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Thread: War inside of the mind

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    Default War inside of the mind

    I think internal struggle/war between your personal values leads to a higher level of understanding of reality, and thus allows you to debate and climb high enough in the details to the point where it doesn;t matter to most people and they are forced to settle for your side. I think this is why wars can be good for the world as a whole, because the more enlightened the world becomes, the more ballanced a society can appear to most people. It is similar to making a fish tank so large that the fish dont even notice the glass.
    -Slava


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    Default Re: War inside of the mind

    I guess it's an only Alpha-NT belief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    I think this is why wars can be good for the world as a whole, because the more enlightened the world becomes, the more ballanced a society can appear to most people.
    It's too much optimistic from the view of social epidemiology.
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    What do you mean "internal struggle/war between your personal values"?

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    Default Re: War inside of the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    I guess it's an only Alpha-NT belief.
    No, its not.
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    Default Re: War inside of the mind

    Quote Originally Posted by oyburger
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    I guess it's an only Alpha-NT belief.
    No, its not.
    At least none of my business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca
    What do you mean "internal struggle/war between your personal values"?
    Being exposed to the good and the evil of both your own type values and your conflict's values, to the point where its hard to decide what your own values are, and also dealing with other peoples problems at the same time. Once the war ends and you come out with a decided type, it is so developed that you may appear typeless. I think this may happen with kids who have conflicting parents.
    -Slava


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    I'm afraid to say that your line of thinking sounds incredibly scary from my point of view. What you wrote could almost be interpreted as the old "divine right" of the victor in a trial by combat - whoever wins must be right and therefore enlighten the world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I'm afraid to say that your line of thinking sounds incredibly scary from my point of view. What you wrote could almost be interpreted as the old "divine right" of the victor in a trial by combat - whoever wins must be right and therefore enlighten the world.
    Isn't this how everything works in the world? Debates escalate until one party can no longer go deeper because of a lack of detailed udnerstanding? Usually the person who puts more thought into something gets to make important decisions. Devine right = genetics. The brain and the liver inside of a body both have a devine right to whatever they both do. But what does this really mean?

    Another reason why the victor enlightens the world is because there is no absolute rights and wrongs, someone defines them, and the people at the bottom who cant see the top begin to think that what trickles down to them is the correct and only way, but once in a while you get a very curious person who asks many questions and climbs the ladder of knowlege only to find that there is much ambiguity and turbulence at the top. Most people preffer to live in the matrix however rather than even know the existance of the outside. Most people can't handle too much reality.

    "With great power comes great responsibility" -Spiderman 2
    -Slava


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    *A bunch of ectopistes migratorius flys on the rise to prove the importance of conservation*

    ...How much are they responsible for their extinction? Or how did they thrive on the conservationism in their lifetime?

    I know it's an irrelevant example, but I have no other idea to tell you tragically lack of something (maybe ). Anyway it sounds like only an elitism to bring the rule of selective evolution into the human-only world, and it makes you...er...look ugly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Quote Originally Posted by Logos
    I'm afraid to say that your line of thinking sounds incredibly scary from my point of view. What you wrote could almost be interpreted as the old "divine right" of the victor in a trial by combat - whoever wins must be right and therefore enlighten the world.
    Isn't this how everything works in the world? Debates escalate until one party can no longer go deeper because of a lack of detailed udnerstanding? Usually the person who puts more thought into something gets to make important decisions. Devine right = genetics. The brain and the liver inside of a body both have a devine right to whatever they both do. But what does this really mean?

    Another reason why the victor enlightens the world is because there is no absolute rights and wrongs, someone defines them, and the people at the bottom who cant see the top begin to think that what trickles down to them is the correct and only way, but once in a while you get a very curious person who asks many questions and climbs the ladder of knowlege only to find that there is much ambiguity and turbulence at the top. Most people preffer to live in the matrix however rather than even know the existance of the outside. Most people can't handle too much reality.

    "With great power comes great responsibility" -Spiderman 2
    Either you're joking, or you're delusional. As far as reality goes, well you only see as much as your own mind-lens allows you to, and that lens is different for every person -- so we all have a little different glimpse of what's going on, but nobody can see the whole picture. my .02 Also, no matter how much we learn, or think we understand, it all goes through our personal filter, which distorts some things, leaves other things out, and only clearly views a few.
    He's supposing that if you actually are able to arrive at the top, then your preception of things must be correct, otherwise you wouldn't have been able to. There is anyway always the possibility that you have just guessed the random walk right, though it's pretty unlikely.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessy
    *A bunch of ectopistes migratorius flys on the rise to prove the importance of conservation*

    ...How much are they responsible for their extinction? Or how did they thrive on the conservationism in their lifetime?

    I know it's an irrelevant example, but I have no other idea to tell you tragically lack of something (maybe ). Anyway it sounds like only an elitism to bring the rule of selective evolution into the human-only world, and it makes you...er...look ugly.
    I'm not implying elitsim, I'm implying specialization and the fact that there are people who hold up the curtains to shield the others inside. This is fact. What do you think world conferences are for and debates, law suits. These are all high level battles where implications are dirived. These implications trickle down to everyone who doesnt think that big. This is true in law, science, ethics... Things that were battled out in the past do not have to be battled out in the future. This is what progress is weather or not you participate or not. I also agree that animals and plants and bacteria also play an important role, once again at a different scale, and the entire system is in ballance and has mechanisms for correcting disturbances. I am however reffering only to the human and even pet aspect. Notice how people usually want just answers and don't care much for the reasoning. Most people just have trusted sources for things, but who is the trusted source of your trusted source? Eh? I know a lot of people know science, but I also know that a lot of people don't check it over to make sure its what its advertised to be, most people lack the math skills and analytical ability to look that deep. I've always had issues with my science teachers because each one had a different view of the same thing and not a very wide knowlege of details. there are things that are never 100% certain but we have to round off at the top to come to a conclusion for those bellow, in that heirarchy. Those bellow do not know how that decision was made nor can they comprehend the process, if some knew how coin-flip certain theories are they would bug out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Either you're joking, or you're delusional. As far as reality goes, well you only see as much as your own mind-lens allows you to, and that lens is different for every person -- so we all have a little different glimpse of what's going on, but nobody can see the whole picture. my .02 Also, no matter how much we learn, or think we understand, it all goes through our personal filter, which distorts some things, leaves other things out, and only clearly views a few.
    Why is it not possible to see the whole picture in the form of a system? If everything has a purpose, then it can be systematized or at least classified. If it didnt have a purpose it wouldnt be here. Personal filter varies person to person, I've seen extremely ignorant people out there who shield themselves from as much of reality as possible and try to live in a fake world as much as they can, and then I've seen people who were forced to see the true reality and accept its harsh nature. There is a big difference in perception between these two types of people, and thats the reality. If you spend your entire life in one department of a company you won't get to see or know much about the whole, and you will have to rely on things that trickle down to you real or made up. If you are the CEO, you get to see it all, but you will miss the details that each detail job contains. Once again no elitism, each member handles the same job load, just different scale.

    Edit: Theres a big difference between delusion and insight. Most inventors and idea people were criticized the same way, not trying to say I'm one of them, but please be aware of the mechanism.

    A cat sits in its owners hands, the owner says, "I must be god I have full control and I am bigger", The cat thinks to himself, "I must be god, this fool feeds me and provides protection"
    -Slava


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    So it's lack of , possibly only an ENTx big picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    However, with your CEO analogy -- the thing is, there's no such thing as the CEO of the world. Nobody, not a single person, sees the whole picture, what they see is always, no matter how high up on the scale of power you go, it is always colored by that lens, that filter of their own perceptions.
    Each person has infinite different attributes, you can always be #1 at something. This I agree with, but the people who have to resort to being best at being themselves obviously either can;t find their tallent or don't have one, thus there is a heirarchy of some sort.

    Here is an example....

    Joe height: 6ft weight: 180 lb mile-time: 6:25
    Jim height: 4ft weight: 140 lb mile-time: 5:10
    Jack height: 5ft weight: 210 lb mile-time: 8:13

    Joe is in 1st place for most height, 2nd place for most weight, 2nd place in the mile. First place at being Joe.

    Jim is in 3rd place for most height, 3rd place for most weight, 1st place for mile time. 1st place at being Jim.

    Jack is in 2nd place for most height, 1st place for most weight, 3rd place for mile time and 1st place at being joe.


    Ask any Fe person, what society values most and they will tell you, it sure wont be being best at being yourself, so we can cross off that potential freebee on the table of ranks. now lets suppose that society needs taller people for one reason or another, Joe wins! Jow has the hieghest status. It doesn't matter how many other first places you have. Maybe for personal satisfaction and for potential of being useful in other fields, but the #1 valued attribute is what wins. Of course this system of heirarchy is nonsense and unreal to some types, so there are bridges for this, but it is a fact that in some fields such as science, information tends to trickle from the top. Although its not as rigid as I might make it sound, there are independant companies that do different things, but when it comes to understanding and explaining theory, thats a pure heirarchial structure. Same with tournament sports.
    -Slava


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    However, with your CEO analogy -- the thing is, there's no such thing as the CEO of the world. Nobody, not a single person, sees the whole picture, what they see is always, no matter how high up on the scale of power you go, it is always colored by that lens, that filter of their own perceptions.
    Each person has infinite different attributes, you can always be #1 at something. This I agree with, but the people who have to resort to being best at being themselves obviously either can;t find their tallent or don't have one, thus there is a heirarchy of some sort.

    Here is an example....

    Joe height: 6ft weight: 180 lb mile-time: 6:25
    Jim height: 4ft weight: 140 lb mile-time: 5:10
    Jack height: 5ft weight: 210 lb mile-time: 8:13

    Joe is in 1st place for most height, 2nd place for most weight, 2nd place in the mile. First place at being Joe.

    Jim is in 3rd place for most height, 3rd place for most weight, 1st place for mile time. 1st place at being Jim.

    Jack is in 2nd place for most height, 1st place for most weight, 3rd place for mile time and 1st place at being joe.


    Ask any Fe person, what society values most and they will tell you, it sure wont be being best at being yourself, so we can cross off that potential freebee on the table of ranks. now lets suppose that society needs taller people for one reason or another, Joe wins! Jow has the hieghest status. It doesn't matter how many other first places you have. Maybe for personal satisfaction and for potential of being useful in other fields, but the #1 valued attribute is what wins. Of course this system of heirarchy is nonsense and unreal to some types, so there are bridges for this, but it is a fact that in some fields such as science, information tends to trickle from the top. Although its not as rigid as I might make it sound, there are independant companies that do different things, but when it comes to understanding and explaining theory, thats a pure heirarchial structure. Same with tournament sports.
    *bangs head against the wall a few times*

    You're not getting it. So nevermind. Continue believing what you want to believe.
    I appologize for my lack of F perspective, but this is how it is in the world of Ti. The reality we live in comes from how we perceive it. So the way I see it is how it could be if I made it so. and the way you see it is how you would make it, to better fit what you would want. This is why culture has a type.
    -Slava


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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    However, with your CEO analogy -- the thing is, there's no such thing as the CEO of the world. Nobody, not a single person, sees the whole picture, what they see is always, no matter how high up on the scale of power you go, it is always colored by that lens, that filter of their own perceptions.
    Each person has infinite different attributes, you can always be #1 at something. This I agree with, but the people who have to resort to being best at being themselves obviously either can;t find their tallent or don't have one, thus there is a heirarchy of some sort.

    Here is an example....

    Joe height: 6ft weight: 180 lb mile-time: 6:25
    Jim height: 4ft weight: 140 lb mile-time: 5:10
    Jack height: 5ft weight: 210 lb mile-time: 8:13

    Joe is in 1st place for most height, 2nd place for most weight, 2nd place in the mile. First place at being Joe.

    Jim is in 3rd place for most height, 3rd place for most weight, 1st place for mile time. 1st place at being Jim.

    Jack is in 2nd place for most height, 1st place for most weight, 3rd place for mile time and 1st place at being joe.


    Ask any Fe person, what society values most and they will tell you, it sure wont be being best at being yourself, so we can cross off that potential freebee on the table of ranks. now lets suppose that society needs taller people for one reason or another, Joe wins! Jow has the hieghest status. It doesn't matter how many other first places you have. Maybe for personal satisfaction and for potential of being useful in other fields, but the #1 valued attribute is what wins. Of course this system of heirarchy is nonsense and unreal to some types, so there are bridges for this, but it is a fact that in some fields such as science, information tends to trickle from the top. Although its not as rigid as I might make it sound, there are independant companies that do different things, but when it comes to understanding and explaining theory, thats a pure heirarchial structure. Same with tournament sports.
    *bangs head against the wall a few times*

    You're not getting it. So nevermind. Continue believing what you want to believe.
    He's not speaking about absolute but relative values. He's correct in that respect: out of all human beings, if you are proven to be better at task X, you know about task X more than everybody else.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    That's what I'm trying to tell you! And being at the top of any of these artificial constructs does not neccessarily give you any clearer view than being at the bottom, or better yet off to the side, not enmeshed in such things. And you're not getting it. Why can't you get that?
    Because you are mentally above me, and thus I will rely on what you say without asking you to show me how you came to that conclusion :wink:



    BTW: take a look at the structural difference between capitalism and command socialism. You'll see that its all about implementation of reality, rather than... just reality.
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    soooooo, the war of the mind has now spread to the war over the internet about a war of the mind. got it. I think? It's wierd, i read this thread and it seems like people are kind of trying to say the same thing...but not, and the other doesn't get it because they think differently. Fuck it, I don't really get this stuff.

    My latest war of the mind was...should I eat a burger or order a pizza for dinner? Luckily, I have a mind that doesn't really think about things unless I ask it to...hahaha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka
    soooooo, the war of the mind has now spread to the war over the internet about a war of the mind. got it. I think? It's wierd, i read this thread and it seems like people are kind of trying to say the same thing...but not, and the other doesn't get it because they think differently. Fuck it, I don't really get this stuff.

    My latest war of the mind was...should I eat a burger or order a pizza for dinner? Luckily, I have a mind that doesn't really think about things unless I ask it to...hahaha.
    You should get some good chinese food from that place on Canyon Rd. that is after 217 right before Azteca. It's some cheesy name like Golden Palace but good lord that stuff is good. You can order it to go =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Science is not a task. It is a combination of many things, and there is no one person at the top. There are brilliant mathematicians (each with a different area that they are good at), renowed physicists, leading geneticists, etc. etc. etc. etc. and none of them can say "I am at the top,
    and just one of these top scientist can school any professor at my university without much effort in more than just science. Thats whats cool about intelligence, you don't need to memorize things that arent dirived, the more you dirive from scratch the more compact and deep your understanding is. See, with understanding you always need the bottom to understand the outter most concepts. Ti people all understand the same things if they establish how deep they know... if something is inconsistent it gets worked out pretty quickly, unless the premis is bias, and then it becomes a personal issues and the bias person is seen in a bad light. Specialization is not intelligence. but then again there are different kinds of intelligences, this is where the most valued tasks come into play who ever does them best is most useful.

    Its not about what you make with the tool, but what your tool can make. I could make very elegant 3D sculptures using a knife and block of gold, or I can make shitty plastic ones with a CNC machine. I would still preffer a CNC machine though over a knife.
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    *steps in so that SHE can get the last word over Diana and Slava*


    to ya both!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    *steps in so that SHE can get the last word over Diana and Slava*


    to ya both!
    Why does everyone seem to think that there's some sort of "war" or problem with this discussion? Yeah, I got a little frustrated, but I managed to get past that Come on, stop trying to ruin my fun!!
    I think what we are doing is a live example of how reality is held up. For those who lack persistance and have other things to expend energy on or just have less energy they live within the construct we just pushed and only ask for answers not the proofs.
    -Slava


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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    *steps in so that SHE can get the last word over Diana and Slava*


    to ya both!
    Why does everyone seem to think that there's some sort of "war" or problem with this discussion? Yeah, I got a little frustrated, but I managed to get past that Come on, stop trying to ruin my fun!!
    I think what we are doing is a live example of how reality is held up. For those who lack persistance and have other things to expend energy on or just have less energy they live within the construct we just pushed and only ask for answers not the proofs.
    could be...or could be that it finally reached a point where it felt as if you each were just trying to get the last word in.
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    Finally something I (semi-) agree with you on! The one things I disagree on is that you still orient your ideas around the collection of actual ideas in play rather than the collection of all ideas possible and/or any combination (limited) thereof. I sort of think that non-transposable processing will eventually be capable of existing adjacent in thought space by communicating in partial thought phrases that they have in common with intermediaries allowing for influence (?) / impact (?) but not communication with respect to certain frames of reference. So who do you think will be the first victims and conquerors in the thought wars once x/0 (the mental internet) is up?

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    One up = to sustain in time. For a curtain to be up it needs to be held up.
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    fields roil naked in the void

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Finally something I (semi-) agree with you on! The one things I disagree on is that you still orient your ideas around the collection of actual ideas in play rather than the collection of all ideas possible and/or any combination (limited) thereof. I sort of think that non-transposable processing will eventually be capable of existing adjacent in thought space by communicating in partial thought phrases that they have in common with intermediaries allowing for influence (?) / impact (?) but not communication with respect to certain frames of reference. So who do you think will be the first victims and conquerors in the thought wars once x/0 (the mental internet) is up?
    The internet is the mental internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    The internet is the mental internet.
    Yes and no. In its current form it does not describe what I have in my head. I agree it will though.

    When I said "a device to communicate thoughts, experiences, and personhood" or some such to a person directly Benny said something like "It's called a mouth." He was correct as well but the elaboration will be different though function will be "the same" (in the way looking at a rock is "the same" as listening to a song).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    The internet is the mental internet.
    Yes and no. In its current form it does not describe what I have in my head. I agree it will though.

    When I said "a device to communicate thoughts, experiences, and personhood" or some such to a person directly Benny said something like "It's called a mouth." He was correct as well but the elaboration will be different though function will be "the same" (in the way looking at a rock is "the same" as listening to a song).
    At quantum level cool things are possible faster than light communication is one of them, when the mind begins to see patterns and is able to interact with subatomic particles interesting perceptual changes will occur. The medium will be flooded with cellular calls however.
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    when the mind begins to see patterns and is able to interact with subatomic particles interesting perceptual changes will occur.
    that is already occuring just not in a structure conducive to maximum transmission. personally i believe we are "too large" for it. i don't see the end of the equation. i am not sure where "other" begins or if it is a necessary concept outside of thought with respect to very narrow input values.

    :edit2: fuck cell calls. a transposition of processes to all coordinate values!!! imagine several billion persons in life share unison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Quote Originally Posted by Slava
    when the mind begins to see patterns and is able to interact with subatomic particles interesting perceptual changes will occur.
    that is already occuring just not in a structure conducive to maximum transmission. personally i believe we are "too large" for it. i don't see the end of the equation. i am not sure where "other" begins or if it is a necessary concept outside of thought with respect to very narrow input values.

    :edit2: fuck cell calls. a transposition of processes to all coordinate values!!! imagine several billion persons in life share unison
    Very similar to the matrix, do you think thats how we are sometimes aware of other people being about to call and such? I always credited timing patterns.
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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    no. there will be no identity about a particular locus of physicality

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    On what level does such evolution occur... see this is where I do agree with Fi, that each level small or large is just as important no matter how many or little members the group has, in this case its something as small as quantum mechanical actions. But where does the top down motivation occur and by what social forces? One thing that is for sure, it is a result of war inside the mind
    -Slava


    What a great replacement for a nany

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