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Thread: Avoiding your dual

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    Default Avoiding your dual

    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person

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    Reasons I've [seemingly] avoided my dual: no apparent connection, didn't like the person, had feelings for them, thought they didn't care about us/wanted to be left alone (it's sometimes hard to tell with Fe PoLR).

    Maybe she likes you and doesn't know how to respond? Maybe it's all in your head? Why not talk to her? What's the worst that could happen?
    Life's a bitch and she's got me pussy whipped.

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    It doesn't matter. Ask her what's up and sort it out with her.
    Last edited by suedehead; 04-09-2015 at 07:31 AM.

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    No my biggest problem was i kept finding horrible, insane, mean, vindictive and using duals. Also, they were mean assholes who employeed their "friends" to hurt me too and both my ESE and LSE family members invested countless hours trying to make me feel better.That's over

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    I think a lot of times your dual is not the sort of person you had in mind for yourself. So you avoid him/her. But if you pursue the person as a "good friend only", then you circumvent that. You are accepting their pre-judgment that you are not their dating type, and putting energy into just friendship. It gives them time to get to know you, and then, if its meant to be, they will certainly change their minds..

    Your SEE Dual is sociable and probably would be happy to hang out as friends. SEEs also tend to act on and speak out on their feeling-impressions. If her first feeling impression is you are not her type to date, she will be assertive in saying so. But, SEEs do change their minds...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    No my biggest problem was i kept finding horrible, insane, mean, vindictive and using duals. Also, they were mean assholes who employeed their "friends" to hurt me too and both my ESE and LSE family members invested countless hours trying to make me feel better.That's over
    Maritsa, it just makes no sense socionically for you to have friendships/relationships with a Delta Dual who gets increasingly mean as you know him better. No one describes Deltas as "horrible, mean, vindictive". Certainly not another Delta. However, we Deltas sometimes have those issues with Gammas and Betas. From here:

    Beta: Deltas tend to see Beta types as people who "dream big" and always want to turn things into grandiose endeavors, yet can't manage day-to-day affairs effectively. Also, Beta types seem unwilling to consider things from the point of view of others, which gives them a streak of meanness and cruelty.

    Gamma: Deltas tend to see Gamma types as driven and reliable in personal and business relationships, but not sufficiently understanding of people who want to pursue their own individual path in life. Gamma types sometimes become too demanding and can have a streak of vindictiveness or spitefulness which prevents them from being accepting and forgiving.


    The above, fits, doesn't it. When I have been struck by the surprising meanness of someone, its often a Beta or a Gamma. I see that in your conflicts, here, too.

    The exhausting conflicts you had with that one guy you dated are just too, too unheard of for ANY Dual, especially a Delta Dual. They sound exactly like the conflicts in Conflict Relations. And since your Conflictor happens to be a Beta, your not only experiencing conflicts with him but deeming him "horrible, mean" fits with Beta. Another "tell" is that Conflict partners are both are equally exhausted by the conflict of the relationship. So, if your guy was all relaxed about the problems you had with him, then maybe he is not your Conflictor. But if he was also stressed out by the conflict, I do not see how you could have been anything but Conflictors. NOT Duals.

    What seems like "shocking meanness" from the SLE to you and me is, instead, "acceptable, understandable and not-shocking" to his Beta Dual... and probably okay with his Activity and Mirror, too.

    You need to understand so you can forgive. Then you are free. Truly free! It feels great, too. But betrayal and what feels like betrayal are the hardest things to forgive, and can take a long time. I know. But understanding is a fundamental stepping stone in the process. That's why I say. It will help you heal that sore that is still there.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Maritsa, it just makes no sense socionically for you to have friendships/relationships with a Delta Dual who gets increasingly mean as you know him better. No one describes Deltas as "horrible, mean, vindictive". Certainly not another Delta. However, we Deltas sometimes have those issues with Gammas and Betas. From here:

    Beta: Deltas tend to see Beta types as people who "dream big" and always want to turn things into grandiose endeavors, yet can't manage day-to-day affairs effectively. Also, Beta types seem unwilling to consider things from the point of view of others, which gives them a streak of meanness and cruelty.

    Gamma: Deltas tend to see Gamma types as driven and reliable in personal and business relationships, but not sufficiently understanding of people who want to pursue their own individual path in life. Gamma types sometimes become too demanding and can have a streak of vindictiveness or spitefulness which prevents them from being accepting and forgiving.


    The above, fits, doesn't it. When I have been struck by the surprising meanness of someone, its often a Beta or a Gamma. I see that in your conflicts, here, too.

    The exhausting conflicts you had with that one guy you dated are just too, too unheard of for ANY Dual, especially a Delta Dual. They sound exactly like the conflicts in Conflict Relations. And since your Conflictor happens to be a Beta, your not only experiencing conflicts with him but deeming him "horrible, mean" fits with Beta. Another "tell" is that Conflict partners are both are equally exhausted by the conflict of the relationship. So, if your guy was all relaxed about the problems you had with him, then maybe he is not your Conflictor. But if he was also stressed out by the conflict, I do not see how you could have been anything but Conflictors. NOT Duals.

    What seems like "shocking meanness" from the SLE to you and me is, instead, "acceptable, understandable and not-shocking" to his Beta Dual... and probably okay with his Activity and Mirror, too.

    You need to understand so you can forgive. Then you are free. Truly free! It feels great, too. But betrayal and what feels like betrayal are the hardest things to forgive, and can take a long time. I know. But understanding is a fundamental stepping stone in the process. That's why I say. It will help you heal that sore that is still there.
    I know that you like to think of the best when think of Deltas Eliza. I liked thinking that too when I was looking to date. I thought I would find no one but men who valued a strong relationship based on love, support, and caring. I think that part of my bad experience I'll contribute to how life experiences change people. I can see what you mean by possible typing error and that may be.

    At first my own bf seemed more Beta and even Gamma but we got past certain aspects that make each other feel that way and once those feelings subside our delta nature stands out clearly. He takes care of most everything and I'm expected to be myself calm and relaxed, you should see the way he wotks his logic at the doctor's with my dad. A born lawyer. It's all in the past for me. I'm very greatful for a good friend like you who has kept my spirits up, make me believe in myself. I didn't think i could do it. I was told how wrong I was in many ways. You didn't make me see that. You prayed with me and help get past it.

    I'm trying to say that life experience messes people up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I know that you like to think of the best when think of Deltas Eliza. I liked thinking that too when I was looking to date. I thought I would find no one but men who valued a strong relationship based on love, support, and caring. I think that part of my bad experience I'll contribute to how life experiences change people. I can see what you mean by possible typing error and that may be.

    At first my own bf seemed more Beta and even Gamma but we got past certain aspects that make each other feel that way and once those feelings subside our delta nature stands out clearly. He takes care of most everything and I'm expected to be myself calm and relaxed, you should see the way he works his logic at the doctor's with my dad. A born lawyer. It's all in the past for me. I'm very grateful for a good friend like you who has kept my spirits up, make me believe in myself. I didn't think i could do it. I was told how wrong I was in many ways. You didn't make me see that. You prayed with me and help get past it.

    I'm trying to say that life experience messes people up.
    Aw, that was well said, Maritsa. I am glad your relationship is continuing to turn out better and better. Thanks for the kind words. Yes, we are all a bit messed up from life experiences and many times the worst-behaved people have very good cause for their behavior. I like to understand, and Socionics has been a great tool for me for understanding. Especially for those types I have a harder time understanding. And Socionics is so very equalizing, too - we all have the same amount of types of people who really understand and relate well to us, and we all have the same amount of types who think that our doing things our way is really stupid and wrong or annoying. So, when we are in a situation where some certain types may be really excelling while we instead are messing up, we can remeber that we will excel in something else and also in other circumstances they would be in our shoes.

    Back to bad life experiences -- its a challenge. Forgiveness is one of those powerful things that helps us put it behind, but a lot of times its a process. (And I'm not saying this just for you - just stating a truth we all deal with.) And anger and bitterness is oftentimes a key part of the process of getting there.

    Delta rocks.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    Sean, I thought more about this last night so I'll say more. First of all, Duals often have a hard time recognizing each other as something special, and are slow getting started. See this: http://www.socionics.com/rel/dlt.htm Probably you know about Socionics Duality and she doesn't? I am thinking that's likely. So you are way ahead of her as to knowing how huge your potential is together. She instead woudl need time to realize that she likes being around you and wants to stay being around you. In my own Duality relation, we have been married a year (anniversary coming up). We met in Oct.2011 after being online friends a long time with no intention of romance. But there was an unexpected spark there when we met - which for me was a fire; I really fell for him. So we resumed writing, but he gave no indication his feelings were anything near so strong as mine. To understand more on the topic we weren't discussing (love), I read about his type on MBTI (he is ISTP/ISTp/SLI) and I did not know anything about Socionics at first but I could see on MBTI that his type needed more time to know and to act on his feelings. He prefers being friends first. Other ISTPs gave me similar ISTP advice that made me realize I just needed to wait for him to act, and he eventually did. Meanwhile we wrote as friends.

    So I suggest you be friends with that nice SEE. You can ask SEEs here why she acts like she does and says what she does (which will be completely different from how you'd act) and they will explain it for you. I hope it works out for you! My husband has a 27 year old SEE daughter who is available - she just broke up with a guy she was seeing sort of casually for a long time. He was I don't know what type - we didn't meet him but from what she said there was some good stuff and some unimpressive stuff - mainly that he didn't show her the interest we think she is deserving of. I am praying she finds an ILI! I don't know how. Maybe we should encourage her to spend time online. They are supposed to be online a lot...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is?
    Perhaps because it sounds too good to be true?
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    No

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    Deltas tend to see Beta types as people who "dream big" and always want to turn things into grandiose endeavors, yet can't manage day-to-day affairs effectively. Also, Beta types seem unwilling to consider things from the point of view of others, which gives them a streak of
    meanness and cruelty


    Socionics doesn't exist. I can handle day to day affairs just fine and I'm beta, supposedly. I am a super responsible person. And the exact opposite of mean and cruel.

    Maybe the stuff people think about others is I don't know, wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    If you haven't actually dualized it's going to be extreme (I'm saying this from an Alpha point of view unfortunately, but if the system extends it should be similar). First dual kind of is obscene, you can fully be you and they love you for it. Literature says it's religious experience tier. Yep. Especially if you've never really felt accepted, it's ridiculous. I think I've hammered this point down 3 times. First dual will suck though, if you're not careful, because all the baggage and fronts and masks you have will come into play and acting outside of yourself will fuck it up. Flood it with Ni and Fi HA and all your whatever you ILI do, don't try to be like an SLI, or an LIE, or an SLE or an SEI or it will go bad fast. Personally I thought I needed to be alpha male (in the muchisimo sense not the quadra sense) because of society and the SLE faking totally made for some awkward hangouts, it stabilized afterwards but life got in the way, so I couldn't see her again.

    If you start being all comforting because that's what you think society wants it'll fuck it up. Second thing is quasi tricks us hard, you have to pay real attention to what's ignored and PoLR. Under the right circumstances you can accidentally 'dualize" a conflictor, that will fuck you up way harder than anything a dual will do, Especially in situations where you end up using your demonstrative a lot and it pulls them in and you think it was your lead, I learned that hard when I thought I found a dual and poured a lot of effort into it, even though her creative seemed a little hidden, it worked amazing for 2 months, then it slowly clusterfucked into hardcore pain as we shortened each other's fuses.
    @Maritsa I'm thinking you probably found an SLE, and did the same horrid thing I did and poured lots of resources in only to get hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedMarquee View Post
    If you haven't actually dualized it's going to be extreme (I'm saying this from an Alpha point of view unfortunately, but if the system extends it should be similar). First dual kind of is obscene, you can fully be you and they love you for it. Literature says it's religious experience tier. Yep. Especially if you've never really felt accepted, it's ridiculous. I think I've hammered this point down 3 times. First dual will suck though, if you're not careful, because all the baggage and fronts and masks you have will come into play and acting outside of yourself will fuck it up. Flood it with Ni and Fi HA and all your whatever you ILI do, don't try to be like an SLI, or an LIE, or an SLE or an SEI or it will go bad fast. Personally I thought I needed to be alpha male (in the muchisimo sense not the quadra sense) because of society and the SLE faking totally made for some awkward hangouts, it stabilized afterwards but life got in the way, so I couldn't see her again.

    If you start being all comforting because that's what you think society wants it'll fuck it up. Second thing is quasi tricks us hard, you have to pay real attention to what's ignored and PoLR. Under the right circumstances you can accidentally 'dualize" a conflictor, that will fuck you up way harder than anything a dual will do, Especially in situations where you end up using your demonstrative a lot and it pulls them in and you think it was your lead, I learned that hard when I thought I found a dual and poured a lot of effort into it, even though her creative seemed a little hidden, it worked amazing for 2 months, then it slowly clusterfucked into hardcore pain as we shortened each other's fuses.
    @Maritsa I'm thinking you probably found an SLE, and did the same horrid thing I did and poured lots of resources in only to get hurt.
    I'm very sure that both the previous person and my current boyfriend are LSE. They are both Ej temperament and not Ep. I can tell the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    Ah you hit the mark there. That happens. This is all I can say. I'm avoiding a dual I had something with 3 years ago and now I moved to her city. She also avoids me but keeps in touch. It's a strange almost telepathic relation. She's EII so she's very, very dangerous... I think only duals can REALLY mess up our emotional selves to a degree of feeling suicidal. This is dangerous but if you don't give it a try you may miss the brightest jewel of your life.

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    There have been lots of SLE's that I've avoided, simply for douchebaggery alone.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Whenever I think of a SLE, I can't help but think of a fist-pumping guido with too much hair gel.

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    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person.

    There could be several reasons why your dual is ignoring you.
    1. As you said, maybe she thinks you are a horrible person. Not every Dual pair is equally fortunate. Many of the IEI's seem to not like the thought of their duals. I actually introduced an SLE to an IEI woman whom I like a lot but who doesn't feel anything for me, and she didn't feel anything for him, either. The guy she did like was her conflictor. At least until he dumped her.
    Keep in mind that your type tends to catastrophize and always seems to look for reasons why people don't like them, even when you are very likable. You can avoid this by just asking her if she wants to do something fun (like go to some unusual restaurant you know) and then your best strategy is to just be yourself. Talk about Ni possibilities. That should get her attention. She probably won't like you that much at first, but she will probably want to do more, similarly interesting and active things with you, if you suggest it. Use your imagination.
    2. Again, as you said, maybe she's alarmed about the connection you have, and is afraid of feeling her feelings. It could happen, although that seems very unlikely, given the nature of the one SEE I know. She's totally comfortable with her feelings, whatever they happen to be.
    3. Maybe she doesn't know anything about Socionics, and is judging you instead solely on the way society judges you, or the way that her non-Gamma friends might see you, and she is not experienced or self-confident enough to see the good parts. Good luck with that.
    4. Maybe she is not dualized, and attraction is just a matter of time. Stratiyevskaya says it takes a long time for your two types to dualize. I am a type that dualizes quickly, and it still took many, many months of frequent and regular contact for me to notice a woman who was my dual. She actually seemed invisible to me for a long time, probably because there was not enough friction in our interactions to cause my public persona weapons systems to kick into gear. Then she said a few Fi things to me, and instantly got my full attention. A black-and-white pencil sketch became a brilliant, multi-colored painting.
    5. Maybe she likes you but is avoiding you because she has decided that your respective “numbers” don't add up to the same number. In other words, an old, short bald guy can pair with a young, tall, beautiful blonde babe, but only if he has something else that raises his numbers. If he doesn't, well, there are other duals out there.
    6. I'm actually not exactly ignoring, but definitely keeping things cool with, a woman who is my dual, but not because I don't like her. I do like her. A lot. But there is too great a difference in our ages, and I don't want to do anything stupid, and not doing something stupid is easier if we are not that close.
    7. Maybe she's not ignoring you on purpose, but just out of not being interested in you. In that case, you might want to look up the term “limerance”.
    8. Finally, and worst of all, she might be Avoidant. There are people who form Secure attachments, people who form Anxious attachments, and there are Avoidants. If she is avoidant, you need to use a four-letter word with her. That word is “Next!”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Whenever I think of a SLE, I can't help but think of a fist-pumping guido with too much hair gel.
    how do you know that's not just some Se HA type...

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    is this ILI emo talk.

    I avoid my duals when they're assholes, sure.

    for your situation you have to provide more context ... SEE might just switch on and off out of boredom with pretty much everyone. Part of Ep with Fi leverage at hand to "maneuver" the relationship and play with distance. Depends on how the ignoring goes.
    Last edited by Amber; 04-27-2015 at 02:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post

    I avoid my duals when they're assholes, sure.
    Wait a minute. For the past year, ever since I have been looking into personality types, whenever I did a Google search on ENTJ's, the word "asshole" always came up. It's like we are the archetype for assholes. Does this mean you don't like any LIE's?

    Personally, I've found that ESI's are generally bulletproof against assholeism. Otherwise, how could they be our Duals?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    Wait a minute. For the past year, ever since I have been looking into personality types, whenever I did a Google search on ENTJ's, the word "asshole" always came up. It's like we are the archetype for assholes. Does this mean you don't like any LIE's?

    Personally, I've found that ESI's are generally bulletproof against assholeism. Otherwise, how could they be our Duals?
    I didn't mean to generalize. Problems only come up with LIEs when they do behave in an ethically unsound way (that's what asshole means ...I don't know why you made that distinction in another thread). I like their direct and sometimes confrontational style unconcerned about people-pleasing ... but sometimes they make mistakes in being overly selfish, offensive, or trivializing people's individual opinions or feelings. If you want a concrete example on here ...there was a thread in Delta in which a Te dom was complaining about EII "crazy" behavior.
    My father is LIE and I dated a LIE briefly. I would call neither an asshole. In responding to the Q in the OP I explained what would would make me avoid duals. People's quality is often NTR ..a positive socionics intertype doesn't guarantee you like everyone as a person or attraction between ppl.
    Last edited by Amber; 04-27-2015 at 11:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    In responding to the Q in the OP I explained what would would make me avoid duals. People's quality is often NTR ..a positive socionics intertype doesn't guarantee you like everyone as a person or attraction between ppl.
    OK, I see that. My experience with Duals is limited. I think I've only identified four Duals in my personal life, and the one I like least is a great guy, incredibly smart, an asset to any organization, just terrific. They go up from there. I guess I just have a different definition of what it means to be an asshole.


    With respect to behaving in an ethically unsound way, my conformance to the law is case-specific (because laws are malleable), but I consider my ethics to be excellent. I'm kind to small animals, believe in helping those who can't help themselves, in protecting the weak, and never hurting people who aren't hurting someone else. Nevertheless, my default mode is being an asshole. Here is an example.


    My SLI ex-wife and I were in a nice restaurant to discuss finances. I chose a public place to ensure that things would remain reasonably pleasant, but there was considerable tension and some barely repressed anger and resentment between us. We had made it through forty-five minutes of the meal without an argument and were working our way through the Creme Brulee when a middle-aged guy with a bad haircut, wearing a checked shirt, jeans, and tennis shoes, approached our table, looked at our food, and said “That looks good.”

    I glanced at him, looked down at the dessert, said “It is.”, looked back up at him and pushed the dish toward him and asked, “Would you like some?”
    The guy turned red, staggered back, and moved away, and I realized he was the Maitre D'. I turned back to my ex-wife, who was looking at me with an expression that said, “Yep. That's the asshole.” My excuse for my behavior was that he caught me at a bad time, intruded into my space when my ex-wife was already doing her subtle full-on attack, and I just needed to get rid of him in the most expeditious way possible, regardless of who he was.


    So, unconcerned about people-pleasing? Yes.
    Trivializing people's feelings? Yes.
    Offensive? Yes.
    But unethical? No. Never that.

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    I have avoided my duals like the plague, and often still do. I can't deal with the arrogance or being bulldozed. It seems like some of them literally don't care what anyone else thinks and just want validation for their own opinions, which are usually selfish and incredibly self-promoting. Getting them to acknowledge that there are other sides to an issue which may be just as valid as their own is like pulling teeth. I hate that "different" is often seen by them as "weaker." Also, I don't always feel like babying their Ni-polr.
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    First of, make sure you both are correctly typed. This seems like a no-brainer, but there are people out there who end up believing their conflictor is their dual, and this usually ends in a messy situation.

    Secondly, I'll just quote Gulenko here, because I find he indirectly answers why many people tend to avoid their dual:

    But is a dual appreciated right away? No, from a distance a dual isn't appealing. This type of relation develops only within close distances, only then you begin to appreciate your dual. If you've run into trouble and your dual has helped you, you sense he can provide help further on. Until you sense that returning energy, that he/she is off-loading problems from your shoulders, duals are usually not appreciated. That's why dual appeals the most when you're facing difficulties, but when you're feeling fine, no problems, no depressions, nobody is oppressing or coercing you, you're doing what you like, in this case where are you going to be pulled? Not to your duals, not to your quadra ... but to what will be you attracted?You'll be pulled to you Club http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Club, that is, Humanitarians will be attracted to other Humanitarians [NF to NF]. It's no longer up to your vital deep core values, but your interests and hobbies: "It's interesting for me to spend time with him".

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    I think what you are mentioning here is more of an individual problem, opposed to one many face when thinking of their dual.
    ILI's Hidden Agenda makes them want to finally love someone, but because their Fi is rather weak, they tend to be afraid of doing so at the same time, especially if they are a 6 in the Enneagram.

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    i actually experienced this with an SLE. don't know where to write this but maybe someone has a bit more insight into the SLE psyche than me. i have met that SLE several times and at this point we went probably through all stages of duality (there was some semi-pursuing involved after the first, long stage of awkwardness on his side, not mine.). at some point we became comfortable around each other and talked a lot, so it was strange that he became unresponsive again. i thought it was because he found himself another IEI/Fe source of interest which was around, with whom he initiated a lot of contact, so he didn't t need the old one anymore to get Fe. (maybe as a Fi-polr, or whatever, past development doesn't matter at all if there's something new and shiny, i guess?) and assumed that he put me back into the category of background tapestry of people of no concern. but he also displayed subtle and not so subtle behaviour of actively avoiding me in social contexts even when it made not much sense to do so. *shrug* i found out that he still appreciates me and has a high opinion of me as a person, so it's a bit strange that the dual i got along well in the past thinks it's necessary to avoid me.

    is this Fi-polr or is this the natural progression of duality? rise and fall until nothing's left anymore. or is this completely type unrelated?
    Last edited by lynn; 05-30-2015 at 04:35 PM.

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    Well, I have seen that certain people find their conflictors appealing. An INFj who is so attracted to 4D Te they take it all in with great admiration in any case. Well, they have need to complete things but are quite bad at seeing how etc. Maybe it is I->E as 4D extroverted duality seeking.

    I can see this in ESI but only from distance.

    I have hard time at approaching people in any case and therefore ESEs as activators are much easier.

    The base function might be harder to see through at first glance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lim View Post
    i actually experienced this with an SLE. don't know where to write this but maybe someone has a bit more insight into the SLE psyche than me. i have met that SLE several times and at this point we went probably through all stages of duality (there was some semi-pursuing involved after the first, long stage of awkwardness on his side, not mine.). at some point we became comfortable around each other and talked a lot, so it was strange that he became unresponsive again. i thought it was because he found himself another IEI/Fe source of interest which was around, with whom he initiated a lot of contact, so he didn't t need the old one anymore to get Fe. (maybe as a Fi-polr, or whatever, past development doesn't matter at all if there's something new and shiny, i guess?) and assumed that he put me back into the category of background tapestry of people of no concern. but he also displayed subtle and not so subtle behaviour of actively avoiding me in social contexts even when it made not much sense to do so. *shrug* i found out that he still appreciates me and has a high opinion of me as a person, so it's a bit strange that the dual i got along well in the past thinks it's necessary to avoid me.

    is this Fi-polr or is this the natural progression of duality? rise and fall until nothing's left anymore. or is this completely type unrelated?
    I had this too, like "breaks" in our communication. I think it's because it was pretty scary for him to open up so it took a looooot of time...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lim View Post
    i actually experienced this with an SLE. don't know where to write this but maybe someone has a bit more insight into the SLE psyche than me. i have met that SLE several times and at this point we went probably through all stages of duality (there was some semi-pursuing involved after the first, long stage of awkwardness on his side, not mine.). at some point we became comfortable around each other and talked a lot, so it was strange that he became unresponsive again. i thought it was because he found himself another IEI/Fe source of interest which was around, with whom he initiated a lot of contact, so he didn't t need the old one anymore to get Fe. (maybe as a Fi-polr, or whatever, past development doesn't matter at all if there's something new and shiny, i guess?) and assumed that he put me back into the category of background tapestry of people of no concern. but he also displayed subtle and not so subtle behaviour of actively avoiding me in social contexts even when it made not much sense to do so. *shrug* i found out that he still appreciates me and has a high opinion of me as a person, so it's a bit strange that the dual i got along well in the past thinks it's necessary to avoid me.

    is this Fi-polr or is this the natural progression of duality? rise and fall until nothing's left anymore. or is this completely type unrelated?
    is the new one his gf too or just a friend? I'm assuming you are female

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    @ myst: yes, i'm female. the new one is an aquaintance and not his girlfriend and not likely to become his girlfriend due to outer circumstances. (but he is possibly interested in her. who knows? she's IEI after all.) i don't care about the fact that he found himself something new to chase after (if he finds it exciting), but the fact that he started to avoid me in really simple situations even when the other IEI was not around (such as not really greeting me in the morning or quickly reseating himself when i smile at him and say hello out of politeness) which made me slightly paranoid (like, 'this is not simple disinterest. he must dislike me deeply'.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lim View Post
    @ myst: yes, i'm female. the new one is an aquaintance and not his girlfriend and not likely to become his girlfriend due to outer circumstances. (but he is possibly interested in her. who knows? she's IEI after all.) i don't care about the fact that he found himself something new to chase after (if he finds it exciting), but the fact that he started to avoid me in really simple situations even when the other IEI was not around (such as not really greeting me in the morning or quickly reseating himself when i smile at him and say hello out of politeness) which made me slightly paranoid (like, 'this is not simple disinterest. he must dislike me deeply'.)
    any reason for not asking him directly about this issue? without overcomplicating it, of course

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    ah, no, it doesn't matter at this point. i won't see him anyway in the (near) future anymore and we ended on somewhat friendly terms. it just started to bother me a bit, because if that's a usual pattern in SLE's then i have to think twice whether i would want to be friends with them in the future or invest any energy in them. if there are other more complex reasons why he was socially withdrawn and guarded, and i just picked up the negative vibes (as his dual oversensitive to the atmosphere), then i understand the situation better and don't have to take it personally. (there were issues and problems unrelated to me.) but i don't want to give him the benefit of doubt when the reason might be just very banal: SLE found something new, so he starts to resent the old one for no reason, or whatever. well, who knows ... if there are even problems in communication with SLE's when duality is working well, as velvet said, then maybe these are just things one has to deal with and not take too personally, i guess. and if it's not type related/or just a very specific situation then i don't have any problem getting sucked into the orbit of an SLE who crosses my path in the future again ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lim View Post
    ah, no, it doesn't matter at this point. i won't see him anyway in the (near) future anymore and we ended on somewhat friendly terms. it just started to bother me a bit, because if that's a usual pattern in SLE's then i have to think twice whether i would want to be friends with them in the future or invest any energy in them. if there are other more complex reasons why he was socially withdrawn and guarded, and i just picked up the negative vibes (as his dual oversensitive to the atmosphere), then i understand the situation better and don't have to take it personally. (there were issues and problems unrelated to me.) but i don't want to give him the benefit of doubt when the reason might be just very banal: SLE found something new, so he starts to resent the old one for no reason, or whatever. well, who knows ... if there are even problems in communication with SLE's when duality is working well, as velvet said, then maybe these are just things one has to deal with and not take too personally, i guess. and if it's not type related/or just a very specific situation then i don't have any problem getting sucked into the orbit of an SLE who crosses my path in the future again ..
    heh I think you are overworrying this yeah, have fun getting sucked into that orbit..

    btw, don't overidealize duality, there will be conflicts but they are resolvable is the point, actually I even read there's more conflict in duality than in mirage relations and this is good because it does allow for some spice and chance for improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emmym View Post
    I have avoided my duals like the plague, and often still do. I can't deal with the arrogance or being bulldozed. It seems like some of them literally don't care what anyone else thinks and just want validation for their own opinions, which are usually selfish and incredibly self-promoting. Getting them to acknowledge that there are other sides to an issue which may be just as valid as their own is like pulling teeth. I hate that "different" is often seen by them as "weaker." Also, I don't always feel like babying their Ni-polr.
    lol

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    I love my duals. I will patiently engage them, teach them, guide them as they guide me in various ways. Though we don't listen to each other and hiss under our breaths it is ultimately love that unites people and patience. Love and patience. Commitment and forgiveness too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    I'm in a relationship with an ILI.

    When we first got together, I knew that if I went down the romance road with him, it was going to be a REAL thing. I had to shut down all my other options. So, if your SEE is not ready for the real thing, yes, I can see her ignoring you.
    I'm just an effin ray of sunshine

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    Quote Originally Posted by seanps3 View Post
    Can people sometimes ignore their dual because they're afraid of how palpable their feelings are? Some of us have never really experienced what it's like to be close to someone who seems to understand us and let us be ourselves. When we finally experience that feeling, it's completely new to us,which can be scary. Some people might be afraid of making themselves too vulnerable or afraid of getting hurt. Do you think people sometimes are afraid of how free that feeling of being with their dual is? They think that if someone as comfortable as their dual doesn't accept them for who they are, then who will? I think I may have experienced this with one of my duals. She's ignoring me for no apparent reason, and the only reason I can think of why is because she's alarmed or put off by the connection we have. Or maybe she legit thinks I'm a horrible person
    How's everything going Sean?

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    Some people become a trigger for PTSD

    Some people put mean things in your heart

    A lot of other people will care for you and love you

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