Potty-mouthed princesses

[ashlesha]

ive been reading youtube and facebook comments about this video...its getting a lot of attention and the variety of opinions is interesting.

my opinion:
i think the message that people are gonna raise more hell about the kids swearing than they are about the fact that at least one of them is likely to be sexually assaulted is obviously a valid one, since thats exactly whats happening (ugh). but for that reason the video is preaching to the choir and isn't gonna reach those kinds of people anyways.

also with fckh8 being a for-profit organization that is more concerned with selling t-shirts than actually helping a cause..a shock value commercial for t-shirts...okay. maybe it will also get a message across too, but the number of people who flock to it versus the number of people who feel alienated from the message because of it, meh, i'm ambivalent.



whats your opinion?

[Radio]

the swearing part is pretty distracting and the message gets lost in-between the supposed irony.

also telling children that it's ok to swear is kind of irresponsible, since it's obviously not. these things are more nuanced than "swearing is just words don't be offended come on noo don't".

[Aquagraph]

Angry messages usually are liked by those who are already on their side. They also seem to polarize people into ideological clicks. To me it's kinda backwards that MRAs and feminists are apparently enemies of sorts.

[ashlesha]

you are totally right @Aquagraph but i do also think the crazy, angry people play an important role in any movement.

that role is not convincing other people to join in, though.

[darya]

Totally unrelated (will watch later), but my first association after reading the title was IEI girls - they have always seemed like princesses with R-rated mouth to me

[marooned]

my reaction is thinking the video is stupid and the creators definitely idiots. the line about "teaching MEN not to RAPE" particularly annoyed me just because the vibe i get is that "MEN" are the bad people out there and they need to be "TAUGHT not to RAPE" because naturally being male predisposes one to being a "RAPIST." i was also annoyed about the comment about caring about what one's "ASS" looks like as i feel this issue goes well beyond FEMINISM. western society is permeated with people who look like plastic with dumb gendered ideals for both men and WOMEN; and how you look is certainly seen as being of UTMOST importance in our DUMB mtv hollywood hormone driven INDUSTRY of STUPIDITY. (also i don't really have a problem exactly with the plastic looking people in that i know some people are naturally incredibly attractive, but i do have a problem with how being attractive is just SO IMPORTANT beyond anything else... and i think it's gone to extremes in media and in terms of what is expected of people.)

i guess really that i'm over feminism and i want something that addresses the sensitive and serious issues that both sexes face. it's true that in the western world, equality hasn't been established yet for women... but i think so much momentum has already been gained that it will be achieved and there's little anyone can do to stop it. i'm starting to be more concerned about the impacts on men since women have now long been western society's little darlings in the inequality movement. it's okay for women to make these sorts of videos as "they've" been so wronged for so long... but if/when men make little videos about what they're ENTITLED TO, oh, imagine the outrage. i'm just tired of the women vs. men crap really and i think this video is ineffective in doing anything other than bringing together a bunch of people who like shouting their hot-headed view points in each other's faces, and using little kids to do it for them (*points finger* : the EXPLOITATION of CHILDREN to soapbox for you... where's the HUMANITY?!)

speaking of which, people going on about what they're entitled to often really irritates me, unless marvel movie loki does it of course.

[ashlesha]

@inumbra do you think there should also be white history month and straight pride parades for equal representation?

[marooned]

@inumbra do you think there should also be white history month and straight pride parades for equal representation?

no. i think the months are stupid. although if some people like having a month, more power to them. i just think only addressing women's issues misses the mark. there's another side to this coin. this is actually a different sort of animal than say "racial issues." men and women *both* suffer because of society's expectations for each sex and feminism can pretend to address all of this since how women suffer is more blatant... but it can't possibly thoroughly address the undercurrent of men's issues that are more subtle and harder to spot.

to further point out how this is a "different animal"... i don't suffer in society because i'm "white." i still have almost nothing but advantages from this, many of which i probably can't even see because i don't know what's it's like to not be so advantaged. there aren't any expectations placed upon me "as a white person," at least i don't feel anything like that. i am allowed to just be a person in this sense.

neither men or women are allowed to just be people in our society. men and women both struggle with gender expectations.

to elaborate further about the months, black history month frankly reminds me of history textbooks in elementary school. after pages upon pages of the us presidents and the wars and so on, then there's a page "what were black people doing in the 1930s???" also, i can imagine that if there were a month devoted to "my kind of people" i'd probably just want to hide in my apartment all month if i'm identifiable as "this kind of person" because i don't want to be identified as a kind of person and have people look at me differently because i'm first, a kind of person, rather than just a person.

well, maybe not on the hiding in my apartment. i can go on oblivious to what others are doing, so perhaps that could work in my favor.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

[Aquagraph]

The case you won't like:

[jessica129]

How on earth is a video of a bunch of girls cussing supposed to raise awareness about anything other than the fact their parents have failed at life and will be stuck raising a classless, disrespectful jackass for the rest of their lives? You can be an "independent woman" without acting like trash.

Each day I have this overwhelming urge to not live on this planet anymore.

[suedehead]

Publicity. Some valid ideas. Exaggeration for effect. Beta, contra-flow.

[marooned]

The case you won't like:

i suspect this greatly understates things. rape and sexual assault are real problems. especially for women.

oh, and then at the end she flaunted ayn rand? agenda much? (unless she flaunts random books at the end of every vid?)

this wasn't even a good way to parody the original vid imo.

[marooned]

How on earth is a video of a bunch of girls cussing supposed to raise awareness about anything other than the fact their parents have failed at life and will be stuck raising a classless, disrespectful jackass for the rest of their lives? You can be an "independent woman" without acting like trash.

Each day I have this overwhelming urge to not live on this planet anymore.

it just means some adult(s) told them how to act and what to believe. i really actually do think it's kind of despicable considering how impressionable children often are. any message is more "dramatic" coming from the mouth of a child. the "makers" *know* that.

[Scapegrace]

This video is moronic and exploitative. Children shouldn't be tasked with selling a message they don't understand.

I too was particularly disturbed by the "boys are taught to rape" line. What the hell is that teaching these girls? All men are out to exploit them? That's incredibly sad.

And as with most American feminist rhetoric it's extremely poorly researched.

[ashlesha]

This video is moronic and exploitative. Children shouldn't be tasked with selling a message they don't understand.

there are definitely a lot of things about this video to be criticized no matter how you feel about the message on the whole. but i keep seeing the argument that its exploitative of the kids and i'm not really convinced. kids are in commercials and consumers and viewers of commercials and i cant imagine them not being used in this sense in our society no matter what the cultural norms are at the time. they pretend to be brutally murdered in movies and are in sitcoms full of adult innuendo. if this video is exploitative, it doesn't stand out as such among everything else. when i was that age i think i would have had a blast doing that.

[Aquagraph]

i suspect this greatly understates things. rape and sexual assault are real problems. especially for women.

Of course they are and that's why it would be extra nice not to lie about the facts, especially when done with little girls that they probably convinced to believe that one of them will be raped. All this just to have a political prop. If 1 in 5 women actually would be sexual assault victims, politicians would advocate banning college campuses and drinking. But telling that rape is as bad as it is in Somalia.. Sorry, but do check your priviledge as an American.

oh, and then at the end she flaunted ayn rand? agenda much? (unless she flaunts random books at the end of every vid?)

There is an agenda and a target audience, but she is just as right as she would have been if she displayed Mein Kampf instead.

this wasn't even a good way to parody the original vid imo.

I don't like it that much either.

[ashlesha]

the 1 in 5 statistic isn't a LIE. the sample size of the study was really small, but to call it a lie makes it sound like someone just pulled it out of their ass.

If 1 in 5 women actually would be sexual assault victims, politicians would advocate banning college campuses and drinking.

some people do advocate for this. i don't. saying something cant be true bcuz of some theoretical "obvious" consequence has to be some kind of fallacy?

[Scapegrace]

there are definitely a lot of things about this video to be criticized no matter how you feel about the message on the whole. but i keep seeing the argument that its exploitative of the kids and i'm not really convinced. kids are in commercials and consumers and viewers of commercials and i cant imagine them not being used in this sense in our society no matter what the cultural norms are at the time. they pretend to be brutally murdered in movies and are in sitcoms full of adult innuendo. if this video is exploitative, it doesn't stand out as such among everything else. when i was that age i think i would have had a blast doing that.

I actually acted a lot as a kid. Including some pretty um... racy plays. I don't feel like I was effected by that stuff because I knew it was an act.

Here is the difference: selling cheerios, and pretending to be murdered do no effect a child's forming world view. These girls are being made to believe that they're victims. I don't care if they're saying "I'M PRETTY FUCKING POWERFUL" the message is that they're PRETTY FUCKING VICTIMIZED and that as a girl: 1.) You're going to be raped, because men think it's okay to do that, men are rotten. 2.) You won't be rewarded for your efforts because you're a woman. 3.) It's wrong to WANT to be feminine, even if you want to.

To be clear, this isn't a problem I have with this particular video, but with women raising their daughters in this victim-y way.

[Aquagraph]

The 20% college rape rate of females is contradictionary.

Today I learned that most of the people I've had sex with were engaging in sexual violence according to CDC:

[ashlesha]

Here is the difference: selling cheerios, and pretending to be murdered do no effect a child's forming world view. These girls are being made to believe that they're victims. I don't care if they're saying "I'M PRETTY FUCKING POWERFUL" the message is that they're PRETTY FUCKING VICTIMIZED and that as a girl: 1.) You're going to be raped, because men think it's okay to do that, men are rotten. 2.) You won't be rewarded for your efforts because you're a woman. 3.) It's wrong to WANT to be feminine, even if you want to.

selling cheerios and pretending to be murdered do affect anybodys world view. if something is normal to you, then you just don't notice that its being sold to you 24/7. i think being encouraged to stand up in the face of adversity and say "this isn't ok" is the opposite of learning to be a victim.

[ashlesha]

The 20% college rape rate of females is contradictionary.

Today I learned that most of the people I've had sex with were engaging in sexual violence according to CDC:

there are a million studies that say a million different things, but i know from living my life that the rate is higher than it should be. if 1 in 5 is enough for it to be a serious problem, how much lower must you estimate it to be in order for you to be upset that some people treat it as a serious problem? 1 in 10? 1 in 15?

[Aquagraph]

if 1 in 5 is enough for it to be a serious problem, how much lower must you estimate it to be in order for you to be upset that some people treat it as a serious problem? 1 in 10? 1 in 15?

I'm "upset" because it is a serious problem and the discussion around it has been poorly executed.

[marooned]

There is an agenda and a target audience, but she is just as right as she would have been if she displayed Mein Kampf instead

she is "right" that the original vid is sensationalist and is meant to be shocking and dramatic. that really is the entire point of the original video as far as i'm concerned. it so gracelessly attempts to shove its message down the viewer's throat that its intended point is likely to be upchucked in response.

she may be right that the two oft referred to stats she counters are misleading or wrong. but really her parody seems to be saying, see everything's just fine for women (these problems are all illusions!) the only real problem for women is how the government makes them into victims and won't leave them alone => no gun control and get the government out of my life. this is why i think it's a bad parody. she may have a point in that women are often painted to be victims, but taking away the paint doesn't change the fact that many women *are* victims of sexual violence and that things are not yet equal between the sexes.

to nitpick: displaying mein kampf at the end of the video would have been utterly contradictory since she wants less government control and interference so it would have diluted her message a little, and in a very small way, made her "less right."

[marooned]

there are definitely a lot of things about this video to be criticized no matter how you feel about the message on the whole. but i keep seeing the argument that its exploitative of the kids and i'm not really convinced. kids are in commercials and consumers and viewers of commercials and i cant imagine them not being used in this sense in our society no matter what the cultural norms are at the time. they pretend to be brutally murdered in movies and are in sitcoms full of adult innuendo. if this video is exploitative, it doesn't stand out as such among everything else. when i was that age i think i would have had a blast doing that.

i see it as exploitative in the sense of feeding children propaganda and having them spew it to the masses. it's underhanded and a little pathetic. of course one can get armies of children marching to their cause. children are more likely to lap up whatever seemingly trustworthy adults feed them. they aren't finished developing their reasoning abilities or critical thinking skills and are sometimes actively looking to adults to tell them what to think. anyway, perhaps the video makers didn't try to indoctrinate the little kids and the appearance of such can be chalked up to good acting.

that aside, i was actually more bothered by the use of the children to make it more dramatic and shocking so as to manipulate the emotions of the viewer. that media is awash with attempts to manipulate emotions and that there are plenty of child actors out there doesn't really make the video appear any less detestable to me (i don't need to compare it to all the other media in the world to be detested by it). i often don't like it when people try to manipulate my emotions and the video is incredibly loud in the way it just screams in your ear to get on board with its righteous cause (for the children!). if it wasn't trying to do this, and trying to do it in such an in-your-face way, i wouldn't have commented at all.

(and to present a wonderful contradiction, i'm not detested by 'feed the children' commercials that play heartrending music while showing images of starving, suffering or sad children. this is probably because i don't entirely doubt the intentions of the organization making the commercials--or rather, i'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. i understand why they are trying to manipulate people's emotions and i don't doubt the necessity of doing so to bring in more donations.)

oh, and my absolute favorite part of the video is when the adults finally make an appearance. i know they may have simply been actors (although i doubt they'd be in this if they didn't agree), but it looked like a puppet show where the puppet masters actually came out to be part of the show. there was something oddly amusing about that.

[willekeurig]

As far as I'm concerned the 20% less for the same job is not true. Like the libertarian girl Aquaraph posted said, the number comes from comparing the male vs female median salaries. What I don't understand is why this is supposedly a valid argument for ending the discussion about pay gaps. I think we should sacrifice a little time into thinking WHY it is like that - why do female dominated jobs have so much lower salaries? Why don't more females get past middle-management level positions in companies? How do our cultural narratives, media focuses etc affect people's choices? Do employers in "gendered" fields consciously or unconsciously favour applicants of the gender that is stereotypically considered "fit" for the job? What can we do about these things?

A couple of interesting videos/articles I've seen lately:

About womens advancements in company hierarchies:
http://www.ted.com/talks/susan_colan...bly_didn_t_get
How/why the precentage of female computer scientists dropped in the 85's after strong cultural narratives about it being a "men's thing" were created:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2014/...ampaign=buffer

[willekeurig]

What comes to the sexual assault thing, I think we need to first define what we mean by sexual assaut in order for the conversation to be meaningful.
Will 1 in 5 women in western countries be raped during their lifetime? Probably not. Will 1 in 5 women in western countries have to experience e.g. unwanted groping, non-physical yet sexually threatening behaviour (men shouting after you while walking alone at night, trying to force themselves into your company, someone trying pressure/argue you into having sex with them etc), unwanted sexually coloured comments and evaluations about their body parts and general attractiveness? The number sounds rather optimistic.

[darya]

the 1 in 5 statistic isn't a LIE. the sample size of the study was really small, but to call it a lie makes it sound like someone just pulled it out of their ass.

This statistic never seemed outrageous to me, from the people I know. Or even if we say 10-15% it's still a huge number. People just usually keep their mouth shut about these things, so ofc nobody suspects anything.

As for college campus rapes, they are often perpetrated by the repeated offenders.

And no offense to all men, but they really can't put themselves into women shoes and see how we experience these things. Or be so sure/vouch for their friends, who are otherwise oh so nice, how they behave when they are alone with women (and possibly drunk).

[blackburry]

I think my negative reaction to it isn't the message it's trying to relay... It's just that I like accurate well-researched facts... Anything less just seems like ill-executed "propaganda," and takes away from the message.

[xerx]

The problem with investigating date rape is that often it's a "he said, she said" situation, whereas courts need hard evidence to convict even serial killers. I don't say this to diminish the magnitude of the crime by any means.

[darya]

I think my negative reaction to it isn't the message it's trying to relay... It's just that I like accurate well-researched facts... Anything less just seems like ill-executed "propaganda," and takes away from the message.

I don't like the video at all either

[mu4]

Soon we'll be talking Kony 2012 and dead cat masturbation again.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I made it about halfway through. Swearing aside, that video is fucking obnoxious.

my reaction is thinking the video is stupid and the creators definitely idiots. the line about "teaching MEN not to RAPE" particularly annoyed me just because the vibe i get is that "MEN" are the bad people out there and they need to be "TAUGHT not to RAPE" because naturally being male predisposes one to being a "RAPIST."

I don't know where you are from, so I'm not attempting to be patronizing by spelling this out for you. Over here, there's a pretty big clash over rape awareness and prevention. A lot of people feel that telling women all the ways they can avoid being victimized (don't drink, watch what you are wearing, watch where you are walking, make sure you're in a group of friends) puts all the burden of prevention upon the potential victim and none of the responsibility on the potential rapist. It isn't about saying that men have a predisposition to rape; in fact, they would argue that in teaching men about consent and respecting women regardless of their situation, they are giving men far more credit and general autonomy than those who treat male rapists like unstoppable forces of nature who are slaves to their penis and can only be avoided with careful maneuvering by the potential victims. I'm leaving my personal opinions out of this and merely trying to explain the reasoning behind what the video was criticizing, so please keep that in mind should you choose to respond.

[Scapegrace]

selling cheerios and pretending to be murdered do affect anybodys world view. if something is normal to you, then you just don't notice that its being sold to you 24/7. i think being encouraged to stand up in the face of adversity and say "this isn't ok" is the opposite of learning to be a victim.

Err. No. They don't. That's work. It's play acting. It's fun.

Now I could be wrong, but I think that these girls are doing this video because their mothers agree with its message. And if they do, they're sending a shit message to their daughters and I don't like that. Men are not -- by definition -- rapists, most men find that sort of behavior appalling because they're decent human beings.

And getting boohoo getting paid a little less for the same work is not ADVERSITY (even though that's a bullshit statistic and I don't believe it for one second). It's a minor inconvenience. Getting your clitoris cut off, and your pussy sewn shit, or being stoned for getting rape is adversity. American feminists need to get their shit together, because it sure as fuck doesn't look like they care about WOMEN, it looks like they care about AMERICAN WOMEN, and they like to needlessly bitch about very minor problems.

[ashlesha]

Now I could be wrong, but I think that these girls are doing this video because their mothers agree with its message. And if they do, they're sending a shit message to their daughters and I don't like that. Men are not -- by definition -- rapists, most men find that sort of behavior appalling because they're decent human beings.

i'm always confused when i hear this because its not the message i hear at all, or what i think, and i've never heard anybody say it.

And getting boohoo getting paid a little less for the same work is not ADVERSITY (even though that's a bullshit statistic and I don't believe it for one second). It's a minor inconvenience. Getting your clitoris cut off, and your pussy sewn shit, or being stoned for getting rape is adversity. American feminists need to get their shit together, because it sure as fuck doesn't look like they care about WOMEN, it looks like they care about AMERICAN WOMEN, and they like to needlessly bitch about very minor problems.

nobody i know is comfortable with women getting their clits cut off either. most of the news i get about stonings and issues facing women globally is from feminist media.

[marooned]

I don't know where you are from, so I'm not attempting to be patronizing by spelling this out for you. Over here, there's a pretty big clash over rape awareness and prevention. A lot of people feel that telling women all the ways they can avoid being victimized (don't drink, watch what you are wearing, watch where you are walking, make sure you're in a group of friends) puts all the burden of prevention upon the potential victim and none of the responsibility on the potential rapist.

i know what the video is criticizing. try broadening your mind and consider that i can both not agree with blaming the victim or putting it all on women to prevent rape and take issue with the video and the obnoxious "why not teach MEN not to RAPE?!!!11111???1111111111" line. that the video addresses real issues in society for women doesn't excuse or make up for its great many failings in my eyes. i'm rather astounded that the only thing you would consider in responding to me is "where i'm from" while seemingly? making some rather careless assumptions about what i know or think.

It isn't about saying that men have a predisposition to rape; in fact, they would argue that in teaching men about consent and respecting women regardless of their situation, they are giving men far more credit and general autonomy than those who treat male rapists like unstoppable forces of nature who are slaves to their penis and can only be avoided with careful maneuvering by the potential victims. I'm leaving my personal opinions out of this and merely trying to explain the reasoning behind what the video was criticizing, so please keep that in mind should you choose to respond.

ah. i hope "they" is not the video or its makers as they did not say this. i imagine "they" don't believe that all men are rapists lying in wait for an opportunity to strike. but my imagination cannot speak for them.

also, really, i think teaching all men not to rape like this would be insulting... it would be targeting them just because they are male as potential rapists.

and frankly a lot of rapists have some serious issues and really can't seem to control themselves very well. a lot of them perhaps are "unstoppable forces" who need to be removed from society for everyone's safety. this is a slightly different subject in a way because i'm not meaning to imply that all rapists are unable to control themselves or imply that inequality and prevalent attitudes regarding women aren't a big part of the picture where male-on-female rape is concerned.

[marooned]

i'm always confused when i hear this because its not the message i hear at all, or what i think, and i've never heard anybody say it.

i don't know if this means not hearing the message that all men are potential rapists just because they're men in the video in the op? in either case, that was kind of the message that i heard from it and from that line because it's about teaching men as a group not to rape... as though every man should be pulled aside and given a little training or something on the topic of controlling his urges that compel him to go at it with any woman despite her protestations. being male doesn't at all equate to being a potential rapist even if most rapists are male, which is stating the obvious, but the way the video presents it is in this almost accusatory way pointing at "men" (all men). in its characteristic graceless fashion, the video tramples all over the topic and is not careful to not do more harm than good.

[ashlesha]

i don't know if this means not hearing the message that all men are potential rapists just because they're men in the video in the op? in either case, that was kind of the message that i heard from it and from that line because it's about teaching men as a group not to rape... as though every man should be pulled aside and given a little training or something on the topic of controlling his urges that compel him to go at it with any woman despite her protestations. being male doesn't at all equate to being a potential rapist even if most rapists are male, which is stating the obvious, but the way the video presents it is in this almost accusatory way pointing at "men" (all men). in its characteristic graceless fashion, the video tramples all over the topic and is not careful to not do more harm than good.

when you spell it out like that it makes more sense to me why some people would hear that message in it. i've always understood it as putting rape in the same category of other things we teach people not to do, like steal or cheat. which we officially do, but the message is a reaction to the implicit currents in the media & culture that contradict the official stance, ie. steubenville, slut shaming, blaming victims, etc. i mean technically me and you both are potential rapists. so i dont see it as presuming anything about men any more than anything else men are taught not to do. personally.

[marooned]

i mean technically me and you both are potential rapists. so i dont see it as presuming anything about men any more than anything else men are taught not to do. personally.

it presumes that men are rapists but women aren't. women don't need a special training. men do. of course it's unacceptable that women have to worry about whether their dress and behavior equate to interpretations such as coming across as someone who's just "asking for it" when that's not the case at all. but to be all, "let's throw this back in the faces of the RAPISTS: MEN" is just a really aggravating response that doesn't appreciate the fact that not all men are rapists. it's the same sort of thinking: woman in tight skirt = wants sex (even if she says "no"); heterosexual male = rapist unless he gets trained not to rape. was the video being intentionally absurd with this? kind of doubt it.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

i know what the video is criticizing. try broadening your mind and consider that i can both not agree with blaming the victim or putting it all on women to prevent rape and take issue with the video and the obnoxious "why not teach MEN not to RAPE?!!!11111???1111111111" line. that the video addresses real issues in society for women doesn't excuse or make up for its great many failings in my eyes. i'm rather astounded that the only thing you would consider in responding to me is "where i'm from" while seemingly? making some rather careless assumptions about what i know or think.

I am American, and this is an international forum, so I prefer not to assume that everyone is aware of the gender politics behind this sort of campaign (which is US-based). I am not asking you to agree with their rhetoric, simply attempting to make sure that you understand what you are arguing with. As such, I don't understand the mildly hostile tone of your response, nor am I particularly receptive to it. Concerning your suggestion that I broaden my mind and consider that the words a complete stranger presents on a page might not fully represent their full views on a matter, please keep in mind that I claim absolutely no powers of mind-reading and thus prefer to work with what is actually in front of me.