ENFj/EIE Subtypes

[machintruc]

nothing. can't remember what E4 was.

ah, six, I know what E6 is... E6 sucks! SLIs aren't that pleasant either... ummm... I won't reply to your silly little question!

However, I don't give a shitfuck about pushy people, because I don't like pushy people.

[Kristiina]

However, I don't give a shitfuck about pushy people, because I don't like pushy people.

lol, YOU are pushy.

your this post was essentially pushy. "I don't like them, I don't care about them" or even, "if they don't meet my expectations for people, they can screw themselves" or, "I don't like them, I will push them away from me." Extremely not willing to try to get along with people who don't meet your expectations... So people either behave the way you expect them to, or you'll have nothing to do with them. That IS what pushyness is all about.

[FDG]

I'm a generally helpful person, but I'm not two because I only help people who can help themselves. I think peope who expect others to help them are weak people. Helping the weak is pointless. Imagine a marathon and someone falls. Someone else stops running and helps that person and lets other people run by. I would never do that. I might slow down and see if they REALLY need help, but probably I'd just think, "tough luck, dude, try not to fall next time. " and keep running.

I'd help the person, and also catch on everybody had run by me.

[marooned]

Then you may be E5. Some Fives swing between S- and S+, especially when Intimate.

But what do you mean by being "soft-spoken" or "passive" ?

I sort of dissolve into this "actless" state... maybe it happens when it all becomes pointless, or when I'd rather be alone, or when I'm indifferent. Actually, I identify with what Kristiina was saying about just not caring... it doesn't matter... whatever... no opinion... that state. Sometimes when I become soft spoken, it's a bout of self-consciousness or expressed vulnerability, or self-doubt... in fact in those moments it might look like it's rather easy to "squish" me like a fly... but I don't think it really is.

As for how I am around my mom and sis, I think part of that is "roles". We've had a long time to establish certain roles. After my dad died, I remember being aware of an actual re-arrangement of roles because his "role" was absent, and it left a space like a vacuum. Nature of course abhors a vacuum, so things began to shift in to fill the void. I feel more comfortable being less assertive than I am around my mom and sis because I sort of feel pushed into certain roles around them... as though part of me can't be myself. Over time I think this may be becoming less so... I've noticed the dynamic between my sister and I has been changing for instance.

Anyway, as for E types, 5 was the one I identified with most after 4.

[shakealittle]

I tend to be assertive around my mom and sister and less so around everyone else... sometimes I can muster up a lot of assertiveness... other times I become extremely soft spoken and passive... but still not around my mom and sister... it confuses me.

My brother (IEI) is more assertive around my mum (ESI) and myself (LSI). I think it's because he feels comfortable enough with us to express certain things. I find him to be quite civil and maybe switiching your assertiveness on/off is a way to achieve that.

When someone who is usually indifferent speaks out, people *really* listen. They realize it would take A LOT of discomfort for you to voice your opinion. So when you do, they know the risk you're taking (your opinion must be important as you have shown in the past that being neutral is your preferred state) and because of your high degree of civility, they will think your opinion is in the interests of the group.

This is a very, very good quality to have. Use it to your advantage =)

[Kristiina]

My brother (IEI) is more assertive around my mum (ESI) and myself (LSI). I think it's because he feels comfortable enough with us to express certain things. I find him to be quite civil and maybe switiching your assertiveness on/off is a way to achieve that.

When someone who is usually indifferent speaks out, people *really* listen. They realize it would take A LOT of discomfort for you to voice your opinion. So when you do, they know the risk you're taking (your opinion must be important as you have shown in the past that being neutral is your preferred state) and because of your high degree of civility, they will think your opinion is in the interests of the group.

This is a very, very good quality to have. Use it to your advantage =)

+1

[Ezra]

Oh yeah, if I was EIE, I would be Ni subtype. It makes the most sense out of the two subtypes which are completely different to my character.

[Angel Alliterator]

I've been thinking about the distinctions between these two EIE subtypes, I frankly can relate to both.

What is the clear cut difference?

[Kristiina]

I've been thinking about the distinctions between these two EIE subtypes, I frankly can relate to both.

What is the clear cut difference?

there are none. Some people don't have subtypes, whereas some people clearly lean toward one function in their ego block.

basically Fe subtype is talkative and energetic. Lives a people-oriented extroverted life full of emotion and expression.

and Ni subtype is creative and original and somewhat goofy like strong-Ni types often are. Gets along well with people, but observes more than intervenes. Lives an emotional life full of personal forms of expression (art, writing, science, programming).

...plus there are plenty of ENFjs who do both. I consider myself a shy observer so I say I'm Ni subtype, but people here see mostly my forms of social expression (forum, wiki, chat) and say I'm Fe subtype. It's all subjective and subtypes are just an evaluation and a way to describe a person.

[ScarlettLux]

Kristiina, I am too of the opinion that you are the subtype of EIE. I feel like you are more bubbly and down to earth than I am. I consider myself the subtype as I am described by others as much more "haughty" in the way that they can be, and eccentric. Then again, you say that you come across different and more introverted in real life as compared to the forum - I relate to this, so perhaps we are both subtypes, who knows! I consistently feel "darker" than I feel dominants should be... that's probably why I avoided the EIE typing for a while. I see EIE as more conforming to society, more fitting in like ESEs.

Are or subtypes stronger in ? Well whatever the case is, I definitely know that I prefer LSI subtypes rather than LSI because they remind me too much of LIIs, whom I don't get along with very well normally.

[Kristiina]

subtype doesn't have stronger , they need more from their partner. I also prefer LSI-.

I seem bubbly, but I used to be emo goth.

[Dionysius]

subtypes are more self-sufficient in , so they're naturally more active and energetic. They need more , i.e, someone to direct their energy into something logical and organized.

subtypes are more self-sufficient in , so they're more mentally organized and logical. They need more , i.e, someone to estimulate them to activity and to raise their vital energy which is naturally lower.

Visually, subtype's eyes have a softer and smoother gaze, while subtype's eyes have a darker and colder gaze.

subtypes's movements are noble and controlled, while subtype's movements are gusty and impulsive.

Typical EIE- look:




Typical EIE- look:

[Pallas]

Well, it all depends on which subtype system you use tbh. I think contact-inert is the nicest for explaining some aspects of ITR the best (e.g. why some mirrors are just inherently hard to get along with and some of the "bad" ITRs are fine for friendships even if they're not ideal for marriages) along with ILE and ESI opera singers etc. and not making people weirdly disbalanced/mushily undefined in terms of function strength.

Also, it appears that the consensus is Fe-EIEs are bubbly and smiley and conformist while Ni-EIEs are dark and weird and mean business. Literally all the first pictures in the post above me are just social smiles and the second are I'M TOO COOL glares.

[Pallas]

I think it has more to do with limiting/empowering. EJ-Je is a limiting subtype, and IP-Je is an empowering subtype.

So

"EJ-Je describes a person who is confining oneself humbly to a strict social point of view. "

whereas

"IP-Je describes a person who is enthusiastically trying to create or affirm a new social state and balance that would create more possibilities and freedom to him- or herself. "

...Well, this confirms what I've seen earlier that it tends to correlate with "synflow" vs. "contraflow" in enneagram. The second also sounds like it has an emphasized demonstrative rather than creative only to me for sure because, well, the creative is introverted and I don't think that's going to have much to do with social states other than that it's blocked with the extraverted lead and sort of constrains the judging of the lead to that area (so ESE looks at values on a concrete level and EIE on an abstract level).

[Myst]

subtypes are more self-sufficient in , so they're naturally more active and energetic. They need more , i.e, someone to direct their energy into something logical and organized.

subtypes are more self-sufficient in , so they're more mentally organized and logical. They need more , i.e, someone to estimulate them to activity and to raise their vital energy which is naturally lower.

Visually, subtype's eyes have a softer and smoother gaze, while subtype's eyes have a darker and colder gaze.

subtypes's movements are noble and controlled, while subtype's movements are gusty and impulsive.

I'm afraid these bits don't entirely match up in a neat pattern that would always hold.

Some examples:

I know an EIE who's decently active, her movements are controlled enough though can get impulsive a bit, and definitely needs the Ti, but yet EIE-Fe doesn't fit overall for her, she's got too much Ni to be that subtype, making her a bit more flexible and unpredictable than the EIE-Fe subtype. Her gaze is more the Ni subtype gaze, too.

Another EIE I know is definitely the EIE-Fe subtype. It's not that she is more active than the first example, it's more that she's more organized, rational, controlled, including her mode of expression too. But yes, softer/smoother gaze, that fits.

I do also know more "stereotypical" EIE-Ni who does need more stimulation to activity and is more organized in her thinking than the first example.


Can I ask where you got the photos from / how the typing was decided for them? Thanks.

Also, it appears that the consensus is Fe-EIEs are bubbly and smiley and conformist while Ni-EIEs are dark and weird and mean business. Literally all the first pictures in the post above me are just social smiles and the second are I'M TOO COOL glares.

Yeah, I don't think this is entirely subtype dependent. Seems like other factors involved.

[Dionysius]

It's just a general tendency, not a rule. In typology there are no universal rules! haha. Except for the dichotomies...
There are EIE-Fe subtypes with well developed Ti, as well as EIE-Ni subtypes with a very strong Se. The better example is Cristiano Ronaldo. He is EIE-Ni with a strong Se. But we don't know. Probably because he was motivated by his father since he was a kid to be an athlete, and this made him strenghten his theoretically weak Se into a strong one. It varies a lot from person to person. The effort they put into developing some function.

If an EIE reads a lot, spends time alone, thinking deeply, naturally Ti will become stronger. It would be a shift to their inner LSI.
If an EIE goes to the gym, takes care of the appearance, gets self-confident, agressive, Se will become stronger. A shift to their inner SLE.

It can happen with both subtypes. The contradictory thing is that an EIE-Fe needs more Ti, right? So if they put effort into being thoughtful, they might become very strong in Ti. The same with EIE-Ni. They need more Se, so they might put a lot of effort in developing Se. But again, it doesn't happen always.

That's why subtypes theory is controversial. I would say there's a natural tendency, i.e, everyone is born with a genetic subtype, which is seen by gaze, physical constitution, etc. but the behavior is more variable. It's highly influenced by the environment.

About the pictures, I took the photos from google, and I typed them by experience, visual traits, and also by knowing their lives/work!

[Exodus]

I think it has more to do with limiting/empowering. EJ-Je is a limiting subtype, and IP-Je is an empowering subtype.

So

"EJ-Je describes a person who is confining oneself humbly to a strict social point of view. "

whereas

"IP-Je describes a person who is enthusiastically trying to create or affirm a new social state and balance that would create more possibilities and freedom to him- or herself. "

...Well, this confirms what I've seen earlier that it tends to correlate with "synflow" vs. "contraflow" in enneagram. The second also sounds like it has an emphasized demonstrative rather than creative only to me for sure because, well, the creative is introverted and I don't think that's going to have much to do with social states other than that it's blocked with the extraverted lead and sort of constrains the judging of the lead to that area (so ESE looks at values on a concrete level and EIE on an abstract level).

btw, I don't stand by this kind of Smilexian theory anymore.

[Chae]

EIE-Fe: Gryffindoooor!!
EIE-Ni: Slytherin~

[Pallas]

EIE-Fe: Gryffindoooor!!
EIE-Ni: Slytherin~

We all know all betas are Slytherin...

[Myst]

It's just a general tendency, not a rule. In typology there are no universal rules! haha. Except for the dichotomies...
There are EIE-Fe subtypes with well developed Ti, as well as EIE-Ni subtypes with a very strong Se. The better example is Cristiano Ronaldo. He is EIE-Ni with a strong Se. But we don't know. Probably because he was motivated by his father since he was a kid to be an athlete, and this made him strenghten his theoretically weak Se into a strong one. It varies a lot from person to person. The effort they put into developing some function.

If an EIE reads a lot, spends time alone, thinking deeply, naturally Ti will become stronger. It would be a shift to their inner LSI.
If an EIE goes to the gym, takes care of the appearance, gets self-confident, agressive, Se will become stronger. A shift to their inner SLE.

It can happen with both subtypes. The contradictory thing is that an EIE-Fe needs more Ti, right? So if they put effort into being thoughtful, they might become very strong in Ti. The same with EIE-Ni. They need more Se, so they might put a lot of effort in developing Se. But again, it doesn't happen always.

That's why subtypes theory is controversial. I would say there's a natural tendency, i.e, everyone is born with a genetic subtype, which is seen by gaze, physical constitution, etc. but the behavior is more variable. It's highly influenced by the environment.

About the pictures, I took the photos from google, and I typed them by experience, visual traits, and also by knowing their lives/work!

I see what you mean. Hmm, genetic subtype, I don't know how much of that's genes, how much of it is prenatal factors, and how much of it is the very early years of development after birth, but I do believe there's a basis in terms of how the brain gets a foundational organization that doesn't change much later (unless trauma happens to the brain). There'll still be additions on top of it later, of course, and developing the superid parts would be in line with that.

In my case I did try to develop Ni a lot having started out with a quite weak Ni and strong Se. I can see how that idea works for the EIE subtypes here.

I'm way more skeptical about the idea of the physical constitution showing the genetic subtype as you refer to it here. What do you mean by that?

[SpreeFirit]

If an EIE reads a lot, spends time alone, thinking deeply, naturally Ti will become stronger. It would be a shift to their inner LSI.
If an EIE goes to the gym, takes care of the appearance, gets self-confident, agressive, Se will become stronger. A shift to their inner SLE.

Absolutely. Present me, in contrast to myself as a teen, complete 180. Different person. Different thought patterns. I don't even really know who I used to be. I have spent a lot of time alone, isolated. There was a period of a few years where I didn't care to spend time with people. Was content being by myself. I still am, but now my Se is kicking in moreso. I understand how to understand Ti doms now, and how to have better conversations with them in general. I believe ENFj's need alone time to self-actualize.

[Olimpia]

subtypes are more self-sufficient in , so they're naturally more active and energetic. They need more , i.e, someone to direct their energy into something logical and organized.

subtypes are more self-sufficient in , so they're more mentally organized and logical. They need more , i.e, someone to estimulate them to activity and to raise their vital energy which is naturally lower.

Visually, subtype's eyes have a softer and smoother gaze, while subtype's eyes have a darker and colder gaze.

subtypes's movements are noble and controlled, while subtype's movements are gusty and impulsive.

Typical EIE- look:




Typical EIE- look:

The theory is sound, but none of those guys V.I as EIE to me, except for maybe the second one in the first row, though he rather V.Is as EIE-Ni or no subtype imo.

[Aylen]

EIE-Fe: Gryffindoooor!!
EIE-Ni: Slytherin~

vs

[Myst]

The theory is sound, but none of those guys V.I as EIE to me, except for maybe the second one in the first row, though he rather V.Is as EIE-Ni or no subtype imo.

3rd guy in 1st row is generally typed as EIE by most people afaik. 1st guy in 2nd row is also typed EIE by quite some people, I personally idk.

[Samson]

The theory is sound, but none of those guys V.I as EIE to me, except for maybe the second one in the first row, though he rather V.Is as EIE-Ni or no subtype imo.

3rd guy in 1st row is generally typed as EIE by most people afaik. 1st guy in 2nd row is also typed EIE by quite some people, I personally idk.

The second one, first row (I know you (Medusa) said he VI's like an EIE... "maybe") is the GREAT ACTOR James Spader. Or in other words the same person used as THE face for the "Hamlet, Male portrait, ENFj by Beskova" article.



And Axl Rose is totally an ENFj!!!

No comment on subtypes though. Going by that VI, I'd be EIE-Fe no question. That VI matches me so well, it's not even funny. But... Fe subtype? Not sure how I feel about that.

[Toro]

I'm not sure about this subtype thing, to be honest, I feel like one or the other depending on my mood. Sometimes I feel like I may be an IEI so maybe I'm an EIE-Ni...

[Whitespike]

oh wow.. I'm the Ni subtype 2...

How do you determine the strength of your subtype?

I'm EIE-Ni but dont know if its Ni1-2-3. Does my MBTI (INTJ) Ni strengthen my subtype weight?

[Disturbed]

Differences:
EIE-Fe are somewhat more conformist to social norms, especially EIE-Fe men. They're less emotionally expressive and much more self-controlled. They're much more objective in their decision making, they don't clearly favor one side over the other like Ni subtype does; doesn't think in terms of good and evil and their own personal preferences of one individual over another as much as the Ni subtype does (due to Ni subtype being stronger in or valuing their ignoring function more). Fe subtype is more realistic and conservative in their plans, and also knowing what's realistic to expect of people and they just say, it's not going to happen and I'm not going to push it; EIE-Ni often demand things that can't possibly be done and wind up surprised or have to change their mind several times and are less aware of their abilities and inabilities (due to stronger emotions and bad Demonstrative). At the same, time, EIE-Fe DO behave, sound, and look more like ESE-Fe; they're more social, they like parties, going to restaurant, large group fellowships a bit more. Their gait is much smoother, they're more aware of everything. EIE-Fe men seem to me to not really have a preferred dual subtype, although EIE-Fe women usually prefer LSI-Se men. EIE-Fe are more independent than EIE-Ni. EIE-Fe are better at arranging things, words, etc. EIE-Fe are more likely to be daredevils. Their sense of humor is more playful.

Both subtypes are vindictive and resistant to others' will, and really like doing things on their own terms. Despite being Ti dual seeking, neither subtype really goes along with others' logic or rationalizations, although the EIE-Fe sometimes goes along with others' directions. Still, both subtypes trust what they want to do or what other people want more than they trust anyone's explanations. Similar with LSI, many of us are by theory Fe dual seeking and Ne-PoLR, but I still can get exhausted by emotional expressions, and we will except others' explanations and act on them if they're sound and be deterred from goals regardless of subtype. I'm kind of skeptical of a kind attitude, although it may be pleasant, I prefer to keep things unemotional and objective (or maybe elegantly creative). Really, Beta ST creative function subtypes and ESI-Se work best for me for life skills and sensory emotional needs. LSI-Se listen and ask questions and trust facts and don't always press ahead if you ask them, well how am I going to do that? I don't get much impression of extraordinary rigidity and continually pressing on from LSI-Se really... many of them change their minds a lot, although not always about values/ethics, which like the SLE-Ti and the ILE-Ti, they're pretty rigid about. Unlike the Ti subtype, they usually don't get offended if you tell them something they disagree with and they're less quick to impulsively dismiss factual information or others' arguments and plans compared to an LSI-Ti. They have a more take it as it comes attitude than the LSI-Ti, LSI-Ti want everything settled right away usually.

Se subtype, however, more likely to require people to put in what's assigned regardless of an individual's disadvantages actually have less affective empathy; unlike the Ti subtype, they won't try to do everything themselves, they're more likely to walk away from or ignore the problem or continue asking questions and thinking that their understanding and knowledge base is incomplete. They tend to quantify things and see things exactly as they are, LSI-Ti makes more approximations and assumptions, thinks less clearly. Se subtype is less talkative, although the ones who are talkative don't get tired from conversations (adrianne curry is an example of an LSI-Se who doesn't get tired out from conversation) and somewhat less interested in emotionally connecting people. LSI-Se women aren't much more or much less than talkative than LSI-Se men, but LSI-Ti are still more talkative. LSI-Se men are pretty quiet, although I knew one who could've easily been mistaken for an extravert. Also, David Duke is a talkative LSI-Se male, wants a certain degree of emotional attachment to people, doesn't hide it, he really has no shame saying whatever he thinks... if he talked about things other than race you'd might think he was an ESI-Se.

Anyway, more back on topic... a good example of EIE-Fe is Bill Clinton; George W. Bush EIE-Ni... Bill Clinton had a more alpha vibe, was more open-minded and thought much less in terms of good and evil and was content to just let things happen--had the Alpha hedonism and egalitarianism a bit more and like an ESE-Fe more able to see one side while EIE-Ni have the bias, being opinionated, and blocking out information similarly to LIE-Ni. George W. Bush was the opposite subtype (EIE-Ni) and clearly favored Gamma things more--thought more in terms of personal like dislike and good/evil, militarism (favored harmony less), was more traditional, was less restrained in pursuing what he wanted and more likely to step on others, more conservative in what was allowable, didn't think things through (Ti-contemplation less valued) and preferred older things and was less hedonistic and less able to understand things and people for what they were compared to Alphas.

Anyway, duality definitely isn't for me, especially Ni subtype, no matter how beautiful some of them may be.

Thank you. Sorry.

EDIT:
One of the biggest differences is that Fe subtype doesn't see things, the world in terms of good and evil anywhere near as much.

[Whitespike]

pic me 01.jpegpic me 02.jpg guess my subtype!

[Sol]

@Whitespike

The dude on the photos seems is a model. mb ESTP

there are no subtypes in Socionics

[on a peaceful hiatus]

pic me 01.jpegpic me 02.jpg guess my subtype!

IEI with dominant or creative subtype.

https://www.wikisocion.net/en/index...._Vera_Borisova

The woman in the second pic looks IEI too. Mb normalizing

[Whitespike]

I’m EIE-Ni Dominant subtype.

[Whitespike]

My wife is EII-D

[Beautiful sky]

My wife is EII-D

EII or EIE?

[Beautiful sky]

We have two EIE at work currently
Both are hyper ish
Both ask everyone a little bit about their lives and get to know them a bit
Both recognize other’s feelings and mainly tell the ones with bad manners that they can’t talk to them the way they do when they are grumpy
Both kinda ignore their well being. One has to get checked for something specific but hasn’t yet
Both like to chit chat
Both like to joke around and it can seem like they avoid work when they don’t
Both are externally emotionally expressive and can target to understand your emotions as well
One talks about her trauma in a non emotional way but the way she does brings up your own inner emotions and makes you cry for her when she looks calm herself as she speaks. She actually did that to me and then she said “you understand this because you are a mother and something like this happening to you would make you feel bad.
One said she was a bad student always chitchatting in class goofing off joking and getting detention

Here’s how they can judge others around them:
“She hardly works to support her dad, doesn’t she feel bad for her dad? I mean he’s old shouldn’t she let him relax? But I’m not going to judge!”

“You shouldn’t blame your mother for your depression. Every time you drink you blame her death like if she didn’t die you wouldn’t be drinking! It’s up to you to better yourself.”

Or will describe other’s behavior in a judgement tone like:
“She pulls EVERYONE into drinking with her. Not on a FRIDAY or a SATURDAY… no on a Tuesday when people have to work the next day and they show up to work drunk.” She says this with such a negatively casted intonations in her voice like this is wrong and she shouldn’t do this.

“Sh shouldn’t become a supervisor! She never shows up to work!”

[Beautiful sky]

As an EII I keep out of the drama and the gossiping.

I try to love and extend my empathy to everyone at work even the one fighting her depression and addiction. I don’t usually know anyone’s business until they come to me and tell me.

[rizz]

Asked out my EIE-C boy friend on a pussy date in the city center. I hope he's okay with taking his Lexus, because it would be weird if he wanted us to take the bus