How types react to rejection

[jewels]

I'm curious how different types react to rejection. This is what I've observed...tell me if it matches your experience or not.

After hearing "I just want to be friends".......

ESTJ: Is cool with it. Will continue to hang out as friends, while meanwhile trying to persuade you that he is the coolest and all other guys suck. Doesn't seem hurt/offended in the slightest.

ESFJ: Will convince you it is somehow your fault that you want to be friends. Or remind you that it was you who initiated things in the first place (even if you didn't). Lots of "Just remember, this is all your fault" stuff.

ISFJ: Will try to convince you that whatever your reason for wanting to not date them is wrong.

ISTP: No response, doesn't seem to care at all. You'll wonder if you presumed too much by even thinking they were into you. Perhaps they just wanted to get pizza and you were around?

ESFP: Will agree w/ all of your reasons for just being friends and then be incredibly charming to the point you forget why you wanted to be just friends in the first place.

ISFP: Will be pissed and insult you.

INFP: Don't seem to care and just fade away easily.

ENTP: Would talk you out of it with confusing, persuasive thoughts that sounded right at the time. With your head spinning from his "logic," you agree to keep seeing him. And then he'll break up w/ you. (one-up thing?)

ENFP: Will be very uncomfortable and awkward next time you run into each other and will say something like "yes, well. I'd better go get some cheese from the buffet..."

As an ENFP, I would react by being very "professional" to them. I'd say something like "well yeah, not everyone is a match! " Then I'd run home, sob, hold onto the anger for far too long, and wish bad things would happen to him. I'd then go to great lengths to improve every aspect of my life, in case I ever would run into him. And like a year later I'd forget all about it. Though that could be just me though.

[Creepy-bg]

I've never gotten pissed over it (I've rarely even admitted to it)... when I do I just end up feeling like shit since I've never had it returned in the right way. So I guess I'm more like "Why me? this just sucks... thanks alot God!" then I go back to secret crush land

[Sorc]

ENFj .. he can think or he was not good enough and will try to be better and if he havestill some things that can doubt him that refuser meant actually what he said he may persuade.
in other case he may just wish luck and dissapear being not hostile not friendly just indifferent without any desire to see that person.
In case something was done/said wrong by refusing person he even can completely erase the person, not being friends even, or even will do something to leave some mental stuff that will cause to have some disorder to person who refused such cute and open-hearted person.
In case all was good and refusing person said that sentence being clear and sure to ENFj he will only smile wish luck and will always think good about that person for being genereously straigt, open, righteous and friendly. ENFj will thank that.

However - Past is very important to ENFj so all depends of cause itself and background. If it bad - bad reaction, good - good reaction, Not clear - he will try to persuade things or just force them to fall into one of corners - bad or good to end uncleariness as fast as possible.

[FDG]

I'm okay with it if we haven't started dating...

if we're dating, I get very pissed pissed at first, then understand.

[Joy]

Are we talking about ending a relationship... or not getting into one to begin with? I'll assume it's the former.

I don't really think of it as rejection. It's just finding out that it wouldn't work. There are lots of people it wouldn't work with... it's not like there's anything wrong with understanding that. I would actually very much appreciate that (s)he actually told me that he's not interested and that it wouldn't work out instead of avoiding the situation and leaving me to figure it out on my own.

Not knowing the status of the relationship is what I can't handle.

[raisonpure]

INFP: Don't seem to care and just fade away easily.

I've always been the one to say "I just want to be friends"

I also have this strange fear of people who harbour a romantic interest in me before we reach the friendship stage (don't like to be pursued by someone I don't know enough to trust), so I guess I wouldn't care about that particular rejection line. I would disappear from their lives if their rejection stemmed from my lack of , however.

[Joy]

I also have this strange fear of people who harbour a romantic interest in me before we reach the friendship stage (don't like to be pursued by someone I don't know enough to trust), so I guess I wouldn't care about that particular rejection line.

My sentiments exactly.

[Joy]

Something about this topic bothers me... I don't think that the how a person handles rejection is type related. It has more to do with the situation and the health of the person and that person's experiences. Some people receive more attention from the opposite sex than others. It's not fair to assume that the way a person deals with that sort of thing is type related. That's like telling someone that they are or aren't a certain type based on the number of relationships they've had. Two people of the same type can also have very different approaches to relationships as a result of their experiences. For example, a very attractive female is going to get a lot more attention and be presented with far more opportunities for relationships than just your typical, average guy of the same type. I think people who have ADD are far, far more likely to have more relationships and shorter relationships than people who don't due to chemical processes that occur in one's brain in the beginning of a relationship. Again, this is especially true of people who are presented with opportunities for relationships quite frequently. Also, to expand further on what raisonpure said, I think that people who have strong feelings for someone they're not with for a long period of time are creepy and unhealthy, especially if they know that they have no chance of being with that person.

What's the point in holding on to feelings for a person who you can't be with? That just seems like masochism to me.

[Creepy-bg]

...words...ADD...more words...brain chemisty...yet more words...unhealthy...

lol I just remembered what it feels like to want to strangle my monitor

nice to have you back Joy

[jessica129]

I don't exactly agree with the ISTP description. I think from outside appearances, it may appear I don't care at all, but seceretly in my own little world I get really down and depressed when it comes to rejection of any kind.

[Expat]

INFP: Don't seem to care and just fade away easily.

I've always been the one to say "I just want to be friends"

For an Ni IP female, that's probably often the case.

[Blaze]

doesn't one's response to rejection depend upon how strong the attachment was in the first place?

i agree with the entp one to a point, especially if there was any kind of vindictiveness on the part of the rejector.

if i was really hurt, i think i'd just accept it and prolly feel depressed for a little while.

[FDG]

Ah by looking at the reactions, I usually behave the same way as the ESFP. I'll say "Okay" and then next time I see her casually i'll retry to seduce acting just like she said nothing. Not that this works particularly well.

[eunice]

ENTj: selfish and possessive. Find it hard to let go of the person.

INFj (me actually): Ask for the reasons behind his decision. Try to control the situation and convince the person why he made a wrong decision in not dating me. However, if I have the same sentiments (i.e. feel that he's not suitable for me after getting to know him better), I prefer to be the one who initiate the rejection.

Anyway, I don't date someone until I'm very sure that I really like him and know him well enough (i.e. his background, personality, hobbies, friends etc.)

[UDP]

ESFJ: Will convince you it is somehow your fault that you want to be friends. Or remind you that it was you who initiated things in the first place (even if you didn't). Lots of "Just remember, this is all your fault" stuff.

Whoooaaaaah! Yes, yes, I will second that. It is ALL your fault, Very good description, in my experience.

[UDP]

doesn't one's response to rejection depend upon how strong the attachment was in the first place?

i agree with the entp one to a point, especially if there was any kind of vindictiveness on the part of the rejector.

if i was really hurt, i think i'd just accept it and prolly feel depressed for a little while.

It seems like these are all (in the first post) descriptions of people who actually still want to be with you.

[BLauritson]

Ben's experiences:

1) Following the break-up with my INFj ex. Agreed to stay friends, although later discovering that she still wanted me (despite being the one to initiate the break up.. psychotic bitch¹) I cut the contact completely. Then spent half a year bitter about it after realising how emotionally manipulative she'd been and how I'd let her do it, too naïve to realise what was happening. I doubt this is type related, rather situation related. Half a year later, after an ENFj friend had a go at me (not in a hostile way) about being bitter about the whole thing, and the fact that said INFj was organising my ENFj friend's leaving do (the three of us worked at the same place, although I'd since left) meant I had to re-establish contact with her to find out the details. I agreed, deciding it had been long enough and decided to give her another chance as just friends. Same thing happened again, so I cut the contact permanently from then.
2) Following a non-verbal rejection from an ENFp I was infatuated with. She probably didn't even know I was infatuated with her, she later got with some other guy whose type I do not know. I think I managed to avoid showing any surface emotion, although inside I felt a mixture of depression at the situation and anger that I'd got myself attracted to her when I could tell for a long time that nothing was going to happen. Oddly enough, for a few days I found comfort in listening to bands like Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park. I honestly have no explanation for this - I don't normally listen to nu metal.
3) Following an email rejection from an ESFp I work with (I'd emailed her asking her out.. first time I've ever had the courage to approach anyone actually), I thanked her for the quick response and asked if we could just forget the whole conversation ever happened, to which she agreed. I was disappointed, but not hurt. Nowadays it really is as though I'd never asked her out, we're still on good terms.

¹ Since no doubt someone will misinterpret what I'm saying here, I'm not implying all INFjs are psychotic (I know a few here and there). This particular INFj did indeed have psychological issues due to various things during her childhood. When we were together I did genuinely try to help her with this, but she refused to accept it. Looking back on it, I think that was one thing that added to the bitterness, amongst other things.

[jewels]

Interesting posts everyone! Please note that I was not trying to say "all xxxx types act like this____" but rather, that was just my own experience w/ those types. I was curious what your reactions/experiences were. If someone has had a different experience w/ any other types, do tell!

@FDG, that's interesting that you do the same thing as the ESFP did. I find if a guy is charming enough, it sometimes does change my mind.

@Thanks Diana!

@UDP, glad it wasn't just me who had that experience. It's actually the worst for me to have that reaction, because I hate to feel obligated to people, or like they have expectations of me. So saying "you should have done x" makes me feel icky. The guys who are cool w/ me doing whatever and still want to hang out actually make me reconsider.

@BLauritson, what is your type?

@eunice, I could see a lot of INFJs reacting like that. I have a lot of INFJ friends and I'd imagine that's what they'd do. They seem so calm and collected about things. Wish I was more like that!

@Jessica129, I really need to meet more ISTPs so I understand this stuff. I think I have an incorrect idea that ISTPs are like super human and move on without even looking back, leaving past people in the dust. I must remind myself ISTPs are not all James Dean and Angelina...I think I may have been reading too many type desriptions

@diamond8, Yeah I agree w/ you that one's reaction does have to do w/ how strong the emotional attachment was, definitely. These were all cases where I knew someone for a short period of time and things were still formal (like 1-3 dates usually). So there wasn't very much closeness at that point.

@Joy, to clarify...yeah I meant prior to having a relationship w/ them. Usually 1, no more than 3 dates. But I'm not sure if it'd make that much of a difference though. I'm definitely not trying to define how ALL people of a certain type react to rejection, but was curious what everyone's experiences were.

@Carla, so how do you think INTJs would react in terms of their behavior?

@Bionicgoat, haha. Yeah, the "thanks a lot god" part is so true. And secret crush land isn't a bad place to live actually! I have a summer home there.

@Sorc, I could see ENFJ reacting like that, as far as trying to persuade them, and then getting pissed eventually and just dissapearing. I forgot to include ENFJ but that was basically my experience too.

@raisonpure, that's nice you were always the one to tell them to just be friends! I wish I had that record, but I don't. You must tell us your secret Are you a girl? Because you mentioned not liking it when people had romantic interest before they knew you as a friend, but if a guy thinks you're hot, I guess they have to start somewhere, right? that's kinda what guys do though, right?

What creeps me out is a guy assuming we're in a relationship from the get go. Like, inviting me to dinner w/ his parents on a third date or selecting the "license to wed" movie for a 2nd date. In my head I'm like "ahhhhh!" Don't get me wrong, I like committment! But not knowing the person at all before hand, that's like buying your entire wardrobe without trying it on. This is probably why I like guys who don't seem to want commitment at all, lol. Or maybe not? I wonder if it's an ENFP thing of wondering what's around the next corner? I think it may actually be that I go out w/ people and give them a chance even if they don't seem that intersting, and when they aren't that intersting, I'm surprised.

wow, check out my super long post! sorry for the novel, lol.

[UDP]

For myself, (LII)...

It depends on what sort of mood I am in at the time. If I feel it is coming on, and am my usual level self, then there will be minimal visible reaction. I may even bring it up before you do - because I do not want to waste my time being with someone who does not want to be with me. So from the logical end, I have no problems discarding relationships that are not going where I want them to go. So, I may just acknowledge it, and make a quick exit. After it happens, I would not stay around to see if you changed your mind.

In the Alpha section of the forum, I wrote about "Fi Severity"* of the LII, or at least, of myself. Basically it is a matter of gears turning somewhat, and once they lock into place, it is quite static, solid. So if it seems like it is going no where, I will have no problems switching gears and locking them into place - moving on, reducing your involvement in my life.


The flipside of that is if I do not see it coming, or am unaware of what is going on. This is much more 'devastating', because it is direct measure of incompetence in my understanding of the situation. If I do not see it coming, I may react worse off, depending on how emotional I am at the time. But I believe I have gotten better at this as I have gotten older (one thing that points to that being true is that I have not experienced that situation in years). But it is nonetheless there. If I am surprised, I will repeatedly ask you to explain yourself*, so I understand it fully, even if I do not want believe it. Indeed, as it says on a few profiles, one of the most unsettling things for an INTj/INTJ is a relationship ending abruptly and not being able to understand why. I may become angry at the person involved, if I think they are acting in an illogical or foolish way.


My ultimate conclusion, and the one I suggest to everyone else always, is that if someone does not want to be with me, then I am not going to go out of my way to change their mind. Let us move on and stop wasting each others time. Sure it may hurt, but I would rather experience it now than a week or month later. For better or worse, I say on of my strongest areas is discarding relationships that are of no use to me (personal ones, that is). "He toughens himself, training for the cold, starvation, losses and disapproval of others"



* "So, this is your opinion of me?!"

[Expat]

ENTj: selfish and possessive. Find it hard to let go of the person.

Why do you phrase it as "selfish"?

The problem is that by the time the ENTj actually shows obvious interest in a person, they're already attached, so "find it hard to let go" is accurate; I disagree with "selfish" and "possessive". If there was already the impression of some reciprocity, cliche phrases like "we are not compatible" will leave the ENTj unsatisfied and lead to demands for more precise explanations and perhaps to argue why the "we are not compatible" thing is bullshit - but NOT necessarily to get the person to change their mind, a frequent misunderstanding. It's more, "don't think you can fool me with bullshit explanations that make no sense".

But in very early stages, a simple statement like "I'm just not interested in you" is enough to get the ENTj off your back. No dual-seeking Victim will insist.

[Joy]

The problem is that by the time the ENTj actually shows obvious interest in a person, they're already attached, so "find it hard to let go" is accurate; I disagree with "selfish" and "possessive". If there was already the impression of some reciprocity, cliche phrases like "we are not compatible" will leave the ENTj unsatisfied and lead to demands for more precise explanations and perhaps to argue why the "we are not compatible" thing is bullshit - but NOT necessarily to get the person to change their mind, a frequent misunderstanding. It's more, "don't think you can fool me with bullshit explanations that make no sense".

That sounds like more of an individual thing. (All of these descriptions do.)

There's something that seems to be overlooked in this thread, and in general when discussing how one's behavior in relationships relates to Socionics. There are people who can't turn around without having opportunities for relationships fall into their laps, and there are people for whom opportunities for relationships present themselves less frequently:

• - Someone who can't be single for a week without several people trying to hook up with them is more likely to have confidence in the likelihood that they'll be able to enter a relationship whenever the want to, and then "go for it" (in one way or another) when they see someone who they're attracted to. This is likely to be true of any type.
  
  - Someone who is not as frequently presented with opportunities for relationships is going to be less confident that they'll be able to enter a relationship whenever they want to. This is also likely to be true of people of any type. (Though some types will be more likely "go for it" in one way or another anyways, some will be less likely.)

Also, people for whom opportunities for relationships are plentiful, rejection isn't that big of a deal because there will soon be (or already are) other possibilities. They would be less likely to get too attached to the idea of being with one particular person without having some idea of how likely it is to work out, and they'll be less reluctant to try to find out. If the other person isn't interested, they'll want to know that sooner rather than later so they don't put too much of their time and energy and emotions into the idea of having a relationship with that person.

It's all about supply and demand, I guess. When supply is high, the item isn't as valuable. When supply is low and the demand is the same, it is more valuable.

Now, that said... Do you really think that Te types, especially Te dual seeking types, who can hook up with someone pretty much whenever they want to is going to stay single for long and pine for someone who doesn't want to be with them when they could easily find someone else who they're attracted to and who seems both stimulating and trustworthy and will provide Fi?

I can see how Gamma NTs who fall into the second category above could spend long periods of time alone, longing for a close relationship with someone they can trust. It makes sense that they would have fewer relationships and be alone more of the time until they find the right person. However, a Gamma NT who falls into the first category is far more likely to be what implied refers to as a "serial monogomist" until they finally find the right person.

But in very early stages, a simple statement like "I'm just not interested in you" is enough to get the ENTj off your back. No dual-seeking Victim will insist.

Yes, this is probably true of pretty much any healthy ENTj. Why would they want to be with someone who isn't providing them with Fi? (Though if they had a close relationship to a person and were hurt, especially if that person was providing Fi and then suddenly yanked it away and tried to say it was never really even there to begin with, they will probably hurt for a while whether they're with someone else or not.)

[Expat]

The problem is that by the time the ENTj actually shows obvious interest in a person, they're already attached, so "find it hard to let go" is accurate; I disagree with "selfish" and "possessive". If there was already the impression of some reciprocity, cliche phrases like "we are not compatible" will leave the ENTj unsatisfied and lead to demands for more precise explanations and perhaps to argue why the "we are not compatible" thing is bullshit - but NOT necessarily to get the person to change their mind, a frequent misunderstanding. It's more, "don't think you can fool me with bullshit explanations that make no sense".

That sounds like more of an individual thing. (All of these descriptions do.)

As far as it goes, it's perfectly consistent with base and dual-seeking. If there is already a sense of , all the more the expectation of factual truth . Nothing to do with the "supply and demand" bit, which is valid if the wasn't that ingrained to begin with.

[Joy]

The problem is that by the time the ENTj actually shows obvious interest in a person, they're already attached, so "find it hard to let go" is accurate;

This is the part that most of my post was a response to and what the "supply and demand" stuff is about. Someone who is confident that there are many people out there who they are compatible with and who will want to be with them is not going to get as "attached" to someone who they're not actually involved with. (I'm not saying that an ENTj won't be at all disappointed if they thought they had a good chance of having a relationship with someone and found out otherwise, but the last thing you said, "a simple statement like 'I'm just not interested in you' is enough to get the ENTj off your back. No dual-seeking Victim will insist", describes that situation well.)

If there was already the impression of some reciprocity, cliche phrases like "we are not compatible" will leave the ENTj unsatisfied and lead to demands for more precise explanations and perhaps to argue why the "we are not compatible" thing is bullshit - but NOT necessarily to get the person to change their mind, a frequent misunderstanding. It's more, "don't think you can fool me with bullshit explanations that make no sense".

You're talking about breaking up with someone who one was actually in a relationship with, not a typical rejection, which is what this thread is about if I'm not mistaken.

[Expat]

You're talking about breaking up with someone who one was actually in a relationship with, not a typical rejection, which is what this thread is about if I'm not mistaken.

I tried to address both actually -- the example you quoted above referred to something like a rejection after three dates or whatever. I agree it was fuzzy.

[BLauritson]

@BLauritson, what is your type?

I be an INTp

[FDG]

The problem is that by the time the ENTj actually shows obvious interest in a person, they're already attached, so "find it hard to let go" is accurate;

This is the part that most of my post was a response to and what the "supply and demand" stuff is about. Someone who is confident that there are many people out there who they are compatible with and who will want to be with them is not going to get as "attached" to someone who they're not actually involved with.

Bullshit! This is ridiculous. You're applying the law of supply and demand to relationship! You understand that attachment is irrationa, right? I'm completely horrified by your view on the matter. If you fall in love with somebody you ain't gonna think , oh, well, who cares, I can have other girls too. No, because you want that specific person, not others. Christ fuck.

AND you can develop big crushes even before being involved, yes. At least I do.

[Joy]

A big crush is far different from an attachment that would require an explanation if the other person didn't want to be with you.

And you're right about the "who cares I can have other girls too" thing when there's a relationship and an actual attachment... I was referring to rejections from people you think you might be interested in but were never in any type of actual relationship with.

[implied]

i go batshit crazy.

[Joy]

i go batshit crazy.

even if there was never any type of relationship... you were just interested in possibly starting one?

[FDG]

A big crush is far different from an attachment that would require an explanation if the other person didn't want to be with you.

And you're right about the "who cares I can have other girls too" thing when there's a relationship and an actual attachment... I was referring to rejections from people you think you might be interested in but were never in any type of actual relationship with.

No no no. There's no difference. Really. If I crush on somebody I already know/I talk to/I see sometimes, it's just like when I've got a relationship. I've had crushes and relationships, and the "love" I felt during the relationship was exactly the same feeling I had when I got the crush. Also, I still become very agitated when I hang around crushes I had when I was 13-14, even if there was no actual relationship.

[Joy]

A big crush is far different from an attachment that would require an explanation if the other person didn't want to be with you.

And you're right about the "who cares I can have other girls too" thing when there's a relationship and an actual attachment... I was referring to rejections from people you think you might be interested in but were never in any type of actual relationship with.

No no no. There's no difference. Really. If I crush on somebody I already know/I talk to/I see sometimes, it's just like when I've got a relationship. I've had crushes and relationships, and the "love" I felt during the relationship was exactly the same feeling I had when I got the crush. Also, I still become very agitated when I hang around crushes I had when I was 13-14, even if there was no actual relationship.

Fi PoLR

[Expat]

Fi PoLR

I don't think that's a sign of Fi PoLR.

[implied]

i go batshit crazy.

even if there was never any type of relationship... you were just interested in possibly starting one?

probably something like FDG states. if it's already in my mind that i like you, regardless if there's a "formal" relationship established, it'll hurt pretty bad when you reject me, in whatever way. although i try not to show that.

[Joy]

Fi PoLR

I don't think that's a sign of Fi PoLR.

Unvalued and possibly weak Fi. (Fi PoLR in his case.)

Of course, I could be wrong.

[FDG]

A big crush is far different from an attachment that would require an explanation if the other person didn't want to be with you.

And you're right about the "who cares I can have other girls too" thing when there's a relationship and an actual attachment... I was referring to rejections from people you think you might be interested in but were never in any type of actual relationship with.

No no no. There's no difference. Really. If I crush on somebody I already know/I talk to/I see sometimes, it's just like when I've got a relationship. I've had crushes and relationships, and the "love" I felt during the relationship was exactly the same feeling I had when I got the crush. Also, I still become very agitated when I hang around crushes I had when I was 13-14, even if there was no actual relationship.

Fi PoLR

That seems to be anthitetical to Fi polr actually. Isn't Fi polr something like not having deeply felt but never expressed feelings? And isnt't that situation the opposite?

[FDG]

Fi PoLR

I don't think that's a sign of Fi PoLR.

Unvalued and possibly weak Fi. (Fi PoLR in his case.)

Of course, I could be wrong.

Why unvalued? Explan your crappy reasoning

[BLauritson]

No no no. There's no difference. Really. If I crush on somebody I already know/I talk to/I see sometimes, it's just like when I've got a relationship. I've had crushes and relationships, and the "love" I felt during the relationship was exactly the same feeling I had when I got the crush. Also, I still become very agitated when I hang around crushes I had when I was 13-14, even if there was no actual relationship.

Likewise. Well, not that I really had any crushes when I was 13-14, I was too emotionally immature back then, but either way the same concept applies for me.

On a completely different note, I think I should add to what I've said before (responding to the original thread again now) that I often get depressed if I'm rejected, or at least think I'm rejected, by someone. Although that's probably nothing unique. Definitely makes me become very negative though, even if only for a short time.

[KSpin]

No no no. There's no difference. Really. If I crush on somebody I already know/I talk to/I see sometimes, it's just like when I've got a relationship. I've had crushes and relationships, and the "love" I felt during the relationship was exactly the same feeling I had when I got the crush. Also, I still become very agitated when I hang around crushes I had when I was 13-14, even if there was no actual relationship.

Likewise. Well, not that I really had any crushes when I was 13-14, I was too emotionally immature back then, but either way the same concept applies for me.

On a completely different note, I think I should add to what I've said before (responding to the original thread again now) that I often get depressed if I'm rejected, or at least think I'm rejected, by someone. Although that's probably nothing unique. Definitely makes me become very negative though, even if only for a short time.

Yes. "Oh fuck it, what's the point?" and then you think about the person that rejected you and you get angry/sad all at once.

[BLauritson]

That describes me exactly . Unfortunately I was at the gym earlier when I was having one of these moments.. memo to self, be more careful with gym equipment . Not that I damaged anything, but..

[Joy]

Explan your crappy reasoning

There is no need to address me in such a manner.

Someone with strong, valued Fi wouldn't feel exactly the same about someone they merely have a crush on as they would someone they're in a serious, long term relationship with. And someone with weak, valued Fi would not want a partner who feels no more for them than a crush, and never will.

Perhaps you're trying to say that your feelings for your crush were very serious... but it sounds more like you're saying that your feelings of "love" (as you put it) in your relationship weren't.