IEE-EIE and getting peeved

[yifflord]

For the most part when I get annoyed at someone for something they've said I have reasons for why I'm annoyed that I can easily justify and I have a handle on whether or not instigating debate is worth it. The 'worth it' factor usually has to do with whether or not the topic is important enough for me to put myself through the stress of potential conflict. But when any of my EIE friends (this makes me sound like I'm up to my nips in EIEs but I'm only pals with three of them) say something that I think is silly or uninformed I always get much more inflammatory and prone to instigation, even if the topic is not all that important to me. It's really silly b/c I know that if the same statement/behaviour/whatever was coming from a non-EIE friend I would not feel nearly as bothered. Sometimes just reading something personal they have written on FB that has nothing to do with me (thus I can't really disagree with it) can piss me off an unreasonable amount. In short, I get annoyed for non-justifiable reasons.

This isn't to say that I only get annoyed at EIEs for silly non-reasons, but they're the only type I get frequently frustrated at for reasons that are silly and not worth it when I step back to look at the situation. I would've chalked it up to being not type related but this is a recurring thing with otherwise very different EIEs. Around my EIE pals I have to make sure to suppress my urges to correct and criticise, otherwise I come out of it regretful and viewing my own actions as pretty cruel.

Other than that, though, I'm a big fan of EIEs. I am curious as to whether or not other IEEs experience this (b/c this could be just a me problem) and about the flipside of this as well; what are IEE-EIE relations like from the EIE perspective?

[wacey]

[songofsappho]

I don't know to what extent I can say I share this exact experience, but I do find that I have problems w EIEs at a close distance -- I don't trust them, and I'm sure they often don't adore me....

My most recent ongoing experience w an EIE began well and ended poorly, at least from my perspective.

This particular EIE was (is, to many people) charming and charismatic, and he's very intelligent and good at what he does. However, once I got to know him and understand more of what was going on in the workplace, the more I began to see that many of the things he said were not quite true in the way he presented them... he consistently presents information in the way that will make it most appealing to his listener, often skewing or outright eschewing the truth in order to gain whatever he is after at the moment, be it admiration, agreement, or material gain.

Note: I am not saying dishonesty is type-related. In fact in some cases he wasn't even being out-and-out dishonest, but for some reason I always could see through whatever he was doing and was bothered by it in the vast majority of cases -- he felt oily to me. It was like he was capable of the same things I am capable of, and of relating to people the same way, but he misused his power for evil (to phrase it in an extreme and somewhat exaggerated way... but that is how it seemed to me).

Interestingly, about the time I began to "see though" him and become disenchanted, he seemed to begin to feel and act differently toward me as well -- he even commented once that I was the only person at work he was afraid of (which caught me completely off-guard when he said it, as I'm kind of quintessentially nice, though not a pushover).



TL;DR version: At first we were intrigued by how similar we were, but several months later our relationship had all but deteriorated because neither of us trusted the other. We remained outwardly cordial (at least to each other's faces), but it was obvious we were each repulsed by the other.

[yifflord]

Interesting! How did you alter how you acted towards him after you "saw through" him and became disenchanted? I've never had the experience you've just described with EIEs, at least as far as the ones I've gotten close to go, but I've also never felt enchanted by an EIE to begin with. The only problem that seems to persist through my friendships with different EIEs is that I feel this visceral urge to nitpick.

[songofsappho]

Interesting! How did you alter how you acted towards him after you "saw through" him and became disenchanted? I've never had the experience you've just described with EIEs, at least as far as the ones I've gotten close to go, but I've also never felt enchanted by an EIE to begin with. The only problem that seems to persist through my friendships with different EIEs is that I feel this visceral urge to nitpick.

A lot of it may not have to do w socionics, but I would say that as of today neither of us particularly likes, respects, or trusts the other. We're both extremely good with people, but it feels to me at least that we operate in totally opposite ways.

[golden]

What's interesting also is that I find some IEEs irl reading things into my actions that simply aren't there. It's gone so far as an IEE just making up blatant crazy jaw-dropping stuff about me. I've encountered a lot of "this is true to my experience," but that doesn't make it objectively true, and it will seem similarly that IEE is seriously inconsistent. "No, I'd never do this." Then they do it. "Well, I see you this way." And then say the opposite thing the next week.

But overall, I don't have a massive problem with IEEs. Just here and there, where conflict is already likely, it can get ... gross.

I always say that Fi people accuse Fe people of the same things Fe people accuse Fi people of. It may look a little different from one side to the other, but it's a theme. Fake, illogical, inconsistent, untruthful, disregarding of facts, boundary issues, etc.

[songofsappho]

I always say that Fi people accuse Fe people of the same things Fe people accuse Fi people of. It may look a little different from one side to the other, but it's a theme. Fake, illogical, inconsistent, untruthful, disregarding of facts, boundary issues, etc.

Yes, this.

[yifflord]

What's interesting also is that I find some IEEs irl reading things into my actions that simply aren't there. It's gone so far as an IEE just making up blatant crazy jaw-dropping stuff about me. I've encountered a lot of "this is true to my experience," but that doesn't make it objectively true, and it will seem similarly that IEE is seriously inconsistent. "No, I'd never do this." Then they do it. "Well, I see you this way." And then say the opposite thing the next week.

Could you give me an example if you remember anything specific? I'm curious about how my actions might seem illogical/inconsistent to others without my realising, and also curious about how I might misinterpret an EIE's actions. I'm guessing it'll have to do with Ti-PoLR, but I've only experienced Ti-PoLR hits in very specific scenarios, e.g. during nerdy fantasy world-building exercises with an LII. The LII spotted contradictions in my contributions right away.

Illogical is something I can relate to as far as how I view EIEs. I've seen Te-super-ego at play and it irked me quite a bit. I can't say that I relate much to the rest of the list, but maybe I just need to lvl up with more EIEs.

[golden]

Could you give me an example if you remember anything specific? I'm curious about how my actions might seem illogical/inconsistent to others without my realising, and also curious about how I might misinterpret an EIE's actions. I'm guessing it'll have to do with Ti-PoLR, but I've only experienced Ti-PoLR hits in very specific scenarios, e.g. during nerdy fantasy world-building with an LII. The LII spotted contradictions between my contributions right away.

Illogical is something I can relate to as far as how I view EIEs. I've seen Te-ignoring at play and it irked me quite a bit. I can't say that I relate much to the rest of the list, but maybe I just need to lvl up with more EIEs.

Being given a book on children's nutrition by an IEE, the contents of which are completely nonstandard in terms of current nutritional science, and which makes pretty fantastic claims. It is self-published and though it costs forty dollars, the editorial values are rock-bottom. Worst, not one single citation backs up any of the medical claims. I return the book and express my concerns. Am told, "This is true in terms of my own experience" by IEE.

(I have my own experiences and need something more than someone else's experiences to even lightly entertain information like this, when there red flags re the quality and objectivity. It's also been given to me to persuade me to radically change my child's diet in ways that would provoke stress. Bottom line: quackery and credulity.)

Am told by an IEE that she would never leave the town she lives in, and reasons why. I have a stake in her choice. It seems to me -- body language, word choice, and logic -- that she is isn't telling the truth. Two years later she moves away.

(The honest answer would have been "I don't know." Why not just say that? In this case I could have made a bad, very important decision based on the response. Fortunately I did not trust her words.)

My response to these kinds of interpersonal disjunctions ranges from frustration, to full-on anger, to feeling less respect for the other person. Obvs in non-crucial situations it's not as big a deal.

Can think of many more things but maybe you get the idea.

[Misty]

it will seem similarly that IEE is seriously inconsistent. "No, I'd never do this." Then they do it. "Well, I see you this way." And then say the opposite thing the next week.

I'm guilty of this. Probably an irrational thing coupled with the extraversion. I think better aloud (though often think in circles in my head) and my statements are not actually meant to be categorical statements of fact... rather they are exploratory thoughts, and saying them aloud clarifies them and often shows me the folly of what I'm saying... but this can happen a little bit after I've said it, when the conversation is over. Probably takes a while for introverted feeling to kick in and tell me how I really feel about things. I'm not sure. I get how it comes across as flaky and would be immensely annoying to those who appreciate consistency. Actually, I think it would be annoying to just about anyone who doesn't have a specific liking for changeableness.

In my experience, I really get along with my EIE friend, though am sometimes mildly offended by some of the things she says--more for her insensitivity than the actual content of what she is saying. But I can't stay mad at her! I'm guessing she feels the same about me, though is more expressive about it, naturally. I carefully word my more judgmental comments so as not to offend, whereas she comes out with her opinions like she's wielding Thor's hammer... and I'm sure I frustrate her with my non-out-thereness. However, we really get into good conversations, and I admire her strengths, while knowing I couldn't live that way.

[yifflord]

Your first example is pretty interesting. I would have thought that even though IEEs can be too trusting of information sources they simultaneously care about verification. That citations can't back up claims seems like it'd be appreciated as Te-input; disregarding citations in favour of personal experience doesn't seem like Te-valuing either. Although maybe they felt embarrassed by how deeply they'd committed themselves to a shitty book and was trying to cover their own ass despite the citations with that weak statement.

Am told by an IEE that she would never leave the town she lives in, and reasons why. I have a stake in her choice. It seems to me -- body language, word choice, and logic -- that she is isn't telling the truth. Two years later she moves away.

Hahaha, if they are really IEE then that may have been their true and honest thoughts at the time. I think I do this quite a lot-- flip-flopping on how I view something based on how much more I've thought about it and what information I have on it-- although never with someone else's investment at stake. I do think two years is more than an adequate amount of time to change your mind/discover that you do want to move away; at the same time I don't know what your stake was so I don't know how seriously I would have treated your question in the IEE's position.

Also: oops! In my previous post I said Te-ignoring when I meant Te-devaluing in general.

[golden]

Your first example is pretty interesting. I would have thought that even though IEEs can be too trusting of information sources they simultaneously care about verification. That citations can't back up claims seems like it'd be appreciated as Te-input.

I don't know if it's Te or not, but in general it's important to me that claims that can have something rather objective behind them, do so. I understand conversely the limitations of scientific studies and interpretation of data, but at least I can assess that information in a more impersonal way. And I find I don't have a big problem with what ppl round here think is Te.

Hahaha, if they are really IEE then that may have been their true and honest thoughts at the time. I think I do this quite a lot-- flip-flopping on how I view something based on how much more I've thought about it and what information I have on it-- although never with someone else's investment at stake. I do think two years is more than an adequate amount of time to change your mind/discover that you do want to move away; at the same time I don't know what your stake was so I don't know how seriously I would have treated your question in the IEE's position.

It was a very impt question for me and she knew it, and the timeline was open-ended, no time limit on it. But I did figure as I wrote this that it was true for her in that moment. I wouldn't answer that way, since it literally wasn't true from my pov.

[anndelise]

I don't know if it's Te or not, but in general it's important to me that claims that can have something rather objective behind them, do so. I understand conversely the limitations of scientific studies and interpretation of data, but at least I can assess that information in a more impersonal way. And I find I don't have a big problem with what ppl round here think is Te.

I think this kind of thing for IEE is related to IEE's tendency to withhold judgments on things initially. We'll initially accept an idea, perhaps still taken with a grain of salt, and then look at it from differing angles to see how it fits. We'll see possibilities it brings up, and it's those possibilities we'll more likely focus on, rather than critiquing the actual info. And if our personal experience (or someone else claims personal experience with it) says "hey, there might be something to this" then we get excited and want to share it with others.

After numerous problems cropping up from the above tendency, then the IEE might start learning to critique the actual info, to analyze it more, or at least to not share the possibilities that they perceive. This requires some education, particularly in terms of basic logic, preferably focused on the subject of choice. For example, I used to get batted around by various "new age" ideas. It took a book called something like "how to think critically about new age ideas" where it guided the reader through common flaws in thinking/presentation of various new age ideas. As I went through it I became more and more embarrassed by how often I had passed on info/ideas that were, on reflection, clearly flawed.

Unfortunately, turning the focus onto critiquing info rather than playing around with ideas and possibilities...takes the joy out of learning and exploring. Even though it eventually leads to better ideas and more realistic possibilities.

[yifflord]

I don't know if it's Te or not, but in general it's important to me that claims that can have something rather objective behind them, do so. I understand conversely the limitations of scientific studies and interpretation of data, but at least I can assess that information in a more impersonal way. And I find I don't have a big problem with what ppl round here think is Te.

Disregarding reliable citations for "true to my experience" anecdotes sounds very Te-PoLR to me just as a surface-y kind of example. At the same time I've definitely acted immaturely after being called out on trusting an information source too readily in the past so it may be a manifestation of that as well. Once I thought a The Onion article was real... the horror.

I don't think I've ever seen an EIE struggling with Te in the sense of handling it once it's been given. I've only ever seen EIE 'problems with Te' manifest itself in trying to apply a pre-existing framework to a new situation and subsequently making claims about that situation without enough info on context.

[anndelise]

It was a very impt question for me and she knew it, and the timeline was open-ended, no time limit on it. But I did figure as I wrote this that it was true for her in that moment. I wouldn't answer that way, since it literally wasn't true from my pov.

Could your decision have influenced her later decision to leave? As in, if you had trusted she would stay, I'm assuming she would have been held responsible for something in your life. But you didn't trust that she would stay, so she didn't have that responsibility influencing her decision two years later.

[golden]

Could your decision have influenced her later decision to leave? As in, if you had trusted she would stay, I'm assuming she would have been held responsible for something in your life. But you didn't trust that she would stay, so she didn't have that responsibility influencing her decision two years later.

It's a good question, ann, but no, I don't think so. Ultimately, she made the decision because of her own family's needs. Totally valid needs -- I actually think it was better for her to move. I just needed a clear answer, even if the answer was "it's not clear." And maybe from her perspective, it was a clear answer. It was just information that I couldn't really use one way or the other, it didn't enter my landing zone, if you will.

(The factors that influenced the relocation were in play at the time we discussed the matter.)

[golden]

You guys are saying some really helpful things, because I haven't ever really had an IEE break down for me their thought processes and perspectives.

I've had extensive contact with IEEs and my approach has ended up being to seriously modulate my own communication. Mostly by scaling back and removing some of my grit and negativity. :\ What you wrote about, in particular, @anndelise, makes sense because IEEs I know offer many thoughtful suggestions, and I have done that for them also.

But to be honest, I know for certain that sometimes they took my advice (i.e., "go back to school," "deal with postpartum issues in these ways," "get more fiber in your diet by eating these foods, and here's why"), which I tend to put in the form of directives. BUT I think I've had a tendency to dismiss their advice. Which feels kinda crappy and unfair of me, now that I think about it. And I'm not sure why I resist, unless like Ann is saying, IEEs will try on suggestions to see if they fit, more readily than I will. Novelty is not really my forte. (I could explain sometime how I deal with novelty.)

Uh also sometimes IEE solutions for me are about how to change my feeling and thinking -- "chill out," relax, go w/ flow -- which isn't necessarily going to happen. Or like in ann's very good question above, irl a question like that might make me feel put on the spot, as if there's an agenda behind it. I see from what you're all saying that there probably is no agenda, just looking for new angles on a situation or problem.

Does that sound right?

[anndelise]

We also tend to be nosey. Asking questions helps us get a better view/understanding of a situation. Unfortuanately can end without providing feedback back. Sometimes this can cause problems in the relationship, too.

[ConcreteButterfly]

Eies are great people,but I don't trust them either. It seems like they are constantly peaking behind the curtains trying to ascertain your real motives, and have a way of emotionally disarming you to get that information. It's bizarre how they get me to open up and tell them things I would otherwise never tell anyone. I literally have to keep my distance to not fall under their emotional sway.

[Iris]

Eies are great people,but I don't trust them either. It seems like they are constantly peaking behind the curtains trying to ascertain your real motives, and have a way of emotionally disarming you to get that information. It's bizarre how they get me to open up and tell them things I would otherwise never tell anyone. I literally have to keep my distance to not fall under their emotional sway.

Who has that much energy, and actual interest, to go around behaving like that? Not me.

[ConcreteButterfly]

Who has that much energy, and actual interest, to go around behaving like that? Not me.

obviously I can't speak for all EIEs this is based on my own experiences. the ones I know seem to assume I'm untrustworthy and will do things like talk badly about our mutual friend just to see what my real attitude is. or make underhanded jokes in public. or only talk about their own lives, and plans, in relation to mine and otherwise keep a great deal private. I get the feeling they only share a tiny fraction of what they really think of me.
It's unfortunate because initially I really like them, but at some point I find myself wanting to escape. I actually feel dragged to them, to stand in front of them and apologize for god knows what. and when I don't, they stop including me in things, they won't invite me to places, they won't talk to me. basically deny that I exist.

[Iris]

obviously I can't speak for all EIEs this is based on my own experiences. the ones I know seem to assume I'm untrustworthy and will do things like talk badly about our mutual friend just to see what my real attitude is. or make underhanded jokes in public. or only talk about their own lives, and plans, in relation to mine and otherwise keep a great deal private. I get the feeling they only share a tiny fraction of what they really think of me.
It's unfortunate because initially I really like them, but at some point I find myself wanting to escape. I actually feel dragged to them, to stand in front of them and apologize for god knows what. and when I don't, they stop including me in things, they won't invite me to places, they won't talk to me. basically deny that I exist.

That sounds like a lot of drama. They dont sound like friends worthy of your time.

[ConcreteButterfly]

That sounds like a lot of drama. They dont sound like friends worthy of your time.

they aren't. i've had to keep my distance from them. though i wouldn't say my experiences with EIEs are stereotypical. we are superficially similar in a way that is very attractive, but the underlying value clash becomes apparent with closer interaction. it's as though we're completely in tune until we hit some invisible wall of communication, and the relationship gets no closer.

[Beautiful sky]

Being given a book on children's nutrition by an IEE, the contents of which are completely nonstandard in terms of current nutritional science, and which makes pretty fantastic claims. It is self-published and though it costs forty dollars, the editorial values are rock-bottom. Worst, not one single citation backs up any of the medical claims. I return the book and express my concerns. Am told, "This is true in terms of my own experience" by IEE.

(I have my own experiences and need something more than someone else's experiences to even lightly entertain information like this, when there red flags re the quality and objectivity. It's also been given to me to persuade me to radically change my child's diet in ways that would provoke stress. Bottom line: quackery and credulity.)

Am told by an IEE that she would never leave the town she lives in, and reasons why. I have a stake in her choice. It seems to me -- body language, word choice, and logic -- that she is isn't telling the truth. Two years later she moves away.

(The honest answer would have been "I don't know." Why not just say that? In this case I could have made a bad, very important decision based on the response. Fortunately I did not trust her words.)

My response to these kinds of interpersonal disjunctions ranges from frustration, to full-on anger, to feeling less respect for the other person. Obvs in non-crucial situations it's not as big a deal.

Can think of many more things but maybe you get the idea.

Having gather knowledge as though it were a FACT from the person's own experience is a very Delta thing to do. Se is more inclined to "where is it found? What data do you have to support that." Because data is tangible, real and available to the senses that can be available to anyone who can then put the pieces together or rather who can then find connections from those tangible and visible data. I think being Ne valuing, Delta trust ideas and especially IEE who don't need to read maybe specific books or see specific doctors, they can trust their own ideas through experience and even like Alpha, through people they trust.

[golden]

Having gather knowledge as though it were a FACT from the person's own experience is a very Delta thing to do. Se is more inclined to "where is it found? What data do you have to support that." Because data is tangible, real and available to the senses that can be available to anyone who can then put the pieces together or rather who can then find connections from those tangible and visible data. I think being Ne valuing, Delta trust ideas and especially IEE who don't need to read maybe specific books or see specific doctors, they can trust their own ideas through experience and even like Alpha, through people they trust.

Yes, this makes sense. The challenge comes in bridging the gap in values. In my book example, the person in question made a decision that I had a stake in based on the information. I think as long as a person who takes this approach isn't doing decision making that affects my personal life, it's not such a big deal.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes, this makes sense. The challenge comes in bridging the gap in values. In my book example, the person in question made a decision that I had a stake in based on the information. I think as long as a person who takes this approach isn't doing decision making that affects my personal life, it's not such a big deal.

I freak out to if I sense impending illness due to a certain way of doing something. That's how my Ne negative works, it's a road lined with possible bad things, get ready. Like if my bf who now doesn't consume anything with vitamin C in it and my idea is that Vitamin C is essential in so many ways for improving and sustaining a healthy immune system, be it something that is proven tangibly or not, it's just common sense from experience to me that that is a balanced, holistic way to be, I've told him that I'm super concerned that he may not be getting good amount of nutrients from his hunter diet. He got a cold and then went out and got Vitamins lol. I don't know how much it's helped, who can tell if it was that or something else, no one can measure such transient results, not a blood test, no doctor can, nothing. It was just, "do what feels more holistic and rounded instead of so off the middle and maybe you'll feel better," but I know that in moderation vitamins haven't killed anyone, so why not?

[powerrainbowcrystal]

Deltas shouldn't take what we Betas say so seriously and to the heart so much. Unless we did something physically and there's physical evidence for it, we didn't mean it. And even if we did, we can feel guilty and work towards change if the other person agrees not to always hold it against us.

I don't want to come off too preachy, I just learned for myself that forgiveness is the key to my own happiness. Like for example one time I got so pissed off at Burger King for getting my order wrong- I ordered a crossnwich with no meat, and they ended up cooking it with the meat on but taking the patty off at the last second and so it tasted awful, as I could still taste the meat on it. Like duh, cooking it with the meat still on made the egg absorb its flavor even if in the end they removed it. It was so lol, did they really think I wouldn't notice? I swore never to go there again- but I sighed and then realized how much I myself needed second chances in my life. And third and fourth and fifths. Because we're only humans. And so I sucked up my pride and forgave them and next time they cooked it soooo well. (not immediately after, it took me a few weeks to forgive.)

Now I realize this story is kinda shallow and forgiving something like that is way easier then say- somebody killing your own child. Not saying everything can be forgiven or whatever but when people can do it- it builds relationships and mends the heart. Instead of the typical Delta thing to hatefully hold a grudge, take the moral high ground and act like you were always innocent and the other person was just 'wrong.' When Deltas do this I can sometimes even purposefully troll them even more because it just fuels the fire of hate instead of love.