LIEs/ENTjs and loyalty

[yifflord]

[Redacted]

[Aquagraph]

I'm just spitballing here.

I think this attitude of seriousness is an especially healthy one when discussing socionics. Or at least, I just personally find it more entertaining.

Welcome to the forum. Nice avatar.

[anndelise]

This LIE professor is known for being harsh in general but he is notorious for being much more harsh and interrogative when marking students working with external supervisors in comparison to students that go with a supervisor from within the faculty.

What would you say his thought process behind this would be? Is he being tactical-- is it a kind of sabotage? Or is he being harsh because he thinks of it as betraying the faculty? I'm just spitballing here.

It could be related to the money going elsewhere. One LIE on here had something like a 'if you're with them, and i don't like them, then you have to choose me or them' attitude. Which could be similar to the professor.

It could also be reputation related. Like the reputation of internal faculty might let him know what to expect from the student's work, and if you're going to choose external help, then the student better make damned sure it's excellent help.

[yifflord]

Thanks, Aquagraph. I'm saving the fart jokes for when I become more familiar with the forum. For now I'm going to write my posts like I'm an overachieving 5th grader attempting their first formal essay.

And I've been throwing around similar ideas but I'm unsure of how someone would rationalise those motives in a Fi-valuing way (primarily what I'm curious about), especially since marking a student harshly isn't really going to increase your funding. One more student applying for a grant out of the thousands of students across the country can't possibly be that big of a deal.

[FDG]

He's nuts

[Amber]

What does this have to do with being "LIE and loyalty"?!

[yifflord]

Assumed loyalty to the faculty that trained you and taught you as an undergrad and BRUTAL PUNISHMENT for forsaking the faculty by choosing an external supervisor instead of an internal one. I'm interested in knowing if anyone agrees with his actions and if so, details as to why.

[FDG]

Assumed loyalty to the faculty that trained you and taught you as an undergrad and BRUTAL PUNISHMENT for forsaking the faculty by choosing an external supervisor instead of an internal one. I'm interested in knowing if anyone agrees with his actions and if so, details as to why.

Pure sadism and deterrence should be enough as motivators, no?

[yifflord]

Sure, but man, I was hoping that there would be something to it other than using spritely up-and-coming young scientists as examples of what happens when you dare to leave the faculty and being a huge tool. Even if you do your undergrad with the faculty you have the option of doing it through another faculty on campus altogether, so even as a deterrent it's a shitty one. He seemed like a stand up guy before I found out that he grilled some poor kid working with an external supervisor for a day and a half about the finer details of western blotting.

[FDG]

Sure, but man, I was hoping that there would be something to it other than using spritely up-and-coming young scientists as examples of what happens when you dare to leave the faculty and being a huge tool.

Ahah, "spiritely up-and-coming young scientists". I gather you are still somewhat idealistic about academic/science life

[yifflord]

Ahah, "spiritely up-and-coming young scientists". I gather you are still somewhat idealistic about academic/science life

I am, but I hear that with funding going the way it's going I'm liable to losing that at any second, so right now I am trying to preserve my pluck and verve while I steel myself for the inevitable.

[blackburry]

hmm...is there a way you can ask him? (without him putting you on his shit list?)

[yifflord]

hmm...is there a way you can ask him? (without him putting you on his shit list?)

No way in hell. I guess I am cursed to alternately scratching my head in confusion and querying strangers on the internet about his motives.

[kopyk]

Overall, just stay the hell away from academia. It's a huge, exploitative SCAM (so are MANY other things in society, btw). Have a look at http://skepchick.org/2011/12/part-ii...ia-food-chain/ . & that's just scratching the surface of how much academia sucks, how unfair, limiting, exploitative & arbitrary it can be.

[yifflord]

Overall, just stay the hell away from academia. It's a huge, exploitative SCAM (so are MANY other things in society, btw). Have a look at http://skepchick.org/2011/12/part-ii...ia-food-chain/ . & that's just scratching the surface of how much academia sucks, how unfair, limiting, exploitative & arbitrary it can be.

Time to abandon society by packing my gear and moving to the woods where I will probably die in a predictable sensing-deficient fashion.

[blackburry]

@zap....that can describe any job.

[FDG]

@zap....that can describe any job.

yeah, but it's normally not masked as "doing science for the benefit of humanity"

[Amber]

Overall, just stay the hell away from academia. It's a huge, exploitative SCAM (so are MANY other things in society, btw). Have a look at http://skepchick.org/2011/12/part-ii...ia-food-chain/ . & that's just scratching the surface of how much academia sucks, how unfair, limiting, exploitative & arbitrary it can be.

how many years of experience in the academia do you have ...you seem so versed. (not an idealist ...just asking)

[Tonatiuh]

Overall, just stay the hell away from academia. It's a huge, exploitative SCAM (so are MANY other things in society, btw). Have a look at http://skepchick.org/2011/12/part-ii...ia-food-chain/ . & that's just scratching the surface of how much academia sucks, how unfair, limiting, exploitative & arbitrary it can be.

1. Start up.
2. Cash in.
3. Sell out.
4. Bro down.

[InvisibleJim]

Zapturbation

[InvisibleJim]

and just what is that supposed to mean?

Google it.

[InvisibleJim]

that could mean two different things tho. Could mean the results hat come up when I googled zapturbation, which was nothing, meaning you say you're saying nothing at all. Or you could be referring to my earlier posts ITT. Clarify?

Bolded.

[kopyk]

fair enough. @InvisibleJim @Agni @FDG @Reficulris... you might wanna take al ook at this 1st batch of links. I know @octo @April @Smilingeyes also have some experiences w/ academia. btw, the 1st link leads to a thread I made on physicsforums back when I considered becoming an academic.

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...fields.492033/

https://web.archive.org/web/20090106...eb99_page2.htm

https://web.archive.org/web/20081118...eb99_page1.htm

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/415643.article

https://web.archive.org/web/20090504...nce_Indicators

https://web.archive.org/web/20130203...pdf/994994.pdf

http://web.archive.org/web/200701040....net/guide.htm

http://web.archive.org/web/200701060...t/rankings.htm

http://individual.utoronto.ca/shamighosh/postdoc.htm

http://youngfemalescientist.blogspot...urned-out.html

http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/sci...38/nj7464-613a

http://www.theguardian.com/higher-ed...lish-academics

http://bulliedacademics.blogspot.com...uption-in.html

http://contemplativemammoth.wordpres...ster-syndrome/

http://www.psmag.com/navigation/busi...andsome-18377/

http://science-professor.blogspot.co...up-ladder.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivory_tower

http://paperbackbone.com/2014/04/10/...-social-class/

http://poetrywithmathematics.blogspo...titled-to.html

http://xkcd.com/435/

http://burro.case.edu/Academics/USNA...arrogance1.pdf

[InvisibleJim]

fair enough. A,B,C,D... you might wanna take al ook at this 1st batch of links. I know X, Y, Z also have some experiences w/ academia. btw, the 1st link leads to a thread I made on physicsforums back when I considered becoming an academic.

No.

[IBTL]

What does this have to do with being "LIE and loyalty"?!

Go and read about what LIEs want from their duality partners. LIEs will bumble through people like they're air until they find the right person to cover their flanks, who happens to be an ESI.

Ahhh! I just realized something. Who is in front of an ESI in the ring of benefit? An SLI. (But the SLI is not a loyalist, he's an opportunist just like the other VS cognition folks.) The SLI naturally assumes he's in a better position than the ESI, because of his benefit relationship with the ESI, but that doesn't have to be true unless it's quantifiable to the LIE. (Who does the LIE pick while sucking down air?) The SLI must truly be in a better position to qualify himself before the LIE's better judgment. The same should apply to all of the other benefit partners in the natural order within the ring.

Maritsa is a wannabe EII who's really an SEI. It happens...

[Amber]

Go and read about what LIEs want from their duality partners. LIEs will bumble through people like they're air until they find the right person to cover their flanks, who happens to be an ESI.

Ahhh! I just realized something. Who is in front of an ESI in the ring of benefit? An SLI. (But the SLI is not a loyalist, he's an opportunist just like the other VS cognition folks.) The SLI naturally assumes he's in a better position than the ESI, but that doesn't have to be true unless it's quantifiable to the LIE. The SLI must truly be in a better position to qualify himself in front of the LIE. The same should apply to all of the other benefit partners in the natural order within the ring.

Maritsa is a wannabe EII. It happens...

Go fuck yourself

with benefit rings and whatever else gives you satisfaction. The situation described by the op is not a rare case in the academic world. NTR and not "loyalty" related imo -- at least not in the sense of Fi loyalty.

[yifflord]

The situation described by the op is not a rare case in the academic world.

I am defs not looking forward to finding out firsthand how common this is/might be in academia.

[FDG]

The situation described by the op is not a rare case in the academic world.

I agree. And really, in just 2 years of supervising bachelor's and master's theses, I have seen enough attempts at "cheating the system" - this guy has likely seen much worse stuff, so I think his behavior is "understandable"...

[FDG]

fair enough. @InvisibleJim @Agni @FDG @Reficulris... you might wanna take al ook at this 1st batch of links. I know @octo @April @Smilingeyes also have some experiences w/ academia. btw, the 1st link leads to a thread I made on physicsforums back when I considered becoming an academic.

I don't know, zap. To be honest, in my case, the point was more practical: I likely was not going to be "top of the world" in my field (thus I would have had a really hard time finding a permanent position in 7/10 years, given the extreme level of competition). I was a top student at my uni but when you get to phd level, everyone is the top student of his uni. That, and the fact that I was going to be "forced" to move a lot every 2-3 years to find any kind of work. That, and the fact that the pay isn't even that good, and you don't interact with ppl for weeks, and if you don't get the "right" results you can go on forever, etc. etc. etc.

[yifflord]

I agree. And really, in just 2 years of supervising bachelor's and master's theses, I have seen enough attempts at "cheating the system" - this guy has likely seen much worse stuff, so I think his behavior is "understandable"...

What would be an example of an attempt to "cheat the system"?

[FDG]

What would be an example of an attempt to "cheat the system"?

Plagiarism, sudden change of supervisor to an "easier" one if anything non-standard is required (while I had already done some initial idea-work for them), attempts at making me write part of the thesis (lol), attempts at suddenly changing the topic and whining if i disagree. It's not a large percentage of people but they're there.

[Alomoes]

He's nuts

Thanks. I take that personally. Same type, and all so logically, anything that is targeted to him is targeted to me. Maybe strength will come from numbers. I want to test the limits of the system. So far it hasn't broken.

Thought about it, and probably not. Well, you're not alone.