Type 1 - Leading, Leading
, Leading
Type 2 - Leading or Creative, Leading or Creative
Type 3 - Leading, Leading
Type 4 - Leading, Leading
Type 5 - Leading
Type 6 - Any type
Type 7 - Leading
Type 8 - Leading
Type 9: Leading, Leading
I think those fit. But I think I'm missing some...I don't know...
That makes sense. Are those the most common for each type?
Ezra, you have forgotten the most prototypical of 6s -- the ISFj.
Shit of course.
Also, I retract the 8w7 example - ESTp is definitely more likely. Itīs obvious. Iīll probably continue to edit this over and over as my socionics understanding deepens. For example, where I once thought it was possible for an 8 to be ENTj, I now realise that, by definition, 8s cannot be ENTjs.
Why's that?
Textbook 6 behaviour.Originally Posted by Wikisocion
The individual actively pursues his external goals, but regularly experiences periods of doubt and hesitation where he needs prodding, a strong push, or forceful support from others to continue onward in the direction he has chosen.
The individual likes to be involved in competitive and challenging endeavors and to see his will and personal power develop as he overcomes obstacles together with other people. However, he depends on others to provide the gusto and motivation for these endeavors.
What about their EJ temperament and Te dominance?
Yes, I agree with that, but the only reason I stopped considering ENTj was because a) Slacker Mom said I was "Dripping with
She's referring to why you think they can't be 8s. Using the 6th function as evidence is not totally legit.Yes, I agree with that, but the only reason I stopped considering ENTj was because a) Slacker Mom said I was "Dripping with
ENTj's can definitely be Eights. Personal Experience, man.
Without going to in-depth, one of Eight's main motivations is to be in control of the environment. That translate very easily to Leading
Another Motivation of Eight is to not be Emotionally Vulnerable, Or Vulnerable in any way, This again translates easily to Leading
And there is no possible way for an ENTp to be a type Eight. And also, It's not binary like you put... And one more, A type Six is a Type Six, Whether it's counterphobic or phobic changes with it's level... So you should treat it as the same type with the same motivations -> to find security
I think that the argument on the 6th function is half-baked to say the least.She's referring to why you think they can't be 8s. Using the 6th function as evidence is not totally legit.Yes, I agree with that, but the only reason I stopped considering ENTj was because a) Slacker Mom said I was "Dripping with
But anyway, I don't think that the Enneagram works well with everyone, because I consider it sometimes useful but ultimately inferior to socionics. I think 8 means focus on both
The disagreement I have with those that say that Gamma NTs are 6 is on
Those Gamma NTs who are typing themselves as 6 should take a closer look at how the levels of health proceed and see if they still think that's how they would go.
Apart from that, again, I have no intention with getting too much into that discussion because I was always the first to admit that I don't really identify well with any of the Enneagram types, not in the way I do with LIE.
Yes, that makes sense imo.Without going to in-depth, one of Eight's main motivations is to be in control of the environment. That translate very easily to Leading
Another Motivation of Eight is to not be Emotionally Vulnerable, Or Vulnerable in any way, This again translates easily to Leading
Re: Enneagram/Socionics Correlation
I have bolded those I think make the least sense as being the most typical correlation:
What bullshit. The only bit I agree about is the last bit about 6s.ENTj's can definitely be Eights. Personal Experience, man.
Without going to in-depth, one of Eight's main motivations is to be in control of the environment. That translate very easily to Leading
Another Motivation of Eight is to not be Emotionally Vulnerable, Or Vulnerable in any way, This again translates easily to Leading
And there is no possible way for an ENTp to be a type Eight. And also, It's not binary like you put... And one more, A type Six is a Type Six, Whether it's counterphobic or phobic changes with it's level... So you should treat it as the same type with the same motivations -> to find security
If youīre going to treat the ENTjīs 6th function as something that correlates well with oneīs being an 8, I am going to reopen my possibility of being an ENTj. But there is no way you can disregard a function when trying to correlate EType with socionics type. Yes, 8 may correlate very well with the other 7 functions. But it does NOT correlate with the 6th function; hence, one cannot be an ENTj 8.
As someone who is relatively experienced with the Enneagram, Iīm going to say that thereīs no way you can disregard it as something that is inferior to socionics. It has something that socionics lacks - self-development. Yes, perhaps the Enneagram as we know it was developed by "feeling types", but the individualistic elements of it appeals to me much more than this collective, "working togetherness" of socionics. The only reason I think of being unable to depend on myself now is thanks to socionics. However, I do appreciate the ideas, especially if theyīre founded on scientific theory. Enneagram to me is a theory that is just that - a theory - and it just happens to work very well.
Expat, you have to look at the whole picture. Itīs not about looking at each type in major detail to find your type. Because itīs not scientifically proven, you have to take it as a whole. Look at the nine types. We are all some of them. But which is most like you? Which one strikes you as being closest to yourself? Maybe, Iīm willing to admit it, maybe you are indeed a strange 8w9 who experience doubt and hesitation, and likes overcoming challenges together with others. But I find it extremely hard to believe that ANY 8, regardless of wing, could have this kind of mentality. To me, the 6th function of ENTj describes perfectly the counterphobic 6w5. It is so compatible with it. More compatible than with 8w9.
Re: Enneagram/Socionics Correlation
Yeah, Iīve retracted the 8w7 one. It was stupid. Perhaps the 8w9 one is also a far cry. But 6w5 as being ENTj I will never back down on. It is so true. I also think INFj correlates very well with type 4. And how can you disregard ESTj as being typical of any 1? It is the archetypal 1. Using YOURīS (and Rickīs) delta quadra descriptions, plus the function ordering, plus the idea of the EJ temperament, you can only logically conclude that ESTj is most like 1. I can see it being a very common type manifesting itself in types 1, 3 and 8 only. In fact, perhaps ESTj correlates best with 8 as well.I have bolded those I think make the least sense as being the most typical correlation:
How are INTjs like the "go getter" depicted in the 8 descriptions?
I'm not knowledgeable about the ennegram, but I see INTjs as "go getters". If someone tells me he/she thinks I'm lazy and live off my husband and ought to get a "real job" and "contribute something", 9 out of 10 times it's an INTj. The other time it's an ESFj.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
My point is that if ENTjs "can't" be 8's because Se is their 6th function, I fail to see how someone with a Se PoLR could be an 8.
Ahhh I see. Fair enough.My point is that if ENTjs "can't" be 8's because Se is their 6th function, I fail to see how someone with a Se PoLR could be an 8.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
I told you, I retracted that. But 8w9s are different to 8w7s, and are less "go getter". I certainly arenīt. Thatīs why Iīm having a hard time winging myself at the moment.
Itīs not so much the fact that ENTjs canīt be 8s because of their 6th function being Se, itīs how Se is that doesnīt correlate to being an 8. 8s virtually never have periods of doubt and hesitation. So how could an 8 be an ENTj? Yes, perhaps they like to overcome challenges with their willpower like ENTjs, but why even bother to include the fact that they like to do it with others? 8s are independent people. Others as a kind of support are of no consequence to their doing something.My point is that if ENTjs "can't" be 8's because Se is their 6th function, I fail to see how someone with a Se PoLR could be an 8.
The Enneagram doesn't go well with well-defined behavior. You can say " An 8 is strongly motivated to deny and resist any periods of doubt and hesitation" but you can't say that they will have no periods of doubt and hesitation. Enneagram is about motivations , not behavior. And when people try to attach well-defined behavior to it, that's where the misconceptions come in.Itīs not so much the fact that ENTjs canīt be 8s because of their 6th function being Se, itīs how Se is that doesnīt correlate to being an 8. 8s virtually never have periods of doubt and hesitation. So how could an 8 be an ENTj? Yes, perhaps they like to overcome challenges with their willpower like ENTjs, but why even bother to include the fact that they like to do it with others? 8s are independent people. Others as a kind of support are of no consequence to their doing something.My point is that if ENTjs "can't" be 8's because Se is their 6th function, I fail to see how someone with a Se PoLR could be an 8.
well putThe Enneagram doesn't go well with well-defined behavior. You can say " An 8 is strongly motivated to deny and resist any periods of doubt and hesitation" but you can't say that they will have no periods of doubt and hesitation. Enneagram is about motivations , not behavior. And when people try to attach well-defined behavior to it, that's where the misconceptions come in.Itīs not so much the fact that ENTjs canīt be 8s because of their 6th function being Se, itīs how Se is that doesnīt correlate to being an 8. 8s virtually never have periods of doubt and hesitation. So how could an 8 be an ENTj? Yes, perhaps they like to overcome challenges with their willpower like ENTjs, but why even bother to include the fact that they like to do it with others? 8s are independent people. Others as a kind of support are of no consequence to their doing something.My point is that if ENTjs "can't" be 8's because Se is their 6th function, I fail to see how someone with a Se PoLR could be an 8.
Re: Enneagram/Socionics Correlation
Agreed.
Yes, that was well put, but in my experience, a typeīs behaviour manifests itself BECAUSE OF its core fixation.
Donīt think you can escape this, Joy. If you think you are an ENTj 8, think again. Expat has given a half-arsed conclusion that he doesnīt really consider himself as any type, but I know heīs a 6w5. You know the Enneagram and there is no fucking way you can justify your being an ENTj 8 with some pretty flimsy argument that was put well. Expatīs point about the fact that my 6th function argument doesnīt hold well is too weak. You cannot disregard a function. Every function matters in a type. I canīt debate your being ENTj, because I am lacking in socionics knowledge. You are far superior in this field to me. But using all my inductive reasoning, if you think youīre ENTj, you are not an 8. Perhaps you are an 8, and therefore, you are not ENTj. Choose one.
The thing about what you said about Se in ENTj's is that they're not always like that (in fact, they're usually not)... overall, they're about as much of a go-getter and high achiever as any other type, and more so than most. They can have brief periods of doubt when they're at their weakest though, which isn't what they're like most of the time. Keep in mind that they can and will find the Se input they need from other people or from their environment. Se is part of who they are.
I'm not saying you're DEFINITELY wrong... just that the theories don't correlate well enough to draw such definitive conclusions. If enneagram doesn't allow for any occasional fluctuations in one's behavior, then I guess I was right about it before...
Aristocracy? Just wondering.
Are you taking the piss? Iīm an all-out commoner who hates his position in society. Or rather the people that I would be associated with by those asshole bourgeoisie.Aristocracy? Just wondering.
Then why did Kristiina go "rofl at 8 being ENFj. Have you see the 6th function?" Itīs the same as ENTj.
Actually, the only functions that should be seriously considered are the Ego functions. Because every other function are mainly just consequences of the strength of those two.
And something i want to address, You should consider the whole type, and not just the subtype. A 4 is a 4 whether it's 4w5 or 4w3. An 8 is an 8 whether it's a 8w7 or an 8w9, same core motivations.
And well yeah, A types behavior comes from it's motivations...That's so obvious, it's best to be left unsaid. That's what the enneagram is for. But you can't say a 5 will go into a room and instantly withdraw.
Anyway from Personality Types:
" Basically, Eights are driven by the fear of being dominated, harmed, or controlled by others."
That can be translated as Hidden Agenda
yupActually, the only functions that should be seriously considered are the Ego functions. Because every other function are mainly just consequences of the strength of those two.
And something i want to address, You should consider the whole type, and not just the subtype. A 4 is a 4 whether it's 4w5 or 4w3. An 8 is an 8 whether it's a 8w7 or an 8w9, same core motivations.
And well yeah, A types behavior comes from it's motivations...That's so obvious, it's best to be left unsaid. That's what the enneagram is for. But you can't say a 5 will go into a room and instantly withdraw.
Anyway from Personality Types:
" Basically, Eights are driven by the fear of being dominated, harmed, or controlled by others."
That can be translated as Hidden Agenda
There's a difference between Fe and Te dominants though. And I don't know if I agree with that statement to begin with.Then why did Kristiina go "rofl at 8 being ENFj. Have you see the 6th function?" Itīs the same as ENTj.
We've been having the same discussion at EIDB (I initiated it) and I agree with you.
Yes, good quote." Basically, Eights are driven by the fear of being dominated, harmed, or controlled by others."
That can be translated as Hidden Agenda
Yes, but an ENTj and an ENFj have the same 6th function. Just because they're different types doesn't mean you should change your interpretation of how Se manifests itself in each type. It manifests itself in the same way for each type.There's a difference between Fe and Te dominants though. And I don't know if I agree with that statement to begin with.
uh...well...only if you take out consideration for -Se vs +Se, etc.Yes, but an ENTj and an ENFj have the same 6th function. Just because they're different types doesn't mean you should change your interpretation of how Se manifests itself in each type. It manifests itself in the same way for each type.There's a difference between Fe and Te dominants though. And I don't know if I agree with that statement to begin with.
IEE 649 sx/sp cp
For fuck's sake, you cannot disregard a function when considering a type as a whole. 8 does not correlate to ENTj. End of.
Because of there different leading functions, They are completely different types. An ENTj and ENFj are similar, but with completely different views of the worlds and ideals. An ENFj can be a Type 2, Is an ENTj normally a type 2? An INFj can be a Type 2, but would an INTj normally be one?Yes, but an ENTj and an ENFj have the same 6th function. Just because they're different types doesn't mean you should change your interpretation of how Se manifests itself in each type. It manifests itself in the same way for each type.There's a difference between Fe and Te dominants though. And I don't know if I agree with that statement to begin with.
The leading Function changes everything. An Fi polr doesn't manifest itself the same way in an ESTp as it does in an ENTp. Fe polr is different for an ISTp than it is for an INTp.
Okay, have fun with that.
Funny, that, considering most socionists would agree on how Wikisocion showed how Se manifests itself in the ENTj and the ENFj.Because of there different leading functions, They are completely different types. An ENTj and ENFj are similar, but with completely different views of the worlds and ideals. An ENFj can be a Type 2, Is an ENTj normally a type 2? An INFj can be a Type 2, but would an INTj normally be one?Yes, but an ENTj and an ENFj have the same 6th function. Just because they're different types doesn't mean you should change your interpretation of how Se manifests itself in each type. It manifests itself in the same way for each type.There's a difference between Fe and Te dominants though. And I don't know if I agree with that statement to begin with.
The leading Function changes everything. An Fi polr doesn't manifest itself the same way in an ESTp as it does in an ENTp. Fe polr is different for an ISTp than it is for an INTp.
What are you talking about? That was a pathetic, empty response.Okay, have fun with that.
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