LSEs ESTjs enneagram 9s - do they exist?

[aisa]

LSEs ESTjs enneagram 9s - do they exist? Please discuss

So far I've heard of Arnold Schwarzenegger as of possible example of LSE 9w8 and Sylvester Stallone as an example of either LSE 9w1 or 6.

Personally I am most interested in some more examples of LSEs 9w8, but I'd love to read any opinions on this subject, too.

[aisa]

@William do any examples come to your mind when you think of this combo? Those don't have to be a result of a wider consensus. I'm asking about personal opinions.

[darya]

@aisa I don't personally know any LSE e9, but I know some LSE-Si's who could be at first sight mistaken for e9's, but are in fact sp 3's. So I think that is a mistake that can sometimes occur.

[Galen]

I've seen Rick Perry typed as both Si-LSE and 9w8 if that's any consolation.
On second glance he looks rather Social-3ey, nvm.

While we're at it can we bring up the possibility of SLI 8s?

[Beautiful sky]

Idk this is something that I don't know about LSE

[chemical]

I'm sure they can exist. Why not? Not that I don't think some types look weird together, but honestly why is this combination hard to imagine? Some 9's have a tendency to lose themselves and/or become excessively distracted from themselves, others just immerse themselves in a daydreamy world, etc. The former at least is easy to imagine in ESTj with Fi-seeking. Also, if you want to go there, enneagram 1 doesn't sound like it's unlikely to sit in delta, so 9w1 doesn't really sound like a bad bet for some LSE. (Not that the enneagram type MUST belong in a certain quadra, just that you can see common instances of someone fitting in those categories.)

[aisa]

an LSE e9 being sort of a 'gentle workaholic', someone who's busy working a lot, doesn't complain, somewhat stoic, just goes about their business.

That's a good concise description of what I was thinking too (but as you'll see below, I'm not that concise in writing )

I'm wondering what would be the differences between a SLI 9w8 and an LSE 9w8.
Would the SLI just be more chill and want everyone to go about their business without disturbing him while he'd aim at the daily comforts to fill his life while the LSE would be more chill than the classical descriptions but while enjoying the comforts at the same time being still more active and business oriented than the SLI? And then the PoLRs, SLI still being Fe PoLR and being more closed off than the LSE, but being more future-oriented than the LSE who'd have trouble saying what their "5-year plan" is or sth?

And then going by intertype relations - interaction of an EII with an SLI e9 while devoid of some of the tensions that might arise with a more "firm" etype SLI, would be quite "silent" in the long run with two people not extraverting and without a common interest the convo might die off and depending on the situation there would be either this internal feeling of "the silence is too long, I should probably say sth to break it, but what?" or "ok, so we'll just quietly go about our business and that's ok". While the LSE e9 would still be an extravert, thus would "extravert" and have more of a need for interaction?

Comparing this to interacting with an SLI 1w2 and an LSE 1w2, from EII intertype perspective both those types would be more "rough" than the e9s, but it'd be easier to communicate with an LSE and the convos with the SLI would be more prone to misunderstandings due to less shared dichotomies...?
Also in general an LSE of the sam etype would be more inclined to initiate a convo than an SLI of the same etype?

Speculating here.

I have quite a few SLIs and LSEs in my life currently (family, friends, students - teaching one-on-one) and I'm trying to match the theory to its real life application

Also, would the LSE e9 generally correspond most with the Harmonizing and/or Creative subtypes in DCNH subtype system?


...?

[aisa]

@aisa I don't personally know any LSE e9, but I know some LSE-Si's who could be at first sight mistaken for e9's, but are in fact sp 3's. So I think that is a mistake that can sometimes occur.

hmm yeah I guess at first sight that'd be possible... although what I am trying to find out is actually the core type of some LSEs being e9s...

I mean the desintegration isn't sth that lasts long enough for a person to be more of their desintegration point than their core type, I suppose? If it does - please someone let me know, then maybe the LSE 9s are in fact long-term depressed/suppressed for any life-circumstance long-term reason LSE 3s...
but I do find this hard to conceive since the 3s are so darn driven regardless their socionics type or mood that their nature shines through (at least the ones I've met so far)

...?

[suedehead]

I don't have a problem with it. There's this idea of LSE's being pushy and always on the go, but that's not my perception at all a lot of the time. I've always seen my dad as lazy and leasurely when he doesn't actually have to do anything. He's like a stiff/jerky relaxed person if that makes sense at all. It's just when he does something, he does it at full-capacity. So I can see an LSE e9 being like him, but less anxious.

[aisa]

I've seen Rick Perry typed as both Si-LSE and 9w8 if that's any consolation.
On second glance he looks rather Social-3ey, nvm.

yeah, I'm not familiar with US politicians, so going by photos all I can say is that he looks LSE and does look social and in some (especially younger) photos he has this a bit unfocused gaze of an e9, but then again 3s do have a connection to e9 so...pfft inconclusive I guess.

while we're at it though - how permament do you think the "integration"/"desintegration" stages can be...? could smn actually integrate from 9 to 3 and resemble a 3 more permanently in their life onwards or would it be a case of a depressed 3 integrating back into core...? speculations, speculations...

While we're at it can we bring up the possibility of SLI 8s?

umm... I've no idea, but if anyone has an opinion - feel free to share it here.

all I can say is that I've read somewhere before that ESIs can't be e8s - while my dad is ESI-Se 8w7 and no shred of doubt about it (he was actually interested enough in typology that he went through some tests, read through various functions descriptions, etc. etc.) And smn would have to meet him to know that he is not an e6 (as sometimes gets suggested for introverts thinking they're e8s).
so that'd be one myth busted... and about SLIs - I really don't know maybe those heavy on Te...?
what is your opinion on SLI 8s Galen?

[aisa]

I'm sure they can exist. Why not? Not that I don't think some types look weird together, but honestly why is this combination hard to imagine? Some 9's have a tendency to lose themselves and/or become excessively distracted from themselves, others just immerse themselves in a daydreamy world, etc. The former at least is easy to imagine in ESTj with Fi-seeking. Also, if you want to go there, enneagram 1 doesn't sound like it's unlikely to sit in delta, so 9w1 doesn't really sound like a bad bet for some LSE. (Not that the enneagram type MUST belong in a certain quadra, just that you can see common instances of someone fitting in those categories.)

yeah it (especially the bolded part) makes sense to me

nah, I don't have anything against e1 and delta, I thought it's actually quite a common etype for LSEs and SLIs, I've heard of some EIIs also...

[aisa]

I don't have a problem with it. There's this idea of LSE's being pushy and always on the go, but that's not my perception at all a lot of the time. I've always seen my dad as lazy and leasurely when he doesn't actually have to do anything. He's like a stiff/jerky relaxed person if that makes sense at all. It's just when he does something, he does it at full-capacity. So I can see an LSE e9 being like him, but less anxious.

interesting and makes sense to me, and ties in with other answers in this thread

comparing SLIs e9 to LSEs e9 would your bet be that the SLIs e9s would be more chilled in this "ah well, do it with quality good enough to get over it and chill - and then actually chilling out" while LSEs e9s "do it how it's supposed to be done and then get over it and chill - but if sth is unfinished having more trouble relaxing, more difficult to go into "off" mode from work" - sort of thing?

[suedehead]

Yup.

[Galen]

what is your opinion on SLI 8s Galen?

My opinion is that they don't exist but I reeeeeaaaaaally wish they did

[chemical]

My opinion is that they don't exist

I've never thought about SLI 8s, but why do you say they don't exist?

[Galen]

I've never thought about SLI 8s, but why do you say they don't exist?

1) I've never met or known of one
2) E8 seems kind of at odds with an IXXx orientation, as E8 energy is by nature externally directed.

[chemical]

Fair enough. Your conception of E8 is extraverted basically.

[Galen]

Fair enough. Your conception of E8 is extraverted basically.

Pretty much. I haven't seen any real-world typings of IXXx 8s that I can agree with.

[Persephone]

1) I've never met or known of one
2) E8 seems kind of at odds with an IXXx orientation, as E8 energy is by nature externally directed.

Which enneas are introverted/extraverted?
Thanks

[chemical]

I haven't seen any real-world typings of IXXx 8s that I can agree with.

That's expected; it essentially comes down to whether your very concept of 8 is extraverted or not. If it is, then I'd not expect you can agree. I don't abide by your rule strictly, but I don't think it's a horrible idea necessarily. I could see why you think it.

Persephone - my answer:

1 can be either way. 2 is typically extraverted, 3 somewhat variable but sometimes presented as extravert blatantly catering to an audience, 4 is introverted, 5 is introverted, 6 is either way, 7 slightly higher chance of extraversion, 8 is often extraverted, 9 is either way (because on the one end they're withdrawn, on the other, they "lose touch with themselves").

[chemical]

Also please note all of this is tentative - I don't think one should really limit the types by introversion/extraversion. It's more like, often the mentality of the type is easy to see in a certain form. It does not imply it cannot exist in another form. Just that we find it harder to imagine, because of our own limitations possibly.

[Galen]

Persephone - my answer:

1 can be either way. 2 is typically extraverted, 3 somewhat variable but sometimes presented as extravert blatantly catering to an audience, 4 is introverted, 5 is introverted, 6 is either way, 7 slightly higher chance of extraversion, 8 is often extraverted, 9 is either way (because on the one end they're withdrawn, on the other, they "lose touch with themselves").

Agreed with p. much all of this, except I would call 7s exclusively extroverted.

[chemical]

except I would call 7s exclusively extroverted.

The reason I see 7 as more possibly introverted than 8 is that the lust-passion differs from the gluttony-passion to me subtly. The idea of gluttony is not quite as blatantly about force, must gobble gobble for intensity in the sense that it's more about an implicit avoidance of pain, being influenced by the 6 wing of fear, hence why you aren't fully committed to that which you pursue stimulation in. Sometimes I think, rather than pursuing pleasure and stimulation there may be more influence from the 6 wing, whereby there's a tendency to compensate for lack of being in touch with Holy Plan not by over-pursuit of outside goodies, but rather more inwardness in the calculated avoidance of pain.

I leaned extraverted mainly because the more you go down this latter road, the more you may enter type 6 realm and actually start being more ruled by fear than by gluttony. The fear can at most be an implicit thing as a wing to the gluttonous. I do think the over-planning mentality of 7 though can lend itself to inwardness, because a plan and a need to have a plan that avoids any sense of denial and a rut down the road can definitely have as much to do with the subject as the object - the plan is your path, stemming from your apparent needs that could be denied, hence an ever-calculating mentality. It's just that the more in touch you get with this subject, the more you may realize you are actually acting of fear (since the enneatypes are how you experience the exact same reality differently), as you get more in touch with the being who could be in a rut than on that which makes it seem one cannot meet you (the stimulants, objective situations sought out by 7). Perhaps a likely scenario is many semi-inward 7 are going to border ambiversion, with only a rare few obvious mega-introverts. I'd think some of these introverted 7s could be evil masterminds though, and may have extreme tendencies to narcissism that prevents them, even when going inward, from touching their fearful points. After all, a psychological movement inward does not mean one understands the inside in a complete way better than the extravert, merely that one tends to move towards the inside.

[chemical]

In a weird way, often the 5-6-7 triad might manifest as a general aversion to foreign entities, aka "objects," yet the responses and experiences are different. 7's fear is the most veiled and thus it may show a moving towards objective situations, without really meeting them - this could easily look like some kind of Ne-dominant, where their aversion to the objective stimulus is not exactly evident due to their great interest in it, but given the interest is strictly intuitive, there's a veiled avoidance of their subjective reactions to its manifest existence (Si) and instead a gluttonous attitude of expectancy of all the various things that can be uncovered, as opposed to simply devouring the stimulus and interacting directly with it. 5 might go so completely inward as to avoid the object entirely and stagnate in an almost exclusively cerebral identity. 6 may manifest a profound indecision, or, the more palpably reactive they are to their fear in a "proactive" way, the more calculating they may grow about what they place their faith in, knowing in their experience of consciousness, they cannot avoid placing it in something or the other.

[aisa]

ok, so reading through the above it seems that most of you guys think LSEs 9s do exist or at least are a conceivable combination...
gives me sth to think about thanks!


oh, and how about integration/desintegration in general - how permanent/tmporary do you personally experience it/observe in others?

[chemical]

I think integration/disintegration is better viewed philosophically than practically, but that is perhaps just me. In a sense, I think your type always stays with you, and it's hard to move into another's really in a meaningful sense. However, what happens is that the integration/disintegration types are ones which somehow naturally coexist with the mentality of your type on a fundamental level, even if on a more detailed level there are differences.

The easy example of this could be something like Type 9 Type 3. There is a sense in which the 3-6-9 are "out of touch with themselves," but in my view this isn't due to lack of introspection. Sometimes they may be the most introspective. I think what really happens is their egos get totally ruled by the triad they're in's dominant fixation. In 9's case it is instinctual satisfaction, in 6 it is fear/anticipation, 3 it is lack of image/inability to feel their worth (hence why 3 is in the feeling triad - this isn't about feeling in general, but specifically in connection with identity-issues I think). I can almost say these types de-emphasize the role of the ego in making a decision on how to orient themselves, and just almost totally do so in the spirit of the dominant fixation as if there's "no real other choice."

So it's easy to see how these types can then bleed into each other. The type 9 has an embedded sense of type 3 in them, an identity-seeking side. One which seeks to build an identity, rather than operate exclusively from the standpoint of instinctual satisfaction. Yet, type 3's identity seeking is so ruled by shame, and inability to feel one's worth that at times they may even become an anti-feeling type. Like a Te-dominant, which lets external factors determine their accomplishments' direction, with minimal attention to what their subjective feelings say. So there is a natural line connecting these kinds of mentalities.

It's unclear if you should view this line as a "goal" though. Like, becoming more 3-like. Perhaps it's better viewed as something to acknowledge in yourself, to see already present in yourself. As if, when you see all the 3 of the types (main including lines) in yourself, you move towards greater wholeness.

The reason you might not want to see them as "goals" to avoid or achieve (like 9 may "avoid" 6 and wish to "get to" 3, but I say this is perhaps not the best way) is that they're already there. The flaws of those types are already present in you. It's more like your operation exclusively from one type obscures to you the nature of what you're doing, and acknowledging the others may get you to see your more unconscious influences, so as to transcend your type more than you already do.

[MensSuperMateriam]

@aisa, you already know why I think this combination is not a goot match from Narc's thread, so I am not going to post it again. But in case you're curious, here you have a table for enneagram/sociotype correlations.

I'm not sure who is the author, some user of this forum. I think it's quite accurate:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...rive_web#gid=0

[MensSuperMateriam]

@aisa - I think Christopher Reeve may be another example of an LSE e9:

Christopher Reeve is EII, not LSE. Fi oozed everywhere, among other things. Or that's my opinion, at least.

[aisa]

@aisa, you already know why I think this combination is not a goot match from Narc's thread, so I am not going to post it again. But in case you're curious, here you have a table for enneagram/sociotype correlations.

I'm not sure who is the author, some user of this forum. I think it's quite accurate:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...rive_web#gid=0

yeah I know your opinion on this
personally I am not certain, but haven't yet found enough evidence against existence of LSE 9w8s to dismiss it

thanks for the link!
hmm... regarding the table, I think it does seem mostly correct, although I find it highly unlikely for e1 to be a common type among EIIs... I believe it's possible (I even considered it personally for a while as you know), but I doubt it's as common as 9 and 6 and more common than 4.

[darya]

hmm... regarding the table, I think it does seem mostly correct, although I find it highly unlikely for e1 to be a common type among EIIs... I believe it's possible (I even considered it personally for a while as you know), but I doubt it's as common as 9 and 6 and more common than 4.

From the people I know and am sure are EII's, two of them are 1w9 (both with a strong wing) and the third is 9w1

[aisa]

From the people I know and am sure are EII's, two of them are 1w9 (both with a strong wing) and the third is 9w1

that's interesting how would you say the "strong wing" manifests - what makes those e1w9 EIIs different from the 9w1 one? so basically how do you know which one is their "core" when you mention a strong wing? is it their self-typing, did they take some tests or is it your typing of them, because you just can see how the traits manifest in them and you know them well enough to type them? (sorry, I know it's a lot of questions... )

[darya]

that's interesting how would you say the "strong wing" manifests - what makes those e1w9 EIIs different from the 9w1 one? so basically how do you know which one is their "core" when you mention a strong wing? is it their self-typing, did they take some tests or is it your typing of them, because you just can see how the traits manifest in them and you know them well enough to type them? (sorry, I know it's a lot of questions... )

I know all three very well, yes. The one who is 9w1 is a very obvious e9 (mergy, agreeable, go with the flow, conflict avoidant, humble, kind, he couldn't hurt a fly), so that is my personal evaluation of him (he seems way more 9w1 than 9w8, but again, my opinion). He did score EII on a test though.

I have tested the other EII for both socionics and enneagram, and she got EII and the first time she scored exactly the same on 1w9 and 9w1. The test actually couldn't decide - it only said she's one of those

So we went through descriptions and fixations bla bla, as she's also very interested in typology and we agreed that her core type is e1. She is quite a bit more rigid, uptight and rightious than the 9w1 EII. She can be moralistic at times, but not to the extend it would be annoying, cause I'm very allergic to e1 agressive moralism myself Also very principled and perfectionistic. There's just an obvious difference between these two EII's, but at the same time they are also similar.

And the third EII s very similar to the second girl,so I decided she's 1w9 as well (slightly Amish, House on the Prairie vibe ). What is also interesting is that they look very much alike. Both very pale, long unstyled brown hair, no makeup, drab conservative clothes, but at the same time very pretty and elven looking. If only they wouldn't try to dissapear into the background so hard

[aisa]

@darya lol those EIIs need an energetic SLI female to take them shopping and tell them "whaaat?! Not this one, you'll look like a grandma. Try this one, you'll look better. You need sth with a bit of a kick. Don't frown! When are you gonna dress nice? When you're 80?! Go on. Try it on."
(Happens every time I go shopping with a SLI. It actually does me good )
My wardrobe is divided into two sections - hippie airy fairy girlie type (when I do shopping alone, or even better - online, cause I'm not a big fan of shopping...) and Lara Croft style (when I do shopping with SLI or with SLI's advice in mind)
Just saying....

[Minde]

I'm pretty sure I know an ESXj 9w8. (Lately I think LSE is more likely than ESE.) He self-identifies as E9, and I'd definitely put him as a w8 over a w1 (at least, as far as the descriptions of those subtypes go).

[Waster]

@darya lol those EIIs need an energetic SLI female to take them shopping and tell them "whaaat?! Not this one, you'll look like a grandma. Try this one, you'll look better. You need sth with a bit of a kick. Don't frown! When are you gonna dress nice? When you're 80?! Go on. Try it on."
(Happens every time I go shopping with a SLI. It actually does me good )
My wardrobe is divided into two sections - hippie airy fairy girlie type (when I do shopping alone, or even better - online, cause I'm not a big fan of shopping...) and Lara Croft style (when I do shopping with SLI or with SLI's advice in mind)
Just saying....

Dress hippie airy fairy girlie! And post pictures!