Superego Fi: Beta vs Alpha

[strangeling]

So I've never put that much thought into this, but after having a discussion with someone that's most likely a psychopath, I'd like to hear what people say about this. I had typed this person LSI a while back and after getting to analyze him a bit, I found out that he analyzes people's emotions, passively figuring out how to play with people's emotions to get what he wants. He has no scruples when it comes to these things and will kill or hurt people, if he thinks he can get away with it or it will benefit him. The funny thing is, he thinks excessive emotion is a weakness to be used to his advantage (Ti neurosis with dual-seeking Fe?). He also doesn't feel sadness when someone close to him dies, like a pet or someone he spends his time with.

So...eh, I don't know, just wonder what people think. I don't think I've ever met an actual psychopath. I always read him as playing neutral, but I didn't think it was because he was a psychopath. I guess maybe I'm surprised I couldn't see it. And kind of wondering if Fi superego doesn't really feel close attachments to people.

Of course, it all depends on how one reasons socionics, as to what they will say regarding this, but I'd still like to hear what you all have to say.

[Hays]

Excessive emotion to me for many years was seen as a bit repelling but now that I am older I treasure it with those people and animals close to me. My pets are these days like child replacements now that my children have gone off into adulthood with thier partners. I love each child and each pet for their individual qualities.
I have one child of three who I am not overly close to at times. This child and I don't seem to have a very good relationship as I can never be what they desire me to be. I on the other hand have found thier life partner someone I have no desire to be around.

A psychopath is in a totally different realm though... I should know as I was brought up by one.
They kill pets, neighbors animals and give no love but just use others.
They see no wrong in themselves and just take, they barely if ever give for any reason.

[The Reality Denialist]

Well... If we look at valued ethics: -Fe and +Fe. I find drama kind of stupid and exhausting. I'm not a hard guy and forgiving while I don't like cheating to your own ends. I don't know how this relates to super-ego +Fi and -Fi.

I know an Beta ST (I have hard time point whether he is SLE-Ti (extremely Ti focused) or just LSI). He speaks about things very roughly: It should be put down etc. I don't care what happens to a person. No one will be missed.
It is part of his humor but at the same time he creates very callous image of himself. This is very extreme presentation of +Ti.

How about this: Betas apparently flog together and form closely knitted ties whereas alphas just hang around with any one. Aristocracy vs democracy. At least I don't rely on stereotypes.

Is it true that our super ego is bad version of gamma SF? So for alpha NTs it is -Fi and +Se. I kind of see it when I resort to that arena. I try to put on some resistance and finally just leave bad things.
Beta ST: There is a possibility that I can make this person confirm for his/her best interest.???

[ouronis]

I only display my attachments to family when in extreme circumstances. However, I'd probably do the same for a stranger. I don't really feel strong attachments-that's true. Rarely, I feel excited about helping someone reach their potential, and giving them a path to go on in life. But I'm used to people not understanding this advice.

[golden]

Psychopaths definitionally have certain traits. The current consensus is that inability to feel empathy is one of them. What should this have to do with Fi in any placement? It may have to do with a fucked-up brain structure:

From here, though it's now an older article:

In January of 2007, Kiehl arranged to have a portable functional magnetic-resonance-imaging scanner brought into Western—the first fMRI ever installed in a prison. So far, he has recruited hundreds of volunteers from among the inmates. The data from these scans, Kiehl hopes, will confirm his theory, published in Psychiatry Research, in 2006, that psychopathy is caused by a defect in what he calls “the paralimbic system,” a network of brain regions, stretching from the orbital frontal cortex to the posterior cingulate cortex, that are involved in processing emotion, inhibition, and attentional control.

Anecdotally, the people I've known well enough to register them as psychopathic (especially you envision psychopathy as scalar, I type ILE, IEE, LSE, and SLE.

[The Exception]

So I've never put that much thought into this, but after having a discussion with someone that's most likely a psychopath, I'd like to hear what people say about this. I had typed this person LSI a while back and after getting to analyze him a bit, I found out that he analyzes people's emotions, passively figuring out how to play with people's emotions to get what he wants. He has no scruples when it comes to these things and will kill or hurt people, if he thinks he can get away with it or it will benefit him. The funny thing is, he thinks excessive emotion is a weakness to be used to his advantage (Ti neurosis with dual-seeking Fe?). He also doesn't feel sadness when someone close to him dies, like a pet or someone he spends his time with.

I'm a Ti base but I'm an LII. I'm not like this at all I do analyze peoples' emotions all the time but I do it so that I can know the 'proper' way to interact with them to avoid the least the amount of conflict. I don't try to take advantage of others and I look at excessive emotion as more of something that gets in the way rather than as a weakness. I don't think most LSIs though are quite as extreme as what you describe. Maybe they are somewhat more prone to that kind of thinking than LIIs though. Ti+Se vs Ti+Ne and +Ti vs -Ti.

I know an Beta ST (I have hard time point whether he is SLE-Ti (extremely Ti focused) or just LSI). He speaks about things very roughly: It should be put down etc. I don't care what happens to a person. No one will be missed.
It is part of his humor but at the same time he creates very callous image of himself. This is very extreme presentation of +Ti.

[/COLOR]

Again, this sounds like a rather extreme way of thinking. I doubt most LSIs or SLEs are really like this.

[strrrng]

I haven't dealt with any LxI psychopaths, but my intuition is that LSIs would be the most systematically manipulative, strategically second to their duals, whereas LIIs would more passively and indirectly draw people in and get them to emotionally 'feed' them.

a Ti-SLE potentate I interacted extensively with would do this thing where she would 'steal moments'... basically by casting a glance or transferring energy in a way that would subtly shift things in her favor. I suspect an LSI psychopath would be more direct, albeit haphazard, in this regard.

vaguely similar to the LII aspect was a Te-ILI psychopath I dealt with. he would basically initiate with some peripherally relatable Fi comment, and then endlessly rattle off Te bullshit, attempting to draw the person into his maniacally pointless vortex.

I think in general Fi role creates a hesitant distance towards interpersonal relations, and the person avidly seeks to maintain their systematic control so they don't have to fully deal with the ambiguity in regards to where they stand with people. this is kind of double-edged for psychopathy, because on the one hand they don't care about interpersonal nuance past a basic, tactical degree; but on the other hand they need it to function. so Fi-role psychopaths would be kind of emotionally ambiguous.

[The Exception]

I haven't dealt with any LxI psychopaths, but my intuition is that LSIs would be the most systematically manipulative, strategically second to their duals, whereas LIIs would more passively and indirectly draw people in and get them to emotionally 'feed' them.

I admit to being sometimes guilty of the bolded.

[strangeling]

Well... If we look at valued ethics: -Fe and +Fe. I find drama kind of stupid and exhausting. I'm not a hard guy and forgiving while I don't like cheating to your own ends. I don't know how this relates to super-ego +Fi and -Fi.

I know an Beta ST (I have hard time point whether he is SLE-Ti (extremely Ti focused) or just LSI). He speaks about things very roughly: It should be put down etc. I don't care what happens to a person. No one will be missed.
It is part of his humor but at the same time he creates very callous image of himself. This is very extreme presentation of +Ti.

Yes, he's like this. But in his case, he's being honest, even if joking. I think maybe he just says what he wants and depending on how other people respond, he then pretends it was a joke. For him covering up stuff like this means he has to pretend to care. I guess I just find it so foreign to me; it makes me wonder how someone like this is supposed to compare to an LSI that isn't psychopathic.

Is it true that our super ego is bad version of gamma SF?

I don't know. I've noticed a tendency for certain people to see their superego in a negative light, maybe because they can't utilize the value in it, so it's easier to mark it off as something not worth the effort. And in that case, it would be.

Psychopaths definitionally have certain traits. The current consensus is that inability to feel empathy is one of them. What should this have to do with Fi in any placement? It may have to do with a fucked-up brain structure:

From here, though it's now an older article:

Anecdotally, the people I've known well enough to register them as psychopathic (especially you envision psychopathy as scalar, I type ILE, IEE, LSE, and SLE.

Well, I'm not going to argue that Fi does have to do with empathy on some level when you already decided it doesn't. But for example, junvenile delinquents have a high proportion of Sensing and Thinking preferences (http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/...ssertation.pdf p54 and p55). Yes, it's MBTI and from a study done in 2000, but it's to make a point that a strong thinking preference seems to disregard the rights of others. But that's both Te and Ti, essentially. So I agree that those types could be psychopathic, depending on their subtype. But I'd have a hard time believing a feeling subtype of those types was psychopathic when psychopaths are supposed to have shallow emotions. It literally doesn't make sense to say so. But whatever.

[Aylen]

I wrote about my experience with an LSI. I would not say she is psycho but there is a missing element in her that I can't place. I usually connect to the essence of someone pretty well but something seems to be hollow (in her) in the the place I usually feel mutual connection. She is very good with plants, animals, and children but I am not sure how well she can actually empathize with others. Everything seems to revolve around what she needs and the strongest emotion I have witnessed her experiencing was self-pity. If someone dies she can go into deep depression and idealize the dead person to the point that she dismisses the living. She starts to hold others to the standard she imagines the dead had. Sometimes she did not even feel that much for them when they were alive. I posted about my life with her but it was too private so I moved to blog. Growing up with her was interesting, to say the least. :/

She has gotten somewhat better I suppose. I never feel warmth from her even though I try to on a daily basis [I thought about this and really I am not trying. I go through the motions of saying something kind to her but I feel so distant from her]]. At this point it might be me keeping us from truly connecting. I probably hold resentment still. One thing I notice is she seems to be contemplating something all the time but I can never get a read on what it might be. She does not seem to be introspective to me. Like she cannot see or feel things of an emotional nature without some kind of outside stimulus which I cannot seem to give, to her.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-mother-s-type

[golden]

Well, I'm not going to argue that Fi does have to do with empathy on some level when you already decided it doesn't. But for example, junvenile delinquents have a high proportion of Sensing and Thinking preferences (http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/...ssertation.pdf p54 and p55). Yes, it's MBTI and from a study done in 2000, but it's to make a point that a strong thinking preference seems to disregard the rights of others. But that's both Te and Ti, essentially. So I agree that those types could be psychopathic, depending on their subtype. But I'd have a hard time believing a feeling subtype of those types was psychopathic when psychopaths are supposed to have shallow emotions. It literally doesn't make sense to say so. But whatever.

It's an interesting issue, but indulge me, as I'm skeptical by nature. First off, juvenile delinquent certainly does not equal psychopath.

I'm guessing that those juvenile delinquents were mostly male, which already might skew T > F. Their self-concepts and coping strategies also might have affected how they tested. I think a kid who feels the need to be tough isn't likely to self-respond in ways that sound very F, even if that's what s/he'd be if all else were equal. I'd be curious how people would type a group like this from a Socionics perspective (even though that'd be a clusterfuck of the usual disagreement).

You're right that I don't agree that Fi amounts to empathy. I also tend to agree with Goleman that there must be different modes of empathy. It's not hard science, but it seems commonsensical enough. LIIbrarian mentioned her own use of cognitive empathy in this thread.

And again anecdotally, some of the harshest people I've known are a couple of ESIs who sat in judgment in relation to me, showing very little ability to model what I was experiencing. A couple of the SEEs I've known have been morally iffy and dried up their empathy to facilitate the shitty things they felt like doing. I've been disgustingly harassed by an ENFp, and I've dealt extensively with another ENFp who's a classic narcissist. So even though plenty of Fi-ego people are really cool, there's no way I'm gonna buy that having Fi in one's ego block is any kind of insulation against being heedlessly, dehumanizingly aggressive or cruel.

Meanwhile, a lot of the T people I know are actively, openly working to understand other people, instead of just assuming they know what's going on with them. That's a trait I appreciate and try to learn from because I think it's healthy and respectful.

[strangeling]

Yeah, I'm not arguing against that being the case though.

...Okay, let's forget types for a moment. Let's just say you have people that have fixations of being with the world. We can categorize these fixations and perceive and observe them all we want, but those fixations vary with time, where some stay relatively constant and others change quite a bit. So someone may struggle with, I don't know, let's say empathy a lot more than another person might. We could apply Jungian concepts and say the one that doesn't struggle with empathy as much has more emotional intelligence...so maybe we call them a feeler. Does that mean this person will never struggle with feeling? That they will always be empathetic? No...of course not, people change. Maybe the empathetic one will not be so empathetic later on and perhaps we then would say they were now more a thinking type. People aren't always the same.

So I choose instead to see when and how someone is cut off from feeling and when and how they regain their connection. Typing someone just summarizes their behavior into a personality profile, which doesn't have to take into account the Jungian framework. So maybe we disagree on concepts under-riding how we have come to our conclusions. And that's fine, but because of this I don't think it's very meaningful to consider types as much as the Jungian elements because they are more mentally exploratory, rather than finalized and definitive.