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Thread: Enneagram and stackings for Kore

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    @Kore well that is a good start; now what of particular observations as to what you see as 4-ish about you or 5-ish about you?
    I think it won't be hard to imagine why one can see 9w1 as your gut fix.

    In a certain way, I think I could see if 4 and 9 combine, you could get this subtly ethical but mostly irrationally leading individual (irrational in the sense of irrational/rational).
    Like I've often mentioned, if you're feeling triad, it is more of a subtle undercurrent, as if you are both very focused on yourself underneath all the oscillation and yet have the (almost contradictory) 9 attitude, which one could say is a refusal to "build" one's identity (the way 3's often are said to do in a deliberated way), due to an inertial harmony-seeking. Those who use integration/disintegration theory would say this is why 9 integrates to 3. The usual contrast of 4 to 9 is that 4 and 5 are some of the most intensely self-centered types, while 9 is self-forgetting in how it's typically portrayed.

    There is another possibility which is you are core 9w1 and a 4-fixer, which doesn't sound impossible at all from how I've seen you..the reason being that at times we are seeing someone's back-side more than how they experience themselves, and the reason 9 is shown as integrating to 3 is actually an underlying identity issue, which leads them to oscillate back and forth, repress a lot and so forth. Sounds a bit like you actually, both from our interactions and that hidden script you posted. You'll usually get 4 overexpressing their identity in a "it bleeds" way in that they have basically identified with their sense of impoverishment of identity. This doesn't mean they'll do it in an externalizable way necessarily - usually that is more w3. Typing is a bit of an intuitive exercise so I am suggesting this on the hunch that you don't really do this.

    I'd clarify that wanting to simply be unique is something that doesn't have to even be an image triad thing. I think like darya got at, lots of the 7/6 combo types also can have that sort of thing going. It looks different though because to 7's I get the sense it is more that it would be displeasing and unrewarding not to be unique, hence they will attempt to rationalize around such an outcome, than that it is their true concern who they "really are" and to take that seriously in a sense.
    A lot of our pleasures and displeasures have to do with instinctual impulses, and 7's proximity to the instinctual triad is why they try to essentially rationalize around the impossibility of meeting any given instinctual impulse, so as to not be led to displeasure, giving them "gluttonous" an outlook. With E6, you get the Naranjo description that they cling to factors of emotional security, much as they cling to other forms of security. It sounds a bit how Gulenko describes ILI as vulnerable to emotions of others, so not at all unaware of their impact, merely that it's not expressive and so on with them in a way exhibiting complex use of the ethics of emotions (leading to the expressiveness and so forth typical of 4).

    Hmmm. Strangely I really think you might be 9w1 now I reconsider. But likely 4-fixed. Can't see 2 or 3 anywhere. It could also be why it's hard to place you in either "feeling" or "thinking"

    I do see 1 influence in you for sure, but I feel much better about 9w1 than 1w9 for you, in that I find your 1 comes out in a repressed way, not as if it's blatantly what you are.

    As always, treat this all as subjective ways you could see yourself -- I tend to reject the idea that there is "one right" way with the enneagram and that "3's are like this" or "5's are like that", but I do think there are interesting things one can say using the language.
    Last edited by chemical; 11-17-2014 at 07:15 PM.

  2. #42
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    i think 9w1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I can't say anything about enneagram type, but I think IEI over ILI. You come off as very charming and charismatic, unlike ILI's with their Fe difficulties. You've also stated several times that you're horrible with your finances and tend to buy whatever you want, which is a very IEI Te PoLR characteristic. IEI's are whimsical, live in fantasy and tend to buy things on a whim. ILI's on the other hand with their strong Te paired with Ni tend to be quite frugal, and good with their finances (I'm sure @Scapegrace can vouch for this if she still identifies as ILI).

    Also, I think you VI IEI > ILI. That whole mystical quality you possess is more than , imo
    Definitely agree that she seems more like the IEIs on this forum than me. I'm cheap as shit, and not very charming. You don't want to be like me, Kore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Definitely agree that she seems more like the IEIs on this forum than me. I'm cheap as shit, and not very charming. You don't want to be like me, Kore.

    Oh pipe down Scape -- you charmed my pants off with that plastic bag of shit and that anonymous nasty cock of yours.



    Oh and Kore is IEI, duh.

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    E4 sp/sx amirite?

    I don't know shit about tritype yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    my sense is that, if you don't compare yourself to others, you might not be a four. even if sp-first (although I can't confirm this.)

    the envy is immense, painful, sometimes energizing, and almost always present
    I think that sort of envy is more associated with Social 4. Sx-4 is counter-envy for example, while I'm not sure what Sp-4 is.

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    SUPERVISE ME HARDER, BEBE.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Definitely agree that she seems more like the IEIs on this forum than me. I'm cheap as shit, and not very charming. You don't want to be like me, Kore.
    I do not want to be anybody. Just myself


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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    @Kore well that is a good start; now what of particular observations as to what you see as 4-ish about you or 5-ish about you?
    I think it won't be hard to imagine why one can see 9w1 as your gut fix.

    In a certain way, I think I could see if 4 and 9 combine, you could get this subtly ethical but mostly irrationally leading individual (irrational in the sense of irrational/rational).
    Like I've often mentioned, if you're feeling triad, it is more of a subtle undercurrent, as if you are both very focused on yourself underneath all the oscillation and yet have the (almost contradictory) 9 attitude, which one could say is a refusal to "build" one's identity (the way 3's often are said to do in a deliberated way), due to an inertial harmony-seeking. Those who use integration/disintegration theory would say this is why 9 integrates to 3. The usual contrast of 4 to 9 is that 4 and 5 are some of the most intensely self-centered types, while 9 is self-forgetting in how it's typically portrayed.

    There is another possibility which is you are core 9w1 and a 4-fixer, which doesn't sound impossible at all from how I've seen you..the reason being that at times we are seeing someone's back-side more than how they experience themselves, and the reason 9 is shown as integrating to 3 is actually an underlying identity issue, which leads them to oscillate back and forth, repress a lot and so forth. Sounds a bit like you actually, both from our interactions and that hidden script you posted. You'll usually get 4 overexpressing their identity in a "it bleeds" way in that they have basically identified with their sense of impoverishment of identity. This doesn't mean they'll do it in an externalizable way necessarily - usually that is more w3. Typing is a bit of an intuitive exercise so I am suggesting this on the hunch that you don't really do this.

    I'd clarify that wanting to simply be unique is something that doesn't have to even be an image triad thing. I think like darya got at, lots of the 7/6 combo types also can have that sort of thing going. It looks different though because to 7's I get the sense it is more that it would be displeasing and unrewarding not to be unique, hence they will attempt to rationalize around such an outcome, than that it is their true concern who they "really are" and to take that seriously in a sense.
    A lot of our pleasures and displeasures have to do with instinctual impulses, and 7's proximity to the instinctual triad is why they try to essentially rationalize around the impossibility of meeting any given instinctual impulse, so as to not be led to displeasure, giving them "gluttonous" an outlook. With E6, you get the Naranjo description that they cling to factors of emotional security, much as they cling to other forms of security. It sounds a bit how Gulenko describes ILI as vulnerable to emotions of others, so not at all unaware of their impact, merely that it's not expressive and so on with them in a way exhibiting complex use of the ethics of emotions (leading to the expressiveness and so forth typical of 4).

    Hmmm. Strangely I really think you might be 9w1 now I reconsider. But likely 4-fixed. Can't see 2 or 3 anywhere. It could also be why it's hard to place you in either "feeling" or "thinking"

    I do see 1 influence in you for sure, but I feel much better about 9w1 than 1w9 for you, in that I find your 1 comes out in a repressed way, not as if it's blatantly what you are.

    As always, treat this all as subjective ways you could see yourself -- I tend to reject the idea that there is "one right" way with the enneagram and that "3's are like this" or "5's are like that", but I do think there are interesting things one can say using the language.
    I always need to gather my brain into one piece before I read you

    9 or 4 both come out quite obviously.
    It's just I am a pretty intense person...
    I need to slow down in my wishes and desires, sometimes I have a hard time to not follow my impulses...
    First I wanted to explain differences between 4ish and 5ish traits but somehow it did not come in a natural way..
    So maybe another time.
    It's a good occasion to say thanks for your time though


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    Quote Originally Posted by suedehead View Post
    I think that sort of envy is more associated with Social 4. Sx-4 is counter-envy for example, while I'm not sure what Sp-4 is.

    The Self-Preservation Four: “Tenacity” (Countertype)

    The Self-Preservation Four is the countertype of the Four subtypes, and so it may be difficult to identify this person as a Four. Although this Four experiences envy like the other Fours, they communicate their envy and suffering to others less than the other two Four subtypes do. Instead of talking about their suffering, these Fours are“long-suffering” in the sense of learning to endure pain without wincing. These Fours are more stoic and strong in the face of their pain.

    Envy is less apparent in the Self-Preservation Four because instead of dwelling in and expressing envy, this Four works hard to get what others have that he or she lacks. Instead of hanging out in their longing in a way that prevents them from taking action, they strive to get “those distant things” that give them the feeling of being able to obtain that which was lost. Whatever they get, however, never feels like enough.

    Self-Preservation Fours do not communicate sensitivity, suffering, shame, or envy, though they may feel all these things and they have the same depth and capacity for feeling as the other Fours. They learn to swallow a lot without complaining. Endurance is a virtue for them, and they hope their self-sacrifices will be recognized and appreciated, though they don’t talk about them very much.

    Like the other Fours, Self-Preservation Fours feel a need to suffer in the unconscious hope that this will bring them love and acceptance; but unlike the other two, they suffer in silence. Their willingness to suffer without complaint is their way of seeking redemption and earning love. Thus, this Four makes a virtue of toughing out difficulties without talking about them, hoping that others will see this, admire them for it, and help them to meet their needs. Instead of displaying the need to suffer, they have a tendency to deny their envy and bear too much suffering and frustration as a result.

    As Naranjo explains, the other two Four subtypes are too sensitive to frustration. They either suffer too much or they make you suffer too much (as a compensation for their suffering). The Self-Preservation subtype is the countertype Four because they go to the other extreme, developing a high capacity to internalize and bear frustration. They make a virtue of resistance to frustration.

    Self-Preservation Fours demand a lot of themselves. They have a strong need to endure, so they develop an ability to do without. They put themselves in situations that are tough. They test and challenge themselves. One of my clients with this subtype says that she “throws herself into the fire.” These Fours have a passion for effort—they engage in intense activity, and may often appear strained and tense. They may experience distress if their activity level slows down, and they can be compulsive about making efforts to achieve what they need to survive, even if their efforts don’t take them anywhere. In some cases, they may not know how to live without the stress and pressure they put on themselves. They don’t allow themselves the experience of living in or from their fragility.

    Just as the (countertype) Self-Preservation Three wants to be seen as successful but displays humility about the work they do because they believe outward displays of vanity make them less worthy of respect, Self-Preservation Fours internalize their suffering and strive to get what they want in a more autonomous way than the other Four subtypes.

    This Four tends to be a humanitarian with an empathic and nurturing disposition, someone who protests for the sake of others and is sensitive to the needy, the dispossessed, and victims of injustice. This is their way of projecting their pain outward, addressing it through others’ suffering instead talking about their own. They try to take care of others’ pain or work to ease the “suffering of the world” so they don’t have to fully deal with their own suffering.

    While the other two Four subtypes can be dramatic, the Self-Preservation Four is more masochistic than melodramatic. For this subtype, masochism is the ego or personality’s strategy for getting love. Self-Preservation Fours devalue themselves in important ways, which can make it even tougher for them to do all the work they do to try to get the security and the love that they long for. Their attachment to enduring can be seen from the outside as masochistic, but it stems from a desire to earn love and acceptance through being strong and resilient. The motivation of this subtype stems from a desire for the parent to see that the child is not complaining, and instead is being a good boy or girl through not asking for very much.

    These Fours may also masochistically enact a need to prove themselves by working against themselves: they make efforts to get what they need and want, but unconsciously work against themselves at the same time. They can be impulsive, but they will control and inhibit their impulses to get recognition. They may want to be happy, but they experience an unconscious taboo around happiness. They spend a lot of energy on being afraid of what’s happening instead of dealing with problems and making improvements, so they habitually postpone actions necessary to achieving what they want and then blame themselves for doing so. They wear themselves out seeking and striving in ways and places where they know they’ll fail, which ensures the perpetuation of a cycle of effort and devaluation. They may be ambitious, but they deny and work against their own ambitions.

    Formerly called “Reckless/Dauntless,” but more recently referred to by the name “Tenacity,” these Fours move toward activities that require a large capacity for endurance as a way to earn love, without regard for the pain or the danger they may entail.


    This Four subtype resembles a One or a Three. Self-Preservation Fours’ focus on autonomy, self-sufficiency, and working hard may make them look like a One; however, this Four feels a wider range of emotions—more ups and downs—than Ones, even if they don’t always express their feelings. Self-Preservation Fours can also look like Threes, especially Self-Preservation Threes, in that they work hard to achieve a sense of security and may be anxious; however, in contrast to Threes, these Fours will often work at cross-purposes, unintentionally thwarting their own efforts, whereas Threes tend to achieve what they are working toward. Fours also feel their emotions more than Threes do.


    Interestingly, this subtype can also look like a Type Seven, which in some ways is the opposite of Type Four, because some Self-Preservation Fours express a need to be light. With all the enduring and efforting these Fours do, they may at times display the high energy characteristic of Sevens, and they may also have a need for fun and playfulness as an escape from having to tough things out all the time. This may account for the fact that there are some Fours who do not seem as melancholy as others—Fours that appear more “sunny” and lighthearted. However, these Fours can be distinguished from Sevens in their greater access to their emotions.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by suedehead View Post
    I think that sort of envy is more associated with Social 4. Sx-4 is counter-envy for example, while I'm not sure what Sp-4 is.
    That's true although I sort of agree more with @lemontrees. 4's issue is envy anyways. While social 4 may be more emo than the other 4s in how they compare themselves with people, sx 4s still seem just as envious. The envy is different though in that it's more hateful and, in a sense, sort of like rejecting their inferiority- something the social 4 admits, even seeming to take pleasure in masochistically especially the attention it brings them. Sx 4 seems to be trying to be better than and putting people under themselves even when they envy them. I chatted with both a social 4 and sexual 4 closely and in group and the sx 4 would hate so many people or things. If I ever brought up her hatred for it, she sometimes admits why and it always goes to envy.

    Ooh, I want to link this as it sort of shows what I mean. For the scene, start at 3:16 and stop maybe at 4:22.


    Basically, dude keeps asking girls out and gets rejected. The last person who rejected him tells him that she has a crush on 'Oda-kun from the basketball team'. In that scene he says, "Oda-kun from the basketball team is nothing. That bastard must be just some boring guy. I hate the basketball team. It's spring on the outside... but my heart is in the middle of winter."

    I think he's a good example of a sexual 4 too, throughout the anime. The series is pretty good and classic too (I prefer the manga).

    Anyways yeah, with them it often seems like they will hate or have hateful feelings towards what prevents them from having what they want or from what may make them feel lacking so they may magnetize the other's lesser traits to make themselves feel better than them, compete for it with a sense of entitlement for having suffered so or, as you said, be counterenvious, feeling as if having something is beneath them and rejecting it, compensating this perception of deficiency by having 'taste', being picky (social 4 may be more critical though) or misunderstood genius arrogance. I agree that they can seem counter-envious though.

    I notice my 4 friends compare themselves with me TOO much even if sexual. Like it may not even be about them when I'm talking about something but they may bring up how lucky I am or how they differ from me and are more acutely aware of the ways we're different. The way they bring it up even gives the impression that they're hyper attuned to it.

    Sp 4s are less obvious to me even though I met one claiming to be one so idk and am not as confident using him as an example of sp 4 (I am sure of at least one real life representative of social 4 and sexual 4). They are said to be more stoic though, instead of sad or angry but then there's apparently a dauntlessness to them. This was actually the first person I met from typology forums, he mistyped as a 1 due to perfectionism and such and had the anxiety that made me (and a few others) think 6 was possible upon meeting him. We read somewhere that this was a product of sp 4 (particularly the sp/so 4) and it makes sense as SP-firsts are the most concerned with security. In his house, he had fancy useless trinkets and I may have read somewhere that Sp 4s may like to decorate their home or have possessions that make them feel elite or aristocratic? idk. Never seen someone drive like such a maniac as him though, maybe that's where his dauntlessness comes in, haha.

    Idk enough about @Kore and I don't pay much attention to this forum or chatbox so idk. If I had to guess, Sp/Sx though, at least that aura about her. 9 wouldn't have been my first guess though.
    Last edited by Olly From Wally World; 11-18-2014 at 05:15 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olly From Wally World View Post
    Sx 4 seems to be trying to be better than and putting people under themselves even when they envy them. I chatted with both a social 4 and sexual 4 closely and in group and the sx 4 would hate so many people or things. If I ever brought up her hatred for it, she sometimes admits why and it always goes to envy.


     


    The Sexual Four: “Competition”
    In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don’t feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves.

    Sexual Fours believe it’s good to be the best. Most people want to present a good image to others, but Sexual Fours don’t care very much about image management or being liked. For them, it’s better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.

    People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing” belief related to success: if success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.

    Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation—a means of being recognized. These Fours like to be part of “chosen” group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

    Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype’s unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours’ deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others’ accomplishments in comparison with their own.

    Sexual Fours “make others suffer” because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.” Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.”

    When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don’t meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to protest and protest leads to rejection.

    The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers to this Four as the “mad Four” as opposed to the “sad” (Social) Four. These Fours can be very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don’t have to feel their pain anymore.

    These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of their own deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

    Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse behind the French revolution: “I envy the rich, so I’ll organize a revolution.”) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive. They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

    Naranjo calls this type “Competition,” and Ichazo called it “Hate.” While this type can be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a wishing with anger, or a sense of “I’ve got to get what I need, both to convince myself that my needs aren’t shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.” Their competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

    These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody’s love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or they can become “extraordinary”—make themselves seem special and attractive and superior—in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don’t deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

    Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don’t need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive” Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships), but the Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.




    These descriptions do seem to be based on unhealthy 4s but I get it.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    i wonder what my iei e4 mom's instincts were. it was always about how she'd had a much harder life than everybody else and nobody else could understand what she'd been through and they were all so weak. she always invalidated my feelings. "you're sad cuz your friend stood you up? well AT LEAST YOUR FATHER DIDN'T BEAT YOU!" when i was a teenager i put myself through chaotic and dangerous situations partly cuz i wanted to prove myself to her....like hurting myself is what would actually make her proud of me, lol. she was unhealthy (obviously).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post


     


    The Sexual Four: “Competition”
    In the Sexual Four subtype, the inner motivation is envy, and its manifestation as competition. These Fours don’t feel consciously envious so much as they feel competitive as a way of muting the pain associated with envy. If they can compete against another person they perceive as having more than they do and win, they can feel better about themselves.

    Sexual Fours believe it’s good to be the best. Most people want to present a good image to others, but Sexual Fours don’t care very much about image management or being liked. For them, it’s better to be superior. They are highly competitive, and their intense focus on competition takes the form of actively striving to show that they are the best.

    People with this subtype tend to have an “all or nothing” belief related to success: if success is not all theirs, they are left with nothing. This pattern leads to excesses related to their efforts to achieve success, and it also generates feelings of hate.

    Sexual Fours are usually arrogant, despite having an underlying sense of inferiority. In the face of the pain of feeling misunderstood, an arrogant attitude is adopted as overcompensation—a means of being recognized. These Fours like to be part of “chosen” group, and they can be very elitist. They may refuse to feel indebted to anyone, and they may have the sense that they have the exclusive right to feel offended by the lack of consideration of others. Any criticism or reproach is seen as an affront or disqualification.

    Envious anger dominates the expression of this subtype’s unconscious instinctual impulses. Sexual Fours’ deeper instinctual motivation is about a refusal to suffer the pain brought about by envy, and a need to reduce suffering by projecting the responsibility for meeting their needs onto others and minimizing others’ accomplishments in comparison with their own.

    Sexual Fours “make others suffer” because they feel that they have been made to suffer and so need some sort of compensation. They may seek to hurt or punish others as an unconscious way of repudiating or minimizing their own pain. Naranjo observes that this tendency of this Four can be summed up by the phrase, “Hurt people hurt people.” Externalizing pain helps them ease their inner sense of inferiority. Their relationship to suffering can thus best be understood as a refusal to suffer. This gets expressed as an active insistence on their needs being validated and met. (They want with anger.) More shameless than shameful, Sexual Fours are vocal about expressing their needs; they rebel against any shame connected to their desires. This subtype follows the life philosophy that “the squeaky wheel gets the grease.”

    When others experience Sexual Fours as demanding, this can lead to a pattern of rejection and anger: Sexual Fours get mad when others don’t meet their needs, but their demanding nature causes people to avoid or reject them, and then they get angry about being rejected. This type can thus get trapped in a vicious cycle when rejection leads to protest and protest leads to rejection.

    The Sexual Four is more assertive and angrier than the other subtypes. Naranjo refers to this Four as the “mad Four” as opposed to the “sad” (Social) Four. These Fours can be very outspoken with their anger because expression of anger is their way of defending against painful feelings. When they unconsciously turn their pain into anger, they don’t have to feel their pain anymore.

    These Fours may even seek to hurt or punish others as a way of repudiating or minimizing their underlying pain. They feel justified in pointing to others as the source of their own deprivation or frustration, which serves as both a distraction from their own role in their suffering and a plea for help and understanding.

    Naranjo says that this Four subtype can be the angriest personality among the Enneagram types. They may express envious anger as a way to establish or assert power when they feel inferior at a deeper level, which can be a way to manipulate situations to their advantage. (This kind of anger was the impulse behind the French revolution: “I envy the rich, so I’ll organize a revolution.”) And Sexual Fours can be very impulsive. They want things immediately and have little tolerance for frustration.

    Naranjo calls this type “Competition,” and Ichazo called it “Hate.” While this type can be both hateful and competitive, it is important to remember that the competition and hate expressed by this Four represents a deeper need to project their sense of suffering and inadequacy outward. The painful sense of envy felt by the Sexual Four can motivate a wishing with anger, or a sense of “I’ve got to get what I need, both to convince myself that my needs aren’t shameful, and to feel better about myself with respect to others.” Their competitiveness and anger is a compensation for and a defense against the hurt they feel underneath.

    These Fours like and need emotional intensity. Without intensity, everything can seem unbearably dull and boring. When Sexual Fours want somebody’s love, they can be very direct about asking for what they need, or they can become “extraordinary”—make themselves seem special and attractive and superior—in an effort to attract it. In line with their natural (fueled by both their heart-based emotional temperament and their sexual instinct), these individuals tend to be more present and available in relationships because they don’t deny or avoid many of the factors that can inhibit others relationally, like anger, neediness, competitiveness, arrogance, and having to be liked all the time. However, at times it may prove difficult for them to maintain a loving attitude because they confuse sweetness and benevolence with being false or insincere.

    Sexual Fours are most likely to be confused with Type Eights or Sexual Twos. Like Eights, they have easier access to anger than most types, but they differ from Eights in the wider range of emotions they regularly feel. Naranjo points out that Eights often don’t need to get angry, whereas this Four frequently feels misunderstood or envious, so they may show anger more often. They can also look like Sexual “Aggressive-Seductive” Twos (because both types can be aggressive and seductive in relationships), but the Sexual Two is more oriented toward pleasing others.




    These descriptions do seem to be based on unhealthy 4s but I get it.
    Hahaha, oh I wasn't referring to you. While you've given me more insight about social last and maybe even sx/sp, I'm not as confident adding you to my sx 4 knowledge bank yet for some reason although I'm not sure of your type. In comparison, you seem a lot more lighter (not as in not intense but more positive and against negativity) than sx/sp 4, sort of like a faery. More positive outlook seeming at least and with a more free spirited aura to you. More mergy. 9 wasn't my first guess with Kore but it would be easier to see for you. It may be the kind of tri-fixations I've seen too though but if really a 4 core, I would think 479>459 provided all that. Main issues with 4 aside from that is you not seeming to relate much with envy (although this may be counter-envy of sx 4) and not identifying with hate or being hateful which Ichazo even nicknamed Sx 4 once, lol. But I'm not sure, do you feel you relate to what you quoted?

    The descriptions are a bit darker and extreme, yeah. Beatrice Chestnut (who you quoted) follows Naranjo but being a type is being fixated anyways and too much of anything is bad, right? Even for 7 traits. While I don't feel happy or ever really satisfied, my mother, sister and others have commented in how worried they are for how 'happy' I seem especially in cases where I shouldn't be. You would think being happy is good but too much happiness can even be bad. Mom is Sp 6 though, she told me she wishes she was as happy-go-lucky as me the other day.

    I(would like to) think most people can be better versions of themselves and that most of them are average or unheathy. To be honest, this seems like average for sx 4, they are probably the most intense type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olly From Wally World View Post
    Hahaha, oh I wasn't referring to you. While you've given me more insight about social last and maybe even sx/sp, I'm not as confident adding you to my sx 4 knowledge bank yet for some reason although I'm not sure of your type. In comparison, you seem a lot more lighter (not as in not intense but more positive and against negativity) than sx/sp 4, sort of like a faery. More positive outlook seeming at least and with a more free spirited aura to you. More mergy. 9 wasn't my first guess with Kore but it would be easier to see for you. It may be the kind of tri-fixations I've seen too though but if really a 4 core, I would think 479>459 provided all that. Main issues with 4 aside from that is you not seeming to relate much with envy (although this may be counter-envy of sx 4) and not identifying with hate or being hateful which Ichazo even nicknamed Sx 4 once, lol. But I'm not sure, do you feel you relate to what you quoted?

    The descriptions are a bit darker and extreme, yeah. Beatrice Chestnut (who you quoted) follows Naranjo but being a type is being fixated anyways and too much of anything is bad, right? Even for 7 traits. While I don't feel happy or ever really satisfied, my mother, sister and others have commented in how worried they are for how 'happy' I seem especially in cases where I shouldn't be. You would think being happy is good but too much happiness can even be bad. Mom is Sp 6 though, she told me she wishes she was as happy-go-lucky as me the other day.

    I(would like to) think most people can be better versions of themselves and that most of them are average or unheathy. To be honest, this seems like average for sx 4, they are probably the most intense type.
    Yep, I can relate to parts of it very well, especially competition and perhaps arrogance which I have struggled with more in the past. My aunt instilled a type of hatred in me from an early age (before I can remember) and I hated lots of things growing up, like religion and authority. I have had way more therapy than most sx 4s I imagine and in the process have learned a lot about myself and how I developed psychologically. I think the biggest thing for me is to maintain some kind of control of my emotions or things go bad quickly. I am learning to respond instead of react but sometimes I can lash out harshly and/or punish people. Mostly I end up punishing myself and realizing I am blaming someone else for my feelings which is never good. It is all a balancing act and I will keep looking for my balance even if it kills me. <-- so melodramatic!

    I do not shy away from or judge my negative feelings like a 479 so I am not exactly the "gentle spirit" even though some people see me that way. I don't really care what most people think of me unless I care about them. 459 works way better for me. I do enjoy peace but mostly when I am focused on my own stuff and do not wish to be bothered.

    I knew you were not referring to me though.



    Last edited by Aylen; 11-18-2014 at 07:32 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    I'm personally of the view that dividing socionics into just 16 types is an attempt to use Jung's theory in a way that's not Jung's theory but something way, way larger in terms of the number of categories playing (we have to remember Jung originally wrote just 8 types, and it became 16 because of the common admixture of the auxiliary function with the dominant function, and that was all the information supposed to be gotten at by his types), so I think if anything, if someone wants a small, manageable number of categories, one cannot hope reasonably in all cases that "every" measure (Reinin, forms of cognition, Jungian dichotomies) will say the same thing empirically even if they all can be said to be meaningfully equivalent in some theoretical formulation. In other words, I'd say that socionics has an independent foundation, which is being used for practical diagnosis by way of admixture with Jung. The independent foundation is the potential energy to work conversion formula. I'd say the most meaningful way to reduce socionics to 16 categories is to take the forms of cognition and multiply it by the 4 quadras. Said differently, isolate your quadra and isolate your form in context of that quadra's values. This will not necessarily get you the same as a Jungian dichotomies diagnosis, but it strikes me as the correct sociotype formula.

    This is not how most practical diagnosis appears to occur, however; I think rather, the diagnosis appears to occur more on account of a mixture of quadra values and Jungian dichotomies mixed together. But it strikes me that if this is the methodology, one should not expect the sociotype formulas like polrs to necessarily work. The polr is actually a consequence of the process/result formulation as I understand it - it's the "end of the cycle" of information transformation, and this cycle is given from forms of cognition....ok really it was there before forms ever was described, but I think forms is the most descriptive version of what the cycle gets at.
    I agree for the most part chemical. I've loosened up my view of correlations between e-types and sociotypes A LOT over the time, also my view of sociotypes themselves, so I agree on your view of someone possibly being IxI or whatever and in that case it's probably best to take a look at quadra values (in case a person can't figure out his cog styles and Reinin doesn't match or is interpreted in different ways, as is often the case). Identifying as Ni dom isn't a bad deal either .

    As I already said, I'm very skeptical of typing by intertype relationships, although I'm aware they're the point of socionics - too many other factors shape human relations. The descriptions of intertype relations are also very vague and can be often spinned in any way someone pleases to justify why they don't get along with someone, supervise someone or misunderstand each other.


    Also @Kore, not to sound like a dick and just throw some assumptions and not explain my reasonings behind them...I've had you as beta rational for a long time, but then wasn't sure any more.

    You somehow don't seem self-conscious and withdrawn enough for 4w5 sp/sx to be your core type (if E4, 4w3 would make more sense with all your focus on the aesthetics and vanity), but remembering that video of yours you've posted I admit you seemed quite different there and more introverted/reserved.

    Something just doesn't sit well with me, but I'm sure you will figure it out by yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epheme View Post
    These are guesses, obviously. But the sp/sx 4w5 seems pretty clear.
    Actually the more I think about it, I think you could be 4w3 or perhaps a balanced wing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I can't say anything about enneagram type, but I think IEI over ILI. You come off as very charming and charismatic, unlike ILI's with their Fe difficulties. You've also stated several times that you're horrible with your finances and tend to buy whatever you want, which is a very IEI Te PoLR characteristic. IEI's are whimsical, live in fantasy and tend to buy things on a whim. ILI's on the other hand with their strong Te paired with Ni tend to be quite frugal, and good with their finances (I'm sure @Scapegrace can vouch for this if she still identifies as ILI).
    This is one part of the IEI description that I don't identify with. I'm good with my finances and find it very easy to live off a budget. I pay my bills on time and I never indulgently buy things even though I love beautiful and well made things. However I don't really care about money. Like I don't consider money when taking a job or if someone needs money I'll give it to them and not ever think about it again and stuff like that (but I'm trying to care more because I realize it's better for me long-term to care). I don't know if this is a consequence of having to take care of myself (and not having anything) from a very young age though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post

    Also @Kore, not to sound like a dick and just throw some assumptions and not explain my reasonings behind them...I've had you as beta rational for a long time, but then wasn't sure any more.

    You somehow don't seem self-conscious and withdrawn enough for 4w5 sp/sx to be your core type (if E4, 4w3 would make more sense with all your focus on the aesthetics and vanity), but remembering that video of yours you've posted I admit you seemed quite different there and more introverted/reserved.

    Something just doesn't sit well with me, but I'm sure you will figure it out by yourself.
    A little red imp on my shoulder is saying you were taking me for your dual, which is funny
    I am always super introverted in videos, as I have nobody in front of me to interact with.
    Also it's quite difficult to grasp the essence of an idividual in 2 videos, 3 talks over a thread and some chat in the shoutbox.
    Not saying you are right or not right about 4w3 though. Thanks for your thoughts anyway.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    A little red imp on my shoulder is saying you were taking me for your dual, which is funny
    I am always super introverted in videos, as I have nobody in front of me to interact with.
    Also it's quite difficult to grasp the essence of an idividual in 2 videos, 3 talks over a thread and some chat in the shoutbox.
    Not saying you are right or not right about 4w3 though. Thanks for your thoughts anyway.
    There is a typing video of you?

    Edit: Links please

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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    There is a typing video of you?
    There was, I deleted it long time ago.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    There was, I deleted it long time ago.
    Links of gtfo as the saying goes

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    Hmmm I am starting to think some 3 for you @Kore, but I do not know enough about enneagram to say with certainty, I will perhaps give this some consideration.

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    I don't see 3 as core type for me. Wing3 is to mull over.


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    ^ Sounds good

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kore View Post
    Interesting point, thanks for your output.
    Np glad to be of service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epheme View Post
    This is one part of the IEI description that I don't identify with. I'm good with my finances and find it very easy to live off a budget. I pay my bills on time and I never indulgently buy things even though I love beautiful and well made things. However I don't really care about money. Like I don't consider money when taking a job or if someone needs money I'll give it to them and not ever think about it again and stuff like that (but I'm trying to care more because I realize it's better for me long-term to care). I don't know if this is a consequence of having to take care of myself (and not having anything) from a very young age though.

    I'm with you there, I've had a similar thought lately as well.
    Being good with finances is not type related, and comes from NEEDING to be good with finances.
    It's how one goes about managing those finances that might be type related. For example, the other night on tinychat, @HandiAce (currently self-typing LSE) tallied up his grocery spending for the month. I am careful to not overspend my means best I can, but tallying up expenses, much less monthly and much much less, while socializing, is not something I would be remotely interested in doing
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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