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Thread: Differences between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx

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    Default Differences between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx

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    Last edited by willekeurig; 05-17-2015 at 08:02 PM.
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    I went back and forth between Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx for quite a while when I first found the instincts. From the descriptions I found, my lifestyle matched up more with Sp/Sx, but Sx/Sp sounded like the person I wanted to be. After befriending and working with many Sp/Sxs though the difference between our styles of interaction is very apparent.

    The two types seem very similar on the surface, and even after getting to know an so-last distinguishing between both types can be problematic. In my experience with Sp/Sx friendships, some are much more obviously Sp-first than others, but others will have a more reactive engagement with me when we're talking, a certain internal spontaneity characteristic of Sx in general. But the Sx/Sp and Sp/Sx lifestyles are on opposite ends of the same spectrum. The closed-off aloof vibe of an Sx/Sp will gradually melt away entirely when fully engaged with an object of obsession, whereas an Sp/Sx will likely always retain some inner core of selfness that can't be shaken. The internal reactivity of Sx becomes more of a passing affect, a mask that can be put on and taken off seemingly at will.

    I'll try to post more concrete examples when I'm more focused, everything feels muddy atm.
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    I've always thought of you as contra-flow. The sx is there but you vibe kind of thick-skinned and contented, and lack a certain naivety/idealism that I get from Syn-flow people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Pleeeease tell us or link the flow information, I've heard this mentioned multiple times but I don't know what you are talking about and I want to read it!!
    Scroll down

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...tual-Stackings

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    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

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    There's a slightly more 'aggressive' (read assertive, not hostile) vibe in the OP than I find in sp/sx. It's visible even in the context of other EIIs to be seen around. From the little I know of her, she doesn't strike me as grounded&calming, but as guarded. I think I stated my opinion already in a VI thread. I recall someone said she comes across as 'a feline-like creature' and that qualifier seemed spot-on to me. There's something less static in her than in sp/sx. It vibes like some controlled energy ...but it's there.

    Overall she doesn't seem to use Sx 'creatively' ...in a showy fashion. Quite the opposite. And since she's such an obvious So last .... it just makes more sense that she's Sx first .... they are more prone to keep that instinct close to their core and more hidden (than both Sx/so and Sx second).
    Last edited by Amber; 01-23-2015 at 02:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Well, see here, you are being a bit too literal about what I mean. I am not making my assessments based solely on your "forum behavior" or posts, if anything that's sort of peripheral to what I mean. Its more about the actual energy you put out, sometimes in chat, your pictures, your mannerisms. What I meant is not literally "explosive forum behavior". It is that...sx/sp is for the most part a restrained stacking, because the sp is always pulling the sx back, mediating it and so forth. But a lack of sx interaction will eventually lead to some kind of release, or obsession, where instead of pulling back the sx energy the sx/sp person practically takes a bath in it. I was thinking of Galen's descriptions of one sx person meeting another and having a compulsive exchange of energy, building on one another endlessly. Have you seen that post? It might shed some light on what I'm trying to say. I want to write a bit more here about the differences between these two types as I'm pretty sure my bf is sp/sx. But that will come later when I have more time to write.





    What's left to say with all that's come and gone
    Words get in the way and anyway the devils got your tongue
    And a storm brews inside and there's nowhere to hide
    It's gonna blow your cover sky high
    But if you let this thing go, it's gonna burn, it's gonna burn
    You're gonna take the whole world with you when you go


    Oh oh oh what you gonna do ?
    When the storm takes over
    Oh oh oh what you gonna do ?
    When the storm takes over


    So here you are, demons screaming in your head
    You try to shut them out but they just get louder instead
    And nothing you do can seem to break through
    This darkness smothering you
    When it takes hold, your heart turns cold
    The very soul seeps out of you


    Oh oh oh what you gonna do ?
    When this storm, this storm takes over you
    Can you hold this thing
    Can you hold this thing

    Till the clouds clear.


    This song is probably a bit 4ish but what you said reminded me of it.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    sp/sx are a bit darker and more to themselves, I think. Their close relationships are very important, but not more important than their personal comfort & well being. This is how I decided on sp/sx over sx/sp for myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
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    Also, a notable difference between me and an 4w3 sx/sp girl that I worked with was that she seemed to lock into people and form relationships much more easily than I did. After my first conversation with her it was almost as if she was able to form an immediate bond with me. From then on she made me feel warm and positive whenever I was around her. When she moved I was visibly upset. Most people who got to know her had a positive rapport with her, even though she was an edgy troubled girl who suffered from depression.

    I on the other hand am much slower to form bonds. I have to find a safe ground with a person and figure them out before I can safely say that I want to form a bond with them. Then once this is achieved, this person will forever be dear and close to me. It just takes time, I'm slower to commit to relationships. Also, I have a much more negative view of people in general. For instance, I HATE new people until I become better accustomed to them in my environment and I have little interest in acquainting myself with them until I warm up to the idea of them. I've noticed that sx/sp people aren't really like this, and seem to be a lot more accepting of the human condition in general because they so easily form bonds. People are a lot more interesting to them.

    I guess you could say that's where the contra/syn flow aspect comes in.
    Last edited by fox; 01-23-2015 at 06:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    If this is what I think it is, then it's definitely something that happens to me.
    I still wonder if non-sx-firsts can relate to it or not. Haven't heard anything of the sort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I on the other hand am much slower to form bonds. I have to find a safe ground with a person and figure them out before I can safely say that I want to form a bond with them. Then once this is achieved, this person will forever be dear and close to me. It just takes time, I'm slower to commit to relationships. Also, I have a much more negative view of people in general. For instance, I HATE new people until I become better accustomed to them in my environment. I've noticed that sx/sp people aren't really like this, and seem to be a lot more accepting of the human condition in general because they so easily form bonds. People are a lot more interesting to them.
    IME Sx/Sps can seem very hot/cold depending on the social context. Larger groups of people, or at least people they don't like already, can cause them to tune out mentally and give an impression of being boring killjoys. In smaller settings with groups of trusted confidants they liven up much easier.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    What do you think about the syn-flow / contra-flow descriptions about being compelled towards/against people etc?
    I think syn/contra flow is a load of vague interpretational crap. If there is anything to the idea I haven't seen anything consistent about it in real people.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Aren't close relationships just a more vital part (than security/comfort) to the Sx/Sp:s well-being, though? Neglecting Sp-stuff in favour of a relationship, then, wouldn't be sacrificing one's well-being, but contributing to it. Or did you by well being mean Sp-related stuff rather than general well-being that can come from other things?



    I bolded stuff that I relate to, and underlined stuff that I don't relate to. Once again, both Sx>Sp and contra-flow seem to make sense. :/
    In general I am not very fond of people. I perceive the vast majority of people as not being worth my time, and I'm rarely interested enough to go and introduce myself to a new person a friend has brought to a house party; I may even actively annoyed by them, like they're invading my pack/space/life or something. The syn-flow descriptions of being compelled towards people and "deeply human" don't resonate with me at all. Even many of my friends have confessed that they thought I hated them at fist, even though this usually wasn't the case (the exception being one IEI that I actually despised at first, but that only encouraged her to try more to befriend me, lol).

    But then there are some exceptional individuals, people I just see and decide I want them in my life. With these folk I can form a bond incredibly fast and get into one of those intense loops that Galen described. There really isn't such thing as tmi for me, I can go straight into sharing our deepest secrets and fantasies if the situation only is suited for that, even when I haven't been introduced to the person, don't know their name etc. One of my closest friends, a (Ne-IEE, maybe Sx/So 7w8?) girl, is a good example. We first met at a park where her and my groups had for some reason gotten mixed up. She heard me say something positive about a political party/ideology she hates and came to challenge me. We ended up having an intense debate/fight, and after several hours and two bottles of wine we realised most others were leaving to go to a bar and we should maybe join them. At that point I think we made some plans about going to continental Europe for a road trip together etc (which we did). She's later said that she didn't know then if she wanted to kiss me or punch me in the face, but we've been really close friends ever since.

    Have you got any examples of situations where someone Sx/Sp has behaved in a certain way, but you would have done differently due to the different order of preference? I think comparisons like that might prove to be the most fruitful when trying to settle on a type..
    I'm responding on my phone so I can't quote break this apart.

    By wellbeing I ment sp stuff. For instance, my sx first boyfriend will become greatly hurt because I don't call him 24/7 or respond to his texts right away, and sometimes I forget to call back. It's not that I don't care about him, it's just that I'm more focused on getting myself situated and put my own needs first before attending to him. He often complains that he's not my first priority and that I'm selfish because of this. He wants me to be obsessed with him, almost. I guess this could also be linked to him being more in love with me than I am with him. I've been in relationships where I've been crazy obsessive, but I was hurt so badly that I'm somewhat more guarded in that aspect now.

    I relate to the not giving good first impressions thing. People have said that they thought I was a cold, aloof bitch before they've gotten to know me. People irl often stay away from me because of this, as I give off a vibe that I don't want to be bothered. On the contrary, I'm actually nice to everyone I meet, just guarded. I also relate to the nothing being too tmi thing, but I think this is more related to being so last.


    I can't really think of personal situations where I've acted diffrently on the top of my head. I guess the biggest difference in situations I've noticed is that sx/sp people are more willing to go outside of their comfort zone than I am and exert more energy in getting to know people on a personal level or try new experiences. Sx/sp people I've known have also more easily slipped into sexual and nonsexual relationships than I have because they more easily lock onto others. The ones I've known also seem more prone to self medicating with substance than me. Personal example would be expirimenting with drugs. I have been interested in expirimenting with hallucinogenic drugs, but wouldn't actively seek out to make that happen unless someone offered them to me, and it was in a good environment with people I trusted. sx/sp people seem to be more willing to actually seek out what they want to try for themselves, despite obstacles, whereas sp/sx is just fine and dandy following their intrests in their personal safe sp bubble.
    Last edited by fox; 01-24-2015 at 06:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    IME Sx/Sps can seem very hot/cold depending on the social context.* Larger groups of people, or at least people they don't like already, can cause them to tune out mentally and give an impression of being boring killjoys.* In smaller settings with groups of trusted confidants they liven up much easier.
    I think this may just be a so last trait then, because this is how I am. This trait of mine has pissed off my sx/so boyfriends in the past. They couldn't understand how I could be so alive and fun when I was with just them or small groups of people that I was close to, yet at parties or social gatherings I'd just revert back into my shell and act aloof and uninterested in what was going on. They think I'm boring to party with, but fun to be alone with.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    can seem very hot/cold depending on the social context. Larger groups of people, or at least people they don't like already, can cause them to tune out mentally and give an impression of being boring killjoys. In smaller settings with groups of trusted confidants they liven up much easier.
    I also relate to every word of this.
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    I'm introverted also.

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    Default Contrast between sx/sp and sp/sx

    I've recently been paying attention to instictual stackings, which I usually ignored.

    After reading the different stackings descriptions and commenting them, I would say sx/sp is the option that fits better for me. I quite like this description in particular:

    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    Sx/Sp- muddy, lava-like, piercing

    Energetic qualities associated with sx/sp - intensifying, escalating, rising, surging, enlivening, invigorating, accelerating, stimulating, energizing, vitalizing, reviving, animating, inspiriting

    Why do sx/sp's seem saturated with intensity?
    -sx/sp's gain stability by withholding strong sexual impulses sp ---> into ---> sx

    Sx/Sp Writing Style: Intense, often a stab-in-the-chest sensation, leaving me in tears without knowing why. Fantastical but much more concentrated in a few inner images. Can be abstract, animating dead objects into their field of contemplation. Embodiment of another human, thing, or idea is common in their writings.

    Picture a lightning bolt captured in a bottle. The energy is always there but it's contained in a glass jar and only breaks free once in a while. The sx/sp is boxed in energy, self-contained, cutting, and focused. Sx/sp types will often look angry even when they are not. There is a certain reality of emotion which they display that is due to their social obliviousness. Most sx's will be honest almost to a fault. Sx/sp want to choose their friends wisely. A "with me or against me" attitude reminiscent of 6 and 8s. The least inhibited of all stackings. Cares less of what others think of them. The most likely to get into physical altercations, and may even enjoy fighting. Healthy sx/sp's will display a playful selfishness.

    ...
    etc.
    Although there are still certain things that make me doubt between sx/sp and "its mirror" sp/sx. sp/sx descriptions I have found are not so rounded and a bit more like an hodgepodge of different aspects, so I'm not sure if I'm really getting its essence. And of course, after you read this:

    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    sp/sx also has an inverted narcissism (perhaps distorted exhibitionism is more accurate). There's an impulse to open the raincoat and reveal cancerous lesions covering the torso and genitalia. Festering wounds with a stench. It sometimes seems to be a challenge issued around deep, deep bonding: This is me; How real are you willing to be? Psychic nudity/revelation that, in itself, threatens the sp/sx with self-destruction....or at least social self-destruction, which is part of the distilling process toward the one-to-one uber-bond. There's an element of all that with sx in general but sp/sx, in this mode, prefers it truly organically grotesque, leaving a stain and a scar that's hard to interpret.
    I understand this is intended to me metaphorical, a sort of "look at me, this is how I am, accept me or leave me alone", but my reaction after reading this is... wtf?

    Let's see if I understand these keypoints about instinctual stackings correctly:


    • The strongest stacking is supposed to to be the most deeply rooted in the psyche. Due to this, it's not so [externally] obvious as you could expect for it, as it's "too personal" so to speak. It belongs to the user and it's for the user, not for other people (directly). The second and last stacking are less rooted and therefore more openly exposed. As the last one is too weak, all thing equals the sencond one would be the "most visible" or superfically apparent. But once you're closer enough to a particular person and intimacy could be more openly shared, you will notice that the strongest impulses lives in another dimension of the person's psyche.
    • A simple comparsion of this effect could be socionics leading versus creative function. Creative is weaker, but it's also the main way of interacting with the external world.


    This "contradiction" will cause unexpected results. For example, an sp/so would be more social than assumed, [relatively easily] willing to engage in groupal activities and experiences. The main sp stacking could manifest in the form of an extremely reserved person, who has certain personal (mental) space so private it's very difficult (very high degree of confidence is required) for being shared, even the closest friends. This would the the "archetypal" stacking at first for strong introverts.

    Whereas an sx/sp, which is so-last, will refuse to engage in most social/gropual activities, being a natural isolacionist. Technically the most isolacionist, because although his energy levels are higher than in the case of sp/sx, this "energy" is held back due to a "defensive" creative (more externally directed) dimension. It would mostly be addressed in a personal fashion: the object of desire (a person, a project, a lifegoal, etc), that once found, will receive all this energy in the form of intense discharge (focus). sp/sx should share his/her energy more easily and in a broader sense. Higher energy but more concentrated should give to sx/sp an higher contrast than sp/sx in relation to personal distance. For outsiders, a true introvert, but once a close bond is formed, the person "explodes" with an energy level that can catch by surprise his more social friends.

    Another contrast would be a potential higher level of frustration in sx/sp than sp/sx. The "I want what I want" nature of sx-first makes the user unsatisfied with less than this, not easily accepting compromises or alternatives of any kind for the object of desire. More internal pain, suffering, due to the higher difficulty for fullfilling the critical needs of his psyche.

    What I do not clearly understand is why an sp/sx would react in the fashion described by the quoted comment (the "distorted exhibitionism"). They're supposed to be less isolationists than sx/sp, as the "external function" is not "defensive". But simultaneously, they should be by default more reserved than sx/sp, as they're sp-first. Sx/sp has the contrast of being an isolacionist who wants to meld with the object of desire, whereas an sp/sx would keep an higher barrier between himself an such object. It seems an sx/sp should share more easily his essence once opening up, and this include the dark aspects of the soul.

    This being said, I find the imageniery showed in the sp/sx thread somehow a bit dirturbing and quite less appealing than in the case of sx/sp thread. And by the way, they have a sort of strong Ni-ish aura (more in a beta fashion than gamma one methinks).

    Regarding how different stackings interact with each other, the "reverse stacking" is supposed to be "the conflictor" whereas the "dual" would be simultaneously the "identical" (same stacking). If this is correct and the people referred in the Pinterest link contained in the first quote are accurately typed, then this is another clue for picking sx/sp in my case. They have an extremely similar facial expression when compared to my own. I find the so/sp examples particularly disgusting, repulsive, more than so/sx. Nicole Kidman seems hollow, substanceless (regardless it's quite possible she's LII), Wes Bentley will eat your children, Blavatsky seems what she was, a cult leader, and that woman Fiona Apple... I do not know even how to describe the repulsion I feel looking at her pictures.

    Despite of this, I suspect the combo of two sp/sx could be more troublesome than it seems. Not due to "natural repusion" (this is not the case), but because the natural intensity could magnify potential conflicts.

    Considering the "Ni resemblance" that sp/sx imagery has, I wonder how it could be perceived by sx/sp from different sociotypes and enneatypes. For example, is it possible that a LII (4D Ni) sx/sp will "tolerate/digest" sp/sx essence more easily than an ILE sx/sp (Ni ignoring)?

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    There was another thread, not long ago, about this too and I am trying to find it. I am a bit repulsed by some of the stuff posted in the sp/sx thread. It all seems so "dirty" in contrast but I do not consider the sp/sx in my life as "dirty". They are pretty stable influences on me and, in general, I do not find them or their interests repulsive.

    I am not sure if I would use the sp/sx quoted portion as reference material when trying to decide between the two.

    How did Marilyn Monroe get typed so/sp on that pinterest link??? That seems completely off to type her sx last.

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    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    • The strongest stacking is supposed to to be the most deeply rooted in the psyche. Due to this, it's not so [externally] obvious as you could expect for it, as it's "too personal" so to speak. It belongs to the user and it's for the user, not for other people (directly). The second and last stacking are less rooted and therefore more openly exposed. As the last one is too weak, all thing equals the sencond one would be the "most visible" or superfically apparent. But once you're closer enough to a particular person and intimacy could be more openly shared, you will notice that the strongest impulses lives in another dimension of the person's psyche.
    IME the first instinct isn't really too 'personal' to be overtly expressed, as much as it simply operates the most actively without the person realizing it. It's more an unconscious way of life that rarely if ever gets challenged by the individual. You know the old joke about the one fish saying "nice water today," and the other fish responding "wtf is water?" Yeah, that.

    The second instinct operates in a much more psychologically tangible way. Each instinct stack consciously creates specific goals based on the second instinct more than the primary, so they'll more actively work towards those desires with the primary instinct acting as subtext and a deeper modus operandi.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    • A simple comparsion of this effect could be socionics leading versus creative function. Creative is weaker, but it's also the main way of interacting with the external world.
    I'd probably say the second instinct is less neurotic than the first, not necessarily weaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    This "contradiction" will cause unexpected results. For example, an sp/so would be more social than assumed, [relatively easily] willing to engage in groupal activities and experiences. The main sp stacking could manifest in the form of an extremely reserved person, who has certain personal (mental) space so private it's very difficult (very high degree of confidence is required) for being shared, even the closest friends. This would the the "archetypal" stacking at first for strong introverts.
    I've noticed this in sp/sos too, especially the IXXx sp/sos I know. They come off as initially pretty flat and unreactive, but once you get them around friends they come to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Whereas an sx/sp, which is so-last, will refuse to engage in most social/gropual activities, being a natural isolacionist.
    This is a bit overblown IMO. The last instinct isn't usually an active point of contention for any stacking, it's just prioritized the least mentally. Sx/Sps don't actively reject the social aspects of the human condition as much as they just forget about it, or are much more willing to let that side of life run dry for longer. In a way the last instinct is actually the least neurotic, since the goals of that instinct are the least focused on of the bunch.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Another contrast would be a potential higher level of frustration in sx/sp than sp/sx. The "I want what I want" nature of sx-first makes the user unsatisfied with less than this, not easily accepting compromises or alternatives of any kind for the object of desire. More internal pain, suffering, due to the higher difficulty for fullfilling the critical needs of his psyche.
    Again this sounds pretty melodramatic. I don't think any instinct can be defined by the level of emotional torment they subject themselves to.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    What I do not clearly understand is why an sp/sx would react in the fashion described by the quoted comment (the "distorted exhibitionism"). They're supposed to be less isolationists than sx/sp, as the "external function" is not "defensive". But simultaneously, they should be by default more reserved than sx/sp, as they're sp-first. Sx/sp has the contrast of being an isolacionist who wants to meld with the object of desire, whereas an sp/sx would keep an higher barrier between himself an such object. It seems an sx/sp should share more easily his essence once opening up, and this include the dark aspects of the soul.
    IME the psychological exhibitionism that sp/sxs perform is pretty flash-in-the-pan. The secondary instinct shows itself on the surface for only a select portion of the time, a much more consciously displayed and pursued mode of being than the primary.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    This being said, I find the imageniery showed in the sp/sx thread somehow a bit dirturbing and quite less appealing than in the case of sx/sp thread. And by the way, they have a sort of strong Ni-ish aura (more in a beta fashion than gamma one methinks).
    To be fair a lot of that imagery in the sp/sx thread was highly influenced by lungs' visual aesthetic, and I think a lot of people picked up on that and ran with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Regarding how different stackings interact with each other, the "reverse stacking" is supposed to be "the conflictor" whereas the "dual" would be simultaneously the "identical" (same stacking). If this is correct and the people referred in the Pinterest link contained in the first quote are accurately typed, then this is another clue for picking sx/sp in my case. They have an extremely similar facial expression when compared to my own.
    Pics pls

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Despite of this, I suspect the combo of two sp/sx could be more troublesome than it seems. Not due to "natural repusion" (this is not the case), but because the natural intensity could magnify potential conflicts.
    Nah, sp/sxs usually have the strongest respect for each other's personal space (unless they hate each other I guess)

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Considering the "Ni resemblance" that sp/sx imagery has, I wonder how it could be perceived by sx/sp from different sociotypes and enneatypes. For example, is it possible that a LII (4D Ni) sx/sp will "tolerate/digest" sp/sx essence more easily than an ILE sx/sp (Ni ignoring)?
    See my earlier response re: the sp/sx thread.
    Last edited by Galen; 06-12-2015 at 06:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It all seems so "dirty" in contrast but I do not consider the sp/sx in my life as "dirty". They are pretty stable influences on me and, in general, I do not find them or their interests repulsive.
    Well the imaginery presented in the sp/sx thread seems a bit "weird", but I was not considering them "respulsive" in the sense of causing discomfort onto me (this seems to be the case of sosp if most of them are accurately typed in the Pinterest link).

    I am not sure if I would use the sp/sx quoted portion as reference material when trying to decide between the two.
    Agree. I have compated a lot of their characteristics not just this "exhibitionism" alone. I would say that sx/sp seems to fit quite better, but I'm not completely sure.

    How did Marilyn Monroe get typed so/sp on that pinterest link??? That seems completely off to type her sx last.
    True, sounds a bit odd.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    There was another thread, not long ago, about this too and I am trying to find it. I am a bit repulsed by some of the stuff posted in the sp/sx thread. It all seems so "dirty" in contrast but I do not consider the sp/sx in my life as "dirty". They are pretty stable influences on me and, in general, I do not find them or their interests repulsive.
    do you mean all the dismemberment images? dismemberment isn't really my thing either, and i currently self-type sp/sx.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    IME the first instinct isn't really too 'personal' to be overtly expressed, as much as it simply operates the most actively without the person realizing it. It's more an unconscious way of life that rarely if ever gets challenged by the individual. You know the old joke about the one fish saying "nice water today," and the other fish responding "wtf is water?" Yeah, that.

    The second instinct operates in a much more psychologically tangible way. Each instinct stack consciously creates specific goals based on the second instinct more than the primary, so they'll more actively work towards those desires with the primary instinct acting as subtext and a deeper modus operandi.
    I see. More unconscious then. I suspect that if this is the case, the user would be more "vulnerable" to the main stacking dimension and its needs. Less consciously aware of it >> less consciously aware of how to properly satify its needs >> a sort of hunger that you do not understand where it comes from, you only feel it. A "pure instinct" or "id" in the Freudian sense, versus the second stacking which would be a more "sublimated/conscious" instinct or "ego".

    The fish...

    I'd probably say the second instinct is less neurotic than the first, not necessarily weaker.
    If by neurotic you mean "it never switches off" then this points to sx-first in my case.

    This is a bit overblown IMO. The last instinct isn't usually an active point of contention for any stacking, it's just prioritized the least mentally. Sx/Sps don't actively reject the social aspects of the human condition as much as they just forget about it, or are much more willing to let that side of life run dry for longer. In a way the last instinct is actually the least neurotic, since the goals of that instinct are the least focused on of the bunch.
    I see. I was using more or less the correlation first-second-last to "leading-creative-polr" (as an analogy, I did not mean that they correspond in such way to Socionics type as I know they refer to a different dimension) . Maybe the last one would work better as a sort of "DS" then...

    Again this sounds pretty melodramatic. I don't think any instinct can be defined by the level of emotional torment they subject themselves to.
    I guess so. Generally speaking my original words probably do not work, but I said that considering the sx/sp and sxp/sx contrast; sx/sp is aparently described in such fashion.

    IME the psychological exhibitionism that sp/sxs perform is pretty flash-in-the-pan. The secondary instinct shows itself on the surface for only a select portion of the time, a much more consciously displayed and pursued mode of being than the primary.
    That seems to be the key, makes sense.

    To be fair a lot of that imagery in the sp/sx thread was highly influenced by lungs' visual aesthetic, and I think a lot of people picked up on that and ran with it.
    The first thing that came to my mind after seeing it was the youtuber Cyriak. His videos are somehow "insane" although entertaining. If you do not know him, take a look:



    This is one is quite mild considering many of his work.

    Pics pls
    I'm not in the mood of posting pics of me right now (maybe by PM). But if you agree that "Nikolai Levchenko" (top left in the Pinterest link) and "Vasili the INTJ" (top right) are good representatives of sx/sp facial expression, mine is quite similar (particularly compared with Vasili, although I tend to look even angrier). I had several pictures posted in my type-me thread; I have deleted them but maybe you remeber how my face looks like.

    Nah, sp/sxs usually have the strongest respect for each other's personal space (unless they hate each other I guess)
    You probably meant "sx/sp". And good point. If a strong conflict arises...



    [EDIT]
    No, the last stacking should still work a bit closer to "PoLR" than "DS". If not, the "reverse stacking is the least compatible" would not make sense. Even if this does not imply a total rejection of this dimension.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 06-12-2015 at 11:38 PM.

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    sp/sx's are more naturally in their own world, and their insularity is compensated for by a certain degree of receptivity, though this can come and go depending on mood, and the latter can carry a certain level of... existential detachment, which syn-flow types will usually find discordant. sx/sp otoh is a little more internally conflicted, like they can never fully decide whether to stay within their boundaries or pursue an object of interest. an sp/sx would likely find an sx/sp to be a bit 'much' at times, maybe somewhat too emotionally demanding, while an sx/sp would find an sp/sx to be somewhat reassuring, but not quite 'alive' enough.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    The first thing that came to my mind after seeing it was the youtuber Cyriak. His videos are somehow "insane" although entertaining. If you do not know him, take a look:



    This is one is quite mild considering many of his work.
    I'm well-versed in the eye fuckery of Cyriak. From what little I've seen of his actual person, I would guess so/sp for him.



    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    I'm not in the mood of posting pics of me right now (maybe by PM). But if you agree that "Nikolai Levchenko" (top left in the Pinterest link) and "Vasili the INTJ" (top right) are good representatives of sx/sp facial expression, mine is quite similar (particularly compared with Vasili, although I tend to look even angrier). I had several pictures posted in my type-me thread; I have deleted them but maybe you remeber how my face looks like.
    Talk is cheap, give me your face.




    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    No, the last stacking should still work a bit closer to "PoLR" than "DS". If not, the "reverse stacking is the least compatible" would not make sense. Even if this does not imply a total rejection of this dimension.
    It's probably easier to think of the instinct as a sequence of internal priorities, not a rigid structure where each instinct in the order serves some esoteric function.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

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    It's pretty cool

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    do you mean all the dismemberment images? dismemberment isn't really my thing either, and i currently self-type sp/sx.
    Yeah some things just really creep me out. Mostly things like bugs, especially worms and any kind of rotting/decay. I want to burn that stuff up and purify it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I'm well-versed in the eye fuckery of Cyriak. From what little I've seen of his actual person, I would guess so/sp for him.
    Well I have not seen any interview of him or any other kind of personal information, so I'm not assuring an actual type. I just said the imaginery of his work somehow resembles what has been posted in the sp/sx thread. Which does not imply he has to belong to it, of course.

    Talk is cheap, give me your face.
    Very well. For a brief amount of time, I'll make some pictures available. [DELETED]

    The most recent ("happy face") is an exception to the rule as I have serious troubles similing to the camera. Included for contrast.


    It's probably easier to think of the instinct as a sequence of internal priorities, not a rigid structure where each instinct in the order serves some esoteric function.
    Imo you're misinterpreting my words here, as I specifically used quotation marks for a reason. The "socionics analogy" was intended to be just that, an analogy for easily describing this phenomenon with the known nomenclature used for another one. I'm not trying to build a sort of "complex framework" for instincts now (in case you're thinking this), as I see them as fluid and flexible as you probably do.

    But even if they are just a priority, this could be caused by several reasons. It seems you think it's a simple as "you ignore more/pay less attention" to the last one, it is less important [needed and/or liked]. But if it's less liked this also means it's more disliked, hence my point.

    I guess multiple options are possible here. Someone who is less polarized and has reasonable levels of all of its intincts would be fit well in your description. For a more polarized user, the last instint could start becoming closer to this sort of "pseudo-PoLR".

    But there's a fact (apparently, according to the descriptions I've read to this moment): reverse stackings are the least compatible. You have a potential alternative case, and this would be reverse as the most compatible. Things seem to work according to the first situation, not the second. So this have to mean something. It seems there is an higher rejection for the last slacking than just "it's not as good as the others". And simultaneously, an higher need and acceptation for the dominant one.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 06-15-2015 at 06:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Very well. For a brief amount of time, I'll make some pictures available. Dropbox link.

    The most recent ("happy face") is an exception to the rule as I have serious troubles similing to the camera. Included for contrast.
    Thank you for your bravery. So far I'm seeing So >>> Sx, So/Sp sticks out as a first impression.


    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Imo you're misinterpreting my words here, as I specifically used quotation marks for a reason. The "socionics analogy" was intended to be just that, an analogy for easily describing this phenomenon with the known nomenclature used for another one. I'm not trying to build a sort of "complex framework" for instincts now (in case you're thinking this), as I see them as fluid and flexible as you probably do.
    In this case then sure, the the last instinct is probably closer to socionics PoLR than DS.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    But even if they are just a priority, this could be caused by several reasons. It seems you think it's a simple as "you ignore more/pay less attention" to the last one, it is less important [needed and/or liked]. But if it's less liked this also means it's more disliked, hence my point.
    I guess both of these qualities are literally equivalent to each other, but "dislike more" implies an active attempt at rejecting the perceived stimulus. "Like less" could just as easily be a neutral statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    I guess multiple options are possible here. Someone who is less polarized and has reasonable levels of all of its intincts would be fit well in your description. For a more polarized user, the last instint could start becoming closer to this sort of "pseudo-PoLR".
    A lot of it depends on individual levels of emotional well-being I guess. If you've got an highly sheltered and misanthropic sp/sx, they're gonna seem more virulently anti-So than one who's more well-adjusted.

    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    But there's a fact (apparently, according to the descriptions I've read to this moment): reverse stackings are the least compatible. You have a potential alternative case, and this would be reverse as the most compatible. Things seem to work according to the first situation, not the second. So this have to mean something. It seems there is an higher rejection for the last slacking than just "it's not as good as the others". And simultaneously, an higher need and acceptation for the dominant one.
    Inverse stackings IME have the toughest time finding common ground with each other, so yeah the former fits much better than the latter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    Thank you for your bravery. So far I'm seeing So >>> Sx, So/Sp sticks out as a first impression.
    It it just an impression you get from the pictures? (understanding as such a subjective "sensation" and therefore not suitable for analysis) Or there are "tangible" quialities in those pictures we can discuss?

    I guess nothing is impossible, but so-first would contradict everything I've observed about myself during my whole life... For example, I hate groups of people, the bigger the group the more I refuse engaging in this "collective".

    Before you will point this is a typical introverted behavior (I concur) take into consideration that this is true even when I use comparable introverts as a contrast. They are... well introverts so they behave accordingly. But they still can, with certain difficulty and bit of external help, engage in collective forms of behavior. I just feel extremely uncomfortable with this, and tend to "angrily" refuse doing this. I's not just shyness it's... how to say. I feel (subjective perception here) like groupal behavior implies diluting myself in a bigger entity whose nature has nothing to with me. The collective is like "one with the strength of many", you cannot negotiate with it, you cannot reason with it; you're supposed to submit to it and integrate in it, and this feels like "killing your self, your essence, your individuality" in the process. You stop being you and start becoming just another disposable element of this "thing". This refusal extends beyond just simple groupal activities. I dislike engaging in typical forms of cultural expressions from my own country. Not that I try to "destroy" this culture of see it inherently worse (which is not the case), I just dislike folklore/customs/traditions and these kind of things in general. Everytime I express this disliking (as a personal opinion, without being disrespectful with those people who actually want to engage in societal forms of expression) and any other denizen says "but you're Spanish, it's your culture" I feel the impulse to punch his/her face repeatedly...

    In one-to-one interaction [or small groups] it's much more an relationship between peers, between equals. You're not simply expected to conform, to intergrate. You choose to be in it, and you do it freely, according to your nature, contributing as you are without compromising your core self, your essence. I can behave quite energetically in these cases, and many times I end "steamrolling" my friends when conversating, for example.

    The transition between the two modes is quite more abrupt in my case than in those clearcut LIIs and ILIs I know. This is consistent with sx>so. I remember a conflict I had here with another LII and as a sort of "insult" described my posts as "passionate" (which is not untrue, just pointing out how I am perceived even by fellow introverts).

    This is just one example, but there are many other behavoral aspects that fits in what I've read about sx/sp, and I cannot pinpoint anything that could suggest so/sp. Not saying that I necessarily have to be sx/sp, but so-first... I see this quite unlikely. At least we agree about sp-second (and therefore my most "visible" trait).

    [EDIT]
    I'm curious. How would you tipe Fiona Apple (found in so/sp Pinterest gallery)? Google images link. I feel a particularly high repulsion looking at her pictures.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 06-14-2015 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Telling Apart sx/sp vs sp/sx

    When typing yourself how do you tell the two apart?
    LSI-Se 836 Sp/Sx

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    Personally it was a no brainer for me, typing myself as self preservational first. The self preservational instinct is something, that I feel very close to. Idk for you, just do whatever you want. Idk maybe you can read these break down of types, like for example with my enneatype: sp 1 is different than sx 1 or so 1.

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    I'm also borderline between these stackings. I'm not at all concerned with "saving for a rainy day" which seems to be the theme of sp, but I wouldn't say that my life is loose and chaotic either. So yeah, I would also appreciate it if someone can elaborate the differences between these stackings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSI Stripper View Post
    When typing yourself how do you tell the two apart?
    You are between 8 sp/sx and 8 sx/sp specifically?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    You are between 8 sp/sx and 8 sx/sp specifically?
    Yes
    LSI-Se 836 Sp/Sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSI Stripper View Post
    Yes
    How do you relate to each?

    I did have the same problem

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    How do you relate to each?

    I did have the same problem
    Good question! I would say I'm SP first, because I have a brick wall around me, no one can gauge my feelings, but behind the wall is a burning furnace of emotion and agony lmao. But, other people on the net are like "oh you're sx/sp and very feisty for an LSI you must be ESI sx/sp..." It's like I'm trapped in a hell only I know about and other people are just getting a stoic chick with a blank face. I highly value taking care or material matters like shopping, saving money, organizing my stuff, diet & exercise, but sometimes I give up on all those things because of my "feelings" and I'll do nothing but binge on food and netflix and depressing music. I'm not sure if that answered your question at all lol
    LSI-Se 836 Sp/Sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSI Pole Ninja View Post
    Good question! I would say I'm SP first, because I have a brick wall around me, no one can gauge my feelings, but behind the wall is a burning furnace of emotion and agony lmao. But, other people on the net are like "oh you're sx/sp and very feisty for an LSI you must be ESI sx/sp..." It's like I'm trapped in a hell only I know about and other people are just getting a stoic chick with a blank face. I highly value taking care or material matters like shopping, saving money, organizing my stuff, diet & exercise, but sometimes I give up on all those things because of my "feelings" and I'll do nothing but binge on food and netflix and depressing music. I'm not sure if that answered your question at all lol
    You don't come off as ESI to me and btw that about you being feisty is very shallow "reasoning" to type you as that. Anything else that you see as sx in yourself?

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    [...] "saving for a rainy day" which seems to be the theme of sp [...]
    This made me think, what do I personally connect with the sp-instinct. What do I actually see as sp themes. Yeah ‚ saving for a rainy day‘. I was once reading this novel ‚The Road‘ by Cormac McCarthy. It‘s basically father and son trying to get along under the most difficult circumstances. ‚Saving for rainy day‘ is the feeling for me of ‚Do you have enough resources, do you have enough left, that you can draw from, when it comes hard on hard‘ (~ concern about resources, having enough/fear of scarcity). Resources can be money, but it can also be something different, something inside. There was this part, where they walk on and on in the book and the father has this memory, about his wife and it basically goes like this:

    “From daydreams on the road there was no waking. He plodded on. He could remember everything of her save her scent. Seated in a theatre with her beside him leaning forward listening to the music. Gold scrollwork and sconces and the tall columnar folds of the drapes at either side of the stage. She held his hand in her lap and he could feel the tops of her stockings through the thin stuff of her summer dress. Freeze this frame. Now call down your dark and your cold and be damned.

    Now call down your dark and cold and be damned. I thought that was a cool line (kind of encompasses the personality gets energy part for me).

    ~ instincts are "the intelligence of life" -- intelligence of billions of years of evolution
    ~ personality is an activity; instincts are where the personality gets energy for that activity
    ~ ego issues feel like life and death because the activity of the ego is "plugged into" the instincts
    ~ instinctual matters feel non-negotiable / these are where the ego puts its foot down. ***


    There was this film. I stumbled upon it, because it was mentioned in one book. Seven Beauties. Like there is this guy in concentration camp and there is this concentration camp guard. He seduces her and sleeps with her, in order to survive. I was really shocked, impacted by that (like everytime with things like that, it stirs sth. in me, my own sp-angst?). Like it’s horrible and terrifying, but it’s like how it just can be (history has shown that), that humans are just animals trying to survive and I don’t feel like I’m getting super weird here. I mean you just need to look at the streets, just need to watch the news. Self preservational instinct (‚intelligence of life‘ – intelligence of billions of years of evolution).

    Infractions in the sp area are just something that go to the core for me (issues feel like life and death, non negotionable). Like when people don‘t have enough food. Like when mothers cannot feed their children and they are basically holding a skeleton of a human in their arms and idk... Also like when people don’t have a home. I mean sleeping on the streets in winter and having to be on watch, not to be beaten up or something else is going to be done to you. For me it’s like the terrifying truth. I mean there are examples over examples from everything that goes on in the world. That’s why for me when you have like food, when you are safe, when you have a cool home. That’s like awesome.

    More here:
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/showthread.php/41782-Instinct-workshop-notes-sp-so-sx***

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSI Pole Ninja View Post
    I highly value taking care or material matters like shopping, saving money, organizing my stuff, diet & exercise, but sometimes I give up on all those things because of my "feelings" and I'll do nothing but binge on food and netflix and depressing music.
    sp on both counts. imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    You don't come off as ESI to me and btw that about you being feisty is very shallow "reasoning" to type you as that. Anything else that you see as sx in yourself?
    Agreed. Let's see, SX because I'm introverted with an SO blindspot, I'm very intense and I have a weakness for soulmates and earth shattering sex and I go crazy when I fail a relationship. I listen to intense emotional rock & grunge music and relate to it, I write really intense music that only wrist cutters would like lol.
    LSI-Se 836 Sp/Sx

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    Quote Originally Posted by LSI Pole Ninja View Post
    Agreed. Let's see, SX because I'm introverted with an SO blindspot, I'm very intense and I have a weakness for soulmates and earth shattering sex and I go crazy when I fail a relationship. I listen to intense emotional rock & grunge music and relate to it, I write really intense music that only wrist cutters would like lol.
    I'm sp/sx and I relate to this.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    @Nymeria I checked out that link you posted and I found it very informative. After reading more I think the possibility me being Sx-last might not be entirely out of the questions. I do often get the feeling like I'm stuck in rut is described in having Sp-first. Perhaps my sp manifest more as me being a homebody, which I very much am. It also sounds like being soc-last is more about being overly pragmatic and not valuing fun for the sake of having fun rather then not hanging with people on a regular basis. (which is the result of my sp wanting to stay at home)

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