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Thread: Backlash against anti-rape nail polish

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    Default Backlash against anti-rape nail polish

    A few days ago I read about the invention of a special nail polish that can detect rape drugs in drinks like a litmus test. Apparently, some people criticize this. What do you think?

    Honestly, I don't understand it. You don't go to the person who invented the kevlar vest and ask them "Do you just want people to subtly avoid being murdered? Shouldn't we rather stop people from shooting each other?". And you would certainly not go to someone who was randomly shot and tell others "That guy had it coming, he didn't wear his kevlar vest!". Besides that, I think this nail polish was not invented to be subtle, but rather practical. As the article stated, you don't usually have a device that detects these drugs with you all the time, so this is a much more handy solution.

    However, I also think that the much-cited "victim blaming" is absolutely not limited to rape. What would you say about someone who wears their golden jewellery (maybe even unconsciously) in the poorest part of the city and gets robbed? Robbery and rape are always crimes, regardless of the behavior of the victim. And yet I think many people believe people are to blame if they deck themselves out with gold and get mugged.

    In a perfect world, nobody should get raped, robbed or murdered. But all these things happen and you can't stop people from doing them. Women should be able to run around naked if they please and still not get raped, but because we don't live in a perfect world, this behavior will very likely increase the chance of getting raped. Just like strapping fresh steaks to your body and walking through a tiger's cage. I'm not saying that educational measures and other anti-rape campaigns are completely futile, but rape will never be completely eradicated. And as long as it happens, why not offer countermeasures?
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
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    Wow, those comments against it....*shakes head*
    One approach towards helping to prevent rape does not necessarily preclude other approaches.
    In an ideal world, rape wouldn't exist at all. Nor would those drugs used for such purposes. But they do. And this nail polish might just be one more weapon in the arsenal bag against rape. To deny people that protective measure, or to make them feel guilty or shameful for considering that form of protection? Grrrr.
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    i was just thinking about this the other day.

    it made me think about the movement to place more responsibility and blame for rape on the rapists - which is absolutely where it should be. the analogy of people decked out in gold and getting robbed is totally, ridiculously inaccurate. its not the sort of thing you see coming up in court cases as a way to make the victim look bad and get the perpetrator off. in public opinion, at least where i live, somebody with a lot of jewelry is not seen as a person with shitty character who is asking for it like the way a drunk rape victim is. its a really horrible and incorrect comparison.

    things that help prevent rape are good. this nail polish might help prevent a few rapes. but its kind of gimmicky and unlikely to make much of a difference when most rapes don't fall into the roofied-at-a-bar category. so i'm not really excited about it. and i can understand the backlash in a visceral/emotional kind of way...like damn another thing that women are supposed to be responsible for in order to prove that they are completely blameless and innocent any time they get raped. drugged at a party? why weren't you wearing your anti-rape nail polish? you know boys are gonna be boys!

    i'm going to assume that if you saw a woman walking around naked, raping her would be one of the very last things on your mind. because you seem like a civilized man and not a tiger in a cage. i think most dudes are civilized men and not rabid sharks and should be expected to act accordingly. that's why i hate the "fresh steaks" argument. it creates a cultural mindset that men aren't able to control themselves around women. and they are. they have brains and self-control for fucks sake. have a little dignity, you know?

    its true that we can't make rape go away entirely just by telling men not to do it and explaining consent. no matter how well-informed men are and how responsible society holds them for their behavior, theres still gonna be rapists. so measures of prevention are important and its a good thing things like this nail polish exist. the backlash is understandable to me but i disagree with it.

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    Dumbest thing I've ever seen.

    But feminism!

    So fuck any kind of practical solution to give women (and men who choose to wear anti rape drug nail polish) the choice to have control over what they consume.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wom...s-problem.html

    There is a "victim-blaming" culture around this particular crime, and this has led to an over-the-top disinclination to discuss any sort of preventative measures that a potential victim could use. It's absolutely perverse and wrong.

    I understand that if burglary victims were constantly told "well it was your fault for having a nice TV in your living room that people could see from the street - practically an invitation to thieves" or "leaving your window open basically implies that you want people to climb into your house and take your stuff", people would get angered by the implication that a crime committed against them was their own fault.

    But at the same time, you wouldn't tell someone who'd invented a state-of-the-art home security system which allows the house owners to identify burglars before they approach the house that they were "blaming the victim".
    Last edited by InvisibleJim; 08-28-2014 at 03:31 PM.

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    While i think there's potential from idiots to use it during their victim blaming, there's also that same potential of saying, well, why didnt you spray him with mace? Oh you didnt have mace in your purse/pocket? Then you must have been asking for someone to rape you. Why didn't you use your self-protection training? Oh, you didnt take a class? You must be very open to being raped then.

    People who intend to blame the victims will find any way to do so, no matter how stupid their logic.

    Would these women criticizing the nail polish also say that mace that can fit in purses/pockets shouldn't have been invented? Or that there shouldn't be self-protection training classes for women? Hopefully not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    People who intend to blame the victims will find any way to do so, no matter how stupid their logic.
    i think people would be less inclined to blame the victims if there were a cultural shift in the way these things were viewed. right now its pretty socially acceptable in some social circles to victim blame and i believe that has the potential to change. i think the publicity over this nail polish has a larger effect than the probability of it actually helping people.

    i want to be clear that i do think any preventative measure is a positive thing. i just feel like okay here's yet another excuse for people to pretend that feminism is a bad thing, and i want to open up discussion of the other perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    in public opinion, at least where i live, somebody with a lot of jewelry is not seen as a person with shitty character who is asking for it like the way a drunk rape victim is.
    With this example I wanted to show that the principle "opportunity makes thieves" may also apply on other crimes like rape for example. The former jewellery owner would certainly not be called a person with a "shitty character", but I can very well imagine people who say they were asking for being robbed. This is a non-sexual crime, so judgements about sexual morality would be out of place anyway. But the person described would likely be seen as very stupid for this behavior.

    However, I think I know what your point is. I've thought before that this "boys will be boys" attitude is completely wrong. It treats rape as some kind of trivial offence. So while people would agree that the robber in the example is still a criminal (even if he "just" exploited the stupid behavior of the other person), the rape of a drunk woman would be devalued and treated as "misunderstanding" rather than a serious crime. This is, of course, not justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i'm going to assume that if you saw a woman walking around naked, raping her would be one of the very last things on your mind. because you seem like a civilized man and not a tiger in a cage. i think most dudes are civilized men and not rabid sharks and should be expected to act accordingly. that's why i hate the "fresh steaks" argument. it creates a cultural mindset that men aren't able to control themselves around women. and they are. they have brains and self-control for fucks sake. have a little dignity, you know?
    I think this varies greatly. For the most part, I agree. But some people have less self-control than others. That means even if it contradicts the image we have of people as responsible beings, we have to fend them off like animals sometimes. (Think of extreme conditions like after a natural disaster.) I think I have said something similar before, but I believe the line between humans and animals is very thin and a stable society makes it appear much broader than it actually is. It largely boils down to a philosophical argument about free will.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    I think this varies greatly. For the most part, I agree. But some people have less self-control than others. That means even if it contradicts the image we have of people as responsible beings, we have to fend them off like animals sometimes. (Think of extreme conditions like after a natural disaster.) I think I have said something similar before, but I believe the line between humans and animals is very thin and a stable society makes it appear much broader than it actually is. It largely boils down to a philosophical argument about free will.
    I remember in Freakonomics or Superfreakonomics; they refered to a study of 'moral'/'non criminal' behaviour.

    I can't easily find a link to it on google, but, essentially there was an experiment performed in an almost frontier/wild west setting where they showed that in a virgin state, before there is a perception of law and order 15% of people will be moral/law abiding and will act to stop misbehaviour, 75% won't stop a law being broken and 10% would actively break the law.

    Whatever the experiment was they showed that as time advanced, the 75% would gradually see the 15% stopping law breaking if done in sufficient quantity; and as a consequence a crime would acheive a reputation for punishment.

    Then the 10% of law breakers would decrease to 2% and the number of 'stop thats illegal' people would increase.

    The message was that lawful behaviour as has been theorised is socio-economic and that there will always be a hardcore of people who will view any risk/consequence of being caught as 'worth it'. It was also important that when something was happening it was critical for someone to be the 'first person' to intervene which can trigger a mass reaction against criminality and change that critical risk/reward balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Stupid and illegal are two different things. Wearing decorative gold jewelry and walking around a poor area is stupid, but it's not illegal; so if a robbery occurs, the blame still goes to the robber. Of course if a woman walks around naked and gets raped, the blame should still go to the rapist. Society already does enough about taking the responsibility of controlling your impulses and behaving like a gentleman away from men.
    Do you want to point out that being naked in public is illegal (like public nuisance or something like that)? That wasn't intended, but I also think it's not important for the matter.

    I see this like a programmed algorithm: Let's assume the jewellery-guy meets three people along his way. The gold attracts the attention of all of them, but neither of them robs him. That is because one of the following (example) criteria is not met by these people:

    a) an urgent need of money
    b) a conscience which "allows" the robbery
    c) the physical ability to rob another person

    However, he meets a forth guy later and the planets do align this time (meaning all criteria are met) and this man robs him. Cause and effect. Now, you could argue that if this rich man didn't wear his jewellery that demonstratively, the very root of the robbery wouldn't have been present and none of the four men would've been even tempted to steal his belongings.

    Rape can be seen in a very similar way. HOWEVER, this "cause and effect" reasoning might also be applied to situations which are not nearly as "obvious" as the example. These situations may include excuses like "boys will be boys", "she was drunk so she wanted it", ect. in which the rapist actively pursues the crime.

    This can be compared to a burglar who loots homes to get the jewellery instead of the man in the example who acted in the "heat of the moment". We tend to evaluate these situations in a different way and some people may put a deliberately planned rape into the heat of the moment/misunderstanding category even if it's not justified. This makes the crime seem less serious. It's a problem connected to the perception of society.
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    Is this one of those 'YOU'RE JUST TREATING THE SYMPTOMS, NOT THE DISEASE' arguments? The nail polish is a very practical idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    If it can help women be smarter about stopping others engage in illegal activities against them, then great. However, I would still suggest sticking to the adage of 'Never leave your drink unattended at a party'. If you leave or go to the bathroom, and left your drink there, or even if you left it with a friend, I would still suggest getting a new drink when you return.
    this kind of language is everywhere and when its noticeable to you, then you might be sensitive to react. it can end up being displaced wrongly or looking crazy to other people because what you're actually reacting to is much more pervasive than one person's random comment or an anti-rape nail polish. its the 20 comments every day, or whatever. and its like trying to point at the wind.

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    Some humans are just unreasonable just as some humans are rapists just as some humans are patronizing. Only one of these is not ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    this kind of language is everywhere and when its noticeable to you, then you might be sensitive to react. it can end up being displaced wrongly or looking crazy to other people because what you're actually reacting to is much more pervasive than one person's random comment or an anti-rape nail polish. its the 20 comments every day, or whatever. and its like trying to point at the wind.
    William attempt to be rational is just a attempt at being controlling.

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    In a sense, I can understand why this sort of thing would aggravate people who constantly hear that "boys will be boys" and that women are responsible for men's thoughts and actions. With that said, I think that in the attempt to get blame off of the woman, a lot of people/groups swing to the other extreme of "you can't expect a woman to take precautions for her own safety because that's victim blaming". An example I like to give is how I started taking the longer, better-lit road home at night after realizing that I couldn't distinguish who was walking toward me or what they were holding when I cut through the nearby neighborhood between work and my house. Should I be able to walk through there at midnight without the fear of being assaulted or attacked? It'd be nice. Am I going to do it anyway and just hope that all these people I don't know have nothing but benevolent intentions toward me? Oh hell no. A focus on taking responsibility for one's surroundings (within reason) does not preclude a belief that rapists deserve jailtime/are horrible people and that we should be educating people on proper respect and consent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i think people would be less inclined to blame the victims if there were a cultural shift in the way these things were viewed. right now its pretty socially acceptable in some social circles to victim blame and i believe that has the potential to change. i think the publicity over this nail polish has a larger effect than the probability of it actually helping people.

    i want to be clear that i do think any preventative measure is a positive thing. i just feel like okay here's yet another excuse for people to pretend that feminism is a bad thing, and i want to open up discussion of the other perspective.
    *shrugs* Some people are going to bitch about all preventative measures, and others are going to take that and bitch about how feminism sucks because a group within the ideology takes less than rational stances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    Interesting post and analysis, but is there a point to this? So in the example: if a naked woman walking down the street gets raped: so there would essentially be 2 illegal activities, being naked in public and the rape itself, are you saying more blame is to go to the woman? Or simply pointing out that people's thought processes are more likely to look at cause and effect and attribute some blame to her? Personally I still think it would make more sense to hold the rapist responsible, as they committed the action that had worse negative effects: being naked in public can be a bit disturbing or embarrassing depending on the context, but rape of course is much more emotionally traumatizing.
    Sorry, this got much more complicated than necessary. I bolded the part of your post that is correct, I didn't mean to include that the victim also did something illegal (I didn't even think of this) so that should not be part of the example. However, similar to the guy wearing jewellery, some people will probably think the woman is at least co-responsible for the crime.

    Think again of the street robbery vs. the planned burglary (with the same loot). The crime is actually the same, but the people will still view it differently.
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    Tough on William, tough on the causes of William.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    it creates a cultural mindset that men aren't able to control themselves around women. and they are. they have brains and self-control for fucks sake. have a little dignity, you know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    A few days ago I read about the invention of a special nail polish that can detect rape drugs in drinks like a litmus test. Apparently, some people criticize this. What do you think?

    Honestly, I don't understand it. You don't go to the person who invented the kevlar vest and ask them "Do you just want people to subtly avoid being murdered? Shouldn't we rather stop people from shooting each other?". And you would certainly not go to someone who was randomly shot and tell others "That guy had it coming, he didn't wear his kevlar vest!". Besides that, I think this nail polish was not invented to be subtle, but rather practical. As the article stated, you don't usually have a device that detects these drugs with you all the time, so this is a much more handy solution.

    However, I also think that the much-cited "victim blaming" is absolutely not limited to rape. What would you say about someone who wears their golden jewellery (maybe even unconsciously) in the poorest part of the city and gets robbed? Robbery and rape are always crimes, regardless of the behavior of the victim. And yet I think many people believe people are to blame if they deck themselves out with gold and get mugged.

    In a perfect world, nobody should get raped, robbed or murdered. But all these things happen and you can't stop people from doing them. Women should be able to run around naked if they please and still not get raped, but because we don't live in a perfect world, this behavior will very likely increase the chance of getting raped. Just like strapping fresh steaks to your body and walking through a tiger's cage. I'm not saying that educational measures and other anti-rape campaigns are completely futile, but rape will never be completely eradicated. And as long as it happens, why not offer countermeasures?
    Interesting points you bring up.

    I kind of agree with where this is going, there needs to be practical counter-measures in general because the world is not a perfect place and people will take advantage of those they perceive to be weaker and possess value. What I also think is interesting is the social bystander effect, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese. People can be very apathetic and out of tune with the perceived problems of the community they are in. I think it would be very hard to have to endure the effects of being a bystander while something traumatic is happening and feel powerless to these sorts of things. I'm sure everyone feels a bit like this is a variety of situations and people can be catty about who the bigger victim is, but I really think there is something to this perception of a community that strives for higher ideals. And romantically rapists are pretty pathetic, but I've never quite been at ease with conservative attitudes either-- like Mormon Utah is really into pornography and Ted Haggard was actually gay and did meth and the one conservative politician that ran for president was proposing having a mistress to his wife when he attempted to kick Clinton out for a blowjob. It seems like people struggle to balance their passions with others harmoniously. Like its different different places but every place you go always has its vibe when it comes to the game and people socializing. I think when you peel the layers back from something like an ultra-conservative religious compound, something like that seems a little corrupt in some ways as well. No relationship is perfect it always has its development and conclusions. Is a person locked in a relationship fully happy, or are their other opportunities -- its like stockholm syndrome. But rapes are called such because they are very clear situations of non-consensus.

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    Well personally speaking, (and I'm not trying to victim blame or anything) I avoid 'Girls Gone Wild'-ish social gatherings like that and most unconventional social parties to begin with. They are awkward for a good reason, and they are naturally dangerous. I sense the tension in the air and I just avoid it. Now I don't really have to worry about being raped like a woman does but I'm a gay guy so I kinda...half worry about it? (If that makes sense lol)

    Or if I'm going out like that, the rare cases I do, I bring along a strong female/a friend for protection. (I'm good friends with girls who are tough, I feel we understand each other and protect each other sort of thing.) Having a friend is really helpful, because it balances the lust and curiosity you may feel for somebody, a friend can knock some sense into you that the person is no good when your hormones/curiosity might be getting the best of you.

    I realize that I'm probably stunting myself socially in ways, but my self protection is too important. Lots of places that are considered 'liberal and progressive' actually also feel sexual offenderish so it's a fine balance to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonraker View Post
    What I also think is interesting is the social bystander effect, like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese. People can be very apathetic and out of tune with the perceived problems of the community they are in. I think it would be very hard to have to endure the effects of being a bystander while something traumatic is happening and feel powerless to these sorts of things. I'm sure everyone feels a bit like this is a variety of situations and people can be catty about who the bigger victim is, but I really think there is something to this perception of a community that strives for higher ideals.
    I'm sure I would think differently about the whole matter if I was a woman, because the danger would be much more real to me. Besides, I'd may have made some personal experiences with sexual harassment or similar things. Everyone is more or less blind to some of the specific problems other people have, no matter if they are disabled in some way or just have a different gender.

    I'm not so sure whether or not it is hard to be a bystander. Maybe I don't understand what you wanted to say, but the fact that the bystander is not sure if they are involved in a certain issue at all (and thus, do not act) seems rather neutral to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonraker View Post
    And romantically rapists are pretty pathetic, but I've never quite been at ease with conservative attitudes either-- like Mormon Utah is really into pornography and Ted Haggard was actually gay and did meth and the one conservative politician that ran for president was proposing having a mistress to his wife when he attempted to kick Clinton out for a blowjob. It seems like people struggle to balance their passions with others harmoniously. Like its different different places but every place you go always has its vibe when it comes to the game and people socializing. I think when you peel the layers back from something like an ultra-conservative religious compound, something like that seems a little corrupt in some ways as well. No relationship is perfect it always has its development and conclusions. Is a person locked in a relationship fully happy, or are their other opportunities -- its like stockholm syndrome. But rapes are called such because they are very clear situations of non-consensus.
    If people find themselves in a (sexually) restrictive situation or environment, they satisfy their urges in alternative ways and in a secretive manner. Like the priests who are not allowed to marry but then rape little boys instead. The first statement could be seen as an "excuse" for rape and other crimes, but I really see it in value-neutral way. I don't say rape is less abhorrent because of this, it's rather an attempt to reason why people act that way.

    It reminds me of a quote from Franz von Liszt: "The best criminal policy is a good social policy.". Take away the causes and the crimes will decrease. It's the diametrically opposed strategy to the "law and order"-approach, which advocates to simply enforcing laws and toughen the punishments. While it's easy to just tell priests to not rape boys and still don't marry a woman and punish them for the violation of these laws, it might be a much more promising move to allow them to marry.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Messages like this are kind of irresponsible, bc they overstate a supposed problem ("rape culture" wtf?) w/o addressing a more pertinent reality.

    Which is that there are plenty of people—regardless of their cultural rearing—who will absolutely never give a moral shit about respecting the rights/lives/etc., and will do whatever they want because they can. For those sorts of people, practical preventative measures are the only recourse.
    irresponsible, how? will they prevent people from trying to protect themselves?

    if your reaction to "rape culture" is a quick "wtf" brush-off then you aren't paying attention. that's why i'm playing devils advocate in this thread. because most people here are so quick to either go along with easy answers or jump on any excuse to bash feminism and SOMEBODY needs to try to pull the brakes a little on the train of consensus and get people to try to think a little. if you don't understand why that term is being used, then of course you're not going to understand the position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    It reminds me of a quote from Franz von Liszt: "The best criminal policy is a good social policy.". Take away the causes and the crimes will decrease. It's the diametrically opposed strategy to the "law and order"-approach, which advocates to simply enforcing laws and toughen the punishments. While it's easy to just tell priests to not rape boys and still don't marry a woman and punish them for the violation of these laws, it might be a much more promising move to allow them to marry.
    how would you apply this philosophy to rape?

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    i've already provided lots of examples elsewhere on the forum of why rape culture in the united states is a thing. if you make a choice to be oblivious because its emotionally placating to you, then nothing i can say will change your mind.

    i'm curious how you distinguish feminists who DON'T "cry about phantom social issues" since you seem to think most feminist issues are "phantoms" but i'd rather not continue this conversation when you're going to throw out terms like "delusional" to discredit me.

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    Deleted for long-term privacy ...
    Last edited by golden; 09-05-2014 at 12:14 AM.

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    not sure what mfckr meant, but often in my experience when people deny that rape culture "exists", they're not denying that rape is a problem that needs to be addressed, or that it's traumatic and difficult for the people involved and it needs to be fixed. they're just acknowledging that the phrase implies that rape is highly widespread occurrence and has grown into this ubiquitous monolithic elephant in the room that everybody has decided to ignore. that's not true. rape as a cultural phenomenon is an anomaly, not the norm, and it's highly unfortunate that it hasn't entirely been eradicated, but calling it "rape culture" is misrepresenting the scale of and obfuscating (ha ha) what the actual problem is and how to fix it.

    /2c

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pa3s View Post
    I'm sure I would think differently about the whole matter if I was a woman, because the danger would be much more real to me. Besides, I'd may have made some personal experiences with sexual harassment or similar things. Everyone is more or less blind to some of the specific problems other people have, no matter if they are disabled in some way or just have a different gender.

    I'm not so sure whether or not it is hard to be a bystander. Maybe I don't understand what you wanted to say, but the fact that the bystander is not sure if they are involved in a certain issue at all (and thus, do not act) seems rather neutral to me.
    I guess what I'm referring to is that while people are typically very absorbed in their lives and if faced with a dramatic situation may simply ignore it because it disturbs their peace that their still is some wear on them from being bystanders. Like when people watch bad stuff that happens on the news they always have opinions and ideas on how to fix the situation and imagine themselves to be one way, but when faced with an actual situation they may respond differently. Like in the case where Kitty Genovese was shouting for help and people ignored her; many people on the news didn't understand why people didn't help and felt like something should have been done but the people in the actual situation responded differently.

    I think this sort of thing is universal. The difference between being a bystander or observer in social situations and being a participant. I think a lot of people like to complain who is the bigger victim from what they've seen. Like certain men may have colder stances towards rape because they feel they are bigger victims or have had to endure worse, or possibly other women may be short on sympathy towards other women. And there are all sorts of gradients, like maybe instead of rape we are talking about relationships that ended with someone getting cheated on or felt abused in some way... maybe not sooo dramatic as a rape. People like to measure up who is the bigger victim because then they can claim some form of payment that is due to their suffering, but ultimately this doesn't ever help improve the current situation.

    I'm not saying this either to justify rape (obviously) I'm saying its a social thing to try to compare trials and tribulations and try to compete on who is the bigger victim, which is why you likely see people occasionally adopt these viewpoints of "blame the victim" because they think people who get raped deserved it for living sordid lifestyles and believe they are the bigger victims for not being rewarded for their pious adherence to a proper moral life. Things like in some islamic cultures the way they treat women for being "whores" or whatever versus this idea of having 74 virgins in the afterlife. It's really just all the same thing of people wanting their just payment and reconciling these based of the grievances they've had to endure.

    So I think there is this major effect of people being kind of whiny observers about stuff these days. Further their is this entire idea of actually participating and dealing with problems instead of just being on the sidelines getting hurt and then claiming you are owed something. This is not meant to imply that women who get raped are greedy and looking for reparations but rather that as society approaches the issue of rape that is isn't about who is the bigger victim but what can be done to address the reality of the issue. Consoling and proper treatment for the victim and measures to prevent similar situations from occurring to future victims.



    If people find themselves in a (sexually) restrictive situation or environment, they satisfy their urges in alternative ways and in a secretive manner. Like the priests who are not allowed to marry but then rape little boys instead. The first statement could be seen as an "excuse" for rape and other crimes, but I really see it in value-neutral way. I don't say rape is less abhorrent because of this, it's rather an attempt to reason why people act that way.

    It reminds me of a quote from Franz von Liszt: "The best criminal policy is a good social policy.". Take away the causes and the crimes will decrease. It's the diametrically opposed strategy to the "law and order"-approach, which advocates to simply enforcing laws and toughen the punishments. While it's easy to just tell priests to not rape boys and still don't marry a woman and punish them for the violation of these laws, it might be a much more promising move to allow them to marry.
    Yes this is what I'm talking when I say it seems people have a hard time balancing their passions with other harmoniously. Like a priest that gets their sexual urges out on a little boy -- this may be a case that they are actually naturally pedophiles or that they developed this condition through restricted sex lives. If its the second case then it seems very obvious that possibly they would cause less harm to the overall social harmony if they were to simply pursue these sexual urges in a way that doesn't create tension in society or possibly look for another occupation. Its also hard to imagine in the case a priest is a natural pedophile why they would be a priest as their entire piousness is centered around this ideal of being chaste and having sex with little boys isn't chaste, its actually probably a lot worse than breaking the entire chaste thing with a women. So that points to a lack of harmony as well in balancing their passions.

    This is what I think about a lot of conservative ideals is that they are these safe "boxes" constructed of social traditions that try to avoid taboos but always a little corruption sinks into these boxes because people try to fit their own desires into these boxes to be accepted by society and conform and ultimately alleviate anxiety that this individual has with their relation to society. While in some cases understanding how one actually is and feels and then attempting to reconcile that with the actual reality around them may be more appropriate and expedient in most cases.

    Like I would think the noble and socially aware thing to do if someone realized they were a pedophile would be to not try to pretend not to be but instead to seek out some kind of consoling from an adult mental health professional or therapist who would help them deal with their feelings in a way that would not end in molestation of children and therefore trauma for the community. But as fucked up as it sounds I tend to think rapists and pedophiles probably realize their desires are out of line with society and get a slight rush out of getting away with things, like a thief that has a compulsion to steal.

    There are really several facets to this issue. Like law and order is important but people will always try to get away with things and push the boundaries and people aren't ultimately robots programming to adhere to laws and social norms, they are living passionate beings that will create new things and engage in stuff they are interesting in. Therefore law is practical matter of addressing grievances that arise between parties to provide for social harmony. And in the line of Sun Tzu philosophy I would think a dispute between parties that doesn't involve fighting or loses is preferable to one that is more war-like. In other words the direction towards a more harmonious social situation is one in which law's role decreases and people are freer and more naturally innocent and harmonious versus one in which people are forced into a particular way. Obviously with the specific case of rape this would imply people able to engage in romantic and sex lives in a freer and more harmonious way versus being forced into social norms. That it is more ideal for people to naturally discover these harmonies versus having them be like legal binding agreements that don't break rules or having to get some outside agency endorse things.
    Last edited by male; 09-04-2014 at 02:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Okay. Please tell do us how you've been victimized today by the pervasively nefarious USA rape culture.

    I'm also not saying rape shouldn't be condemned—it obviously should be bc of how it affects people. I think it's more that what you're doing doesn't seem to me a very constructive way of solving these problems.
    She doesn't have to have been raped in order to have been personally affected by rape culture, because it could happen to her or anyone, and it's much, much more likely to happen to a woman and she knows that and she has probably known if for a long time. As a woman you're immersed in the vulnerable side of that culture. I think that feeds into self-concept. And action. It lets you know your place in society.

    At least she gives a shit. Thank you, @lungs.

    And I am pretty sure there are plenty of studies and stats to ground current feminism in reality, I know I have read some alarming info in the last few years.

    And I don't think patriarchy is so awesome for all men, btw. And to keep it in the personal, because I think personal statements do have power sometimes, I have a son too, as you know, and I don't want him to be hemmed in his whole life by ideas of what men are supposed to be like, or to become insensitive not just to others but to himself (as those things often intertwine), nor do I want to see him used as cannon fodder should there be a draft. I don't want him to lose out in education because so much teaching favors girls' temperaments and because he'll be under pressure later to earn money earlier than a woman might.

    And an aside is that I figure teaching methods favor girls because for so long almost all teachers were women, and that was virtually the ONLY work they were allowed to do. It became women's work, like being a secretary later did. So you can see right there how these things affect both men and women.

    And I can apply those sentiments to men more broadly. But not to the degree that it means sexism and its concrete effects are not a problem that needs addressing and that perhaps could help men as well.

    In the next few weeks, I suppose I might use some scraps of free time to find studies that illustrate the problems discussed here, and I doubt it will be difficult.
    Last edited by golden; 09-04-2014 at 06:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    It's the culture of victim-blame/ridicule that seems alien to me. Nobody I know seems to think that way. I know people who have been victims, and nobody responded that way—quite the opposite. But I think I grew up in a different era, too.
    I seriously doubt things have changed that much in the space between when I was born and you were. It's not like I'm a fucking dinosaur. You seem to have missed my point above that in many cases of rape women don't SAY anything because they know that in a lot of instances they will be blamed. Like if they had ever flirted with the guy. If they had been his girlfriend. If they were at a party and drank. Or whatever. And there are studies and statistics on unreported rape, and I'm quite sure you know that.

    I know of a woman in my past circles [... DELETED FOR PRIVACY ...] She did not report it to anyone. I heard about it but I don't think most people she knew did. One example. Just one. It happened two or three years ago and she is your age. So much didn't change in a decade.
    Last edited by golden; 09-05-2014 at 12:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Okay. Please tell do us how you've been victimized today by the pervasively nefarious USA rape culture.
    do i have to tell you personal stories of sexual victimization ive gone through or witnessed for you to take me seriously? you've already demonstrated that you will find a way to dismiss it either because it was before your era, it was some exception to the rule, it happened in a backwater area, etc. etc. otoh everybody i know who has been sexually assaulted (including myself) has either been accused of lying or had their boyfriend break up with them because of it or had their experience minimized in some way. i live in the same world golden does, and so do you. i live every day with the knowledge that if i get sexually assaulted i will be in a position of either keeping it quiet or having to justify why i didn't deserve it.

    I'm also not saying rape shouldn't be condemned—it obviously should be bc of how it affects people. I think it's more that what you're doing doesn't seem to me a very constructive way of solving these problems.
    all i'm doing is talking to people on the internet. obviously that's not constructive, especially since i don't seem to be getting through to anyone. but maybe you're talking about something else? i volunteered at a womens shelter for awhile. but that doesn't get to the problem at its root, either. any suggestions?

    Emotional placation? All I'm saying is to be reasonable and actually make demonstrable claims.
    in 31 states rapists can sue for custody and visitation rights to the child.
    women who press charges against their rapists are asked how many sexual partners theyve had and what they were wearing.
    studies show that most rapists never go to jail, but somehow false accusations are often depicted as a more serious issue.
    little to nothing is done about rape in prisons and culturally the phenomenon is seen as a joke.
    senators have debated what consitutes a "legitimate" rape.
    rapists are often coddled in the media and sheltered by their communities. see steubenville for a blatant example.

    That's pretty easy. 1st-wave feminism was legit—because it actually pointed out objectively demonstrable (←important keyword) gender inequalities present in the legal system and other societal institutions. 2nd-wave feminism got wonky though with demagoguing unprovable claims. And then of course there's now 3rd-wave, comprising the cisgender trans-negro lesbian SJW shit one sees on tumblr.
    so nobody who thinks that sexism is a current issue is legit?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post

    I dunno what backwater social circles you might've grown up in, but I've never witnessed anyone blame women for rape. Nor have I seen anyone dare suggest it's natural for men to be sexually predatory. Usually people suggest that rapists should be castrated and this sort of thing.
    Dude, there are nasty comments all over the Internet every time there's some story about a woman being raped, especially if anyone dares tell a story that doesn't involve being attacked in an alleyway by a man of color and going immediately to the police and/or the hospital and proving violence was involved. Those idiot asshole commentators live in the real world too, in abundance. A lot of them are PRIVILEGED, take a look at frat boy sons of the upper middle class and think about it. Really.

    The reason in so many instances you'll see groups trying to raise awareness around some issue of others' suffering is that people are un-a-fucking-ware because they haven't witnessed the problem firsthand or even heard much about it. But in your case, you are being told from the mouths of not terribly stupid women that there is a problem in this very society all around you, and you are choosing to remain in a state of ignorance and resorting to slanted statements implying that we are from uneducated hick-land, and thus members and emblems of some backward, abnormal, exceptional subculture, unlike yourself. Nice.

    I know you like to argue, you're good at it, but I think you're actually a thoughtful person. Ime this is not how you comport yourself one on one, and that's why people sometimes get the impression that you're not so very kind.

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    It's good that the issue is being less objective though, because people just care about things more than their paycheck and earning less than people. Sure stuff like that can be more objectively measured as "wrong" but it's also more boring.

    I thought some people on both sides of the issue were making a big too deal about objective things myself. It felt so dry. Plus it kinda fed into the nasty stereotype that all women care about is money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    That's obviously fucked up and should be changed.


    you say "obviously," though, and that's the problem -- its NOT obvious to the status quo. otherwise it would have been changed already.

    that's why these issues are worth discussing. instead of being mocked or saying "i don't see it, so it doesn't exist."

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Al-through I don't think the image you posted is bad, it's in my opinion missing key issues and do not deal with present day pragmatics.

    I think it's important to differentiate the tools of today from the tools of the past.

    Most of the tools of the past were tools which limited female-freedom or constraint female agency with the pretense of protecting them. Often it was just a ownership mechanic akin to protecting a prized piece of property.

    Modern tools attempt to place the agency of such protection in the hands of women, and grant them sovereignty over their body.

    I will start by criticizing the points of solution in the picture

    1. Addressing those at risk of committing sexual assault - What sort of human rights violations will this involve? People are punished for crimes they've committed not for what they haven't committed.
    2. Address the culture that condones & teaches predatory sexual behavior - Sure, but this is a over 50 year time line idea
    3. Teach sexual consent and respect for women's bodies from a young age - Sure, but this is a generational issue
    4. Address the sexist myth that men are naturally predatory and women are responsible for stopping them

    #4 is the one that requires the most thought. Humans are predators, this is just fact, and humans are the apex predators of the world. However responsibility is a problem, the idea of victim responsibility should not exist in matters of sexual assault and crimes of such nature. I'm not sure if the "sexist myth" exist or is meaningful to the idea of "women(victims) are responsible for stopping them". The idea "women(victims) are responsible for stopping them" should be eliminated entirely from the legal system as well as how jury's, judges and prosecutors enact trials. Perhaps guidance needs to be given to jury before they consider the verdict and they are told that in no uncertain terms.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...rosecutor.html

    See people agree with me on this.

    What's missing in the picture is a lot of important pragmatics(in no specific order)

    1. How to make the general environment better for individuals to come forward.
    2. What tools exist to acquire conclusive evidence and ensure accurate conviction, unfortunately, evidence gathering is quite difficult to do in these crimes.
    3. How to overcome unconscious bias in criminal proceeding and ascertain a accurate verdict (This address 2/3 within a court setting and guides jurors/judges/individuals from hidden bias)
    4. How to prevent sexual assault in the least effort possible by individuals

    The nail polish tool is #4, and it seems to be quite a easy to use tool. And does not intrude on the agency of the female, in many ways it's a very clever tool. The statistic about only 2.4% of rapes involving rape drug is a bit misleading.

    How much of rape is actually unpreventable, how much of that 73% is actually unpreventable? 2.4% is still a very significant number and it could be a fairly large portion of preventable rapes, I'm not certain of the statistics but it's more than 2.4% of preventable rapes.

    I've left a lot out of the discussion here due to my lack of ability, but this a extremely challenging issue and not something that can be solved thru polemics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Idk if it can be called the 'status quo' though. It often takes awhile for laws to catch up with prevailing cultural norms. Many of the state legislators may even be unaware that laws like that exist in their statutes. Or they may not be actively enforced—e.g. my state still has an anti-sodomy law on the books, but it's never used AFAIK.

    They're definitely worth discussing, I just have qualms about the mode in which they're typically discussed. Because when open-ended assertions about 'privilege' or 'rape culture' get thrown around, humans can and do start imagineering these issues into omnipresent societal crises (which is why I used the descriptor 'phantoms' earlier), projecting these into everyone and everything. This invariably devolves any discussion about it away from what's real/concrete, towards a dogmatic conceptual menace of the mind that can never be satisfactorily resolved.
    the concrete issues, including the ones i mentioned, have a cumulative effect - they are either representative of the views of the status quo or they contribute to it. this effect is generally referred to as "rape culture." sure, its somewhat nebulous. that doesn't make it imaginary. its as real as any other set of beliefs and values that is held by a large portion of the population. such as referring to a geographical area as "backwards."

    sometimes i say what i want to say without converting my language to be more palatable to people who would disagree with me. other times i pander to people, like explaining to men how feminism is beneficial to them specifically. but its tiring and annoying. it feels like cutting a sandwich into little star shapes to get a child to eat it even though its still the same fucking sandwich. also i think theres a time and a place for being perfectly logical and reasonable, and a time and a place for marketing your views like a salesman, and a time and a place for raging and being emotional. to a completely objective observer, anger and indignation would be examined and seen in their proper contexts and not just viewed as an excuse to completely write off somebodys opinions. no change would ever happen if everybody just sucked up to popular opinion and acted like well-behaved citizens all the time.

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    Feminist Logic - n men have (x)% rapist in them resulting in n*(x) = number of male rapists

    (x) exists, thus rape culture exists, rape is a culture.

    Individualist Logic - n men, (x)% Rapist/Criminal, (1-x)% Not Rapist, thus number of rapists = n*(x)

    Where (1-x) much greater than (x), not cultural.

    Both cases can be true in different places.

    I'm neither American or Canadian and fortunately I don't know anyone who has ever been raped therefore must be a Native American cultural contamination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    how would you apply this philosophy to rape?
    That's relatively easy, the authorities should make alternatives possible. Legalising prostitution might relieve some of the pressure. However, I do know that this effect is questioned by some sources, so this only serves as an example. They argue that not all rapists are just after the sex, but rather the situation of rape. They'd enjoy the "game", the power they have over a helpless human being. Normal sex with a prostitute could not substitute this.

    On the other side, these are exactly the people Ashton and me were talking about. People who would never care about the wellbeing of others – psychopaths. No anti-rape campaign would ever make them change their attitude. I'm still not saying these campaigns are completely useless, but they will never exterminate rape. These x% of the population are those "animals" you have to fend off with mace and other precautions.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

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