Results 1 to 39 of 39

Thread: What you look like - who you are

  1. #1
    yeves's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    TIM
    Si 6 spsx
    Posts
    1,259
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default What you look like - who you are

    this was a provoking quote.
    would you agree or disagree? is your external appearance a window into the kind of person that you are on the inside, your feelings, thoughts, and motivations? or are your look of little to no relation to your personality, something separate from who you are to a great extent?



  2. #2
    Contra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    TIM
    ILI-Ni
    Posts
    1,405
    Mentioned
    55 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sounds very LSE or ESE

  3. #3
    when you see the booty Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    everywhere at once
    Posts
    8,449
    Mentioned
    203 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A person's physical appearance isn't merely a reflection of who they are ... it is who they are. The body and mind are not disparate entities you can simply divorce from each other because it's convenient; it's all part of the same organism.
    "And above all, watch with glittering eyes the whole world around you because the greatest secrets are always hidden in the most unlikely places. Those who don't believe in magic will never find it." -Roald Dahl

    http://forum.socionix.com/
    It's pretty cool

  4. #4
    Moderator Reficulris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,041
    Mentioned
    188 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    While Galen is technically right I'd say the subjective feeling of identity is a bit more nuanced and fragmented. I don't necessary identify with my body most of the time. Sometimes I identify with emotions (I am angry) or states (I am happy/depressed). Sometimes I identify with concepts (I am this type, I am this star sign, I am this type of moral person). Sometimes I identify as someone in relation to someone else (I'm your enemy, I'm your lover, I'm his business partner). The quote implies that identify is:A something that can be known and demarcatedB not changing or not changed easily (always body/looks)C the same for all people.Not saying its wrong, to a certain extend your looks/body are you and you are them.Interestingly enough there's all types of psychological problems coming from faulty body identity, from people who believe that a part of their body is foreign and should be purged, or the opposite, phantom pain. Also body dismorph syndrome where the person has a different "body identity" as what is apparent to others. Gender problems pose the same challenge to the quote.Finally if I do cosmetic surgery/facial reconstruction/liposuction, does my identity change? (Research suggests that yes, they infact often impact identity but not necessarily positively )Just some musings about it. Does it help any?

  5. #5
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    the maxim is not to judge by appearance... doesnt mean you can't infer at all, just not to be conclusive about it.

  6. #6
    A dusty and dreadful charade. Scapegrace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    TIM
    ill
    Posts
    3,055
    Mentioned
    169 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Wow. That's idiotic. Hey boys and girls, your genetic makeup is a direct reflection of who you are.

    STFU, stupid people.
    "[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan

    Brought to you by socionix.com

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Robot Assassin Pa3s's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    TIM
    Ne-LII, 5w6
    Posts
    3,648
    Mentioned
    46 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    People are nothing but smarter animals. They can't be blamed for their looks, yes, but they can't be blamed for their thoughts, either.
    „Man can do what he wants but he cannot want what he wants.“
    – Arthur Schopenhauer

  9. #9
    xerx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    5,464
    Mentioned
    53 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Either extreme in judgment is a stupid oversimplification.
    You can do anything with a bayonet except sit on it.

  10. #10
    Haikus Persephone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    The country of croissants
    Posts
    1,841
    Mentioned
    172 Post(s)
    Tagged
    5 Thread(s)

    Default

    It's quite tricky to judge people upon their appearance.
    Some people are less lucky than others, this is just the magic of genetics.
    We can build out our personality but our physical form is something random and its changes are quite limited.
    I am a bit perplexed about this approach of comparing the external and the internal aspects of an individual

  11. #11
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,626
    Mentioned
    156 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Seems fairly weird. Am I a truly different person if I cut my hair? If I take or lose 5 kgs? If I dress up or down? If I don´t go to the gym for a couple of months? As if most of my previous life experience had been erased? I don´t get how all this may make sense.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  12. #12
    lump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    Fi/Te 6 sp/sx
    Posts
    12,596
    Mentioned
    631 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Either extreme in judgment is a stupid oversimplification.
    basically this.

    appearance can provide clues but you can't make 1:1 correlations or be absolutely sure about the assumptions you make.

    even in the picture it says "obese by choice." you can't really tell from looking at an obese person whether they are obese by choice or not, you'd have to know them...so it contradicts itself right there.

  13. #13
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Space
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    12,802
    Mentioned
    367 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)

    Default

    A lot of people think I'm empty on the inside because of my appearance.

    I think you can gather what kind of life someone's lived by the way they look, whether those assumptions are right or wrong is really a hit or miss, though. For instance, as an esthetician, I can quite easily tell if a person abuses alcohol, drugs, cigarets, or tanning by the appearance of their skin. If someone has an excessive amount of plastic surgery you can probably gather that they're filling some kind of void, etc. If you see a relatively young person with a withered face, you begin to wonder about what they've been through. If a girl couldn't care less about wearing makeup, you can probably gather that they don't concern themselves with outward appearances and are comfortable with how they are. Just little things like that help you pick up clues to a persons psyche; of course, you can always be wrong, but in most cases these assessments can be leading.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  14. #14
    ■■■■■■ Radio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    2,574
    Mentioned
    153 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    a lot of the gym-bunnies i come across are complete assholes/douchebags. this is testament to that theory. so maybe there's some truth to this.

    case in point, the origin of the quote is this guy:


  15. #15
    Moderator Reficulris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,041
    Mentioned
    188 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Good physique, narcissistic picture taking and use of glasses make me think your douchebag assessment is spot on! However, in doing that I'm kinda doing what he's doing to fat people... Judging a book by its cover. I mean; maybe he's a real sweet sensitive guy who just likes going to the gym and someone took pictures?


    nahhh pretty sure he's an asshole

  16. #16
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Space
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    12,802
    Mentioned
    367 Post(s)
    Tagged
    9 Thread(s)

    Default

    Anyone who wears sunglasses to the gym is an asshole.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  17. #17
    Decadent Charlatan Aquagraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Continental Vinnland
    TIM
    OmniPoLR
    Posts
    3,967
    Mentioned
    126 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    A person's physical appearance isn't merely a reflection of who they are ... it is who they are. The body and mind are not disparate entities you can simply divorce from each other because it's convenient; it's all part of the same organism.
    Close enough, but people aren't the fotons that they emit.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

  18. #18
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Berlin
    TIM
    LSI 5w6 sx/so
    Posts
    5,421
    Mentioned
    144 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Meh. I know that science says not everyone can control the way they look.
    But I admit I often tend to think people choose what they do with their bodies, how much they embellish their faces, what they wear....

    I know it's superficial to stop there and I usually try to find stuff to like even if ppl don't look as if they had godlike powers.

  19. #19
    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    TIM
    ESI-Se 6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,269
    Mentioned
    142 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Skinny or workout obsessed people (re: the dude who posted that) who constantly talk about how gross fat people are...weird me out. they give off the impression that they are overly concerned about gaining any amount of weight.

    There are more worse things to be than overweight. Like schizophrenic.


    live and let live people.
    ( i wish everyone kinda wanted to live a hippy-ish, organic local foods lifestyle while cutting down environmental pollution...but that's not gonna happen. so whatever. live and let live).

  20. #20
    Haikus Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    22,740
    Mentioned
    531 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Yes but I have a little tasmanian devil in me who's very clamish reactive stern like a wall, upright stubborn, very straight as an arrow, exacting and demanding of honestly, good relations, demanding of people's kindness and just won't give up because as my friend describes me I am evolved and refuse to be like a monkey and expect that our basic drives be understood and thought about with maturity and responsibility. But my small frame and my love of people, to be there and listen, to help them talk about their troubles, vent and give them direction is my exterior and it's welcoming as I've been told.

  21. #21
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,319
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I don't think it's so much things like how long a person's neck is, or how far apart their eyes are, etc (genetic stuff) that we use as clues about a person, but what they do with what they've got.

    A person's chosen 'costume' can give an idea of their orientations ...at least a temporary orientation. Keeping one's hairstyle in a buzzcut rather than down to the waist could give clues. Even cutting one's hair from waist length to buzzcut gives an indication of the person's need/desire for a change. Going so drastic of a change indicates something drastic is happening in their life, or maybe a flair for the dramatic. How one dresses...such as loose and casual vs the careful lifting and displaying of certain body parts vs perfectly tailored buttoned up and suited...all give clues to a person's personality.

    A person's physical and subconscious gestures also give clues as to what kind of person they are.
    As does their manner of speaking.

    As for the quote about fat/obese people, ..or people with skin sores, or with rock hard muscled bodies, or other more physical traits, these can also give clues about what a person struggles with and their personality style. Do they perceive something as a problem, and what are they doing to try to solve the problem? For example, Are they so concerned with fat that they constantly focus on how fat someone else is, how much fat they have on themselves, etc? Do they admire super lean muscled bodies so much that they aim to reach that 'perfection' themselves so much that this is their entire lifestyle/hobby? Are they obese/fat but still working out and still watching what they eat? A person who come from genetically slim stock but carries a bunch of fat and doesn't care about what they eat has a different orientation than a person who comes from genetically heavy stock, is well muscled, but still carries around a bunch of fat. Yes, they are both fat...but their orientations to the fat, or to their bodies, or to their health are different.

    Basically, yes, a person's body, style, and mannerisms give clues about a person's orientations in life and thus their personality, but it's not a clean one-to-one thing. No one clue has a specific meaning, but many clues might point to the same meaning.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  22. #22
    Moderator Reficulris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    2,041
    Mentioned
    188 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    A lot of people think I'm empty on the inside because of my appearance.
    They call this the "halo effect" but it seems to work in favor of handsome guys and tends to be a mixed blessing for women. Beauty in females is linked to stereotypes of shallowness and stupidity. Alternatively, people will carry you around and drool at your feet.

    I think you can gather what kind of life someone's lived by the way they look, whether those assumptions are right or wrong is really a hit or miss, though. For instance, as an esthetician, I can quite easily tell if a person abuses alcohol, drugs, cigarets, or tanning by the appearance of their skin. If someone has an excessive amount of plastic surgery you can probably gather that they're filling some kind of void, etc. If you see a relatively young person with a withered face, you begin to wonder about what they've been through. If a girl couldn't care less about wearing makeup, you can probably gather that they don't concern themselves with outward appearances and are comfortable with how they are. Just little things like that help you pick up clues to a persons psyche; of course, you can always be wrong, but in most cases these assessments can be leading.
    Well, at least you can tell something about them in that moment. I mean, when I wake up I don't look particularly healthy. My hair looks like I had a bad case of sex gone wrong and my eyes are bloodshot. I will, if necessary leave the house in that state. It tells others that that day, I didn't care enough about my appearance to get in shape (i'm exagerating about the looks btw <- vain) but it doesn't necesarrily say anything about my confidence or lack thereoff.

    That said, I do dress up if I have to fire people or deal with a particularly nasty client/phonecall. So in that sense, yes, dressing up can be an indicator of insecurity or disease.

  23. #23
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,023
    Mentioned
    195 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Who takes the time to write this.

  24. #24
    strangeling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,704
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think it's true when people neglect their own health because it shows they don't seem to care about themselves, which this seems to be about. Outside of that, looks can be deceiving and first impressions are just that, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Seems fairly weird. Am I a truly different person if I cut my hair? If I take or lose 5 kgs? If I dress up or down? If I don´t go to the gym for a couple of months? As if most of my previous life experience had been erased? I don´t get how all this may make sense.
    Si-PoLR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    a lot of the gym-bunnies i come across are complete assholes/douchebags. this is testament to that theory. so maybe there's some truth to this.

    case in point, the origin of the quote is this guy:

    He does look good though, I gotta admit.

  25. #25
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,626
    Mentioned
    156 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    lol, the pose on the left is just awful
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  26. #26
    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Freiburg im Breisgau
    TIM
    ENTj
    Posts
    15,626
    Mentioned
    156 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I can quite easily tell if a person abuses alcohol, drugs, cigarets, or tanning by the appearance of their skin.
    Or perhaps he just works as a fisherman everyday from 4 am to 11 am.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

  27. #27
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,319
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    I think it's true when people neglect their own health because it shows they don't seem to care about themselves, which this seems to be about. Outside of that, looks can be deceiving and first impressions are just that, imo.
    It could also mean that they have something else in their lives that takes precedence, or some other influence in effect, or even that you and them have different meanings for caring about themselves. Some people view acts of beautifying as "caring about themselves" and a "desire to be healthy" while others don't see the common beautifying tactics as being particularly healthy and so don't do those, choosing instead to take care of themselves in other ways. The former group interprets the second group as unhealthy and not caring; while the second group tsks at the first group for unhealthy practices and not caring. Which one is right? That answer depends on the answerer's personal values.

    Then there are say..diseases of the body. Perhaps the person looks run down and unkempt to You, but behind the scenes they actually spend a lot of time and effort trying to manage a disease.


    But yeah, as humans we're made to respond quickly to first impressions. In the wild it's the safest bet. But in social situations it can lead to misunderstandings. First impressions are built off projections of our own values/experiences. Limited experiences, limited understandings of various influences, and limited curiosity, will often lead to erred judgments.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  28. #28
    strangeling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,704
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    That's true. But when someone weighs more than double my weight and is fat as hell, that isn't healthy and they have probably been neglecting their health for a long time. And it's just sad when these people are so unhealthy that they can't even walk right. So I'm not really arguing that because someone is unhealthy that it means that they neglect their health, but rather that some forms of bad health (such as morbid obesity) are pretty obvious indications of personal neglect. As far as I'm aware there are no known chronic diseases that force someone to become morbidly obese.

  29. #29
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,319
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    That's true. But when someone weighs more than double my weight and is fat as hell, that isn't healthy and they have probably been neglecting their health for a long time. And it's just sad when these people are so unhealthy that they can't even walk right. So I'm not really arguing that because someone is unhealthy that it means that they neglect their health, but rather that some forms of bad health (such as morbid obesity) are pretty obvious indications of personal neglect. As far as I'm aware there are no known chronic diseases that force someone to become morbidly obese.
    A simple google search for "diseases that cause obesity" yielded:

    Lack of sleep
    Too little sleep can cause changes in hormones that increase your appetite. You may also crave foods high in calories and carbohydrates, which can contribute to weight gain.

    Certain medications
    There's a long list of medications that can cause weight gain: If you're taking birth control pills, excess hormones for hormone therapy, corticosteroids, beta-blockers for heart disease and blood pressure, anti-seizure meds, breast cancer medications like Tamoxifen, some treatments for rheumatoid arthritis, and even some migraine and heartburn medications, antidepressants, diabetes meds, or antipsychotic meds, you may notice pounds creeping on.
    Some affect appetite; some affect metabolism.

    Medical Conditions
    Obesity can sometimes be traced to a medical cause, such as Prader-Willi syndrome, Cushing's syndrome, and other diseases and conditions. Some medical problems, such as arthritis, can lead to decreased activity, which may result in weight gain.

    Muskuloskeletal Conditions
    Including plantar fasciitis, osteoarthritis, knee or hip pain. Anything that necessarily reduces one's ability to move.

    Chronic stress
    When you live with anxiety, stress, or grief, your body can produce chemical substances -- like the hormone cortisol -- that make your body more likely to store fat, especially around the waist. That's the type of weight gain that really increases your risk of serious health problems.

    Cushing's syndrome
    This happens when the adrenal glands (located on top of each kidney) produce too much cortisol, which leads to a buildup of fat in the face, upper back, and abdomen.

    Hypothyroidism
    If your thyroid is underactive, your body may not produce enough thyroid hormone to help burn stored fat. As a result, your metabolism is slower and you will store more fat than you burn -- especially if you're not physically active.

    Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS)
    This disease, the result of a hormonal imbalance, afflicts more than 5 million women in the US. Common symptoms are irregular menstrual bleeding, acne, excessive facial hair, thinning hair, difficulty getting pregnant, and weight gain that is not caused by excessive eating.

    Syndrome X
    Also called insulin resistance or hyperinsulinemia (high insulin levels), syndrome X goes hand-in-hand with weight gain. Syndrome X is a cluster of health conditions thought to be rooted in insulin resistance. When your body is resistant to the hormone insulin, other hormones that help control your metabolism don't work as well.

    Depression
    Many people who are depressed turn to comfort foods to ease their emotional distress. Depression also reduces energy levels needed for regular physical activity.

    Many anti-depressant medications cause weight gain—so if you're depressed and taking pills for it, expect to see a bump in weight between 5 and 15 pounds, with continued gradual accumulation over the years,

    Hormonal changes in women
    Some women may gain weight at times in their lives when there is a shift in their hormones -- at puberty, during pregnancy, and at menopause.

    Nutritional Deficiencies
    Being low in vitamin D, magnesium, or iron can compromise your immune system, sap your energy levels, or alter your metabolism in ways that make it harder to take healthy-lifestyle steps.

    Aging
    It's the one condition that's unavoidable. We don't burn as many calories at 40 or 50 as we used to burn at 20. So we need more exercise—and less food—to keep metabolism going.

    following conventional diets of high carbs, low fats
    All calories are not created equal. Proteins reduce muscle loss and aid muscle gain, influencing the efficiency of calorie burning. Carbs influence insulin and other fat storing hormones. Eating high-carb low-fat encourages the body to use carbs as primary fuel source, and store whatevers left as fat. Rather than encouraging the body to use fats as its primary fuel source.


    ---
    Now, combine a few of those together. For example, a menopausal female living in a northern climate with low sunlight, with a lifetime problem of PCOS and a genetically structural defect in her knee/hip alignment which has led to need of a knee/hip replacement and developed arthritis early in life. She takes medications for the pain, so she can move around more. She follows her drs orders to eat a high carb, low fat diet, which helps because she's no longer able to work and carbs are cheap. She takes anti-depressants, but is still beat down by the stress of financial problems and lack of sleep due to the chronic pain.

    That covers 10 of the above incomplete list of possible causes for obesity. Yet this example shows she does care about herself. She follows drs orders. She's doing what she can for her health, yet she's still likely to continually gain weight.

    You don't want to think about hormonal aging women? Fine, what about an athlete who was in an accident, needs back surgery, takes pain meds, is unable to move, is still working on changing his diet from what he was used to eating as an athlete (but habits can be difficult to change), and is going through the stresses of how to support his family without a job and rising medical bills, and lack of sleep due to the pain and the stress. Because he was a large man to begin with, it didn't take long before his muscle loss turned him into looking like a fat slob, barely able to move, who didn't care about himself or his health.

    Being fat/obese isn't always as simple a matter as most people want to think it is.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  30. #30
    strangeling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,704
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Except these are all manageable conditions. And none of them are an excuse for being morbidly obese. If it gets that far then they neglected themselves along the way. At some point they could have done something about it before it got way out of hand to morbid obesity.

  31. #31
    strangeling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,704
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Okay, so you think someone that is morbidly obese is just a victim of some condition? I'd really like clarification on how you view this here.

  32. #32
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,319
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    I'd really like clarification on how you view this here.
    As I've said...

    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    I don't think it's so much things like how long a person's neck is, or how far apart their eyes are, etc (genetic stuff) that we use as clues about a person, but what they do with what they've got.
    Do they perceive something as a problem, and what are they doing to try to solve the problem?
    Basically, yes, a person's body, style, and mannerisms give clues about a person's orientations in life and thus their personality, but it's not a clean one-to-one thing. No one clue has a specific meaning, but many clues might point to the same meaning.
    It could also mean that they have something else in their lives that takes precedence, or some other influence in effect, or even that you and them have different meanings for caring about themselves.
    Perhaps the person looks run down and unkempt to You, but behind the scenes they actually spend a lot of time and effort trying to manage a disease.
    But yeah, as humans we're made to respond quickly to first impressions. In the wild it's the safest bet. But in social situations it can lead to misunderstandings.
    And finally...
    First impressions are built off projections of our own values/experiences. Limited experiences, limited understandings of various influences, and limited curiosity, will often lead to erred judgments.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  33. #33
    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mind
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    568 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default



    World isn't disney.



    Getting closer



    Oh there's some compassion in the world



    Girls still like that square jaw good looks thing



    True love!



    Poor guy.

  34. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    TIM
    SLE/LSE sx/sp
    Posts
    2,489
    Mentioned
    76 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    I do find I make judgements on obesity. For instance if a fat person is being slow I will tend not to think it is because they are tired but because they are lazy. I also have a tendency to think that bodybuilders like the one above for instance are vain, or insecure.

    Anyway the idea of attaching certain character/attitudes to physique is not knew. EG somatotype associates ecto/endo/meso characteristics with body type, and also many people who do excessively work out have body dysmorphia. It's also not a stretch to think the reason why most excessively fat people are fat is because they eat too much coulped with not taking exercise. I mean the list can go on eg if someone looks excessively skinny and unkempt then you can think there's a good chance they are drug addicts and the heap of problems they might have with it - angry, unreliable etc.

  35. #35
    strangeling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,704
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Anndelise, I agree with you. But I'm not talking about first impressions in general or obesity in general. Rather I'm talking about the extreme of morbid obesity specifically. Morbid obesity is a slow process that doesn't happen overnight; so in order for someone to get morbidly obese they would have to ignore their obesity problem until it becomes a bigger problem. This to me indicates that they do not care about themselves enough to manage their health, which is a pretty serious problem, especially when it means they can no longer function as a normal person (some are bed ridden, while others can no longer walk or take care of themselves). So what I'm asking you is to tell me how this indicates that the person cares about their health when they have both plenty of time to recognize their obesity problem and then to deal with it before it becomes a bigger problem, if you want to address my original argument that you haven't yet properly refuted.

  36. #36
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,319
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    Anndelise, I agree with you. But I'm not talking about first impressions in general or obesity in general. Rather I'm talking about the extreme of morbid obesity specifically. Morbid obesity is a slow process that doesn't happen overnight; so in order for someone to get morbidly obese they would have to ignore their obesity problem until it becomes a bigger problem. This to me indicates that they do not care about themselves enough to manage their health, which is a pretty serious problem, especially when it means they can no longer function as a normal person (some are bed ridden, while others can no longer walk or take care of themselves). So what I'm asking you is to tell me how this indicates that the person cares about their health when they have both plenty of time to recognize their obesity problem and then to deal with it before it becomes a bigger problem, if you want to address my original argument that you haven't yet properly refuted.
    I already provided you two examples. do you seriously need me to walk you through it? Fine, Here's a reminder of one of them.

    Now, combine a few of those together. For example, a menopausal female living in a northern climate with low sunlight, with a lifetime problem of PCOS and a genetically structural defect in her knee/hip alignment which has led to need of a knee/hip replacement and developed arthritis early in life. She takes medications for the pain, so she can move around more. She follows her drs orders to eat a high carb, low fat diet, which helps because she's no longer able to work and carbs are cheap. She takes anti-depressants, but is still beat down by the stress of financial problems and lack of sleep due to the chronic pain.

    That covers 10 of the above incomplete list of possible causes for obesity. Yet this example shows she does care about herself. She follows drs orders. She's doing what she can for her health, yet she's still likely to continually gain weight.
    Here's your walk through:
    A lifetime of PCOS - "This disease, the result of a hormonal imbalance, afflicts more than 5 million women in the US. Common symptoms are irregular menstrual bleeding, acne, excessive facial hair, thinning hair, difficulty getting pregnant, and weight gain that is not caused by excessive eating."

    "PCOS makes it more difficult for the body to use the hormone insulin, which normally helps convert sugars and starches from foods into energy. This condition -- called insulin resistance -- can cause insulin and sugar -- glucose -- to build up in the bloodstream.

    High insulin levels increase the production of male hormones called androgens. High androgen levels lead to symptoms such as body hair growth, acne, irregular periods -- and weight gain. Because the weight gain is triggered by male hormones, it is typically in the abdomen. That is where men tend to carry weight. So, instead of having a pear shape, women with PCOS have more of an apple shape."

    From this we get the idea that she has likely struggled with weight gain all her life. Not from overeating, but because
    a) her body has difficulty converting her foods into energy. This likely leads to her feeling constantly hungry, even soon after having already eaten.
    b) insulin and sugar is building up in her blood stream, eventually to be stored as fat
    c) the high insulin increases the male androgens hormones, and combined they lead to fat being stored in her abdomen.
    d) she's also likely struggling with hair growth, acne, and irregular periods.

    Aged enough to be menopausal - suggests that while she was in teens, early 20s, etc, she would have been told over and over again that she needed to eat a High carb Low Fat diet which includes 6+ servings of carbs including whole grains. (See the old food pyramids.) But with the PCOS, those 6+ servings of carbs would be converted into abdominal fat because her body can't use them for energy.

    So why didn't she exercise? Who says she didn't?

    Genetically structural defect in knee/hip alignment - means that over time, walking would have been difficult. Again because of her age she would have grown up when running was the main cardio workout suggested by drs. Running with bad alignment would have meant constant injuries to her knees, hips, and ankles. Healing from injuries requires non-exercise recovery time. Needing and getting knee/hip surguries or replacements also requires recovery time...and increases Financial Stresses. All this also leads to...Early Onset Arthritis.

    Early onset arthritis - Now we are adding on chronic pain, fatigue, inflammation, and stiffness of the joints. All these make being active more difficult for her. Her inflammation is also made worse by eating those grains and starches she's been told are healthy for her to eat.

    Chronic Pain -
    "A vicious cycle occurs in the relationship of arthritis and stress. The difficulties which arise from living with chronic arthritis create stress. The stress causes muscle tension and increased pain along with worsening arthritic symptoms. The worsening symptoms lead back to more stress."

    So....to help relieve the pain so she can be more active, she takes
    Pain medications - "Many arthritis patients are prescribed a corticosteroid, such as prednisone, as part of their treatment plan. Without some precautionary measures, stress can be dangerous to someone taking corticosteroids. Corticosteroids are closely related to cortisol, which is a hormone produced by the adrenal glands. Cortisol helps regulate salt and water balance and carbohydrate, fat, and protein metabolism. When the body experiences stress the pituitary gland releases a hormone which signals the adrenal glands to produce more cortisol. The extra cortisol allows the body to cope with the stress. When the stress is over, adrenal hormone production reverts to normal.

    Prolonged use of corticosteroids results in diminished production of cortisol by the body. With insufficient cortisol production, the body could be left inadequately protected against stress and open to additional problems such as fever or low blood pressure. Physicians often prescribe an increased dose of corticosteroid to compensate for this when there is a known or expected stressful event."

    And now, with all those dr visits for knee/hip pain, arthritis pain, cost of medications, and time off from work to take care of all these health isues, she now also has to deal with

    Financial stresses. "When you live with anxiety, stress, or grief, your body can produce chemical substances -- like the hormone cortisol -- that make your body more likely to store fat, especially around the waist. That's the type of weight gain that really increases your risk of serious health problems."
    (So now she has the PCOS, the Stress hormones, AND the dr prescribed diet leading to fat storage around her abdomen.)

    Combine the chronic pain of knee/hip, arthritis, and the financial stresses and she now also suffers from
    Lack of Sleep - "Too little sleep can cause changes in hormones that increase your appetite. You may also crave foods high in calories and carbohydrates, which can contribute to weight gain."

    Her body isn't converting her dr suggested foods into energy, compounding the fatigue and hunger effects. By this time she is beating herself up for always being hungry, for having such a hard time controlling her binges, and even though all this time she's been trying to do what the dr ordered, she can't understand why all this is so freakin hard for her. Leading to...

    Depression - "Many people who are depressed turn to comfort foods to ease their emotional distress. Depression also reduces energy levels needed for regular physical activity."

    So now her movement abilities are compromised by the knee/hip pain, arthritis stiffness/inflammation, and fatigue from PCOS related lack of energy, as well as Lack of Sleep, AND depression. Sooo, she asks for an Anti-Depressant to help her gain some energy so she can be more active so she can continue trying to lose this weight that just keeps piling on.

    Anti-Depressants - "Many anti-depressant medications cause weight gain—so if you're depressed and taking pills for it, expect to see a bump in weight between 5 and 15 pounds, with continued gradual accumulation over the years."

    oh wait, but there's more, remember that she lives in a Northern climate w low sunlight? "Being low in vitamin D, magnesium, or iron can compromise your immune system, sap your energy levels, or alter your metabolism in ways that make it harder to take healthy-lifestyle steps."

    Yep, yet more energy sapping issues which she's likely not aware of the cause of.

    And finally, after 51 years of struggling with her weight, and following drs orders, she now has to deal with
    a) Aging-"It's the one condition that's unavoidable. We don't burn as many calories at 40 or 50 as we used to burn at 20. So we need more exercise—and less food—to keep metabolism going."
    and
    b) the Hormonal Changes of Menopause - "Some women may gain weight at times in their lives when there is a shift in their hormones -- at puberty, during pregnancy, and at menopause."


    Note that NONE of this was caused by overeating, it initiated because of a genetic muskuloskeletal alignment problem and the precondition of PCOS from puberty.

    NOTE ALSO that she did everything she was told to do to lose the weight. She followed her drs diet advice, and she took medications to help get more energy and less pain so she could be more active.

    And finally, NOTE that she did NOT ignore her health problems, nor her growing fat problems. And in fact, part of her later fat problems came from trying to solve the earlier fat problems.

    I'm willing to bet that this woman cares more about her health than someone who hasn't had any of these issues to deal with. Who take it for granted that their bodies will continue to work as it always has, and who will wake up at 40-something surprised to see that they've developed a pot belly over the years.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

  37. #37
    strangeling's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,704
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Right, but all of those things are manageable. If you manage them, you won't gain weight. What's hard to understand here? You go to the doctor and they tell you what you need to do; if it doesn't work, you go back until they figure out what's wrong or go to someone that specializes in your issue. The only exception I can think of, which I can't make out from your writing style, is when they have a disease that doctors aren't aware of or don't have the money for care. Otherwise, the fault is on the person gaining weight. And if they weren't aware of her (whomever this her is) PCOS, then okay. But this isn't the norm. lol, I mean wow, it's almost like you seem to think that Obesity is out of everyone's control for one reason or another. It's not, although I know that genetics makes it harder to control for some people over others, but it's still no excuse. More times than not people that are overweight don't care to do anything about it, rather than having some obscure condition.

  38. #38
    chairpersonality Holon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    TIM
    O,!C,I;IEI
    Posts
    516
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The issue is that obesity is a complex problem. (It's also very vague: are we talking about people who are saliently extremely obese (like way over 45% body fat), or the medical definition of obese, which is just where body fat starts to cause health problems?) Humans are more complex than just thermodynamic functions mapping caloric arguments to aesthetic values. A person is a focal point of of chemical, social, and emotional processes. How does someone who's asthenic exercise enough to burn fat? How does someone who's injured do so? How can the weak behavioural tone of the PFC control the dominating behavioural tone of the NAcc? How do we deal with the emotional component of someone who's stigmatised for being overweight and the effects that has on their health and behaviour? Executive functions can only carry a person so far, they're not a limitless and perfect resource. You can't suffocate yourself by holding your breath, and controlling feeding and exercise behaviour isn't an easy thing to do.

    If obesity was an easy problem to reduce and solve, we wouldn't have obesity journals shrugging their shoulders and saying "well we don't really know conclusively what's causing it, or how to fix the problem". Ultimately hyperreductionisms run counter to the reality that knowledge is a difficult thing to produce, and problems are difficult to solve.

    scribbles in the dark

  39. #39
    escaping anndelise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    WA
    TIM
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp
    Posts
    6,319
    Mentioned
    206 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackk View Post
    Right, but all of those things are manageable. If you manage them, you won't gain weight. What's hard to understand here? You go to the doctor and they tell you what you need to do; if it doesn't work, you go back until they figure out what's wrong or go to someone that specializes in your issue. The only exception I can think of, which I can't make out from your writing style, is when they have a disease that doctors aren't aware of or don't have the money for care. Otherwise, the fault is on the person gaining weight. And if they weren't aware of her (whomever this her is) PCOS, then okay. But this isn't the norm. lol, I mean wow, it's almost like you seem to think that Obesity is out of everyone's control for one reason or another. It's not, although I know that genetics makes it harder to control for some people over others, but it's still no excuse. More times than not people that are overweight don't care to do anything about it, rather than having some obscure condition.
    What part of what I wrote do you not see as her trying to manage it all??
    She went to the dr for help, he told her the typical diet advice of the time. The one that still gets pushed these days. High carb, low fat. Except that it's only been fairly recent that some drs have begun thinking low carb high fat might be the better treatment. And there are still drs pushing the high carb low fat diet onto women with pcos. You can't hold her accountable for ideas that weren't there when she first sought help 30 years ago, and still hasn't been presented to her today.

    You keep trying to say that someone like her didn't care about her health and didn't try to manage her health. Except that I've just described how she definitely cared and tried her whole life to manage it. Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

    You seem to think that weight is some simplistic thing. Like eat less exercise more. Except that in this case, pcos leads to weight gain WITHOUT even eating more. What part of pcos do you not understand??

    You keep saying that most times overweight/obese people don't care enough to do anything about it.
    You are confusing "lack of success" with "not caring" and "not trying".

    You think pcos doesn't cover that many obese people? Look at the numbers.
    * In the world, about 1 out every 10 women has pcos. The numbers are higher in the usa, but we'll just use this one.
    * 8 out of 10 women with pcos are overweight/obese..it's such a strong aspect to the disorder, no matter how hard they try to manage it.
    * So, in 100 women, 10 of them have pcos, and 8 of those are overweight/obese.
    * In the usa, 35.5 women out of 100 are overwight/obese.
    * Which means that 8 of those 35.5 obese/overweight women are struggling with pcos.
    * Which means that at least 1 out of 4.5 overweight/obese women in the usa are struggling with pcos.

    1 out of 4.5 is not even close to being obscure!
    And this only covered just ONE disorder that directly leads to weight gain. There are still others.

    You keep saying they need to manage it? Then go tell the drs how to do it, because it's been a huge issue for many years. The best treatment they've used that I know of for the past 20 years is birth control pills. And what's one of the leading side effects of taking birth control pills? Weight Gain!

    It's only been in the past couple of years that I've seen women trying...AGAINST Dr orders and AGAINST "conventional wisdom"..trying the low carb high fat diet...which seems to be showing great promise in helping not only with their weight struggles, but also with the other health problems pcos directly contributes to. (But again, this is a recent thing, and you can't hold the women and drs responsible for not looking into it years ago.)
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •