Seeking more information about enneagram stacking Syn Flow vs. Contra flow

[The Exception]

I've heard Syn Flow vs. Contra Flow stackings discussed now and then. I haven't found a whole lot of in-depth information about it and I'm hoping to learn more.

About all I know is that:

Syn-flow: sp → so → sx → sp
Stackings involved: sp/so → so/sx → sx/sp → sp/so
Direction: Compelled toward people. Acting upon and with others as a born insider i.e.- deeply human.

Contra-flow: sp → sx → so → sp
Stackings involved: sp/sx → sx/so → so/sp → sp/sx
Direction: Compelled against people. Seething belligerent outsiders; 'antisocial', provoking, reverse-flow change catalysts. In some profound sense, rejecting the human condition, their own and/or that of others.


I'm not sure which of these I am. I think I'm sp/so stacking which is syn flow but so/sp is possible, which would be contra flow.

I prefer that there would be no outsiders at all, that everyone would fit in and just get along. I think that's a rather syn flow sentiment. Yet I often feel different or distanced from others. I'm not really antisocial or rejecting of the human condition but I do question alot of the social conventions and practices that are in place. So would that be more contra-flow?

[Amber]

I think LIIBrarian should ask the person who came up with this idea to elaborate on it.

I could see how certain stackings are more belligerent/estranged from an essence of humanity, but I don't agree with the "stream of forces of attraction" suggested by this model. I would be very curious to hear the person who created it talk about what is based on .

Shrug.

[The Exception]

I think LIIBrarian should ask the person who came up with this idea to elaborate on it.

I could see how certain stackings are more belligerent/estranged from an essence of humanity, but I don't agree with the "stream of forces of attraction" suggested by this model. I would be very curious to hear the person who created it talk about what is based on .

Shrug.

Do you know who created this idea?

[Amber]

Do you know who created this idea?

I think it's Silke or she just compiled the info from some other webpages ...? I don't know. But she seems to use it a lot in her typings and descriptions.

Well, as for your stack, you seem "syn-flow" , kind of warm, with a refreshing joyful energy, so I would say sp/so. I haven't seen you butting heads with others too much or engaging in contra-flow humor (biting sarcasm, parody, slapstick comedic tricks ...). You don't strike me as operating with the group and social status in mind, either. You seem more individualistic, but still attentive to other people (not alienated/misanthropic).

[darya]

It's not silke's idea I think, but some other guy's from EIDB forum.

[silke]

There are references in that long instinct variant article that direct to the original source: https://web.archive.org/web/20141108...TOPIC_ID=26332 If you want to know more about the flows, LIIbrarian, create a discussion on this forum [**forum no longer active] and poke at dfgray44 to explain his syn-contra concepts further.

As for your stacking I agree with Sienna that sp/so is a good fit for you. Being "syn-flow" doesn't mean that one never questions the "social conventions and practices that are in place" and always goes with the flow. There are controversial and radical political figures on both sides; MLK, for example, is often typed as so/sx and syn-flow despite going against the prevailing social norms of his time. How exactly this works together with the "syn/contra-flow" concept you'd have to ask dfgray. In his writing he uses a lot of metaphors and symbolic references that are particular to his own conceptual space (his own type is quite likely EIE-Ni sp/sx 9w1), making it somewhat difficult to understand for others.

[Aylen]

Originally posted by dfgray44
Ha! I missed that pic.^^^

Yeah, maybe born insider isn't the best phrase to try and include sx/sp in, though you could interpret it as the horror of being born inside some relational compulsion/destiny...a prison of belonging. The wandering connector that never quite finds the completion/satisfaction of a reciprocal connecting circuit.

Maybe unfortunate belonging better conveys the social aspect of sx/sp. Though they're soc-last, they seem more compelled toward family and friends than sp/sx. Drawn toward something approaching 'social' but crippled with being soc-last. Like being born into a family with an orthogonal gaze.

Yes...all of it.

I found the pic posted above his post repulsive though.

Thanks for link Silke.

[Words]

I prefer that there would be no outsiders at all, that everyone would fit in and just get along. I think that's a rather syn flow sentiment. Yet I often feel different or distanced from others. I'm not really antisocial or rejecting of the human condition but I do question alot of the social conventions and practices that are in place. So would that be more contra-flow?

Isn't this what everyone wants on paper? Except in reality people have different ideas on what to think or to say.

As for the idea of this sny flow contra flow, i'm glad you brought it up, I was wondering where it came from, basically someones head on a forum.

[lynn]

this flow thing really holds true for my (extended) circle of close friends. i just recently realised that my sx/sp friend's boyfriend is sp/so. i always assumed that he's sp/sx or at least contra-flow but wondered why i could actually could talk to him about social related stuff very easily until i realised that i typed him wrong. so my 'group' of people who hang out with each other (growing organically together over the years) consists of several so/sx, sp/so's and one sx/sp. i have and had friends of contra-flow stackings too but they are not connected to the core group. so, yes, i think the model really is applicable to a certain extent.

[ouronis]

according to that breakdown, and the stackings I consider for myself, I'm an Animal Titan from Hell.

[The Exception]

I haven't entirely ruled out the possibility for SO/SP/SX stacking. There is a theory that the first type in your stacking is your most wounded instinct. For me, that's easily social. The second is the most stable one- which is self-pres. The third one is the one you tend to neglect- sexual. With this theory, I very neatly fit SO/SP/SX. It is a contra-flow stacking though and I identify more with syn flow.

Just throwing the possibility out there.

[Amber]

It's not only about syn/contra. You don't have a "magnifying" and (more or less subtly) self-aggrandizing presence ... you are e9, so contact with others may be a bit more important than to your classic LII e5.
so/sp is some sort of (social) control freak with a hint of personal superiority (sure, sometimes they are achievers, intelligent ppl ...).

Your don't VI so/sp, either. You are benevolent, open, direct ...with a smiling countenance in pics ...as if you genuinely wanted to communicate with ppl (sp/so is into people ...not like a bat in the forest ...). I don't get the sense of projecting the self outward while still being guarded with you ... where's your so/sp "crust".

[Amber]

p.s. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to neglect the 3rd instinct ... that would be the ideal state imo...having all 3 of them manifest and valuing them in various degrees.

[silke]

I haven't entirely ruled out the possibility for SO/SP/SX stacking. There is a theory that the first type in your stacking is your most wounded instinct. For me, that's easily social. The second is the most stable one- which is self-pres. The third one is the one you tend to neglect- sexual. With this theory, I very neatly fit SO/SP/SX. It is a contra-flow stacking though and I identify more with syn flow.

Just throwing the possibility out there.

The so instinct is often mistaken for Fe and vice versa. Their descriptions have multiple overlaps. It could be that that weakness you feel is actually the 1-dimensional Fe of an LII rather than soc, something to consider.

In general I agree with that theory. It's the first and the last instincts where it hurts the most and that cause the most worries, while the second is an area of relative confidence and creativity.

[mu4]

The so instinct is often mistaken for Fe and vice versa. Their descriptions have multiple overlaps. It could be that that weakness you feel is actually the 1-dimensional Fe of an LII rather than soc, something to consider.

In general I agree with that theory. It's the first and the last instincts where it hurts the most and that cause the most worries, while the second is an area of relative confidence and creativity.

It seems that the inner stack is protected and creative while the outer stacks are more reactive and/or stubborn.

I think this is true for socionics mental functions too, inert functions 1/4(strongest/weakest) are evaluatory/reactive/stubborn while contact functions 2/3 are more situational and creative.

[Amber]

It seems that the inner stack is protected and creative while the outer stacks are more reactive and/or stubborn.

I think this is true for socionics mental functions too, inert functions 1/4(strongest/weakest) are evaluatory/reactive/stubborn while contact functions 2/3 are more situational and creative.

The first instinct is fixed and stubborn ...like something ingrained that cannot be changed and whose demands cannot be avoided (if they are not met -- person feels unfulfilled)

The second instinct is flexible and more fluid. You can be more creative (and frivolous) with it, because it´s not as close to your heart. Normally used to support the needs of the 1st one. But it may seem the other way round to you because your 2nd instinct is Sp which automatically adds walls and rigidity to your So. Sx or So second don't perceive it the same way.

[mu4]

The first instinct is fixed and stubborn ...like something ingrained that cannot be changed and whose demands cannot be avoided (if they are not met -- person feels unfulfilled)

I feel unfulfilled relationship wise but socially as far as contributing has not been a problem, but it still leaves me very much unsatisfied. Is this sx last or sx first?

The second instinct is flexible and more fluid. You can be more creative (and frivolous) with it, because it´s not as close to your heart. Normally used to support the needs of the 1st one. But it may seem the other way round to you because your 2nd instinct is Sp which automatically adds walls and rigidity to your So. Sx or So second don't perceive it the same way.

I'm sure I'm sp 2nd so this is not confusing for me in enneagram, but it's hard to tell which is first and last in me because I think I am neurotic in both So and Sx.

This is I think exacerbated by significant trauma dissociations, of which I'm sure 1 are So/Sp but one is Sx/So and I think my "normal" self is Sx/Sp.

My relationship patterns follow sx/sp more so than so/sp based on what I've read. I am also more syn flo I think.

I am also not at all stiff or formal in intimate relationships or relations with family members.

[glam]

bump

this info is similar to the info already posted here, but it does provide a "disclaimer" warning against taking these descriptions extremely literally when trying to understand the nature of the flows. i kind of want to know what people think about these flows, and whether they identify with the flow of their stacking.

http://enneasite.com/the-stackings/

From another angle, the stackings can be seen aligning into two groups, each group moving in reverse direction to the other, which is an indicator to look for some underlying opposite compulsive thrust between them. Briefly stated, from the perspective of human inter-relations, they seem to be as follows:

Flow #1: sp/so —> so/sx —> sx/sp :: Compelled toward people/participation/involvement
Flow #2: sp/sx —> sx/so —> so/sp :: Compelled against and/or solipsistically away from people

The usual disclaimers apply…
a) A given person’s Enneagram type will modify and integrate with these expressions — potentially altering these themes significantly — as will personal history and current psychological state
b) The descriptions of the characteristics of these flows won’t translate into simple literalizations of behaviors; the discussion of these opposite directions is to get at a quality of the substrate material from which these flows and their respective stackings are formed

Flow #1 (Syn-flow)

sp/so (animals) = practical cooperation ~ revering the work of the harvest, the beasts of the field, the ‘fat of the land’
so/sx (humans) = multifaceted/multidirectional attraction ~ the radiant festival of the four corners of the Earth
sx/sp (hungry ghosts) = urgent bonding / ‘unfortunate’ belonging ~ the perpetually orthogonal embrace of the seeker/searcher

Deeply human, compelled toward the process of humanity.

Flow #2 (Contra-flow)

sx/so (gods) = cultural revolutionary ~ attractive social catalyst, steering popular culture/the arts/the cultural zeitgeist in a new direction
so/sp (titans) = culture warrior ~ social change by force and/or eternal/higher principle, the lightning thundering ‘voice of God’
sp/sx (Hell) = acultural solipsism ~ counterculture original, underbelly exposure, brooding mysterian, the fermenting underground

Outliers, antisocial, autonomous, chemically provocative, reverse-flow change catalysts. On some level, successfully rejecting the human condition…their own and that of others.

[Shytan]

I can't seem to understand this. Could someone give me real life examples of synflow and contraflow?

[Stellafera]

Well, this is more of an enneagram thing than a socionics one, but for me, the idea of syn and contraflow is basically this:

Synflow types have a secondary instinct that supports the motives of the dominant. It's moving with the current.

• Example: In So/Sx, the Social-dominant desire to belong and feel like a part of other peoples' lives works synergistically with a Sx focus on attraction & where the "juice" is. Being able to dig into people and connect with them furthers So goals.
• Example: In Sp/So, the Self Preservation desire for stability and keeping their affairs in order works synergistically with the So focus on finding a reliable social group and being aware of the dynamics therein. Being able to control your positioning in group dynamics furthers Sp goals.

Contraflow types have a secondary instinct whose goals work against the dominant. It's pushing against the grain.

• Example: In So/Sp, the Social-dominant desire to belong and feel like a part of other peoples' lives works against the Sp desire to remain separate and hang back. So/Sp wants to connect with people but also wants to hold themselves back and prevent throwing too much of themselves into anyone.
• Example: In Sp/Sx, the Self Preservation desire for stability and keeping their affairs in order works against the Sx focus on breaking boundaries and throwing yourself into someone.

Synflow usually comes across as "more" of the dominant instinct to me. For instance, Sx/Sp has their Sx instinct run over Sp freely like a steamroller, whereas So puts up a fight against Sx goals (merge with that one person and throw everything you have into them-WAIT BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO KEEP TRACK OF THE LARGER PICTURE DON'T YOU, DON'T LOSE SIGHT OF THE WORLD AT LARGE) and creates a push-pull dynamic.

Contraflow is usually a little unintentionally two-faced in the sense that their goals and execution of their goals are off-kilter. So/Sp for instance can come across as very bland and corporate in its attempts at relating to people because it holds back too much of itself; a very common complaint against So/Sp is that they're friendly and fun for small talk, but you can't ever really seem to get through to them, what's up with that? However, playing the dominant and secondary instinct against each other also gives contraflow types that incisive, counter-cultural quality to them that they're famous for.

[Chae]

Synflow usually comes across as "more" of the dominant instinct to me. For instance, Sx/Sp has their Sx instinct run over Sp freely like a steamroller, whereas So puts up a fight against Sx goals (merge with that one person and throw everything you have into them-WAIT BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO KEEP TRACK OF THE LARGER PICTURE DON'T YOU, DON'T LOSE SIGHT OF THE WORLD AT LARGE) and creates a push-pull dynamic.

Very awesome post Stella!
I have a good personal example for Shaebette here based on this part of yours.

...my rather extreme relationship initiation process. Which goes like this:

*spots potentially compatible person*
*Need to merge!!!*
*MAGNETIZING FORCE SET INTO MOTION BEEP BEEP*
*initiates eager conversation, figures person out in terms of personality and their interest, gets terribly thirsty for them once mutuality is detected, sleepless nights and hunger follow*
*Just about ready to absorb them completely*
*Just about ready to rip brain from my skull*
*Just about ready to ask for permission, drag them to my bed and Sex Our Souls™ out so we can exchange them*
*suddenly - a cryptic, ancient wise voice in my head speaks up*
"You know about the others. You know about our society. You know how it went, goes, will go for all of us. You know the implications. For you, your partner, for them. You aren't stupid Chae. You were made for greater things than that anyway. Don't give yourself up like that. You're not here just for two. This in not the only way. Do you actually hear yourself talk and see yourself act right now? Wtf."
*???*
* --- *
*!!!*
*SX magnet force: ~poof~*

Don't ask me where this voice comes from, what it truly means, and why it is so convincing to me. It always pops up like that, with the same message. I guess it's a fundamentally social drive within that draws SX into both conflow contradiction but also a territory of health, otherwise I'd probably fall apart. Also: When you look at what I noticed right after writing this, the parts about absorbing, nights, hunger, and brain. That's the SP blind spot. It sort of needs saving from the social instinct, something that's not so crass in synflow because the secondary instinct is more cooperative rather than antagonizing.

[Shytan]

@Stellafera Awesome post!! I've gotten new insight into the flows. However, I have another question- How does all this play out in the whole "Synflow- Compelled towards people, Contraflow- Rejects the human condition" aspect?

[Shytan]

...my rather extreme relationship initiation process. Which goes like this:

*spots potentially compatible person*
*Need to merge!!!*
*MAGNETIZING FORCE SET INTO MOTION BEEP BEEP*
*initiates eager conversation, figures person out in terms of personality and their interest, gets terribly thirsty for them once mutuality is detected, sleepless nights and hunger follow*
*Just about ready to absorb them completely*
*Just about ready to rip brain from my skull*
*Just about ready to ask for permission, drag them to my bed and Sex Our Souls™ out so we can exchange them*
*suddenly - a cryptic, ancient wise voice in my head speaks up*
"You know about the others. You know about our society. You know how it went, goes, will go for all of us. You know the implications. For you, your partner, for them. You aren't stupid Chae. You were made for greater things than that anyway. Don't give yourself up like that. You're not here just for two. This in not the only way. Do you actually hear yourself talk and see yourself act right now? Wtf."
*???*
* --- *
*!!!*
*SX magnet force: ~poof~*

Thanks Chae! I can see exactly how this plays out for you Sx/sos. For me the voice stops me by telling me I'm going to get hurt and it's not worth it, and I'm spending too much time and energy on this person and forgetting about myself.

[Chae]

Thanks Chae! I can see exactly how this plays out for you Sx/sos. For me the voice stops me by telling me I'm going to get hurt and it's not worth it, and I'm spending too much time and energy on this person and forgetting about myself.

Yep, precisely how SP sort of "stops" SX running wild. With SO secondary the collective is considered, with SP secondary your own wellbeing steps into it, two sides of the same coin.

[Olimpia]

Interesting, @Stellafera , I have not thought about the stackings like that before.

I mostly see the difference between synflow vs contraflow in their general attitude towards and effect on humanity and cultural dynamics. That is probably very SO first of me.

Sp/So stabilizes society; So/Sx entertains and stabilizes, Sx/Sp intensifies human relationships. In that manner, all synflow stackings form an ecosystem. The same applies to the contraflow stackings; they also create an ecosystem of their own. Sx/So brings paradigm shifts of thought into the picture; So/Sp creates new impulses in the sense of how the environment and society could be better stabilized; Sp/Sx is the underground world beneath the surface, those individuals can also bring about different paradigm shifts by resisting the influence of others around them or challenging the status quo indirectly; their focus is on individuals and stabilizing intensity. I find the contraflow stackings tend to "disrupt" the ecosystem of the synflow people, in the way they send those re-shifting impulses into society.

Both ecosystems are overlapping; both synflow and contraflow people are part of all societies, though one ecosystem tends to "reign" over the other in certain cultures, or at least be at the forefront. Most Western people seem to be Synflow, though there are quite a bunch of Sp/Sx individuals in the mix, the richest people in the world are typically So/Sp – money is power, and the "loudest" and most influential humanitarians are typically Sx/So. In sum, it feels like the flows are balanced; yes, there are more synflow people, but the contraflow people are "louder" and more influential. Dynamically, it is like there is a constant tug-and-pull between the synflow and contraflow ecosystems.

Contraflow movements can change the mindset of a culture for centuries, or at least a decade or two. Then stability sets in more or less; the new ideologies get "cemented" by the synflow individuals. Like for example the acceptance of homosexuality and gay marriage; first ignored or even detested by most of society, and over time the wind shifted and synflow people (myself included) started to support the movement, and this eventually lead to that kind of acceptance becoming more "mainstream". But over time, another seed of disruption and innovation will have spawn, and another movement will re-orient the flow of events. Perhaps this is nature's way to ensure that people keep adapting to new situations and do not stagnate. It seems like a society made up of only synflow people would stagnate and not develop into more varied shapes. On the other hand, a society made up of only contraflow people would be "lop-sided" and lack the stability. At the worst, a synflow society is totalitarian and expects everyone to conform to the status quo, whereas in a contraflow society at the worst, anarchy would be the main principle - a "dog eats dog" kind of world.

Another way to think of the flows is by imagining a cycle. Here is an example of a very Sp/So-synflow cycle, which goes clock-wise. Just like the water evaporates from the "ground" up (technically the oceans etc "on the ground"), forms into clouds in the heavens, and then leads to rainfall back to the ground, so does it all start with Sp/So from the ground up, the self-preservation instinct – the most grounded instinct that most likely has developed first; from there, you are being lead into the groundless heavens of So/Sx, and from there you move back to the ground in an intense downpour of Sx/Sp. The cycle of contraflow, on the other hand, goes anti-clock-wise. We start deep in the ground, underneath the surface, in the world of Sp/Sx. There is a lot of pressure down there. Over time, the Sp/Sx will turn into magma, this intensity cannot be contained forever, it erupts into an Sx/So explosion of lava and spreads all over the earth in an aggressive and destructive fashion, forcing the world to change. After a while, the lava of the Sx/So will have cooled off, new So/Sp trees and plants will have grown and the lava will have turned into the solid rock of So/Sp.

The water cycle is crucial for obvious reasons; we humans all need to consume water to survive. We do not need volcanic eruptions, but afterwards those can lead to a re-newed world. Or in other words: "The good thing is that volcanic soil is very rich, so once everything cools off, plants can make a big comeback!" In human society, the contraflow stackings can essentially give us a fresh new plate to go off from. Both flows can benefit from each other; the contraflow's agenda is best stabilized and implemented by the synflow people, and the synflow people are being "awakened" or "stirred" by the contraflow ones. However, because both stackings have different agendas, often even quite contradictory ones, it can take quite a while until they have reached to a consensus. You could perhaps compare the misunderstandings but also fruitful collaborations between the stackings to the ones between the male and female sexes. Females and males have different brains and different reproductive strategies and agendas, but together they are the most successful. And the same could apply to synflow and contraflow.

[Stellafera]

@Stellafera Awesome post!! I've gotten new insight into the flows. However, I have another question- How does all this play out in the whole "Synflow- Compelled towards people, Contraflow- Rejects the human condition" aspect?

Sure! First, I'd nix the idea of compelled towards/against since I think that's more of a function of your overall enneagram type. I mean, as a contraflow 6, I tend to attach myself on other people's thinkings all the time. Accepts/Rejects the human condition is interesting, though, and I think it does tie back into my interpretation of the flow theory. Contraflow rejects the "normal" way to be its dominant instinct and thus the "normal" human condition.

I'm going to go with So/Sp as my example here because I'm kind of bad at describing Sx. So/Sp rejects the idea that in order to feel like you're a part of the tribe, you should have powerful, vulnerable interactions with other people and abandon yourself to the group. So/Sp says, no, I disagree; I want to be connected, I want to belong, but I also want to disconnect at times and be able to define myself completely independently of the group. So you meet 2/3 of the way (since the dominant instinct wins out more often).

What I'm trying to think of now is why contraflow might arise as a pattern. @Cassandra offers some big picture suggestions (although I'd really not like to describe the instincts that way to someone right off the bat, mostly because I'm very nervous about pushing all the 1s and 4s of the world to type as contraflow because they feel like iconoclasts or something), but I mean more on the individual level. What makes someone become contraflow? Is it a certain kind of social pressure growing up? I remember reading one person online who mentioned that every So/Sp they knew grew up as a middle child and the "responsible" one, the one who stepped up to plate as the glue of the family, and that was... absolutely true of me. Is something about that fostering a So/Sp attitude? Do contraflow types arise out of some sort of Devil's Advocate thing, where a person doesn't like commiting too much to one way of thinking? That doesn't make sense, I'm pretty sure there's plenty of dogmatic contraflow types out there.

So, in short, contraflow definitely involves some sort of rejection of the 'norm' with this instincts, but I'm not sure why.

[Bertrand]

To me, I feel like contraflow is a way people relate to the world and its a fundamentally contrarian pose, but in the deepest possible sense. Its not being a rebel, or being disagreeable, or being SP; its a base outlook on the world that does not assume common ground with themselves and the rest of the world. They do not speak from a place of familiarity. Its a kind of radical disconnect whereby they do not feel existentially connected to a whole such that they are committed to a fundamentally common project with the rest of humanity. Its a kind of radical flow away from togetherness even as the SO types huddle and the SX types seek connection--its an underlying pose of alienation that transcends any particular circumstance. So like I feel like I'm synthflow even though I'm odds with a shitload of people, frequently lonely, etc. I feel like that's still fundamentally human and people can understand that and there's a meaning to it all and others, at least in principle, share in that and can understand that. Contraflow I feel like really doesn't look at the world that way and, further, doesn't want to overcome that or see an issue with that. If anything they give off the impression they want to show that that's not the case, that they are independent of that and they work against that even when they outwardly push any possible agenda a human being could have

it can be explicit but its mainly and definitely implicit... it discloses itself as a long term unconscious pattern (i.e.: instinct)

someone like Pole Ninja strikes me as contra flow, whereas Niffer seems snythflow, even though they outwardly give off similar low Fi vibes and approach the world in an otherwise similar manner, etc

[yeves]

Contra-flow: sp → sx → so → sp
Stackings involved: sp/sx → sx/so → so/sp → sp/sx
Direction: Compelled against people. Seething belligerent outsiders; 'antisocial', provoking, reverse-flow change catalysts. In some profound sense, rejecting the human condition, their own and/or that of others.

This is such a contra flow picture ....