food for a few days. Worst feeling ever. If I anticipating feeling like that for the rest of my life, I would probably just get a bunch of drugs and enjoy life in a haze. Not kill myself.

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    The leaving my family a traumatized wreck part would probably keep me from doing it if I had a debilitating disease. But who knows, you never really know how youll act in a situation until youre in it.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    I'd pretty much tell the doctor to shove the pill up his pooper.

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    regarding ppl who dont let others kill themselves, FUCK them. they deserve the worst of tortures. no one has any bizniz forcing anyone to stay on this earth or make it harder for ppl to stay here. multiple suicide methods should be available for anyone + assistance. I wont stick around if it doesnt serve my interests to do so. if ppl think that's "selfish" or sth like that, well, too bad for them, cuz I dont owe em anything.

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    My dad died of cancer and we knew he was going to die and it was so painful/dreadful to watch. I'm ambivalent on this issue because on one hand I do want people to have complete freedom over everything but at the same time, its kind of hypocritical to say that because you are trading one freedom for another... its babying people in a way. The process of observing natural death was horrible but it was supposed to be horrible, I think ironically it motivated me to take better care of myself and to NEVER smoke and to eat healthier.

    Idealistically we don't want to die, we want to improve life's conditions to live forever. Otherwise nothing means anything in this world, people wonder why religious people are such assholes- well they are encouraged to not care about this world and only think about heaven, which is an imaginary place. So people aren't ever responsible for what they do on this planet or the people to this planet, because everything will be fixed in heaven anyway.

    Now I view this stuff more as "Okay there is no sugar coated treat at the end of the meal. No glory... there is just complete obliteration. Knowing that, how can I avoid complete obliteration as long and as much as possible, to enjoy the world- make it better. True heroes don't accept the world as cruel and just leave it at that, they strive to make it better."

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    The republican christians are more bent on annihilation because they have faith in immortality but cannot believe in their own salvation, because of sin within their spirit which they hide and project; so they are stuck in the world, and they see the world falling apart around them. Then they feel their demise pressing in on them. So then they lash out at the democrats for their faulty work and the degrading world, they try to purge the world through aggression. On the other hand, the liberal christians try to make things better, according to their bias of what is better, but they don't build on a foundation which is lasting and universal, they just corrupt the earth... making it miserable for others. Their work falters... Time passes and humanity degrades, and degrades. Future generations inherit a more and more miserable life. We all die, everything is fruitless, the only reason to try seems to be for the pleasure of the moment. Still the next generation inherits the earth. But, it is a Christian teaching that this happens; that the earth is dying; and that Jesus brought a sword, and division; and that only a few ascend to inhabit eternal life. The body dies, but the spirit inhabits the body. Without a belief in the soul Christianity makes no sense, and it can never make sense; but to an outsider, this is how to make sense of it. Without God the resurrection is impossible, with God it is necessary. So it is a matter of belief in Jesus, and God, is all it reduces to. Now, if the holy spirit is be received into you, and you follow it with true obedience, it will lift you up through life, and you will come back to life. But I lump myself in with the self annihilating ones today. Two days from now is Sunday, so I don't know what will happen.
    Last edited by Ian Rust; 04-24-2015 at 04:23 PM.

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    Various thoughts on suicide:


    I've been at a level of pain where, if I thought it wouldn't get better, I'd have killed myself to make it stop. Chewing through my wrist to bleed to death would have hurt less. Fortunately, it got better.


    Death is inevitable, pointless suffering is not. I'm thinking of the doc in Saving Private Ryan who, when he found out the size of the exit wound, just instructed his buddies to give him what he knew would be a fatal dose of morphine.


    I doubt that I would want to kill myself just because I couldn't remember my name or the names of the people around me, where I was or what I was doing there. I've been there plenty of times and never wanted to kill myself. Maybe other people wanted to kill me, but I certainly didn't want to kill myself.


    The urge to stay alive at all costs runs pretty deep in living things. If it didn't, we wouldn't have lasted for four and a half billion years.


    People whose “only” problem is depression (by which I mean that all of their other problems are theoretically fixable) should be kept away from the means to suicide, or at least, they should be encouraged to forego the 9mm and instead use the more certain method of “old age”. The urge to suicide is said to pass quickly, even for those who go through with it. Not many people survive a jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, but some have, and they all said that, right after jumping, they regretted their decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zap View Post
    regarding ppl who dont let others kill themselves, FUCK them. they deserve the worst of tortures. no one has any bizniz forcing anyone to stay on this earth or make it harder for ppl to stay here. multiple suicide methods should be available for anyone + assistance. I wont stick around if it doesnt serve my interests to do so. if ppl think that's "selfish" or sth like that, well, too bad for them, cuz I dont owe em anything.
    This is a pretty interesting point. Society seems to have a lot of regulations to keep suicide methods out of reach of those that might want it. I can understand wanting to keep it away from someone that is just depressed, but then at the same time, if someone has been in a lot of emotional/physical pain for a majority of their life, they can't seem to change that, and maybe don't adapt well to living, why not let them decide to suicide? Certainly, we wouldn't want people to act out on suicide when they are emotionally vulnerable, but if someone can make a collected and rational case for it, can there be a certain point where it's okay to give someone the option?

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    People whose “only” problem is depression (by which I mean that all of their other problems are theoretically fixable) should be kept away from the means to suicide, or at least, they should be encouraged to forego the 9mm and instead use the more certain method of “old age”. The urge to suicide is said to pass quickly, even for those who go through with it. Not many people survive a jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, but some have, and they all said that, right after jumping, they regretted their decision.
    Ahh, I'd be willing to bet those people were more emotionally reactive about their decision to suicide. It didn't seem to be something they were mentally firm on, as least it doesn't sound like it.

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    I heard that suicidal people think they are out of options and need to be shown how many options they have available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rust View Post
    The republican christians are more bent on annihilation because they have faith in immortality but cannot believe in their own salvation, because of sin within their spirit which they hide and project; so they are stuck in the world, and they see the world falling apart around them. Then they feel their demise pressing in on them. So then they lash out at the democrats for their faulty work and the degrading world, they try to purge the world through aggression.
    I'm technically a Republican Christian. But I don't understand this. I do believe in my own salvation. If I am bent on annihilation, it is regarding a focus on the aftermath of my personal annihilation, and only because of salvation. I am stuck in the world and see it falling apart around me. But I certainly don't feel my demise pressing in on me. And I don't think laughing at someone counts as lashing out at them in aggression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rust View Post
    We all die, everything is fruitless, the only reason to try seems to be for the pleasure of the moment. Still the next generation inherits the earth.
    "'Vanity of vanities,' says the preacher; 'Vanity of vanities, all is vanity.' What profit has a man from all his labor in which he toils under the sun? One generation passes away, and another generation comes; but the Earth abides forever." -Ecclesiastes 1:2-4

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Rust View Post
    But, it is a Christian teaching that this happens; that the earth is dying; and that Jesus brought a sword, and division; and that only a few ascend to inhabit eternal life. The body dies, but the spirit inhabits the body. Without a belief in the soul Christianity makes no sense, and it can never make sense; but to an outsider, this is how to make sense of it. Without God the resurrection is impossible, with God it is necessary. So it is a matter of belief in Jesus, and God, is all it reduces to. Now, if the holy spirit is be received into you, and you follow it with true obedience, it will lift you up through life, and you will come back to life. But I lump myself in with the self annihilating ones today. Two days from now is Sunday, so I don't know what will happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    Awhile ago I read about a guy that was developing Alzheimers. He decided to kill himself before it got bad. He made a website and everything, detailing his decision. It's probably online if you look for it.

    But I think I agree with him. If I was pretty certain I was going to end up unable to care for myself and wouldn't be able to change that, I think I would want to kill myself before that happened as well. I wonder if it would be humane to assist someone in suicide if they can make a sound case for it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I heard that suicidal people think they are out of options and need to be shown how many options they have available.
    I saw this link nanashi posted earlier today: http://www.sciencealert.com/new-alzh...emory-function

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    This is a pretty interesting point. Society seems to have a lot of regulations to keep suicide methods out of reach of those that might want it. I can understand wanting to keep it away from someone that is just depressed, but then at the same time, if someone has been in a lot of emotional/physical pain for a majority of their life, they can't seem to change that, and maybe don't adapt well to living, why not let them decide to suicide? Certainly, we wouldn't want people to act out on suicide when they are emotionally vulnerable, but if someone can make a collected and rational case for it, can there be a certain point where it's okay to give someone the option?
    Anyone anywhere anywhen anyhow anywhy is how suicide should go down, ideally. Setting terms like "when rationally justified" is BS, hell, I consider rationality itself to be mostly BS. its just some BS know-it-alls throw around to make themselves sound superior & justify their oppression of others. bottom line is anything can be justified, thus introducing BS Like "justification" commodifies charisma (or w/e you wanna call it). remember, theyre assholes for even demanding justification of you in the 1st place. I mean just look at homo economicus & all that. they used to think being rational meant only maximizing own self-interest. but thats not how it works in reality. in reality, ppl dont spend 100s of hours figuring out what bar of soap, amongs dozens (overchoice, as its called), is best to buy cuz ppl arent robotic & operating on discretes like that, theyre fluid. even if you spent all that time investigating, it wouldnt eliminate the arbitrarity of it cuz you still set an arbitrary goal. you could just as easily have investigated beforehand whats the best way of investigating. which then may spawn more investigations. kinda like when you start clicking hyperlinks on wikipedia articles, leading to more hyperlinks, leading to more, ad infinitum. just goes to show that rationality is nothing more then an overrated religion & that instinct & impulse are far superior, lest chained down by "rationality" i.e. oppression, civilization, a sisyphan condition (intellectual exercises like socionics is another example, just look how ppl here have gone in circles trying to figure out how it works).

    one should never allow anyone to set terms for anything or to let them "earn your agreement" to anything cuz then they start taking you for granted & you've agreed to become a sacrificial pig/voluntary slave for them & w/e agenda theyre pushing (which may be secret, or ppl may not realize the implications yet i.e. naivete).

    you gotta fight for every single inch of individuality & freedom cuz this world is filled w/ assholes who just love to turn others into cogs in their machine i.e. others are seen as long-term means but not ends in themselves. at least murderers only see others as short-term means to an end. & murder rly isnt so bad if u believe in reincarnation anyway (which I do), cuz at least its upfront & honest, & ends suffering of the victim, can be used to social-darwinistically rid the world of weaklings & overpopulation too.

    often more dmg can be dealt long-term simply by tricking ppl into continually suffering. promises of a good future frequently use that, its using the carrot to trick ppl into tolerating suffering & abuse. lotsa religions use it. utopian projects like communism did it, causing suffering thru disillusionment later. but can aso be as mundane as smn hoping all their academic efforts early in life will pay off later only for it to be overrated or them to be stopped long before then (thru death, for example). the advantage gained for the carrot-exploiter is they technically didnt force anyone into things, which somehow makes it okay according to lotsa laws & morality, apparently. I guess debt-slavery builds on this too. I mean a lot of ppl didnt have any idea debt-slavery would be that bad & wouldnt have gotten into it if they knew better so youre essentially punishing them for being a non-superego type &/or ignorant (sth which everyone is, in some way, shape or form) + there being a system there to exploit this reality. it boils down to "oh sucks to be u, u were in the wrong place at the wrong time". the exploiter is rewarded simply for being more clever & subtle then overtly abusing. its dishonest & it sucks, I support the reign of the crude brute & the sword over the pen any day of the week.

    in fact all systems of law seem to be built around laying the blame on whoever is most unconscious of their malice or at least less directly involved in causing suffering. the murderer becomes a scapegoat to restore balance to the oppressive system, while the oppressive system continues to march along, producing murderers w/ its very existence. after all, murder doesnt exist objectively, killing does, but murder, only intersubjectively. the system seems to depend on such scapegoats for its own sustenance. rene girard has written about this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Girard claiming its the start of religion. makes sense. "nice & "religious" & "altruistic" ppl would be the least conscious of their malice (of their shadow archetype), the type to help ppl even when doing so hurts them &/or its unwanted. this way they can play themselves off as the "hero" & feeling good about themselves. they'd think themselves the good guys after they interfered in smn's suicide attempt. its a bit like sadism, but sadism in reverse or sth? at least the sadist is honest. the altruist would put others thru hell "for their own good" http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1996...d-for-the-good :

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

    anyways they always find smn to scapegoat, to suppress all the aggression. turn others into sacrificial lambs. if it isnt a murderer then its a vandal or a thief or a racist or a w/e. this is why revenge against smn/sth when one has nothing to gain for it except emotional gratification can be seen as hypocritical. after all there are lots of ppl who wouldnt take revenge even after being put thru a lot so it says more about the victim-turned-avenger then it does the experience which occasioned that transformation. the avenger can ofc justify w/ "anything which steps on my toes Id revenge against" thus making it so the motivation wouldnt have been different even if the circumstances were. either way it commodifies power, which can be seen as dangerous, & ofc leading to oppression, in the long term.

    when its inputed into a system like law then this system has to be pushed everywhere within its jurisdiction when the pressure is on for ppl not to overthrow it. this makes it arbitrary cuz in more peaceful times the punishment may be eased a bit. same goes for borders too, in one country u get death penalty for killing a single person in another u get away w/ mass-murder (& retain the option of suiciding in prison, if thats your thing). one way to erase the border stuff is to push the system everywhere but then u get imperialism, jihad & the like.

    & there could still be other planets out there w/ different laws which surely fanatics would dislike if they knew of their existence. mb its ultimately about bannishing the shadow/nihilism as far into the smallest corner as possible, altho it always returns eventually, ofc. so its seems laws are bound to cause arbitrarity or toughtcrime. reminds me a bit of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchhausen_trilemma , wonder if this can be related to the inherent weirdness of law, like theyre built to fail. morality & law is exclusivist after all.

    one has to fight for every inch of freedom & individuality it seems. this w/ never letting anyone but you set terms, living after smn else's terms is an uphill battle. give em an inch they take a mile. a mile of rope to hang you & any dissidents w/ that is. never take advice from smn who doesnt have to deal w/ the likely consequences &/or wouldn follow the same or similar advice themselves

    lawyers & bureaucrats are nothing but assholes who love to drag everything out to give emselves a raison d'etre. the onger each case takes the higher the demand the better the job security, pay & benefits. lawyers are not just parasites, but psychopaths as well apparently: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ng-psychopaths

    if u wanna know more about nihilism vs morality, or eternalism, check out: http://meaningness.com/preview-eternalism-and-nihilism

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    Uh, well, I'm not discounting what you say, nor necessarily agreeing with it. But there's a difference or distinction between being reactive and active. When someone decides to jump off a bridge to kill themselves, does it, and then survives, later saying they decided they wanted to live, well they fall much more into the emotionally reactive camp. Usually when people react to things it doesn't represent what they intended or desire as an outcome; they tend to lose control because they are simply reacting with no concept of what's going on or where they want things to go. Basically, it represents a foundation for neuroticism. Would you agree then that it's at least important to keep highly reactive people from having easy access to commit suicide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    Uh, well, I'm not discounting what you say, nor necessarily agreeing with it. But there's a difference or distinction between being reactive and active. When someone decides to jump off a bridge to kill themselves, does it, and then survives, later saying they decided they wanted to live, well they fall much more into the emotionally reactive camp. Usually when people react to things it doesn't represent what they intended or desire as an outcome; they tend to lose control because they are simply reacting with no concept of what's going on or where they want things to go. Basically, it represents a foundation for neuroticism. Would you agree then that it's at least important to keep highly reactive people from having easy access to commit suicide?
    no. I believe anyone should be able to kill themselves anywhen anywhere anyhow anywhy. highly neurotic ppl are incredibly easy to exploit so keeping em alive serves the interests of the well-established exploiters of the world perfectly. + its non social-darwinistic to let weaklings survive. besides you can say "didnt mean to" after a long time as well. Im sure the disillusioned communists at the end of the soviet era didnt mean for it to turn out like that i.e. a failure. hypothetically (or actually) some of those may have impulsively suicided before then if it wasnt for arrangements meant to prevent such. not dying just prolonged their suffering. but esp when it comes to neurotic ppl they may end up feeling their lives were in vain & they shouldve ended it way earlier. they might say they might say they didnt mean to afterwards to save face or make their rescuers feel good or sth?

    why give primacy to the long-term? its nothing better then the short-term. often it can be worse cuz damages sustained early in life frequently follow one throughout life. neurotic ppl are the least likely to improve i.e. their fate, while not wholly predetermined is fairly predictable. if you had your way youd try to fix them anyway, which indubitably would involve being put thru the wringer i.e. boring & humiliating hours of therapy (w/ the therapist ofc making lots of money on trying to "fix" this wreck of a person, when itd be more economical to just let em die, but dont allow that to become the dominant opinion cuz if so then the therapist have fewer sisyphean uneconomical tasks to make money off of), being given shitty unnatural drugs which mess up who ppl are & destroy genuineness while also letting big pharma make money off of this. if suicide rates were down, itd allow ppl to keep thinking that civilization "isnt THAT bad" & thus perpetuate this oppressive system. it might even reduce the suicide rate cuz ppl mightve an easier time cinging to this forced, illusionary sense of hope. "hey others pull thru w/o suicide so mb I can too" (except those others are fucked up on drugs).

    not letting ppl impulse suicide is also a slippery slope. like I said, give them an inch they take a mile of rope which they use to hang you w/. this is why I wont give you even a foot in the door by allowing for exceptions like "but impulsive!". if impulse is wrong, who's to say depression isnt? whos to say ANY reason for suicide isnt wrong? Ill have u know lots of the assholes out there, if magic existed (or more accurately, IMO, IF it exists, which it may, but ofc Illuminati wouldnt tell us) theyd be sure to change reality w/ this magic so that no one could kill themselves, effectively making us all prisoners of this universe until the spell is lifted. some part of the bible or w/e says sin starts in the mind not in the action. well, thats true here too, but ofc I dont consider suicide a sin, unlike the oppresive, freedom-hating, life-biased christians.

    suicide is an entirely legitimate answer to life. if one believes in multiple lives, then suicide means discarding a bad hand & drawing new cards. if one doesnt, then suicide may be an end to suffering, ensuring life doesnt overstay its welcome. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2951...oblem-and-that :

    “There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer.”

    if at any single poin in a person's life the answer is "no, its not worth it" & if theyve got access to an acceptable (from suicidee's pov, that is) means of suicide at that time, I believe they should not categorically be stopped from going thru w/ it. anyone whod deny others their desires clearly hate the world. otherwise, theyd be able to take reality by the horns. sine they dont, it means they are weaklings. others are a means to an end for them, namely shoring up their defences against the world. even the exploiters in power are often such weaklings cuz they wouldnt make it in a world w/o their BS system to abuse. both the exploiters (lawful evil, if d&d is ur thing) & the "altruistic" ("goodies" & "neutrals") ppl are nicer then the crude brute (chaotic evil). that is, they know how to ease the boundary between their ego & theirs more, they know more to defer gratification super-egoically so as to be awarded more later, often at the expense of others.

    also, anti-suicide commodifies wealth, as if it wasnt commodified enough already. e.g., smn who has the money to travel to switzerland & make use of their suicide assistance has an advantage over those who cant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zap View Post
    no. I believe anyone should be able to kill themselves anywhen anywhere anyhow anywhy. highly neurotic ppl are incredibly easy to exploit so keeping em alive serves the interests of the well-established exploiters of the world perfectly. + its non social-darwinistic to let weaklings survive. besides you can say "didnt mean to" after a long time as well. Im sure the disillusioned communists at the end of the soviet era didnt mean for it to turn out like that i.e. a failure. hypothetically (or actually) some of those may have impulsively suicided before then if it wasnt for arrangements meant to prevent such. not dying just prolonged their suffering. but esp when it comes to neurotic ppl they may end up feeling their lives were in vain & they shouldve ended it way earlier. they might say they might say they didnt mean to afterwards to save face or make their rescuers feel good or sth?

    why give primacy to the long-term? its nothing better then the short-term. often it can be worse cuz damages sustained early in life frequently follow one throughout life. neurotic ppl are the least likely to improve i.e. their fate, while not wholly predetermined is fairly predictable. if you had your way youd try to fix them anyway, which indubitably would involve being put thru the wringer i.e. boring & humiliating hours of therapy (w/ the therapist ofc making lots of money on trying to "fix" this wreck of a person, when itd be more economical to just let em die, but dont allow that to become the dominant opinion cuz if so then the therapist have fewer sisyphean uneconomical tasks to make money off of), being given shitty unnatural drugs which mess up who ppl are & destroy genuineness while also letting big pharma make money off of this. if suicide rates were down, itd allow ppl to keep thinking that civilization "isnt THAT bad" & thus perpetuate this oppressive system. it might even reduce the suicide rate cuz ppl mightve an easier time cinging to this forced, illusionary sense of hope. "hey others pull thru w/o suicide so mb I can too" (except those others are fucked up on drugs).

    not letting ppl impulse suicide is also a slippery slope. like I said, give them an inch they take a mile of rope which they use to hang you w/. this is why I wont give you even a foot in the door by allowing for exceptions like "but impulsive!". if impulse is wrong, who's to say depression isnt? whos to say ANY reason for suicide isnt wrong? Ill have u know lots of the assholes out there, if magic existed (or more accurately, IMO, IF it exists, which it may, but ofc Illuminati wouldnt tell us) theyd be sure to change reality w/ this magic so that no one could kill themselves, effectively making us all prisoners of this universe until the spell is lifted. some part of the bible or w/e says sin starts in the mind not in the action. well, thats true here too, but ofc I dont consider suicide a sin, unlike the oppresive, freedom-hating, life-biased christians.

    suicide is an entirely legitimate answer to life. if one believes in multiple lives, then suicide means discarding a bad hand & drawing new cards. if one doesnt, then suicide may be an end to suffering, ensuring life doesnt overstay its welcome. http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/2951...oblem-and-that :

    “There is but one truly serious philosophical problem and that is suicide. Judging whether life is or is not worth living amounts to answering the fundamental question of philosophy. All the rest — whether or not the world has three dimensions, whether the mind has nine or twelve categories — comes afterwards. These are games; one must first answer.”

    if at any single poin in a person's life the answer is "no, its not worth it" & if theyve got access to an acceptable (from suicidee's pov, that is) means of suicide at that time, I believe they should not categorically be stopped from going thru w/ it. anyone whod deny others their desires clearly hate the world. otherwise, theyd be able to take reality by the horns. sine they dont, it means they are weaklings. others are a means to an end for them, namely shoring up their defences against the world. even the exploiters in power are often such weaklings cuz they wouldnt make it in a world w/o their BS system to abuse. both the exploiters (lawful evil, if d&d is ur thing) & the "altruistic" ("goodies" & "neutrals") ppl are nicer then the crude brute (chaotic evil). that is, they know how to ease the boundary between their ego & theirs more, they know more to defer gratification super-egoically so as to be awarded more later, often at the expense of others.

    also, anti-suicide commodifies wealth, as if it wasnt commodified enough already. e.g., smn who has the money to travel to switzerland & make use of their suicide assistance has an advantage over those who cant.
    I can't respond to all that you have written right now (but I would like to come back and respond once I get home) but supposedly people who jump and survive instantly regret their decision to jump as they are plummeting towards the ground.

    Just FYI, I've done my share of research lately.

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    I do think that those seeking assisted suicide options should go through some type of explorative therapy first, for the purposes of seeing if there are solutions to their problem, and/or seeking out alternative options. This helps a person make an informed decision as to whether self-death is THE end result they truly want.

    To say "anyone anywhere anywhen anyhow anywhy" can lead to a few slippery slopes. Not that I think one has to justify to someone else why they want this option, it's the individual's own life. But I'd fear people would start abusing the system, murderers could plea that they were just assisting the person's suicide, psychopath assistors could disappear a person and torture them for years while claiming that a certain type of death in which the body wouldn't be found had been requested, similar by people out to make money in human trafficking, etc etc.

    I would prefer to see something more like clinics with trained therapists and wide resource nets for problem solving, as well as the client taking time to fill out a plan, something that encourages them to think about their decision, that shows them other valid options to choose from, that has them imagining the consequences of this action, and something that helps reduce reactive decisions and increases well thought out decisions. Again, not for the purposes of justifying or getting approval for the decision, but to encourage informed decisions.

    Edited to add: i'm talking about assisted suicides, not self-inflicted suicide.
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    I'll convince them not to kill themselves if I want them alive. IT's not about them staying alive, but their staying alive because they are more useful to me living than dead. In that case, convincing them is an easy chore. I'm impossible to deny when I rly want something....

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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    I do think that those seeking assisted suicide options should go through some type of explorative therapy first, for the purposes of seeing if there are solutions to their problem, and/or seeking out alternative options. This helps a person make an informed decision as to whether self-death is THE end result they truly want.

    To say "anyone anywhere anywhen anyhow anywhy" can lead to a few slippery slopes. Not that I think one has to justify to someone else why they want this option, it's the individual's own life. But I'd fear people would start abusing the system, murderers could plea that they were just assisting the person's suicide, psychopath assistors could disappear a person and torture them for years while claiming that a certain type of death in which the body wouldn't be found had been requested, similar by people out to make money in human trafficking, etc etc.

    I would prefer to see something more like clinics with trained therapists and wide resource nets for problem solving, as well as the client taking time to fill out a plan, something that encourages them to think about their decision, that shows them other valid options to choose from, that has them imagining the consequences of this action, and something that helps reduce reactive decisions and increases well thought out decisions. Again, not for the purposes of justifying or getting approval for the decision, but to encourage informed decisions.

    Edited to add: i'm talking about assisted suicides, not self-inflicted suicide.
    I do not support assisted suicide under any circumstances, myself. But I just want to say I think that these are all very good causes for concern and good suggestions for if you did believe in it.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 04-28-2015 at 05:44 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    I would kill myself if I knew I had a truly debilitating medical condition that I knew would progressively get worse over time and there was nothing to do to stop it. I only want to live if I can have some shred of dignity. Having to depend on people for every little thing is no way to live.
    I understand the sentiment completely. The idea of having to depend on others (especially when we have all been disappointed by those we were counting on for help for something) - is frightening. Who would want to be completely helpless and dependent on others? However, some people live that way. I have worked with handicapped persons, assisting them, or helping them to learn when they are mentally handicapped, and they are witnesses that life is of value - even in that state. They are unique souls, no one else is like them, and they are loved, and they love. True, there are those who are not much loved and that is a greatest sadness. But even for them the hope of that - and that hope is of value.

    One of the people who has inspired me to believe that life itself has value is Joni Eareckson Tada. She is an inspirational speaker, and a quadriplegic - she lost the use of all her limbs from a spine injury she incurred when she dove into the Chesapeake Bay at 17. What tragic suffering! She since been completely dependent on others to dress and eat and take care of ALL her bodily needs. Yet she inspires so many, and her life is of such great value. Although of course she went through having no will to live, she moved past it, in time, so much so that now she says that she would not trade her life for anything, including that accident, since, because of the difficulties, she has learned so much and to love life so much. She is a beacon of light in the darkness, as we should also be.

    So while helplessness is a terrible cross to bear, it is something the human spirit can rise above. I think we should be reaching out in love to people who are desperate, to help them to get to the highest place their human spirit can get. By taking their hand when they stumble - not their wrist to help them slit it. By not agreeing with their understandable sentiment of difficult circumstances, saying: "Yes, your life is worthless, here, let me help you get rid of it." Its our responsibility, in our strength, in our current better worldview, to say "I see your worth" and that "Life is worth living." (And, "This, too, shall pass"). We need to be people of hope, and of love. And we need to get out of ourselves and give to others.

    To be so needy of people's help that you are completely dependent on them is a gift to humanity. Because people need to give to others and get out of themselves in order to rise above base humanity, in order to truly learn to love. And one's helplessness is an aid to that.

    When I was a child, I remember my mother saying, "I hope I always keep my mind. To lose my mind would be the worst thing!" She asserted that she hoped to always keep her independence, to not be a burden to others. Well, it didn't work that way at all. She has lost her mind, and now is completely dependent on us. She cannot toilet, she cannot remember to eat or fix her own food (or be trusted to try to - once, when we thought of her as still independent (she acted that way!), I came to her home and she made us sandwiches - raw chicken breast on bread - it looked like ham to her) and she must be confined to certain areas of the house because she could hurt herself in the kitchen or on the stairs, and if she were to roam out alone (she'd very much like to!) she would be completely lost immediately. In other words, she needs constant care for all her needs and constant supervision.

    So my husband and I are provided with constant opportunities to learn to serve unselfishly and also to be uncomplaining (that's harder!). (God knows we are slow learners so we are getting tons of chances!) But like every difficulty in life, there is much good for us to learn in the hardship. With Mom's mind and abilities gone, its like she is not there, yet her care is a constant reminder she is. She is still her, she is there. Even though you can't "find her", usually, occasionally there will be some response from her, words spoken, or activity that reminds us she is still herself. And most importantly, her life and her being is of value just because it is.

    These are not lessons we would have picked in life, but for all of us, much of our path in life is not what we pick. But the lessons we are learning from this path help us value life for its own sake. And many, many others learn this when they have a handicapped child to raise, or a ailing relative to care for. So many have learned through difficult circumstances that life has value. And its those people who are going to stand against devaluing life through assisted suicide. Its not just some "unreasonable" political-party-other-than-your-own, or some people who practice a religion you don't. Its going to be people who, by experience, learn that life has value. Also those who just have a heart for truth and can just see that great reality - that life itself has value.

    Mother Theresa is a great witness to that, too. She helped the dying. She did not help them die - they were already dying and suffering. But she valued the natural life they had left, and treated them accordingly. She lived a truth that people affirm and admire, and those that see that truth will not support assisted suicide, whatever their political affiliation is, and whether they are people of faith or not.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I can think of a lot of scenarios where I would probably choose suicide over suffering, especially if I were terminally ill.

    I'm sure a lot of you have heard about Brittany Maynard's dying with dignity movment.
    I think it would be more aptly named an "I did it MY way" movement. It could be the theme song!

    "MY way" appeals to our sense of independence, for sure. I see pride in that, not dignity. I see true dignity in acceptance of natural life and natural death - not in trying to control it to your own liking.

    I have to say, this movement not only doesn't compel me, it strikes me as cowardly and depraved. To attempt to pretty up the reality with the misplaced word "dignity" is just twisted.
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 04-28-2015 at 06:07 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I saw this link nanashi posted earlier today: http://www.sciencealert.com/new-alzh...emory-function
    Abbie, its very encouraging! But its discouraging that they are not going to start human trials until 2017! Its almost like they have to work out who is going to patent it and get rich on the technique before they let people just use it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I think it would be more aptly named an "I did it MY way" movement. It could be the theme song!

    "MY way" appeals to our sense of independence, for sure. I see pride in that, not dignity. I see true dignity in acceptance of natural life and natural death - not in trying to control it to your own liking.
    *
    its no more a case of not letting nature take its course than other procedures like double bypass surgeries, prosthetic limb attachments, life support, chemotherapy, brain scans etc etc etc....what you're describing is christian science. christian science is full of loons.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    its no more a case of not letting nature take its course than other procedures like double bypass surgeries, prosthetic limb attachments, life support, chemotherapy, brain scans etc etc etc....what you're describing is christian science. christian science is full of loons.
    Well, I would instead say that there are lots of intelligent Christian Scientists who are persons of good will - its just parts of their theology that are loony...

    I have to say, Kill4Me, you have the perfect name for participating in this thread!

    The big divide between the procedures you mention and assisted suicide is that those procedures support and enhance life - they are not intended to take it. Those procedures adhere to the original, historic Hippocratic Oath - which is clear on respect for life: "... I will take care that they suffer no hurt or damage. ..Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.".

    Those statements are in stark contrast to the new, "modern version" - actually a compete rewrite - of that time-honored oath. It not only deletes all statements respecting life but adds in verbiage to support the taking of life - and even tries to dignify it by misnaming it an "awesome responsibility". No thanks! That's not a responsibility I want my doctor to have.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well, I would instead say that there are lots of intelligent Christian Scientists who are persons of good will - its just parts of their theology that are loony...

    I have to say, Kill4Me, you have the perfect name for participating in this thread! :big grin:

    Yes, and I also had the perfect name for proposing the suicide contract I tried to coerce a member into once. heh

    The big divide between the procedures you mention and assisted suicide is that those procedures support and enhance life - they are not intended to take it. Those procedures adhere to the original, historic Hippocratic Oath - which is clear on respect for life: "... I will take care that they suffer no hurt or damage. ..Nor shall any man's entreaty prevail upon me to administer poison to anyone; neither will I counsel any man to do so. Moreover, I will give no sort of medicine to any pregnant woman, with a view to destroy the child.".

    I'm not basing my views on what the greeks said a million years ago.

    And I fully support early stage abortion. A fetus is not a child.


    Those statements are in stark contrast to the new, "modern version" - actually a compete rewrite - of that time-honored oath. It not only deletes all statements respecting life but adds in verbiage to support the taking of life - and even tries to dignify it by misnaming it an "awesome responsibility". No thanks! That's not a responsibility I want my doctor to have.

    Well, I'm not a medical philosopher. So these philosophical ramifications are not of major interest to me....keep in mind the Hippocratic oath is just a manmade document same as the bible is. This is too funny, though. You drew a similar conclusion as me...as I too see no dignity in taking a pill. It's ironic because you are the exact opposite of me. I am the epitome of somebody who has not disowned their sense of omnipotence onto an outside 'diety'....You are the epitome of somebody who has. You'll fight to the end because you have Jesus. But me...
    because i have my self.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    I'm not basing my views on what the greeks said a million years ago.
    Its great that you base you views on what seems right to you - you use your own mind. But also, its not wise to dismiss the wisdom of the ages. That Oath is one that has stood the test of time for a reason. For many, many centuries, wise, good and educated persons have adopted this oath, which was written swearing by Apollo and other gods and goddesses. People who would never swear to those gods would swear by the oath itself because of its timeless truth and wisdom.

    What people have previously learned and valued is worth noting. Its a good thing that we do not have to reinvent the wheel...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    And I fully support early stage abortion. A fetus is not a child.
    You are entitled to your opinion. But maybe revisit it soem time, with some more thinking. The word fetus is used to keep people from thinking about the reality of the child, but the word origin tells us the truth - it means baby. Here is a good place to start rethinking about that "fetus", a dose of reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Hb3DFELq4Y Clearly that fetus has a mind and a will, a will to live, and that fetus has a beating heart and ten fingers and ten toes, a unique face, and a DNA that matches no one else that ever lived or died... (That short is a classic, and used old technology, but there are certainly better ones out there now with all the amazing new technology.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    ...This is too funny, though. You drew a similar conclusion as me...as I too see no dignity in taking a pill. It's ironic because you are the exact opposite of me. I am the epitome of somebody who has not disowned their sense of omnipotence onto an outside 'diety'....You are the epitome of somebody who has. You'll fight to the end because you have Jesus. But me...
    Well, we do not have to have the same beliefs to have the same conclusion. I think the human heart knows what is true and what is not. Just, sometimes, our wounded hearts want to pretend things are not what they are...

    Do you really feel omnipotent? Well, I suppose we all do at moments... but - really?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    because i have my self.
    Self matters. Most of us come to a point when we realize self is not enough.

    An ex-Atheist I heard on TV yesterday said basically there are only 2 good arguments for Athesism*, and that any other arguments are weak and useless. He was quoting some authority but I do not know which. Those 2 are: 1) Bad things happen, so there is not God, and 2) Things seem to be working fine here without God, so, there must be no God...

    Just curious, which one of those is yours?
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    @Shay, I will pray for you, and if you want to post here (or PM) your actual date I will be sure to be praying for you that day.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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  33. #33
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    Also I have more to say to what you wrote above. I will write it soon, when I have more time.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  34. #34
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Hi Shay! Sorry it took me so long to get back to commenting on this when I said i was going to do so. I felt both motivated to share/comment and a reticence, since I do not have direct experience to share from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    ...I find this a difficult subject to talk about in person and for many years would drop some tears and be unable to speak when my health problems were brought up - especially out of the blue.

    I cried again when on the phone with my ESTp mother a week ago... I'm 45 now and don't know why I still do it
    I know what its like to be suffering, inside, in silence, over a long period of time, among those close to you who do not know what its like to be in your shoes and do not have anything useful to offer for your pain (and probably feel helpless that they cannot). Its not so bad that you cannot go on, and so you do go on, pain kept to yourself, and then it comes out at inappropriate times, at least, times you didn't plan it to.

    I am thinking particularly of my painfully difficult marriage, that seemed so normal to others by outward appearances, and going to church where there were so many people whose marriages did not have the problems I had, how often, just when I didn't want to, because something touched me, in the sermon, or the music, I was suddenly reminded of the pain I did not ever want to address, since I tried everything and nothing changed it, and it would all sweep out like a broken dam and I would start weeping right there in church, silent tears, but, buckets of them. I would be mortified at probably being seen by those next to or behind me, and invariably I would have ONE kleenex only, almost useless against all that wetness. I hated that the dam would break there, instead of at home, alone.

    I also asked other wives at church for their marital advice, but, I never realized that, since I asked those who were where I wanted to be - strong women who were happily married to nice men - that they had no helpful advice to offer, since their experience of marriage was so different from mine.

    (In actuality I was in a hopeless marriage, and the only people who could have helped me are those who had divorced out of such a situation, but I avoided such people, since I wanted to -somehow- stay married).

    I also remember the different misery of being a single parent, and feeling so alone among intact families. Looking to them for advice or comfort of course would have not been helpful either. Who would have been good to talk to were well-adjusted single Moms, but I never found any. Those few that I met I quickly found were all heavily depending on supports I did not have (a supportive family) or did not want (a new live-in boyfriend).

    So maybe in the same way your family, they are not able to be helpful because they don't know what its like to be in your shoes. But if you could find someone who has struggled with health problems, repeated operations, that has dealt with it successfully, I really think that you could find comfort and support there. If not in real life, then online somehow. Because we all need support.

    Recently I went to a neighboring church for a daily (weekday) Mass. The priest, an African native, was new, and after Mass, when the routine is to just leave, he asked for a few minutes, and said he wanted to tell something of himself because he realized few people knew him. He said he had undergone SEVEN operations on his throat in the last year, each one failing, because he could not even swallow, or eat food. Also in this time, more recently, his father in Africa had died. He returned for the funeral, because his father meant so much to him, he said they had a spiritual connection, and that he felt his father - in a spiritual sense - had died so that he could live on and do his work. And he was all healed now. I remeber being surprised at how isolated he must have felt (though at the time he spoke to us, he seemed quite well, physically, spiritually, emotionally).

    I am telling you this because he also suffered, seven operations in a short time, and also being new to this country, a stranger in a strange land brings more isolation.

    So, I'm hoping it does not sound trite to say "count your blessings", but, in the days when I had times when I was close to the brink of falling into despair at times, after my divorce, having lost my home, my place in the world, and then things in that present circumstances seeming hopeless, there was something that helped me, which just came to me in those times, and I think it was God giving me the thought as He saw me hurling toward despair. I would suddenly feel prompted to remember how things could be worse then they were now, and how they were worse, for many others. For me, it was to say to myself, "Some Moms are taking their kids to chemotherapy today." Then would instantly sober me and keep me from falling into despair, realizing that some others were dealing today with a much-worse case scenario.

    So I suggest that for if you get to that point.

    I know you are not suicidal, so I am not saying this for you, but for someone who is, they could take that much-worse scenario further, and think of how they could help someone in a worse case than them. Like they could help that Mom out by making dinner that week for their family, bringing it by every day. Etc. Then thier life does have a purpose. There are so many people worse off than us that would be so blessed by our help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    ...I immensely dislike being defective but as my sister says 'I minimize everything about it'.
    Somehow it seems wrong to think of yourself as defective. I think "afflicted" is a better, truer word. Yes - something is essentially untrue about that word "defective". If its untrue, its holding you back. The truth sets you free. So maybe better rephrase that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    This sister has booked her flights to come and be my caregiver after the next operation...I have to swallow my pride and say yes you can come as there is also another event on here at the same time which she deserves and desires to be a part of...but it's so difficult for me to accept this kind of help - to be seen in a bad state after an op and have someone bring me food and clean my house....I will just sit there like ? an empty shell maybe ? Whatever it is it's a terrible feeling.
    The 12-step prayer is a good one. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference." You can do nothing about the fact that you might be just "sitting" there at times, etc. We ask God for the serenity to accept the things we cannot change because we are having trouble achieving that ourselves. He will help you with that if you ask them. I truly think, He ALWAYS answers that prayer.

    Also your sickness and her care-taking is a gift to her. You can pray for any graces she needs to accept that gift as she works for you. God is working in each of you in unique ways. And I am sure you would do the same for her when she is in need!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    And even worse my newly found father arrives in the state the night before the op with his other two daughters and their partners to meet me. He's insisting on meeting the day after the operation but It's not happening...I guess I have to let him come by - but not them. If they do I think I will just try lock myself away.
    Well for goodness sakes, you certainly do not have to have a meeting with his daughters when you are in that state. Feel free to be insistent on that point. Make it clear that you are not going to feel well and you do NOT want to have this meeting, which is important to you, when you are not feeling well - in fact, you would be very upset if that is imposed on you. Also if you don't want him there, then tell him its just the plain WRONG TIME! Also you can tell the hospital who is and who is not allowed to come see you. You can warn your father that he and/or his daughters won't be admitted so he does not waste his time. You can state it as the doctors orders, too (you are supposed to limit who comes to see you while you are in recovery)..

    (Also realize your Dad might be ignorant about normal boundaries, so, you might have to be very, very clear with him on it. Some people require great clarity on such matters!)


    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    ....Yep I definitely don't want a bed ridden future, have escaped marbles or be in constant pain - though I don't personally believe in suicide as a direct option or think that I could ever perform what is required in the area.
    So, Lord take me sooner rather than later if that's the case, Amen.
    Oh, dear, well, don't borrow trouble. You do not know if you will be bedridden. No use in preparing for what may never happen. And certainly, do pray that you will not be. I will. God bless you, Shay. Two weeks away now?
    Last edited by Eliza Thomason; 05-06-2015 at 08:56 PM.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    Awhile ago I read about a guy that was developing Alzheimers. He decided to kill himself before it got bad. He made a website and everything, detailing his decision. It's probably online if you look for it.

    But I think I agree with him. If I was pretty certain I was going to end up unable to care for myself and wouldn't be able to change that, I think I would want to kill myself before that happened as well. I wonder if it would be humane to assist someone in suicide if they can make a sound case for it?

    There might be thread on this, I don't know.
    Euthenasia is legal in some countries, it will become the norm for the Western world eventually.

    If legality means moral you have your answer.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    @Eliza Thomason, thankyou for all the thought and time you must have put in to your response.
    I would like it known however that I am not looking for support, though you are more than welcome to send out a prayer or two for the next procedure in 3 weeks time.
    I will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    I am more just sharing to give away a little info into how I work.
    I see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    I assure you that defective or faulty is a good way to describe my problem, with other suitable words including deformity or malformation...difficult words to come to terms with but I find them better fitting than afflicted for that seems to me like I would somehow be a victim of the problem which I attempt not to be.
    I see. Yes, you have to use the words that resonate with you. In both the pairs of words you cited, I prefer the latter, just a bit. Those words must seem to you more honest or true? At any rate, with me, I have found it important to be careful how I label things with myself, and what I say to myself. I never seem to be beyond needing to check how I talk to myself. For instance, I find myself too often saying to myself, "I can't..." "Too much..." "Too hard...".etc. Such words, we all sense, in some way become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Though I am not one to think that its only your words that create your future, and I am not with the "name it and claim it" folk, there is something to that.

    I do however believe our overarching battle is a spiritual one - that we fight not against flesh and blood but powers and principalities. And I do fully believe that the "evil ones who prowl throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls" do toy with us, putting negative words - which are lies - into our minds for us to adopt, to create wreck havoc in us. So its necessary to be mindful (of our own spiritual state) and armed for the battle.

    (Though of course, as you show here, a negative word for one maybe not be one for another. It depends on how we see things individually).

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    Also afflicted almost sounds as if I were punished by God/The Creator
    I see. In "afflicted", I was drawn to the prophecy from Isaiah where it is said of Jesus: "He was oppressed, and he was afflicted...a man of sorrows, acquainted with grief". That words said of Jesus are a comfort to me when I am feeling afflicted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    whereas I think of it as something which has given me a better empathy for others and a personal humility - anyway that's my interpretation.
    That is a wonderful thing to have learned. Really, really valuable. I think the angels in Heaven sigh with admiration when we learn these little heavenly lessons, which come to us through hardships they don't know in Heaven, which, if we'd made another choice, could have easily come to bitterness or resentment...


    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    Also I've been growled by a doctor for not naming the problem for what it is, which in itself hurt so I am more conscious now to be more honest in this area.
    Well if it happens again, I hope you call him on it. Maybe, "why are you growling at me?" Or, "You can growl when you have a problem like this and then you can deal with it anyway you want. I have this problem and this is how I choose to deal with it." Or, something else that seems more right to you. I am sure in hindsight you can think of a good way to make a boundary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shay View Post
    The avatar which I have been using for a few months under my user name is a dragonfly I came across who though damaged could still fly and therefore I related to this little creature on some level.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .
    .


  37. #37
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I think it would be more aptly named an "I did it MY way" movement. It could be the theme song!

    "MY way" appeals to our sense of independence, for sure. I see pride in that, not dignity. I see true dignity in acceptance of natural life and natural death - not in trying to control it to your own liking.

    I have to say, this movement not only doesn't compel me, it strikes me as cowardly and depraved. To attempt to pretty up the reality with the misplaced word "dignity" is just twisted.
    Okay. Thank you for your biblically influenced opinion, Jesus freak.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Okay. Thank you for your biblically influenced opinion, Jesus freak.
    You have a nice day, Starfall.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    .


  39. #39
    LauriesCrusador's Avatar
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    I'm in favor of assisted suicide when a person is in a final stage of an illness and the person suffers or its foreseeable that the person will suffer persistent and unbearable pain but only under strict condictions in order to minimize abuse, (like e.g. illness must be documented by a physician's report, presense of a physician when the lethal drugs are given and until death occurs, a second physicians who determines whether criteria are fullfilled wouldn't be bad, patient must be informed about alternatives in detail before) although legalizing assisted suicide should never result in denying or simply delaying life-sustaining expensive treatment nor propagating assisted suicide in order to push ill and elderly people in that direction. Yes, that was all one sentence. Halfway through I decided to see if I could pull it off.

    Anyway, I'm also in favor of euthanasia (or active assisted suicide) in cases of irreversible brain damage, coma or PVS if the patient made an advance directive before where this is clearly stated.

    Be it assisted suicide, euthanasia or suicide, I don't think it is for others to decide... though suicide is not equal suicide.

    For instance, someone who got a diagnosis of an illness that will lead to death anyway (like e.g. cancer, doesn't matter whether someone decides to not try anything possible or already went through chemotherapy etc and it's foreseeable that this battle can't be won – any further medical "treatment" just means to prolong the suffering anyway but not to ensure quality of life as physicians prefer to see it) or is developing an illness that makes him dependent or disabled "has the right" to end his life before it gets too bad although the 64$ question is, when is the right time because you might end it too early and thus miss some really good stuff but when you wait too long it might be too late and you're not able anymore to do it. And yes, that was all one sentence too.

    On the other hand, someone who toys with the idea of committing suicide because life is beyond bearing, associating death with peace, release, warmth, security, rather yearns for a more pleasant way of life than actually having real death wishes. And someone who is convinced to be Superman and believes he can fly and thus jumps from a high-rise building also does not have real death wishes but learns it the hard way that the fall (or flight) is of no importance, rather the landing.

    However, I'm not going to judge someone who decided to end his life since I have no idea what it was that made suicide seem the only choice for him even though suicide, unlike any other death incl. assisted-suicide and unless it's a cool, rational decision (and very few are), leaves more questions than answers, all forms of judgements and this invisible pointing-finger directed at those who are left behind. But why would the dead give a fuck? He'll be labelled mentally ill anyway... whether true or not.

    I also think that people who have witnessed the suicide of a family member or close friend have a different approach towards it and may be at higher risk or more ready to do it since this experience tore down the wall in their minds significantly.
    "The spirit of resistance to government
    is so valuable on certain occasions,
    that I wish it to be always kept alive.
    It will often be exercised when wrong
    but better so than not to be exercised at all.
    I like a little rebellion now and then.
    It is like a storm in the atmosphere."
    Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShihTzu View Post
    I can assists zap in his death any time. His suicide I mean. So don't get me wrong. In fact, I am willing to assist every other quadra in suicide except delta.

    First, I would step into alpha quadra, throw a black hole at ILEs and watch them swirling yelling 'weeeeeeeeeeeeeee', then steal their time machine or something. next stop is beta quadra, where I would kick the teeth of SLEs in and snatch their tetris nintendo nerd game. In gamma qaudra, I 'm going to smash the piggy bank there that can't afford pizza to finance my Socionics Tour 2015.

    With the time machine in my possession and nerd tetris nintendo game plus monies it is time to tinkle with what I have got, resulting in unimaginable terror. I would move back in time, wait until Inspector Clouseau's mum meets his future husband, de-materialise and possess her. After that I would have an abortion.
    Hahaha, so u fantasize about being a woman, Absurd... Guess it's true then, you're gay. Don't forget to buy http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs4/i/200...y_KeyBoard.jpg & here's proof of ur gayness https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...-gay-male-porn

    https://archive.is/Ta67A
    "Overcompensation may also take place if a man doubts his masculinity, and goes out of his way to talk about subjects that are considered masculine, such as cars, sports, and fighting. He may act aggressively or verbally hostile towards homosexuals, in an attempt to appear more masculine. If this person also had negative experience with women, he may act overly chauvinistic towards women, for example stating phrases such as “all women are sluts or bitches.”"
    Yup, sounds like Absurd & his anti-gay tirades. He's gay, folks.

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