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Thread: SEI/ILE: story of a dual couple (ISFp and ENTp)

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    Default SEI/ILE: story of a dual couple (ISFp and ENTp)

    One of the few SEI/ILE duality stories that have been posted on rus-speaking socionics forums that I thought could be interesting.

    Guessing from this story her type is Si-SEI so/sp while his type is Ne-ILE sp-first. Most of their differences and misunderstandings seems to happen along the Si/Ne axis, as well as soc vs. sp primary. Link to the original thread.

    ++added: see also Duality observations




    "We, Anna and Sergei, want to thank the administration of the site "Ideal"* for giving us an opportunity to meet one another, and for all the contributions and work that is being done here in discussing and popularizing socionics. Personally, I can't imagine where else a somewhat reclusive, socially isolated teacher of type ILE and a disheveled, constantly at the theaters SEI could meet one another - only on the Internet!
    [*This site "Ideal" is part of a larger socionik.com website that consists of several socionics and hobbyist discussion forums and a dating website, where members can post their profiles.]

    There aren't too many stories written by dual couples, so in these posts I would like to share our experience and tell a bit of my impressions. It is very much true that, when people feel happy and fulfilled, they don't linger much on internet forums. My ILE, for example, has deleted his profile on this website after we’ve met. Once someone has gained a good understanding of Socionics, they also don't actively participate in online discussions and typings. Due to this, for the remaining forum visitors it becomes very difficult to believe that there are actually happy dual couples out there and that successful dualization stories do occur.

    For those who want to learn more about socionics, I would recommend to not get stuck on forums discussing the value of intertype relations, but to take a course in Socionics and study the theory thoroughly and in depth – then everything will become clear. Back to our story, I can say that even though I have studied socionics in depth, including the theory of duality, I was completely unprepared for the reality of dual relations. That is, my expectations of ILEs that were based on my reading didn't quite match my reality of experiences with them ))

    We first got in contact when I started looking for my ILE duals on this website. One day I sent this ILE poster a message, to which he replied with the following: "Hi! Let's become acquainted?" - for which he was immediately subjected to a detailed criticism: "Where is your intuition of possibilities?" – I wrote in my reply – "Was there no other, more original and interesting way to respond?" To which he replied that he used to write interesting emails, but then he has gotten tired of writing "into the void" and stopped trying to be original. Here you have the first example of mismatch in the expectations.

    After a very ordinary correspondence, as is typical of Don Quixotes, he has disappeared for 2 months. To anyone who is dating an extrovert, I recommend to take this calmly and apply some efforts into catching them yourself. I started looking for him because I brazenly wanted to use him on the aspect of Te, that is, ask him to help organize my trip to Yaroslavl (a city where he was from) – to pick me up at the airport, recommend some place where I could stay, and so on.

    On our very first meeting, I absolutely did not like him. He arrived half an hour late and was dressed terribly (my recommendation to all sensing types is to not pay attention to such minor things – later you can dress them to your taste )) He talked of some total nonsense, as it seemed to me at that time (in general, extroverts strike the introverts to be rather superficial people). On top of that, driving me in his car to Himki he got lost and we spent half the night trying to find the way. (Here all my notions of logical types fell apart: I used to think that they are so very thoughtful and judicious, but it seems this doesn't apply to extroverted logicals: these types act first and think later, especially irrational types: ILE and SLE).

    In summary, for about two months we had very little contact. He was constantly disappearing somewhere, but would re-appear when I turned to him with requests* : to give me a ride, to help transport furniture from friend’s place (I was in process of moving back then) - and he has always agreed to help. (This is a special characteristic of ILEs – helping everyone despite their personal relation to them.) All this time I felt zero physical attraction towards him. But next to him it was always calming ... When we talked I rarely understood him, and he rarely understood me. I couldn't understand what the purpose of his hanging around me was, when it was clear that nothing will happen between us. But he would stubbornly appear next to me again. He helped me with the documents for my dissertation, lent me his notebook computer for almost constant use, let me borrow some money when I needed it. Then we started going out to cafes together. He always paid for me and never tried to penny-pinch on anything. This has amazed me, to be honest, because I’d fight for a single penny.
    [*translator's note: The is a pretty good way for a "strategic" type, such as SEI, to capture the attention of a "tactical" type, such as ILE, to imply a plan that needs actuating and ask for their help.]

    I used to think that intuition of possibilities should show itself by manner of ILEs showing their “brightness”: telling jokes and anecdotes, often preparing some surprises, always thinking and saying something original and new. It was nothing like that. They could sit in front of you and say nothing at all (as ethics is their painful function) until you prod them yourself and get their base function moving. This is one way in which ILEs are cardinally different from LIIs who tell jokes and make puns more frequently.

    In general, ILE painful function has two ways of manifesting itself: one way - total silence and absence of personal connections with people; and second contrasting way - a large circle of acquaintances and friends and complete tactlessness. My ILE's painful function was of the first variety. Our conversations at first consisted almost fully of my own monologues. This was terribly unbalancing for me - I couldn't understand his silence, tried to shake him up somehow, even cursed at him …

    From the point of view of socionics theory, all that happened in our relations was accurate but exactly the reverse. I took him around with me to various places and asked him questions like: "Why don't you know if there are any new plays stages at the theaters?* Why don't you know of any interesting placed that we can visit? You're the extraverted intuitive type after all!” To which he replied: "I had no one to attend these events with, thus I never had an interest." The above is an example of how the vulnerable function suppresses the leading one. The same thing was true for me – he took me out to different cafes, treated me to various desserts and dishes, and asked me: "Why don't you know how to cook yourself?" I told him: "I don't have enough money to buy normal products and to afford the kitchenware and appliances."
    [*Going to a theater to a watch a play is a common and popular Russian evening pastime.]

    Despite all my knowledge and previous romances with logical intuitive types (mostly my activity partners), I couldn't get used to many ILE quirks for a long time. I got angry, doubted why do I need this relationships at all, fought with him, demanded explanations, tried to change him … It was only after strong friendship developed between us that I decided to take it further to physical relations. Passion and love, in the usual sense of these words, were absent from our relationship. There was only a calm certainty and a feeling that we could communicate forever, that neither us will get bored or tired, that this will continue in any format. With dual it is interesting to do housework together, and to have sex, and to create something original together – in summary any process starts easily and continues indefinitely. And even when we separated for three weeks (I left for a vacation) there was a complete sense of his presence with me, but there was no angst or sadness, or any turbulent emotions for that matter.

    I want to emphasize that our dualization progressed very slowly. It was only half a year of constant doubts that I realized that I wanted for this man to always be a part of my life. From there on it was very simple: we moved in together and now we're married. And the more time passes by, the more mutual understanding we develop and the fewer arguments we have.


    About duality and dual relations:

    1. If you have many personal problems, if you are an isolated, conservative individual who doesn’t want to change out of principle, and doesn't know how to communicate with people, then neither your dual, nor your confictor, nor Santa Claus will be able to help you. Duality relations are not a panacea.

    2. Duality is discredited by those who have either never been in dual relations, or have been in them on the level: "We had two cups of coffee. I didn't like him. We went our separate ways". Those who have had real first-hand experience with successful long-term dual relations usually find it difficult to feel fully satisfied in nondual relations after.

    3. Attainment of personal happiness is not predicated by dual relations, but rather by one’s ability to recognize and admit mistakes, to grow as a person and spiritually. And most importantly: an initial wish to create a family and to have a loved one, which is not something that everybody wishes for. Thus some duals part.

    4. It is not true that people can be happy only in dual relations. Don’t think that nondual relations are "bad" and only dual relations are worth it. Yes, I know a pair of intuitive types who keep putting off having children due to the potential burdens, a pair of logical types that lack tenderness and emotional tone in their relationship, a pair of introverts who have "closed in" on one another and insulated themselves. But I couldn't bring myself to say "you need to break up and find yourself a dual" to people who have been living happily together for many years. Several of my relationships with people of nondual types have also been happy, but there was always something missing in them. And only when one gets a chance to contrast and compare these relations to dual experience is when one sees how much one has been deprived of.

    5. Most people aren’t ready for dual relations and do not need them. And there is nothing terrible in this. Successful dualization needs several important "precursors" that aren't present in every case. Duality doesn't captivate and enlighten a person immediately. It needs communication and an opportunity to engage in some collaborative process, some joint activities. Only then does it become evident whether all of this leads to some kind of future development.

    6. For dual relations to happen, you need to stop "showing off" on your weak functions (suggestive and vulnerable). If your PoLR is “logic of actions” (SEI,IEI) and you consider yourself a proficient and well-to-do person in this respect, then duals won't appear in your life. And even if some ILE or SLE appears before you and offers help, material support or advice, you will send him or her far far away because you’ll think of yourself as too competent.

    7. In order for Base-Suggestive information exchange to occur, there needs to be an incredible amount of trust between you. You won't be able to quickly verify the accuracy of the information coming from your dual. Meanwhile, he will be making such “somersaults”, such leaps and comprehensive assessments on his strong functions that it will frighten you, because you aren't used to this.
    For example, one night my ILE texts me this: "Do you want me to come over?" And that's it - my suggestive function falls into stupor – Should take this opportunity and what do I need it for? Why this sudden surprise? What should I make of this? What should I do with it?
    Another example. He asks me one day: "How much money do you need - I could give you some? Pay it back when you're able to." Most of the types with vulnerable Te upon hearing such questions will start to scream and prove with persistence how they are financially sound - so go hell with your money! Then you can say goodbye to duality.
    In dual relations it is very important to provide for the person that in which he or she is weak, and to do so without any snide comments, and to accept your dual's assistance without any feelings of guilt or shame for this. Such feelings will come up. The prickly comments will be on the tip of your tongue every time your dual badly messes up on his or her one-dimensional functions. And when you’ll mess up and this person will be saving you, you will be shaken up by feelings of fear and guilt and your own worthlessness and incompetence. But this how mutual dual help and support occurs.

    8. In dual relationships, people are very “tightly bound” to each other. One consequence of this is that if your dual goes into minus (meaning some crisis or depression), you are likely to descend there, too. Helping him or her to get out of it will be difficult, and you will suffer the same. To “move” one’s dual, somehow affect him, make them snap out of it is impossible. These difficult periods need to be lived through, then duals become closer with one another. Though as I know of some dual pairs, in time of crises the topic of divorce is brought up. The main thing is to understand that it’s a temporary phase.


    Phew, I’ve dumped the fruit of many months of thought in this post! This seems to be all for now. If anyone has any questions ask them here or in pm."
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    Last edited by silke; 09-16-2017 at 03:51 AM. Reason: updated link

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post

    "In general, ILE painful function has two ways of manifesting itself: one way - total silence and absence of personal connections with people; and second contrasting way - a large circle of acquaintances and friends and complete tactlessness."
    This is interesting, i wonder if it corresponds to TI-sub vs Ne-sub. This guy i knew in college, for whom i've been mulling over the ILE type lately (for other reasons), has like 700 facebook friends and is very outgoing... so i guess it's not really atypical for ILEs then. i didn't think he was all that tactless, but English is a 2nd language for him so idk how he was in his native language. He was funny though, joking and pranking in the middle of class (maybe that's considered tactless? idk).
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Silke, thank you for this.

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    tl;dr; over-thinking it; I just do what I normally do and the theory is supposed to take care of the rest.
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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    this whole post was weird for me to read lol

    like, is it just me or does it actually sound like these two people aren't right for each other? (minus the whole duality thing)

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    It's better than people think althrough from a SEI perspective. The lack of physical attraction hindered a fast relationship but communication allowed it to occur.

    She doesn't go to categorical but is more involved with her exact situation but the basics are there I think for good long term relations.

    1. Calm strong friendship.
    2. Poor initial physical attraction but strong eventual mental attraction. AKA TIM to TIM vs any sort of non-informational attraction. Having both is good but longer term is mental.

    Most long term relation studies sort of have the same results.

    I think there some things I've noticed myself such as #6 #7 which occur a lot when people don't understand what can hurt others or make a fool of themselves.

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    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    this whole post was weird for me to read lol

    like, is it just me or does it actually sound like these two people aren't right for each other? (minus the whole duality thing)
    That was my first thought .. ..

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    I get the feeling if you asked the ILE vs the SEI you might get a very different picture of compatibility in the relationship...

    Intuition lol

    I think the sensors are kinda of blind a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    this whole post was weird for me to read lol

    like, is it just me or does it actually sound like these two people aren't right for each other? (minus the whole duality thing)
    I kind of felt like she told the preliminary stages of the relationship in great detail, and kind of skipped over describing how things were once they decided they liked each other romantically. This was basically the extent of it

    Quote Originally Posted by silke
    "I want to emphasize that our dualization progressed very slowly. It was only half a year of constant doubts that I realized that I wanted for this man to always be a part of my life. From there on it was very simple: we moved in together and now we're married. And the more time passes by, the more mutual understanding we develop and the fewer arguments we have."
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I get the feeling if you asked the ILE vs the SEI you might get a very different picture of compatibility in the relationship...

    Intuition lol

    I think the sensors are kinda of blind a bit.
    have you seen how blind intuitives can be to actual circumstances and the things right in front of their face

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    have you seen how blind intuitives can be to actual circumstances and the things right in front of their face
    Sure, I have many examples of that, but sensors tend to see nothing but what's happening infront of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    curious about this - what do you see in her brief story of their premarital period that makes them incompatible?
    as well as @Aylen @Kim @Hotel Transylvania
    It all sounds so painful and awkward. They didn't communicate well at the beginning and seemed constantly confused. There is no honeymoon stage and fun and excitement anywhere, which is a bit saddening.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    It all sounds so painful and awkward. They didn't communicate well at the beginning and seemed constantly confused. There is no honeymoon stage and fun and excitement anywhere, which is a bit saddening.
    I think beginning of relations with a ILE might all be painful....

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I think beginning of relations with a ILE might all be painful....
    No!
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    also she wasn't even vaguely physically attracted to him lol

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    No!
    I don't think for a minute William is ILE but...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    I don't think for a minute William is ILE but...
    He is very clearly not a sensor or an ethical type, but that is less obvious online. I have no vested interest in him being ILE (in terms of intertype relations), but it's the only type that makes sense (I say this as I comfort my battered little PoLR). The differences between you two are easily explained via enneagram.

    In any case, I don't think the above is typical of ILE dating.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    also she wasn't even vaguely physically attracted to him lol
    Sometimes an attraction does sneak up on you? I guess I am used to the "love at first sight" type of relationships but I had a bf, from Nicaragua, who was not really attractive (had a very nice body though) but had that Tony Montana vibe going. He was irresistible to a lot of women and they were hot. When he walked into the room, with a few attractive girls,the guys would be like wtf is this, but then they would end up loving him to (no homo) . We were together for a year and it ended in a really weird way. :/

    There were other factors in the post that felt bland and passionless to me. Maybe it is the instinct stacking...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    He is very clearly not a sensor or an ethical type, but that is less obvious online. I have no vested interest in him being ILE (in terms of intertype relations), but it's the only type that makes sense (I say this as I comfort my battered little PoLR). The differences between you two are easily explained via enneagram.

    In any case, I don't think the above is typical of ILE dating.
    I don't recall seeing any N in his posts which surely must reflect his thought process, but i'll pay more attention next time round.

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    What's off putting in this description is that it seems to describe a lot of awkwardness and very little romance. I think @silke's right in saying it's written from an sx-last perspective.
    There are quite a few good points in this description though.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    What's off putting in this description is that it seems to describe a lot of awkwardness and very little romance. I think @silke's right in saying it's written from an sx-last perspective.
    There are quite a few good points in this description though.
    What it really tells you is how blind to potentiality(others and their own) SEI's are, even concerning relationships which is one of their strong suits.

    I usually know very quickly the potentiality of relations at a high level of accuracy(even if I don't bother to engage or facilitate them), executing them is the hard part.

    I imagine this poor guy, probably trying his best to maintain relations, uncertain about taking initiative, just responding when he had the opportunity to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    curious about this - what do you see in her brief story of their premarital period that makes them incompatible?
    as well as @Aylen @Kim @Hotel Transylvania
    i suspect it's because her summary of their interactions describes all of these communication issues (like how when they talked they didn't understand one another), as well as all of her frustrations, doubt, not liking him at first, being perplexed and baffled, not understanding why he's there, not being attracted to him... basically a lot of problems and apparent dissatisfaction (aside from how he helped her financially and materially)... and then, boom, magical ending:

    I want to emphasize that our dualization progressed very slowly. It was only half a year of constant doubts that I realized that I wanted for this man to always be a part of my life. From there on it was very simple: we moved in together and now we're married. And the more time passes by, the more mutual understanding we develop and the fewer arguments we have.
    she never says why she realized this or how it came about. her tale begins with how they're perfectly married, then she discusses all this rockiness for the brunt of her "post," and ends with a scarlett o'hara moment, before going on to list her duality/dualization pointers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mu4 View Post
    What it really tells you is how blind to potentiality(others and their own) SEI's are, even concerning relationships which is one of their strong suits.
    You do have a point. Imo there is a difference in how types manifest stacking-wise though. I doubt an sx-first SEI would come up with the same description - hesitating whether she/he wants to date the person for half a year. This they'd know sooner. If you'd ask them for a long-time perspective, then they'd struggle, yes. At least the ones I've met so far would.

    I usually know very quickly the potentiality of relations at a high level of accuracy(even if I don't bother to engage or facilitate them), executing them is the hard part.

    I imagine this poor guy, probably trying his best to maintain relations, uncertain about taking initiative, just responding when he had the opportunity to.
    I agree with what you said here.

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    killer wolf lemontrees's Avatar
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    SEI's are really blind to potentialities (this is really true), however not all potentialities serve the SEI's agenda.

    over time I've had to learn to ignore strong Ne that's coming straight from a person or perspective I don't need. it's really easy to get caught up in knee-jerk responding to your suggestive; however the people offering that info often have marked biases.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aisa View Post
    You do have a point. Imo there is a difference in how types manifest stacking-wise though. I doubt an sx-first SEI would come up with the same description - hesitating whether she/he wants to date the person for half a year. This they'd know sooner. If you'd ask them for a long-time perspective, then they'd struggle, yes. At least the ones I've met so far would.


    I agree with what you said here.
    A sx-first SEI might never even try to talk to this individual again either. I'm pretty sure I've skipped over innumerable SEI's due to sx first issues.

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    SEI's are really blind to potentialities (this is really true), however not all potentialities serve the SEI's agenda.

    over time I've had to learn to ignore strong Ne that's coming straight from a person or perspective I don't need. it's really easy to get caught up in knee-jerk responding to your suggestive; however the people offering that info often have marked biases.
    I've noticed similar things with SEI I know. There is a level of discernment that seems to become learned over time, because they (generalizing), do get drawn into dubious claims. Probably a good thing that they are negitavists.
    "If this to end in fire, then we should all burn together. Watch the flames climb higher into the night."

  27. #27

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    nice thread. the replies are pretty comprehensive @silke
    unholy water sanguine addiction

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