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Thread: Critical Examination of ENTp Type Descriptions

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    Default Critical Examination of ENTp Type Descriptions

    I am finding myself reacting to the entp type descriptions. Although all socionics type descriptions are straightforward about weaknesses, strengths are readily identified in type descriptions other than entp. Entp is portrayed as an absent-minded, socially inept, villain.

    There are extremely limited strengths identified both in the entp personality profile and in the dual relationship with isfp profiles. It is as if entp's have hardly any strengths. In the dual relationship profile it is not at all clear how the isfp benefits from this relationship. Entp is cast as a childish dreamer in need of constant parental supervision.

    I can take it on the chin as well as the next guy, but sorry, these descriptions are starting to feel to me to be more than a little negatively slanted.

    My theory is that Augusta was entp and consequently was so very hard on herself. This bleeds through in the socionics theory. I think it's much more negative - and biased - than it needs to be and probably unfairly so.

    This is a concern, because these type descriptions influence people and their decision-making. Not only the self esteem of entp's, but also the stance of other types towards them.
    Entp
    ILE

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    Default Re: Critical Examination of ENTp Type Descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    I can take it on the chin as well as the next guy, but sorry, these descriptions are starting to feel to me to be more than a little negatively slanted.
    You want to get some Fe from your type description?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    This is a concern, because these type descriptions influence people and their decision-making. Not only the self esteem of entp's, but also the stance of other types towards them.
    Very true. All types have their important thing to do in society, so here goes...

    Apologia di ENTP

    The ENTP, seeing primarily the possibilities around him, the ENTP is always filled with a positive attitude and can always find ways to put things in a positive way. The ENTP smile is a light that shines on society.

    The ENTP fully understands the world's power hierarchy and with his actions mocks it and creates space for all creative people everywhere.

    Always pushing people to try new things and giving them ideas and support the ENTP is crucial in restoring the faith people have in themselves and let's people grow to find their own way in life.

    The ENTP will never judge you and never try to make you feel bad.

    The ENTP is satisfied with little and only asks for other's acceptance for his style and actions. Take good care of your ENTPs!

    When the people around the ENTP turn fatalistic and believe something is certain, the ENTP is sure to find another way.

    The ENTP is always above the routine hustle and bustle of society. When others just go with the flow, the ENTP is the one to stop and figure out what's going on and strive for something better.

    The ENTP is a true democrat, a believer in the right of every man and woman to decide his own life's path and thus one of the protectors of humanity itself.

    The ENTP is careful and knows when to back down, to live to fight another day. The title: don quijote is a misnomer. The ENTP is not a fool that fights windmills, that persists with lost causes, the ENTP has a billion causes and will fight for any of them that create results, why should the ENTP stick with something that doesn't work?

    Whatever people think, the ENTP is not out there looking for his own wellfare. Nobody has the right to think them evil, for they are well-meaning and trusting. If they cause trouble it is not because they are bad but on the contrary, because they are too good for the world.

    While many of the types are cast in stone and remain bound to a certain role in life and society, the ENTP is free. The ENTP can truelly change one's ways and become a different person, define oneself. This gives the ENTP more possibilities and ultimately more abilities than most other types possess.

    The ENTP is the society's ultimate beacon of hope and is the defining mirror of society. Truelly, one can only envy all the good god has bestowed upon the noble creature that man calls ENTP.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Heh.

    If that ain't tongue in cheek . . .

    I was serious, although your write up is very funny!!
    Entp
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    Heh.

    If that ain't tongue in cheek . . .

    I was serious, although your write up is very funny!!
    It's all true, what I said. I was perfectly serious. I just don't want other people to believe I was. People would start thinking that I like alphas and where would that lead? :wink:
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    LMAO. Dunno...I got the sense that you were privately being serious.

    I agree with everything you wrote.

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    I used to think that about the type descriptions- its just never good enough. Basically, and I'll admit it all now, I always wanted the type descriptions to say "ENTp is the best type of all of the types" but that's not how the system works, so it isn't going to say it...

    Overall I think the descriptions are all pretty balanced. Depends on your mood when you read them, too. But I do think that the ENTp uncovered was a little lopsided, like with the terms "lateral combinatory thinking", which basically tries to say that the ENTp is somehow unoriginal or something. That's absurd because everything comes out of combining ideas together, thats how thinking works, its making connections. If anything ENTp's make more of these "connections" than any other type. The ENTp is constantly creating.


    So I think that perhaps Sergei Ganin got in an argument with an ENTp and it inspired him to write that while in a fury or something. that's probably why there are so few "uncovered" things on the socionics.com site- just a few whims.

    But the descriptions can't give us the love that we need. Can't let someone else's descriptions tell you who you are.
    So i think smiling eyes is right, you're just looking for more Fe in the descriptions.

    I definitely look for it.

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    I actually have felt and thought the same way, smiling eyes; I think that description was right on personally.

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    Blaze: Do you think that MBTI provides a better ENTp description?

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    For some reason I can't copy and paste. Go to socionics.com and read entp description and you will see that it is almost 100% negative.

    Distinctly unlike any of the other type descriptions

    All I'm saying is what is the reason for this?

    Seriously, I'm not whining . . . I really want to know!
    Entp
    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    Blaze: Do you think that MBTI provides a better ENTp description?
    It is more positive, but their assessment of weaknesses is couched in "diplomatic" verbiage, which some of us here have found insulting.

    Kind of like saying that someone is "different" or "hard to get to know".

    Those phrases really mean weird and hard to get along with.
    Entp
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    Yeah, I did give the description another read, it is sort of offensive if you look at it in the right way. It makes you examine yourself from a negative angle and sort of misses the positives. It seems like its constantly saying "ENTp's are disorganized, badly dressed and random people that do alot of weird things" I don't understand that. I have also noticed that the INTj's have one of the more flattering descriptions anywhere I read, which is sort of funny because there are plenty of bad things that can be said about them as well.

    Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive.

    But the "type description by function" is a bit more pleasant.

    But seriously, wherever I go people always comment on how nice a guy I am and how I communicate well. I always try to be helpful and to make others happy. I appreciate other people and enjoy their company. Yeah, I have trouble with distances, but it isn't like I'm mean or rude. And my clothing doesn't fit that badly, nor do I tend to lose my buttons any more than most people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddles W
    Yeah, I did give the description another read, it is sort of offensive if you look at it in the right way. It makes you examine yourself from a negative angle and sort of misses the positives. It seems like its constantly saying "ENTp's are disorganized, badly dressed and random people that do alot of weird things" I don't understand that. I have also noticed that the INTj's have one of the more flattering descriptions anywhere I read, which is sort of funny because there are plenty of bad things that can be said about them as well.

    Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive.

    But the "type description by function" is a bit more pleasant.

    But seriously, wherever I go people always comment on how nice a guy I am and how I communicate well. I always try to be helpful and to make others happy. I appreciate other people and enjoy their company. Yeah, I have trouble with distances, but it isn't like I'm mean or rude. And my clothing doesn't fit that badly, nor do I tend to lose my buttons any more than most people.
    Ya, my buttons don't come off either, nor am I absentminded in the least. And I don't have an inwardly sloping chin that converts smoothly to my neck.

    I agree with you about the type by function - it's a lot more clear. BTW, I wasn't really at all insulted by entp uncovered for some reason.

    I still say socionics is biased against entps.
    Entp
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    Creepy-Deb

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    How do you think INTjs feel when they read the line "most people do not understand INTJs and try to keep away from them" on socionics.com

    It does seem that the people who started these sites and such were INTj's and ENTps and they may have a tendency to be particularly hard on them when describing them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deb
    How do you think INTjs feel when they read the line "most people do not understand INTJs and try to keep away from them" on socionics.com

    It does seem that the people who started these sites and such were INTj's and ENTps and they may have a tendency to be particularly hard on them when describing them.
    When my intj brother read that line, he bolted from the site and never wanted to talk about it again!

    WTF
    Entp
    ILE

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    I like to think of each type as a superhero endowed with superpowers none of the other types have. And, like the x-men, their combined powers are greater even than the sum of their parts. It's like you get an ENTP and an ESFJ together and it's like "wonder twins powers, activate!" A whole quadra is of course the fantastic four. A socion? Well that's nigh unstoppable. If humans are ever invaded by an alien race we're gonna need a hell of a lot of well-oiled socions running around kicking some major alien booty if you know what I mean. So if you are feeling glum, oh fragile ENTPs, think of your secret hidden powers, and the next time someone pays you a backhanded complement, thank them, and smile knowingly. And hopefully they won't catch the gleam in your eye, or they shall run screaming before you can lay them waste.

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    That is also why the INFp description is skewed I've heard.
    Agreed, the INFP description seems to me the most skewed, almost totally negative...

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deb
    How do you think INTjs feel when they read the line "most people do not understand INTJs and try to keep away from them" on socionics.com

    It does seem that the people who started these sites and such were INTj's and ENTps and they may have a tendency to be particularly hard on them when describing them.
    Actually, I had an old roommate who I know is INTj ... he was difficult for most to understand and alot of people stayed away from him.

    We got along just fine; though, except that we seemed like total opposites taking we had a mirror relationship. Funny thing was that I didn't realize at the time we had a mirror relationship, but we were always asking each other opinions about things and each one of us had something different that seemed to make sense together. It was sort of weird.

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    PTL, where did you here about this skewing? just out of curiosity, seems interesting.

    but i think in the "uncovered" descriptions you can see how they might be motivated by the personal feelings of sergei ganin. They don't really follow a pattern.

    sometimes I wonder if the descriptions are made to break the ENTp's from their insecure ego(super-ego) trips, and they are made to raise the confidence of the less confident types. just a stupid thought, but one i wondered about in the past.

    @blaze
    yeah, the entp uncovered is truthful in alot of ways, im not going to deny that, but it just seems sorta forced. Its a good idea though, and an original one.

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    Well if the INTj description makes some INTj's sad I'll write something for INTj females so maybe they will realize the hidden superpowers that scarecrow is talking about:

    "INTj females are irresistible, intimidating, and good with their hands. The only reason people keep away from them is because they are intimidated by their repressed sexuality, which comes out in the form of being overly flirty."

    INTj's are great, so are ENTp's. they are the most awesomest of the types. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddles W
    yeah, the entp uncovered is truthful in alot of ways, im not going to deny that, but it just seems sorta forced. Its a good idea though, and an original one.
    no, it's bullshit

    Quote Originally Posted by Socionics.com
    So, if an ENTP is friendly and nice to you: a) they want you to like them; b) they also need something else from you.

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    it's quite possible many of you are defining your existence through socionics and need to stop immediately, understanding people isn't categorical

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    it's quite possible many of you are defining your existence through socionics and need to stop immediately, understanding people isn't categorical
    You look thirsty. Would you like a glass of Shut Up?

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    Heh heh.
    Entp
    ILE

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    Hmmz, you got me thinking, I asked my self why does Socionics need those descriotions? The best reason for them, I found out, was that after makeing sure persons type ,the descriptions are the method to make sure if the person finds it self from them.If the hypothetical ILE finds the mach, it propably is one. But I am also thinking that these descriotions ,which are used by socionits ,are much longer and detailed than those, what are translated into Enlish, also I think these can't be compared by those descriotions in the internet as I think that the last ones are taken from the books for avarage user and they are more likly to be just interesting reading.
    Semiotical process

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    Guys, I completely sympathize with you. I feel just the same way about the INTP description. Its not so much that the description is insulting but I feel it misses some important points. I realize this has to do with Ganin and Gulenko being INTJ and quasi indeticals feeling like the other isnt expressing things correctly. I think the INTP description, when I stop focusing on the little details, raises some interesting points, but I would have said them differently. Also there are some points the descriptions dont raise, which I feel they should have in order to make the description more complete.

    It seems the descriptions focus on overly accentuating differences between types without pointing out many of the parallels between the types, especially quasi identicals, comparatives, contraries, and lookalikes, which of course leaves the description incomplete, because if you focus on that which each type has that no other type has, you aerent gonna find much but two or three paragraphs. And to describe a person, three paragraphs is nothing. So its understandable these descriptions leave us wanting to be understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    It seems the descriptions focus on overly accentuating differences between types without pointing out many of the parallels between the types, especially quasi identicals, comparatives, contraries, and lookalikes, which of course leaves the description incomplete, because if you focus on that which each type has that no other type has, you aerent gonna find much but two or three paragraphs. And to describe a person, three paragraphs is nothing. So its understandable these descriptions leave us wanting to be understood.
    Am I really the only one who feels that the whole point of type descriptions is to be able to accurately discriminate between the neighboring types. After all I know what I am like - and I do not need type descriptions to define my own personality. Therefore I neither see the point of a type description that only rephrases the general personality traits I am well aware of, and share with several other types.

    What I am saying is that, in my opinion, the type descriptions should ideally be so good that we could get rid of the tests altogether, and all anyone need to do to figure out their own type would be to just read through all the type descriptions. I am personally somewhat biased against tests as method of determining your type, because when you get your test result it easily creates a completely false sense of confidence. Similarly "playing with the functions" often seems a bit pointless when none of the models of socionics appear to be capable of making any clearly testable predictions, and there does not seem to be any way to tell whether the discoveries made by theoretical analysis are anything more than collective illusions - although what seems a bit futile speculation today may well be gradually converted into objective facts later on....
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    There have been many objective facts derived from observation of socionics in relationships. This is aspect of socionics is largely founded on research and not "futile speculation".

    Whats the point of accentuating differnences between types when everyone is a composite of different traits that cannot be separeted, lest you depersonalize yourself? How would that help you better understand yourself, to single out certain characteristics of a person, and tell him this is who he is? Why not just create another model which singles out other traits of his personality? Then which model would be right?

    People could never figure out their type type description followed your proposition. Lets say I am INTP, and I read the descriptions of both INTP and INTJ, finding characteristics that describe me in both descriptions. How would I know which one I am, since certain INTP traits can be found in INTJ and vicea versa? And then I read ENTP, ISTP, INFP, decriptions and find correlations between all five types?

    How would a type expert single out "the right traits" that an INTP possesses without him knowing what those "specific traits" are in the first place, due to the fact that all the traits are so mixed withing yourself and you dont have an objective image of yourself compared to the general population?

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    That was me above. Let me add that I said type descriptions attempt to radically single out certain traits each person has- that doesnt mean they succed. I identify with most things in the INFP profile as well as the INTP profile, not to mention the ISTP and INTJ profiles. Obviously this radical attempt fails. Which is why tests based on four letter acronym work to determine your type accurately- they work from the top down, focusing on the most general and then accentuating the particulars, as opposed to trying to find your type by reading each description one by one, which work from the bottom up, from complex to simple, which only works if a person knows the complex to begin with. And how could they know they complex details without knowing the simple facts?

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    Yes, I think you are right for the most part - it is probably impossible to write type descriptions that fit people with one type and one type only. And since you cannot objectively compare your own mind and yourself in general to other people, many type descriptions are probably more useful for typing others. This is though one, and in my opinion a valuable function, of many socionics type descriptions, and something that socionics in general seems to accomplish better than MBTI.

    Still I think the four scales are not really well suitable for typing either. They also rely heavily on your own perception of your personality, and the whole concept is far too linear and over-simplified. I think if the functions are "real" - and for socionics to make sense they kind of have to be, we should be able to test the functions directly. How to do this is still hard to say, but maybe in the future... I think the basic concept behind the www.braintypes.com/brain.htm sounds very fascinating, perhaps the types are strongly correlated with the functioning of the brain, and soon typing will be done by brain scans... Then again I have no idea whether the claims of braintypes.com are actually even remotely correct.
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    I agree that the four letter scale is not accurate if you dont have a good perception of yourself, but ultimatly it seems like the easiest means to meet an end. Its much much much easier than testing the functions directly. However perhaps there is a method that we havent yet invented that can test for these functions directly without causing more confusion than comprehension, and which is easier than the four letter scale to determine type. However I have not seen such a method. The four letter scale is linear if thats what you stop at, but most of us dont, and thus we go mucch deeper into the subject. But not everyone will go as deep as we have, not getting past the acronym, and thus their understanding will be as deep as it deserves to be.

  32. #32
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    ENTP description was dead on. I am an ISTP and my brother is an ENTP. They reach a more mature state at around 30 or 40, I look forward to getting along with my brother then...

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    I actually bothered to read SmilingEyes's post and I am impressed. You have a wonderful diction and I enjoy your writing, even though sometimes in seems self-indulgent. Very accurate too; I think the type descriptions should evolve to include two fully fleshed out segments, one possitive like this one, and the other negative. The +/- on socionics is too brief.

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