Help requested from female INFjs/EIIs

[Airman]

I just went out to meet that INFj whom I had an affair with 3 years ago. Since we're living in the same city now... Well, she was not feeling well and she left me a message but it was too late I had already hit the road to get to her. When I got there our talk was good, and she told me she was feeling bad (stomach) so I indicated some meds for her which would work perfectly in that case. Then today she shows up in my cell messenger messanging me with those trippy things like "why did you go, why didn't you wait for me to call you", but we had previously arranged the meeting so for me it was set. She was all like "it could've been better, don't do that again, call me before you leave home" and she wanted to discuss our meeting yesterday so much I had to cut her (no patience for that, it's past, it's done). What does she want me to do or say, I wonder? I even apologized. Is she insane? Unfortunately most EIIs are so hard to deal with. They have such a strong emphasis on feeling and especially they think too much how things could've been, should've been. Should I just give her up? I'm tired of problems, but I really like this girl.

[Aylen]

It seems you just stirred up old feelings and opened some old wounds by calling her. Understandable that you are going through a breakup with another girl and probably trying to take your mind off of her but is it fair to this girl to contact her because you are going through something? It might be best to deal with your own stuff now before pulling another girl into it. You still have your last girlfriend in your avatar? Perhaps just let her know you need some time to sort your own feelings. I know you LSE do have feelings.

I am not EII but I am female so I do have a clue .If a guy showed up at my door and I wasn't feeling well I probably would not have answered, which means she probably still cares about you.

Edit: I hope I read your post right. Thanks for explaining the language difference because I do take that into account now, when reading your posts.

[blackburry]

I'm assuming affair means that either (or both) of you are with other people?

[Airman]

First: yes she got my Ni-POLR and hit it hard because I was in such a hurry to meet her ASAP that I didn't even read the msgs that were coming to my phone from about one hour before our meeting to about one hour afterwards. So yes the basic thing she's complaining about is why couldn't I wait? And she's right but with Te leading and Ni POLR, when I set out to do something it has to be ASAP. Actually there's a big pessimistic thought or uncertainty abt the future in me so I try to do things ASAP before anything can screw things up. And it worked, in a sort of not-perfect way, but I got to see her and have a friendly talk. She still cares about me and she's so lovely a person. But Aylen, I'm not just trying to forget my ex-fiancee with her. It's just another story. Actually I always keep a certain number of women 'on the bench' so that I can have them if something goes wrong in a relationship. And of course very few people actually know this, just my close friends. And of course no woman should know it. But I really go to hell for a woman, when it comes to a serious thing, I'm able to sacrifice every tiny bit of my muscle and flesh and money. I don't like to let women down. I think I'm probably naive in that, because some have taken advantage of me due to my willing to self-sacrifice for the loved one. And yes I intend to have a serious relationship with her. I don't care one iota about she not appearing perfect to me because I know her all too well, and she's beautiful even if she falls into a pit full of excrement. That's about how far my feeling for her goes. Thank you three for the help here.

edit: @blackburry No, at the time we were single. We had a short relationship because she was living in Sao Paulo and I was living in Rio de Janeiro, so we met here, spent some nights together and I had to go back to Rio. It's about 500km away so it's not an easy drive, you must take a plane from one city to another. And at the time, she did seem to be untrustworthy for me. But maybe I just didn't understand her.

[Beautiful sky]

Sounds like SEE mobilizing others to their own end and means

[blackburry]

Sounds like SEE mobilizing others to their own end and means

Lol.

[lemontrees]

is she the girl in your profile pic?

[Aylen]

But Aylen, I'm not just trying to forget my ex-fiancee with her. It's just another story. Actually I always keep a certain number of women 'on the bench' so that I can have them if something goes wrong in a relationship.

If I knew that the person I was with did that it would definitely be over. I could never trust their feelings. I guess it is best to keep those ideas to oneself, and I am no saint in this area, but the thought makes me sad. Like seriously, you always do this? I mean it is one thing to have female friends but to consciously have women on the bench just in case... I guess I don't understand this mentality since I can't even think of another, in that way, when I am really into someone. Other than that, I hope you two end up happy together, if that is what you really want.

is she the girl in your profile pic?

I believe he said that is his ex-fiancee.

[Amber]

Actually I always keep a certain number of women 'on the bench' so that I can have them if something goes wrong in a relationship. And of course very few people actually know this, just my close friends. And of course no woman should know it. But I really go to hell for a woman, when it comes to a serious thing, I'm able to sacrifice every tiny bit of my muscle and flesh and money. I don't like to let women down. I think I'm probably naive in that, because some have taken advantage of me due to my willing to self-sacrifice for the loved one. And yes I intend to have a serious relationship with her. I don't care one iota about she not appearing perfect to me because I know her all too well, and she's beautiful even if she falls into a pit full of excrement.

this was awesome.

so you're saying you're stringing several women along until they fall in pits of excrement and then you can see which one stays more beautiful and is worth having a relationship with. or do you push them yourself .

[Aylen]

this was awesome.

so you're saying you're stringing several women along until they fall in pits of excrement and then you can see which one stays more beautiful and is worth having a relationship with. or do you push them yourself .

Ewww, the imagery!

[darya]

Actually I always keep a certain number of women 'on the bench' so that I can have them if something goes wrong in a relationship. And of course very few people actually know this, just my close friends. And of course no woman should know it. But I really go to hell for a woman, when it comes to a serious thing, I'm able to sacrifice every tiny bit of my muscle and flesh and money. I don't like to let women down. I think I'm probably naive in that, because some have taken advantage of me due to my willing to self-sacrifice for the loved one.

Wow you are such a naive romantic. When you will really love someone you won't keep women on the bench. Gross.

[Airman]

By 'keeping on the bench' I mean not getting totally out of touch with a woman. I think you haven't considered cultural aspects here. If you were in Brazil you would see how crazy this society is. Everyone keeps people on the bench. People are very much hot-blooded, sex and relationships are a kind of must-have in this culture. Perhaps in the USA and Europe people put money as the first thing in their lives - money and job. Here money and job are secondary to sex, simple as that. It's a very promiscuous country. I've been dumped by women who kept men 'on the bench'. Usually of course the women only tell this to their trusted female friends and men do the same. It's a promiscuous, non-monogamous country. You are living in different cultures with some strong values regarding sex and relationships, values that I admire very much and would like to have them here, but it's impossible to change the culture you're in. It's like trying to install this crazy promiscuous sex-oriented culture in the USA, it cannot work. I have to be realistic regarding where I am. Like the saying goes, 'when in Rome, do as the Romans'. It's not something apart from my culture that me, the devilish minded sick person, am doing. It's how this culture works, I'm just following the pattern. It's an infantile country, a flerting culture. Relationships can be serious and work, but most people below 40 are just into this overall promiscuity.

[Aylen]

By 'keeping on the bench' I mean not getting totally out of touch with a woman. I think you haven't considered cultural aspects here. If you were in Brazil you would see how crazy this society is. Everyone keeps people on the bench. People are very much hot-blooded, sex and relationships are a kind of must-have in this culture. Perhaps in the USA and Europe people put money as the first thing in their lives - money and job. Here money and job are secondary to sex, simple as that. It's a very promiscuous country. I've been dumped by women who kept men 'on the bench'. Usually of course the women only tell this to their trusted female friends and men do the same. It's a promiscuous, non-monogamous country. You are living in different cultures with some strong values regarding sex and relationships, values that I admire very much and would like to have them here, but it's impossible to change the culture you're in. It's like trying to install this crazy promiscuous sex-oriented culture in the USA, it cannot work. I have to be realistic regarding where I am. Like the saying goes, 'when in Rome, do as the Romans'. It's not something apart from my culture that me, the devilish minded sick person, am doing. It's how this culture works, I'm just following the pattern. It's an infantile country, a flerting culture. Relationships can be serious and work, but most people below 40 are just into this overall promiscuity.

I put relationships first, not sex, but I think I get what you are trying to say. It is possible all the women in this thread who responded felt a bit offended because they also put a relationship first and not money. I am not sure if it is a cultural thing or not to keep people on the bench but if you say so.

Edit: for me being promiscuous and non-monogamous was more of a phase than a lifestyle but the US is full of promiscuous, non-monogamous people too.

[Airman]

Sounds like SEE mobilizing others to their own end and means

So now I'm SEE? I cannot see myself as SEE, seriously. I've a good friend who's SEE. He has a similar pattern regarding women but he doesn't get as involved as I do. SEEs in general seem to have less attachment to someone, and more attachment to sex. For me the relationship comes first, sex is natural development of that.

[darya]

By 'keeping on the bench' I mean not getting totally out of touch with a woman. I think you haven't considered cultural aspects here. If you were in Brazil you would see how crazy this society is. Everyone keeps people on the bench. People are very much hot-blooded, sex and relationships are a kind of must-have in this culture. Perhaps in the USA and Europe people put money as the first thing in their lives - money and job. Here money and job are secondary to sex, simple as that. It's a very promiscuous country. I've been dumped by women who kept men 'on the bench'. Usually of course the women only tell this to their trusted female friends and men do the same. It's a promiscuous, non-monogamous country. You are living in different cultures with some strong values regarding sex and relationships, values that I admire very much and would like to have them here, but it's impossible to change the culture you're in. It's like trying to install this crazy promiscuous sex-oriented culture in the USA, it cannot work. I have to be realistic regarding where I am. Like the saying goes, 'when in Rome, do as the Romans'. It's not something apart from my culture that me, the devilish minded sick person, am doing. It's how this culture works, I'm just following the pattern. It's an infantile country, a flerting culture. Relationships can be serious and work, but most people below 40 are just into this overall promiscuity.

Where was I talking about money and jobs, I was talking about love. My values are not particularly strong and I am familiar with Brazilian culture. What bothered me was not you cheating or whatever, but you presenting yourself as head over heels in love with this woman, worshipping the ground she walks on, but keeping other women on the bench at the same time. That just doesn’t go together. It’s one thing cheating after boredom sets in and the love is gone or impulsively in the minute of passion, it’s the calculating approach to this issue that bothers me. How can you love someone and then rationally make a stock of other women for when they’re gone. Just say you’re an asshole and be done with it, no need to present yourself as a naïve romantic.

[marooned]

i don't know, i think maybe you could try to accept that this is how she is? she's emotional, and frets, and has feelings and worries, and communicates about them with people. i think that i've finally learned that if my emotions are a "problem" to someone else then i just need to disconnect from that person. unfortunately, once i'm attached, disconnecting is incredibly difficult for me, and i only become increasingly imbalanced (which is good because it will eventually drive the other person to do the disconnecting which will free me, but bad because it's the most destructive/damaging way to do it for everyone involved).

i see this problem a lot with women and men, where to me the woman seems "normal" in the sense that i understand being very emotional especially in relationships; but the man seems closed off to feelings and unempathetic, or has "situational empathy." i don't really understand this barrier. but i know now that i have high empathy demands of the other person (or at least need high tolerance of emotion, if not direct empathy), and i just have to accept that. (and it goes both ways really, as i have high tolerance for the other person's emotions in a close relationship.)

oddly, an indicator of how tolerant someone will be of me is how tolerant they are of animals, particularly "difficult ones" or "pests," like cats, rodents, urban birds, so on. are dogs too needy? well, then perhaps you would find i'll be too needy. are cats too bitchy and aloof and you want to show them who's boss or kick them? well, then you'll probably be mean to me. do you react aggressively to defenseless animals and say they're "pests" or "jerks"? well, then you have low empathy. are you unwilling to adapt to animals in your environment and immediately resort to trying to kill them to get rid of the problem? well, then you are more heartless than i. (this is because i am actually an animal.)

i don't mean you, as in OP. i was trying to reword it out of the 2nd person, but anyway, i have issues obviously. i guess, in short what i mean is that some people are probably emotionally incompatible. and maybe that's overlooked sometimes because it's easy to focus on things like intellectual compatibility.

[darya]

So now I'm SEE? I cannot see myself as SEE, seriously. I've a good friend who's SEE. He has a similar pattern regarding women but he doesn't get as involved as I do. SEEs in general seem to have less attachment to someone, and more attachment to sex. For me the relationship comes first, sex is natural development of that.

You’re Delta ST, probably LSE and not because I’m currently in conflict with you . Btw, Brazilian culture always seemed ideal to me (not as in keeping people on the bench ).

[lemontrees]

It's like trying to install this crazy promiscuous sex-oriented culture in the USA, it cannot work.

^lolol


i admire the amount of dramatic flair that all of airman's posts have.

[Aylen]

So now I'm SEE? I cannot see myself as SEE, seriously. I've a good friend who's SEE. He has a similar pattern regarding women but he doesn't get as involved as I do. SEEs in general seem to have less attachment to someone, and more attachment to sex. For me the relationship comes first, sex is natural development of that.

I don't have many SEE in my life to know whether or not they are more attached to sex but I don't see you are SEE. Although with her typing ,you never know, she might have been talking about the girl being SEE?

[Amber]

I would say LSE by other posts/signs ... but the way he seems to "adhere" to "cultural standards" instead of personal values sounds so FeSi ....

[darya]

^lolol


i admire the amount of dramatic flair that all of airman's posts have.

A Brazilian SLI is probably more dramatic than Norweigan EIE


Oh, and one more thing: if it’s an open or poly relationship, that’s fair game then. Seems like she wasn’t notified though lol.

[Aylen]

I don't really see what's wrong with what he said about benching girls, which I find to be a funny term. Not all cultures or people in general have the same attitudes towards love as the traditional romantic ideal. For those not strictly religious Brazil tends toward the polyamorous, non-monogamous side of things. I myself tend to be in the middle between the two, sometimes I want a bunch of partners, other times only one.

It's the idea that he is already preparing a future with another woman in case it doesn't work out. To me it feels like not giving your all to the relationship if you got your eye on a consolation prize already. :/ If someone is polyamorous it's fine, I tried it before but it didn't work for me. Usually that involves letting others know you are into multiple people and everyone agrees.

It would just bother me to think that someone I love and/or giving my all to was thinking about who he will go for next, if we don't work out, right from the beginning. I guess I want someone to feel as intimately obsessed by me as I am by them, so there is no room for thoughts of whose next. Maybe it is because I am an optimist I don't go into relationships focusing on what comes after they leave me or I leave them. Even if I don't foresee it working out long run, due to various reasons,, I will put everything I have into it and try to change the trajectory of the relationship if I am that into them.

For casual relationships what he is doing probably works fine and he has backups in case they just aren't that into him. Maybe if he fell head over heels in love he might even throw away the bench. hah

[darya]

It would just bother me to think that someone I love and/or giving my all to was thinking about who he will go for next, if we don't work out, right from the beginning. I guess I want someone to feel as intimately obsessed by me as I am by them, so there is no room for thoughts of whose next. Maybe it is because I am an optimist I don't go into relationships focusing on what comes after they leave me or I leave them. Even if I don't foresee it working out long run, due to various reasons,, I will put everything I have into it and try to change the trajectory of the relationship if I am that into them.

For casual relationships what he is doing probably works fine and he has backups in case they just aren't that into him. Maybe if he fell head over heels in love he might even throw away the bench. hah

Yes, why even bother being in a commited relationship in the first place, if you’re not seeing that person as ideal and irreplacable at that moment – and no, seeing people as replaceble is not being in love. Then be free as a bird and fly (fuck) around as you wish. Fuck buddies are great solution.

Poly stuff is different, if everybody agrees than great. Don’t really understand the concept though.

[marooned]

i don't know if it's about cherished beliefs... it's the emotional toll of being invested in someone who isn't equally invested in you and then the long heartbreak of having to get over that... it would have saved months to years of suffering to not get started with it in the first place... i mean if i like someone, i like them. there is no one else. there isn't a "back up person" because if there was then i couldn't be into either person, or it would basically mean that. i very rarely am interested in people in this way, and when i am, i tend towards singular devotion. i don't think this is cultural for me, it's just how i work. i used to think i was strictly monogamous, but it's possible that i could work with polyamory, but then that would just be all three of us are devoted to each other and there is no one else. so really, it would end up being the same thing only with two partners instead of one. (definitely more difficult to keep stable, i would think though... and i do have a cultural bias regarding polyamory because i'm a bit reluctant about the idea, as though wondering if it isn't safe, or creepy, or about having an ongoing orgy or... and then it would have to be two men because i just can't feel that way about women. so that would be really strange, and it's the less common arrangement.)

it's a matter of all or nothing. to me it's either all in, or not at all. i want to know if the other person isn't all in because then i can save myself the entire mess and get out while i can.

[darya]

I think that this romantic ideal you speak of isn't culturally universal nor is that interpretation of love.

I agree, it's my personal view of love. But it’s nice if you’re on the same page as your partner about your views of love - if one side thinks they are in a monogamous relationship and the other side is stocking up future candidates, then there’s obviously a problem. The OP is being secretive and leading the girl on, so he’s dishonest. Which is all fine and dandy, just don’t see why he’s describing himself as being crazy over her. You don’t see a person you’re crazy about as easily replaceable or am I missing something

[marooned]

To play the gadfly: I would argue that I often times what has been deeply engrained via culture and the strong affects associated with it is sometimes relabeled as "inherent". The inability or difficulty to change such a thing could simply be a matter of how strongly one has integrated such a belief. Strong feelings do not necessarily equate to that which is innate. There's always a possibility that it could be the contrary of course -- I find weighing such things to be interesting. Either way it shouldn't affect what you want or desire. I'm not against your interpretation of love and what you want out of it,

i suppose in that case, if it feels inherent and is just how one works, then it goes really deep and so it is fine to honor it for one's own well-being. i'm not beyond thinking about this in terms of my conditioning. i wasn't well conditioned socially and so i tend towards wariness of others. i am not a people person. anyone i begin to invest in then, it's really rare, and that person has managed to become really special to me. so it will hurt if it turns out i was just a fling or a game or an experiment, or whatever. i find this more likely an explanation for me than my culture. it's kind of like the stray cat who you feed who comes to bond closely to you but runs from everyone else, not trusting them (this was a cat that wasn't socialized to be around multiple people or who was handled less during its formative years as a kitten) as opposed to the cat who knows how to approach virtually anyone with its tale up and says "feed me, pet me, do my bidding" with confidence (obviously a very socialized cat).

i think maybe though this is also just about how serious one is about these relationships. some people have a more casual style with these things, or are less intensely/singularly focused on them? also, i've recently grown beyond my 20s phase of "ROMANTIC LOVE IS EVERYTHING!111!!!!" so i'm not sure what that will bring in future experiences. this change has come with age and with the loss of girlish ideals (which may well have been culturally based). i don't really currently consider myself to have romantic ideals these days. mainly i'm no longer willing to compromise my emotional well-being.

more the imposition of judgement onto others -- which you weren't doing of course.

sarcasm?

[darya]

Totally -- communication is key And you sound like you go madly in love lol

I do. Not often, but when I do I do. And there's nothing shittier than someone just replacing you if you thought you're in it together. I'm talking about relationships here, not just random one-sided fantasies. I've problems with being vulnerable as it is, so being very open with someone in a supposedly commited relationship and them just lining up others just breaks my heart.

Is he? I thought he wasn't in committed relationship yet with her? Maybe I need to reread.

Isn't he lol? I need to re-read, I might have taken things a bit personally : )

[marooned]

Despite poor socialization and an introverted disposition your conditioning in terms of these concepts and constructs does not occur in a vacuum.

I would wonder if a particular wariness of the Other is in part what characterizes the underlying nature of the romantic ideal of love. That is, the alienating emphasis on individuality characteristic of Euro-American attitudes propels the desire for intimacy found in romantic love. Eh mere speculation though.

well, that is a very philosophical/sociological question. i think i understand more now what you mean by "cultural." and to it i say, reasonable. i have no argument with this.

[darya]

I think the way I interpreted what he was saying was that his relationships rarely begin as serious in the high minded romantic sense and so he maintains contact with other girls in case shit goes awry. I don't see much wrong with that if you're not the type who enters into a relationship out of a passionate and romantic impulse. Only when the relationship becomes serious does he give it his all. I'm not sure how the bench girls come into play after that. That's my general impression.

Actually I always keep a certain number of women 'on the bench' so that I can have them if something goes wrong in a relationship. And of course very few people actually know this, just my close friends. And of course no woman should know it. But I really go to hell for a woman, when it comes to a serious thing, I'm able to sacrifice every tiny bit of my muscle and flesh and money. I don't like to let women down. I think I'm probably naive in that, because some have taken advantage of me due to my willing to self-sacrifice for the loved one. And yes I intend to have a serious relationship with her. I don't care one iota about she not appearing perfect to me because I know her all too well, and she's beautiful even if she falls into a pit full of excrement. That's about how far my feeling for her goes.

I remembered – I was merely bitching about obvious disconnect between bolded statements and the underlined, that’s all. And then I got carried away.

[Airman]

Only someone who knows Brazilian women is able to correctly judge this attitude of mine. And yes I do intend to have a serious relationship with her, she's not being fooled in any way. She's very smart for me to try to fool her anyway, she has a very catching antenna of others' motives, EII and E6 are a tough combination when it comes to reading people like a book. Brazilian culture is somewhat fucked up in the sense that women here tend to have an attitude of a Goddess who has to be worshipped, but then you find that in fact the majority is too promiscuous and untrustworthy of any devotion. So this makes the mind of a man here very much like an Aggressor attitude when it comes to women, we have to be always too careful not to end up being exploited and dumped by these would-be Divas. My posts tend to more of an emotional description when I want to describe something because otherwise there's not enough information to deal with. I would type Brazil as ESFj . But myself... lack of Fe is evident in vivo.
@ Amber: I've been to Germany. Don't tell me you didnt inherit German values and adopt them as your own. How much Germans do that! There's a basic stereotype of a German, and German protocols for everything. Don't tell me you rebelled against your own culture and or is able to unattach the German values from yourself. Try living in a very different culture and you will see how much you adopted German values as your own... and now you think they're invented by yourself, which is wrong, because they weren't born neither invented by you. I have a critical look of values, especially Brazilian ones, but I adopt them as my own for the sake of being able to have what is considered a normal life here. I probably would have different values if I were German. So this is not a valid argument for anything.

[Airman]

I think the way I interpreted what he was saying was that his relationships rarely begin as serious in the high minded romantic sense and so he maintains contact with other girls in case shit goes awry. I don't see much wrong with that if you're not the type who enters into a relationship out of a passionate and romantic impulse. Only when the relationship becomes serious does he give it his all. I'm not sure how the bench girls come into play after that. That's my general impression.

You got the exact right impression then. Every statement quoted above of yours is correct.

[Amber]

Airman, I'm not German and I've been living a different culture for over 5 years ...I must confess I don't identify with anything "collective" (from either country) and I could never argue with "national values" to justify my approach to relationships. Don't tell me I sound German in my posts lol ..whatever you think that means.

By your take on this whole thing, now that I live in Berlin I should attend BDSM parties weekly and polyamory + threesomes should be my rule of thumb ..which is not the case.

[Airman]

Airman, I'm not German and I've been living a different culture for over 5 years ...I must confess I don't identify with anything "collective" (from either country) and I could never argue with "national values" to justify my approach to relationships. Don't tell me I sound German in my posts lol ..whatever you think that means.

By your take on this whole thing, now that I live in Berlin I should attend BDSM parties weekly and polyamory + threesomes should be my rule of thumb ..which is not the case.

That shows your self-typing is correct. ESI... You have your own personal values and guard them, my mother is ESI. There's a complicated relationship with the external society in general, a non-adaptation, but on the other hand you often build some good values yourselves although most people won't agree with them. But you have that Se in egoblock so living in a constant fight for you is not a big deal, it's more your own nature. Just thinking about ESIs.

[wacey]

So...you want us to tell you if you like this girl enough to put up with the first stages of your relationship?

Like, what exactly are you having problems with?

[wacey]

Also, what does her and your behaviour have anything to do with your culture? I just see that as a pointless tangent for discussion. Stick with her behaviour and your puzzlement over that.

[wacey]

I don't know exactly what her motivations are. But, when people get upset, whether its in the beginning of your romance together, during, ect, it means that something, something about you, about her history, whatever, matters to her. People don't get upset like that at anytime, over anything, large or small, unless something about what you have together, whether or not thats you, or the way she feels, whatever: that's how much she likes you. Don't look at it like oh this is craziness, cause that's not the point. The point is, she is invested enough even at this stage to get emotionally involved with you to make this little drama. I think what you would have to ask yourself is it she worth it? No point in overanalyzing her behaviour as far as to say that its not the content of what happened, but that she feels strongly enough about you to make her test what you have, or might have together.

People don't become involved like her and do that sort of "game" playing unless they feel they could have something to loss. In this case, that sounds like the something she could loose is you. Don't be a typical macho brazil prick .....and listen to her. Listen to what her desire to have you is telling you. Look past all the little nonsense, not with an apathetic macho attitude, but with some understanding. Who knows how much understanding can change people from crazy to perfect?