What are your thoughts?
Current Gaza crisis
What are your thoughts?
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I would really like to hear what you think if you care to share, but I understand the concern re: debates...Originally Posted by Radio
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
That Israel is run like a bronze age polity intent on visiting biblical levels of destruction on its conquered peoples.
The whole situation is about religion at some level, even if that is an excuse.
Israel should not have been recognised as a country in 1948 by whichever countries...it is likely very difficult to see those countries reversing their stance and it certainly won't have any impact. The best that can be hoped for is that Israel has sanctions against it for breaching various UN resolutions...in the case of the Palestinians it would be best if the UN took care of security. This would of course be hugely controversial considering that many people consider Israel to be worse than Palestine, in which case, take control of the whole lot.
I find it a little depressing that people tend to take sides and demonize one or the other. I see complications that create conflict and both sides are to blame for that in my eyes. I don't see how it is then helpful to play the blame game when that makes one side's concerns and motivations go ignored or invalidated and well...this causes the problems to begin with, so that's not smart. However, Israel having the military, economic, and political power that it has has more responsibility to choose options that will solve these problems.
That said,
I think Israel needs to do something to stop Gaza from breeding terrorists that want to terrorize Israel. Perhaps they should take over the Gaza Strip and become more involved in what's going on there, improving the lives of the Gazans while weeding out the terrorists, instead of imposing economic sanctions that seem to impoverish Gazans, increasing the overall hatred of Israel and motivate the current and potential terrorists to want to kill Israelis.
Though I honestly wonder why the Gazans support Hamas to even begin with. I've heard they intentionally position military rockets, vehicles, and equipment next to civilian populations so that when Israel takes them out they kill civilians, supposedly to make Israel look bad. And it goes to show that Hamas is not in the Gazan's best interests, but maybe they aren't aware of this or if they are then maybe they have no control over the politics that support Hamas. Either way, I feel Israel should probably step in and take out Hamas while taking control of Gaza, then put a more supportive government in place and tough out a long political process of changing Palestinian opinion of them. If the Gazans see them as a positive influence, then opinions will change.
well, i've always been pro-palestine and i thought it was the obvious side to pick. but then one time fdg was strongly pro-israel in the shoutbox, so i think choosing a side here is like picking your favourite team in a football match. i can't really defend myself beyond some surface understanding of the political history behind the issue, but the fact that there are still people out there who can proudly defend Israel's actions as anything other than absolute human cruelty -- compare ramallah or any part of the gaza strip with tel aviv, even before this conflict began! -- is depressing. you take a nation of people never having enjoyed the stability of living in a place they could call home since 1948, corner them in like prisoners, and then off them one by one, building by building. you keep them oppressed in a place they once called their own country, and then argue for some pacifist evil bullshit like, oh Israel just wants to make amends and give palestinians their own land. tbh, what's going on right now is a genocide of the palestinian people so Israel can enjoy the luxury of a complete takeover without worrying about giving homes to those pesky arabs.
sorry, /2c, do not quote and argue, i don't give a shit.
some articles:
http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/201...rsial-subject/
http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situat...ael/a-17822511
http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...g-else/374898/
Quite astonishing that the Syrian conflict has killed more than 10 times the number of people than the Israel - Palestine conflict in 70 years and has displaced about the same number of people.
(I don't think that last article is being completely fair...the Israel-Palestine conflict is a long-running thing and the West "decided" not to deal with the Syria conflict directly this time round)
Well...this is why I say it's not helpful to blame one side because by ignoring the other side's position, the problems can't be resolved as long as one side attacks the other.
More or less,
From Israel's point of view, the blockade was used to stop Gaza from attacking Israel. The goal was to regulate the ability of the Gazans to perform terrorist acts on them. But from the Gazan's point of view, Israel is imprisoning and oppressing them and naturally they don't like it. They are both valid positions.
And it's a shame that Israel didn't think about the long-term problems their blockade would even create; they screwed up by doing this. But in order to fix the situation now, what choice do they have other than to invade Gaza? Because no matter how much they try for peace, the Gazan's continue to launch rockets into Israel, even during cease-fires, and continue to build tunnel-networks for attacking Israel. Hamas even trains children to die fighting against Israel and then uses civilians as shields and political fodder for making Israel look evil. I think Hamas even said at one point that they will never accept the Israelis as long as they stay in Israel; what else can Israel do about that then? It's a very shitty situation all-round. But even if people don't agree with Israel, Israel doesn't seem to have much choice, but to use force, if they expect to get rid of Hamas.
The thing that bugs me the most and that no one seems to consider is that if Hamas stopped attacking Israel, Israel is willing to take down the blockade and open its borders. They have shown this repeatedly in not breaking cease-fires and being open to peaceful resolutions. But Hamas seems unable to understand or even accept that as a solution. And if that's their position, then no matter how much Israel may want peace, it'll only breed conflict unfortunately.
If you have two sides that are very asymmetrically balanced in terms of power and both are dogmatically sure of their position, it is perhaps not so difficult to understand
I think that's it. The US has pretty much pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan. So the civil conflict doesn't seem to matter as much as what Israel does, a nation with close ties to US politics. Plus, since it's mostly civil war, the West doesn't really have any direct responsibility over that. It's almost as if by even being there, we delayed the inevitable.
^^ Unfortunately, that's a very real reality for Israel that popular opinion doesn't seem to take note of.
I tend to be pro israel because despite their apartheid-esque behaviour, they are the most sane country in the middle east.
ww3 will be a continuation of ww2 cuz israel just like ww2 was due to ww1.. no telling wtf will happen rly imo
i agree, it only destroys and mutilates other people
@William, I am not mad at you for not caring (I would have to be mad at too many people), but I don't think it's productive to launch into rant without knowing what is going on?
It is not just land or holy sites. It is about national borders and occupied territory. People on either side want to live in peace, without being bombed, threatened by terrorists, being controlled, having curfews and rations imposed on them, having their house torn down or their bus torn to shreds. It is the perfect example of why you can't just occupy land and give it to other people. But what is done is done and at this point I am thinking that if these two side cannot figure it out, then the outside has to step in (again). I have been very critical of Israel in the past for their apartheid politics, but I was never outspoken about it because the issue is messy and complicated. But this conflict has now killed an estimated 1400 Palestinians. They hit at least one U.N.-run shelter and it is hard to believe this was an accident. This is not a tragedy or a sad event, it's state-run terrorism funded by the very world leaders who meekly speak out against the violence. And it does NOTHING to protect Israel. Quite the contrary.
Current death toll: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv.../gaza-counter/
It's total insanity and someone needs to beat both sides over the head with a stick and make it stop.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
And I don't even know where to begin with Syria...
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I think that nobody cares about Cyprus, etc. because the Jews didn't do it. Yah, boi. I went there.
Anyway, this has gone on too long and it has just set any sort of solution back 30 years. The fact that Hamas doesn't mind using children as pawns is disgusting.
"[Scapegrace,] I don't know how anyone can stand such a sinister and mean individual as you." - Maritsa Darmandzhyan
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Fairly standard for the region, but it only destroys and mutilates people who continuously attack it with bombs and rockets - Like any other sane country. It then breaks tradition by not being a paternal autocracy fronted either by a king, a strong man general or a religious crack pot.
What about Israel bombing U.N.-shelters with women and children although the U.N. had provided them with locations as NOT to be bombed?
It is disgusting on both sides, but the Palestinian civilians suffer far more than the Israeli civilians, no matter how you slice it.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
So I'm curious now, but would the war somehow be more acceptable to people if the Israeli civilians suffered as well?
No. This conflict is neither justified nor productive. But people justify it by saying that Hamas is evil and that Israel is only protecting itself. My response is that the attacks kill more civilians than members of Hamas and it is only making Israel more vulnerable.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
So what would you say Israel should have done instead? Cause I don't think anything they have been doing seemed to help either.
And Hamas retaliates against Israeli aggression in self defense like any sane protector would.Anybody can play this game and use this stupid rhetoric.
If anything, Palestinians have more of a right to lob their shitty home-made bottle rockets because it's they who've been conquered. The West Bank and Gaza are literally under Israeli military occupation (blockades count) with the PLO -- a collaborationist government -- in place in the West bank, which can't even stop the annexation of its land to build Israeli settlements.
Throughout past and recent negotiations, the Likud party has continued building new settlements in violation of international law. Even if the Palestinians completely surrendered, the slow process of ethnic cleansing won't stop.
Of course, the half of Israel that consists of second (or non-) class citizens shares profusely in this glorious democratic vision.a paternal autocracy fronted either by a king, a strong man general or a religious crack pot.
As for religious crack-pottery, the basis for Israel's land claims is the restorations of the "god-given" lands of Israel. The Likud party's manifesto states unequivocally that even the Palestinian West Bank is an integral part of Israel, encompassing the ancient kingdom of Judah.
They have to have serious talks, recruit help from world leaders and start negotiations in which they are ready to give up land and work towards a peaceful resolution. They have to own up to the fact that they have effectively implemented apartheid and that it's in their power to end the conflict by making concessions. It's the only way. There is no guarantee it will work and demands will obviously clash, but Israel has far more leverage by being the one ending this violence and really working towards negotiations again.
This conflict is not helping Israel in the least. It is only making everything worse because it fuels hatred in the region and will make Hamas stronger. Even if I I could in some shape or form justify the attacks (I cannot, personally, but I can see how people feel they can), they are just not doing anything good for Israel AT ALL.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I'm not picking a side.... but everyone ends up crying in this story...
Uh, I was just trying to get a rise out of you. I'm obviously pro-palestine as well.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
i know that nuking the middle east is like drinking a chocolate milk/gummy bear smoothie. not bad taste for a glass factory
Pro-Israel or Pro-Palestine? How about Pro-Civilian. States are imaginary entities that shield individuals on both sides from responsibility while most of the damage is inflicted upon those individuals who didn't want any aggression in the first place. All this is almost always done for the gain of few and at a net loss.
Initiation of force is immoral and every soldier who kills non-aggressing individuals are nothing but glorified murderers. "Just following orders" as a criminal only means that you have an accomplice or that you were coerced to do it.
You have the right to use legal and illegal means to resist taxation that funds wars. PM me and I can help you wash your hands from this and expatriate from the US, UK or Syria.
Last edited by Aquagraph; 08-25-2014 at 12:39 PM.
“I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden
chocholate+gummy bear smoothies anyone?
This sounds good in theory, but Hamas isn't willing to negotiate; if Israel puts down arms, Hamas will attack them. Further Hamas uses the Palestinian people as human shields, so if Israel attacks Hamas, civilians get killed as well and Hamas is okay with this. Again, what is Israel supposed to do?
From http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/45...uld-the-united
Israel is doing precisely what every other western democracy would do if confronted with the situation Israel now faces. Colonel Richard Kemp—a British expert on this kind of warfare—has said: that Israel it is doing it more carefully and with more concern for civilian life that any other country. The Israeli military devotes considerable resources to trying to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, while Hamas devotes its resources to trying to maximize both Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
...
It is worth remembering what the United States and Great Britain did during the Second World War. After German rockets were fired at London, Winston Churchill ordered the carpet bombing of Dresden, deliberately intending to kill as many civilians—men, women and children—as possible in order to weaken the morale of his enemy. The United States firebombed Tokyo killing 100,000 people and then dropped two nuclear bombs killing many more. The United States has also killed many civilians in Afghanistan, Iraq and Kosovo, as has Great Britain and other members of NATO. In none of these wars did western armies take the precautions and give the warnings that Israel has undertaken.
...
President Obama has recognized the difficulties faced by Israel in protecting its citizens from rockets and terror tunnels that are deliberately placed in hospitals, United Nations facilities, mosques and civilian homes. There is a considerable amount of open spaces in the Gaza Strip. Just look at population density maps (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...ettlements.stm) rather than listening to the misstatement repeatedly parroted by the media: namely that the Gaza Strip is the most densely populated area on earth. It's not even close. There are cities within the Strip that are densely populated, but there are other areas—some of them quite large—in the Gaza Strip that are relatively sparsely populated. If Hamas were to fire its rockets from, and placed their terror tunnels in these open areas, there would be few civilian casualties. But it is part of Hamas' strategy to place these lethal weapons in densely populated areas, precisely in order to maximize Palestinian civilian casualties.
And I don't understand how people can fervently support a terrorist organization that is fine using their own civilian population as human shields. How does Israel get the blame for that? Because no matter how much the Palestinians may hate Israel, this fact alone shows the danger of their extremism. Hamas is willing to hurt innocent people to fulfill their hatred of Israel. It's bizarre that so many people think you can even reason with Hamas, despite everything they do to prove otherwise. Hamas isn't looking for serious talk or concessions; they want Israel gone.
Taken from the Hamas founding ideology:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
From
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/23/world/...ame/index.html
What Hamas wants:
1. The destruction of Israel.
This mission is written into the preamble of Hamas' founding document: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It's a demand that is globally repudiated as outrageous. It is unrealistic for Hamas to think that it can somehow destroy Israel. As long as Hamas leaders latch on to that as an endgame, the result will be continued flare-ups for years to come.
Some Hamas leaders have stated a willingness to accept peace with Israel under certain conditions, the Council on Foreign Relations notes in a report. For instance, they want Palestinian refugees to be able to return. But such voices are not being heard in the current conflict.
If Hamas is incapable of destroying Israel, it might still be dedicated to scaring Israelis off the contested land, journalist Jeffrey Goldberg at The Atlantic posits.
"The goal of Hamas—the actual, overarching goal—is to terrorize the Jews of Israel, through mass murder, into abandoning their country," Goldberg wrote. "If generations of Palestinians have to be sacrificed to that goal, well, Hamas believes such sacrifices are theologically justified."
CNN Middle East analyst Michael Oren, a former Israeli ambassador to the United States, suggests a different type of war -- a media campaign by Hamas.
"Hamas knows it can't destroy Israel with its rockets or tunnels, but it can create a legal and international situation where Israel can no longer legitimately defend itself," he said.
Reports of civilian casualties in Gaza -- without the context of rockets being fired at Israel -- play into Hamas' media strategy, he said.
Again, what else can Israel do?
And what if the intent is to kill aggressing individuals, but the only way to get those individuals is to take out non-aggressing people in the cross-fire? That seems neither moral, nor immoral to me.
They have to show the Palestinians that they are willing to act in their interest. Hamas only has leverage if people support them. Also, Hamas was born out of Israel occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza strip (so its origin is not diffuse hatred for Israelis, but a point in history that was marked by Israeli aggression against Palestinians). It is a reaction to Israeli control of the region that belonged to Palestinian people. Israel's seizing of Palestinian land and oppression of Palestinians has fueled Hamas support, so the ONLY WAY to deal with this is to acknowledge that Israel is complicit in creating this conflict and to go back to the drawing board. Hamas does not stand for all Palestinians, so if Palestinians see that peace talks can mean true peace and autonomy, Hamas support will diminish.
I think the discussion of who is the more evil of the two is really futile. But Israel is in control and you cannot impose a system of separation, oppression, take land, tear down houses, and expect people to not get frustrated.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Israel doesn't have any Palestinian land though. They were given the land they have by the UN after World War II and had to fight the Arabs that would not accept them even having their own state. The Arabs don't believe Israel should be there at all and don't seem to be able to accept them. But if you are referring to the blockade, that was implemented to stop arms from getting to Palestinian terrorists in Gaza. Maybe it backfired and increased terrorist activity, but the Arabs have always wanted Israel gone. The blockade didn't suddenly create this terrorism. This was a problem before that. I do agree that the blockade is a bad idea all-around on many philosophical levels; but I can't agree that Israel should try and negotiate with a terrorist organization that has shown it will not negotiate until Israel is gone. It seems pretty clear that Hamas needs to at least be dissolved before 'peace' can even take place.
Actually, Hamas has recently joined a coalition with Fatah, the other Palestinian government in the West Bank (formerly the PLO). The PLO has recognized Israel's right to exist for over a decade before Hamas gained any kind of politicial power.
Moreover, Hamas has for a number of years agreed to negotiate a two-state settlement, which is an implicit recognition of Israel without formally stating the obvious and losing face. Even the ineffectual and corrupt Arab League has agreed to full recognition and the normalization of trade with Israel if it accepted the [internationally recognized] two state solution based on the pre-June 1967 border.
This is mostly a silly myth promulgated to make it seem like the Palestinians are unreasonable frothing at the mouth fanatics. In reality, it's the Palestinians that have repeatedly *repeatedly* given concessions to Israel in diplomatic negotiations, such as recently allowing them to keep most of their major (and illegal) settlements around East Jerusalem. Beggars can't be choosers.
*
Israel has also been known to use Palestinian civilians as human shields according to reports by two human rights bodies: B'tselem, which is an Israeli organization, and Human Rights Watch, which is a major international organization.
Last edited by xerx; 08-04-2014 at 04:08 PM.
I wonder what people imagine when they think of Hamas militants. The reality is that most are college-aged young men in their late teen and early twenties with shitty prospects for a better future. The best they can aspire to is selling fruit from a hand-drawn cart for the rest of their fucking life.
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