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Thread: What type underestimates investment?

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    Default What type underestimates investment?

    my friend underestimates the time or effort that it will take her to do something. she says she will arrive shortly - it takes her close to an hour to get there. last weekend she arrived two hours late to only see its end. she doesn't plan her activities, but when she does she doesn't properly access how much effort and time these activities take up. she doesn't do this intentionally and feels upset herself with how it happens. some of our mutual friends get angry at her for it, I am more forgiving.

    what types do this sort of thing?

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    Just a quick reminder, our brains are not wired for 60 second nor 60 minute intervals.
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    irrational, Te polr? in any case, not LIE.

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    this is my iee friend to a T. when she tells me she will show up at a certain time, i double it. part of it is she just has a casual attitude about time and since i know to adjust to it and expect it and don't bitch about it, she doesn't worry about it. like today she said she would come over from her moms but took an extra half hour cuz she decided to run home and feed her cats. but its easy to accept her casual attitude cuz its also is why she will drop everything for me when i call, like its just part of who she is. another part of why she's always late is she gets lost really easily and ends up in random predicaments like losing her car.

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    My LSE father does this, my EII mother, LIE sister, and my EIE sister in law and her father who's type I don't know. I don't really think it's type related, in general. It has more to do with discipline and if you respect the other person's time.

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    Ive seen this constantly with Judicious types and not so much with Decisives. Every SLI I know doesnt know how to be timely because they inadvertently get caught up. Doesnt understand the time and effort required, leads me away from Se and Ni, in theory an Se ignoring and a Ni role coupled with IP temperament fits.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

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    Perhaps depends on your upbringing (my parents are both punctual so I was trained from the start to consider this as "the norm")?

    Two hours late seems a whole fucking lot though, unless she met enormously heavy traffic.
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    Could be cultural too, for instance, Germans in general are more punctual than Dutch people who are more punctual than most French people ime

    my peer group is always habitually late, the exception being my see friend who is compulsively early.

    Id say it would depend on WHY she s late, I mean I could easily be on time always, I know how much time something takes and what to do to get somewhere, I just dislike waiting so I'm always five minutes late.

    otoh if it's that she either doesn't understand time (weak ni?) or doesn't know how to get somewhere (weak se/te) it's different since it's not under her control.

    if I show up late more then five minutes it means I probably didn't want to go in the first place and failed to motivate myself

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    my ILE friend used to do such things, too. We'd set a meeting at 2 and meanwhile she'd see a rabbit going down the hole and her Ne was set on fire. The only solution to this was arranging meetings only at my place where I could just do something else with my time. I thought it was high irrationality and Fi polr, cause it seemed to her acceptable to be half an hour late and leave a friend waiting for you while you're just absorbed by something else. However I'm sure it was just a matter of choice, she would never afford doing such things at work in germany, for instance ...I agree with the cultural (or upbringing-dependent) levels to such a habit, too. Otherwise I'm sure irrationality is the main factor - deadlines are flexible, there's no pressure in the psyche to maintain continuity with a previous decision etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    Could be cultural too, for instance, Germans in general are more punctual than Dutch people who are more punctual than most French people ime

    my peer group is always habitually late, the exception being my see friend who is compulsively early.
    ...
    Yeah, I was gonna say partially cultural too. When I've waited for Tibetan and to some degree Nepali ppl to show up for something, I have never expected punctuality at all. One-half-hour to a full hour late, not surprising.

    In my old town in Calif., people would be late for a meeting / date / appt. or simply not show up at all.

    In NY, ppl try to be punctual, but the subway system is a mess and traffic patterns are unpredictable, so lateness on that basis is somewhat tolerated (depends on how important it is to be on time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post
    In NY, ppl try to be punctual, but the subway system is a mess and traffic patterns are unpredictable, so lateness on that basis is somewhat tolerated (depends on how important it is to be on time).
    Ya that is normally the lateness I am "used to" and find acceptable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    my friend underestimates the time or effort that it will take her to do something. she says she will arrive shortly - it takes her close to an hour to get there. last weekend she arrived two hours late to only see its end. she doesn't plan her activities, but when she does she doesn't properly access how much effort and time these activities take up. she doesn't do this intentionally and feels upset herself with how it happens. some of our mutual friends get angry at her for it, I am more forgiving.

    what types do this sort of thing?
    From personal observation, my irrational friends tend to be more laid back about lateness....I'd wager more rationals would be on time than irrationals with everything else being equal.

    Rationals

    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early.
    Are more often rigid and stubborn.
    Do not like to change their decisions.

    Irrationals

    Tend to wait and see, more spontaneous.
    Are more often flexible and tolerant.
    Change their decisions frequently.

    But as mentioned, people are complex and culture/upbringing factor in too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteronfireee View Post
    From personal observation, my irrational friends tend to be more laid back about lateness....I'd wager more rationals would be on time than irrationals with everything else being equal.

    Rationals

    Tend to plan ahead, make decisions early.
    Are more often rigid and stubborn.
    Do not like to change their decisions.
    Even then, I know some people who like to plan ahead but still manage to be always 45-60 minutes late (ofc they are never late at work).
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    not sure if it's type related. some people don't even want to be on time. my sle friend and i will plan on going to a party after work. it already started while we were at work, but when we get off we still spend an hour picking out champagne and piñata stuff, half an hour getting ready, and just when i think it's time to go she starts waxing. ugh bitch you just gonna pass out there in two hours anyway who's going to see your vagina?
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    I'd love to know what type this is because I have a few clients like this... it gets so bad with some of them that I have to tell them that their appointment is 30 min to an hour earlier then it actually is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    my friend underestimates the time or effort that it will take her to do something. she says she will arrive shortly - it takes her close to an hour to get there. last weekend she arrived two hours late to only see its end. she doesn't plan her activities, but when she does she doesn't properly access how much effort and time these activities take up. she doesn't do this intentionally and feels upset herself with how it happens. some of our mutual friends get angry at her for it, I am more forgiving.

    what types do this sort of thing?
    I have a lot of trouble with this actually. IDK if it's type related though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agni View Post
    my ILE friend used to do such things, too. We'd set a meeting at 2 and meanwhile she'd see a rabbit going down the hole and her Ne was set on fire. The only solution to this was arranging meetings only at my place where I could just do something else with my time. I thought it was high irrationality and Fi polr, cause it seemed to her acceptable to be half an hour late and leave a friend waiting for you while you're just absorbed by something else. However I'm sure it was just a matter of choice, she would never afford doing such things at work in germany, for instance ...I agree with the cultural (or upbringing-dependent) levels to such a habit, too. Otherwise I'm sure irrationality is the main factor - deadlines are flexible, there's no pressure in the psyche to maintain continuity with a previous decision etc.
    If someone is waiting for me, i try my hardest to not make them wait, out of respect for them. Or i give them a heads up that i'm running about X minutes late (i try for that not to be more than 20 min though). One of my biggest pet peeve are people who do what you wrote above... it's insulting and, when recurrent, i have ended friendships over stuff like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    this is my iee friend to a T. when she tells me she will show up at a certain time, i double it. part of it is she just has a casual attitude about time and since i know to adjust to it and expect it and don't bitch about it, she doesn't worry about it. like today she said she would come over from her moms but took an extra half hour cuz she decided to run home and feed her cats. but its easy to accept her casual attitude cuz its also is why she will drop everything for me when i call, like its just part of who she is. another part of why she's always late is she gets lost really easily and ends up in random predicaments like losing her car.
    THIS

    It doesn't sounds like she's casual about time, but rather circumstances get in the way. I relate a lot. In fact seems like her life ends up being hectic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suz View Post
    THIS

    It doesn't sounds like she's casual about time, but rather circumstances get in the way. I relate a lot. In fact seems like her life ends up being hectic!
    that's probably how she would put it too, to be fair.

    (the ne base ppls responses in general to this thread are amusing to me...)

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    My SLE dad is always late, pisses off my EIE mom to no end. We're talking about ~ten minutes though, not two hours.

    I think culture definitely plays a big role in this. In the Nordic Countries if you agree to meet at 12, it'll be 12 exactly, not five to or five past. Five minutes late and you're actually expected to apologise, especially if the meeting is even slightly formal in nature. I've had some funny incidents with French and Italian people before over this problem. Whereas for me "we leave the at 20" means "we put our shoes on 19:55, say hi to people and are out early enough to catch that 20:07 bus", to them it seems to mean something along the lines of "we start an hour long goodbye-ritual involving lots of cheek kisses and confessions of emotions some time between 20 and 21, and then hope there's still a bus coming". Nowadays I can expect it, but the first time I was at a party organised by South Europeans some people seriously thought I was pissed off at them for not staying for hugs and cheek kisses (I hadn't even heard about those back then and they still make me really uncomfortable).
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    I can be like this, if I don't feel like putting in the will power to avert myself from the things I am doing at the time. So I can be late if I'm absorbed mentally/physically into something and don't care enough to stop and be on time. It's also distracting to analyze how much time everything is going to take or to continually monitor my progress. I prefer a general plan and the ability to alter it as things play out. So if it's not work, I might show up 30 minutes late and just say I was doing something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suz View Post
    If someone is waiting for me, i try my hardest to not make them wait, out of respect for them. Or i give them a heads up that i'm running about X minutes late (i try for that not to be more than 20 min though). One of my biggest pet peeve are people who do what you wrote above... it's insulting and, when recurrent, i have ended friendships over stuff like that.
    well, she would text to let me know she'd be late, of course ...but still that was problematic. I only ended the relationship when she popped up at my door without letting me know by any means beforehand and entered a huge rage on the phone to convince me to let her visit, although I made it clear it wasn't an appropriate moment. That for me was a much more serious transgression. But well ... there was some connection between us and after 1-2 years we resumed our friendship in another form ..ended up seeing each other way more seldom, cause we moved to different cities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Ive seen this constantly with Judicious types and not so much with Decisives. Every SLI I know doesnt know how to be timely because they inadvertently get caught up. Doesnt understand the time and effort required, leads me away from Se and Ni, in theory an Se ignoring and a Ni role coupled with IP temperament fits.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    . I've had some funny incidents with French and Italian people before over this problem. Whereas for me "we leave the at 20" means "we put our shoes on 19:55, say hi to people and are out early enough to catch that 20:07 bus", to them it seems to mean something along the lines of "we start an hour long goodbye-ritual involving lots of cheek kisses and confessions of emotions some time between 20 and 21, and then hope there's still a bus coming". .
    Well, that's really different from showing up late, since you're leaving and thus not bothering people with your lateness. at least that's how I perceive it.

    P.s. if I know I have to catch the bus at 20:07 I'd make sure to say I'll leave at 19:45
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, that's really different from showing up late, since you're leaving and thus not bothering people with your lateness. at least that's how I perceive it.

    P.s. if I know I have to catch the bus at 20:07 I'd make sure to say I'll leave at 19:45
    I thought this could tell something about the general level of expected punctuality.. and then in a lot of situations there has been a good reason to leave at a precise moment, such as a bus or that the parents of the party organiser are coming home (when we were younger). But I see your point.

    I've also heard that north and south Italy are quite different in this regard, would you say this is true?
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    my friend underestimates the time or effort that it will take her to do something. she says she will arrive shortly - it takes her close to an hour to get there. last weekend she arrived two hours late to only see its end. she doesn't plan her activities, but when she does she doesn't properly access how much effort and time these activities take up. she doesn't do this intentionally and feels upset herself with how it happens. some of our mutual friends get angry at her for it, I am more forgiving.

    what types do this sort of thing?
    If you want to know what I think it is that an hour late usually, and 2 hours late is not socionic type related but more that likely not it is related to being in a depression.
    Last edited by Words; 11-08-2014 at 01:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina
    I've also heard that north and south Italy are quite different in this regard, would you say this is true?
    Perhaps there's more start-of-meeting punctuality, even though 5 minutes late is not considered late - lateness starts from 10 minutes late according to my perception (not for public transportation, just for "friends" meetings). You are definitely expected to kiss cheeks and talk/thank the host during the last 10 mins of meeting someone tho, otherwise it's a bit rude. To be honest, I don't notice an enormous difference with germans, at least with those I know personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Perhaps there's more start-of-meeting punctuality, even though 5 minutes late is not considered late - lateness starts from 10 minutes late according to my perception (not for public transportation, just for "friends" meetings). You are definitely expected to kiss cheeks and talk/thank the host during the last 10 mins of meeting someone tho, otherwise it's a bit rude. To be honest, I don't notice an enormous difference with germans, at least with those I know personally.
    I see. Germans don't do cheek kisses though? At least the ones I know have never tried, not even the ones living in the south.
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    NTR

    People are late when they don't respect you
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    I actually think this sounds Ne. Ne likes to see the environment and time as the whole and the sense of hours/minutes can seem as distraction of the harmony and wholeness they seek in the environment and therefore they pay little attention on time.
    Or maybe your friend is just a lazy person and doesn't appriciate your time enough.

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    Probably everyone underestimates investment related to their 7th function, firstly because it's unconscious and secondly because it's strong enough to be used whenever you really need it (which is decided instinctively, in accordance with your base).

    IxE's would underestimate the value of time, ExE's the value of loyalty and good relations, LxE's the value of logical consistency, SxE's the value of good health and comfort

    LxI's would underestimate the value of factual knowledge and efficient work, ExI's the value of emotional impact, SxI's the value of external forms and volitional pressure, IxI's the value of potential forms and potential volitional pressure
    Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 11-14-2014 at 01:30 AM.

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