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    Default Discussion of Socionics foundations

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post

    The fact that you are ruling out a basic fundamental dichotomy like Process/Result shows that your actual knowledge of Socionics theory is really weak, Process/Result is essentially the basis for the rings of social progress, which seems to be things that you have zero knowledge about.

    Before you start throwing your weight around, trying to "canonize" things, realize that you actually don't know that much and that for every right thing you do you're making a number of wrong decisions.
    Why do you believe Process/Result or even Social Progress to be basic or fundamental to Socionics? Although Social Progress has the Process/Result or Left/Right dichotomy at its centre, Aushra's and Gulenko's ideas on Social Progress are not only poorly explained but their connection to Model A lacks demonstration. In fact, the only way we can show how Leading Ie and Creative Li (ILE) can be more like Leading Se and Creative Ei (SEE) than Leading Ie and Creative Ei (IEE) or Leading Se and Creative Li (SLE) is if we were to resort to plus and minus IM elements, something most Socionists including myself consider to be logically superfluous.

    One might then argue that without the Process/Result dichotomy being a necessary result of Model A, we can end up with contradictions. If we were to accept both Model A and Process/Result as canon without one being entailed by the other, a clear ILE type in terms of Model A who happens to write in a concrete --> abstract, 'Result' manner would present a major flaw to Socionics.

    I would also argue that the ideas of Social Progress are superfluous to a more Model A-centric account of the relationships of Benefit and Supervision where the feelings of inadequacy arise in the former case from the matching of the Beneficiary's Suggestive with the Benefactor's Creative and the Benefactor's Suggestive with the Beneficiary's Vulnerable and in the latter case, from the matching of the Supervisor's Leading with the Supervisee's Vulnerable and the matching of the Supervisee's Leading with the Supervisor's Creative.

    In short, because I find it reasonable to believe all parts of the canon should be demonstrable from Model A, I would not consider Social Progress or the dichotomies crucial to it (but not crucial to Model A) to be canon but requiring empirical backing and better explanation before they are canonised. I also find that this demonstrates the strength of my knowledge of Socionics and not any weakness.

    Would you be willing to voice which wrong decisions are being made?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Why do you believe Process/Result or even Social Progress to be basic or fundamental to Socionics? Although Social Progress has the Process/Result or Left/Right dichotomy at its centre, Aushra's and Gulenko's ideas on Social Progress are not only poorly explained but their connection to Model A lacks demonstration. In fact, the only way we can show how Leading Ie and Creative Li (ILE) can be more like Leading Se and Creative Ei (SEE) than Leading Ie and Creative Ei (IEE) or Leading Se and Creative Li (SLE) is if we were to resort to plus and minus IM elements, something most Socionists including myself consider to be logically superfluous.

    One might then argue that without the Process/Result dichotomy being a necessary result of Model A, we can end up with contradictions. If we were to accept both Model A and Process/Result as canon without one being entailed by the other, a clear ILE type in terms of Model A who happens to write in a concrete --> abstract, 'Result' manner would present a major flaw to Socionics.

    I would also argue that the ideas of Social Progress are superfluous to a more Model A-centric account of the relationships of Benefit and Supervision where the feelings of inadequacy arise in the former case from the matching of the Beneficiary's Suggestive with the Benefactor's Creative and the Benefactor's Suggestive with the Beneficiary's Vulnerable and in the latter case, from the matching of the Supervisor's Leading with the Supervisee's Vulnerable and the matching of the Supervisee's Leading with the Supervisor's Creative.

    In short, because I find it reasonable to believe all parts of the canon should be demonstrable from Model A, I would not consider Social Progress or the dichotomies crucial to it (but not crucial to Model A) to be canon but requiring empirical backing and better explanation before they are canonised. I also find that this demonstrates the strength of my knowledge of Socionics and not any weakness.

    Would you be willing to voice which wrong decisions are being made?
    The fact that you don't understand what I'm talking about means you should do some more research before you even start trying to determine what is "canon" and what isn't. I can't really take you seriously because the gaps in your knowledge are glaring and isn't something that can be fixed except by your own investigations. Plus and Minus are logically superfluous because they are already represented by Process/Result, you can't dismiss both however. +/- also has taken on new definitions now and is no longer based in the same thing that Gulenko associated +/- with, which is process/result. Now it deals with function blocking differences.

    Google is your friend. There are plenty of articles on this site and on Russian sites. Good luck.

    IMO, you're simply not in a position to determine what is canon or not. You need to understand Process/Result before you go any further, you also need to understand ring of social progress as well. A hint, a information metabolism processes information, but what does information processes to and from?

    Even if you get past this simple problem, it's obvious you're not ready to establish any sort of canon and neither is any of the individuals you discuss this with. Socionics canon is not simply your cliffnotes on what you know about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Theories that are not canonised are not ignored however but would be accepted into the canon once empirically demonstrated to be the case through the running of tests in scientific conditions (something the WSS would wish to oversee for the purposes of improving and expanding Socionics).
    I would like to see the empirical evidence for classical socionics.

    Please show me and I will believe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    I hope all of you LSS losers burn and die.
    lol, somebody's membership was denied!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    The fact that you don't understand what I'm talking about means you should do some more research before you even start trying to determine what is "canon" and what isn't. I can't really take you seriously because the gaps in your knowledge are glaring and isn't something that can be fixed except by your own investigations. Plus and Minus are logically superfluous because they are already represented by Process/Result, you can't dismiss both however. +/- also has taken on new definitions now and is no longer based in the same thing that Gulenko associated +/- with, which is process/result. Now it deals with function blocking differences.

    Google is your friend. There are plenty of articles on this site and on Russian sites. Good luck.

    IMO, you're simply not in a position to determine what is canon or not. You need to understand Process/Result before you go any further, you also need to understand ring of social progress as well. A hint, a information metabolism processes information, but what does information processes to and from?

    Even if you get past this simple problem, it's obvious you're not ready to establish any sort of canon and neither is any of the individuals you discuss this with. Socionics canon is not simply your cliffnotes on what you know about it.
    It's not a question of being ignorant of how the rings of Benefit and Supervision are the supposed key of Social Progress, it's a question of whether these stray leaves of theory are even connected to the trunk that is Model A. Plus and Minus elements were believed to serve as the connection. Instead, we have the problem whereby there is no particular element in a particular block that leads to someone being Process or Result, instead they have to incidentally belong to a certain ring... Why am I a Process type? It's nothing to do with what IM Elements I use or prefer, it's just that I happen to benefit types that are also Process, making things circular. Gulenko even makes it quite clear that Social Progress is a separate thing to Model A, contrasting blocks with rings. Suffice to say, Process/Result is not convincing as a dichotomy until it can be shown that an already accepted part of Model A entails it. Without that, things get fuzzy and reading Gulenko's articles on this subject show just how fuzzy it is... social missions etc.

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    President of WSS Jack Oliver Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Words View Post
    I would like to see the empirical evidence for classical socionics.

    Please show me and I will believe!
    Model A is derived from basics that are empirical... Would you say that the Jungian dichotomies are not empirical? The largely empirical Big 5 can be seen as coming to very similar conclusions as those first four dichotomies and Model A comes from logical deductions from them and the Information Aspects. The Aspects themselves are categories or groupings of things which we know to exist in some way even if they exist a figments of our imagination... For instance, I have good evidence (within reason, I'm not inviting universal sceptics) to say that there are emotions, relations, possibilities, durations of time, laws, methods, sensations and actions. Model A simply structures these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    It's not a question of being ignorant of how the rings of Benefit and Supervision are the supposed key of Social Progress, it's a question of whether these stray leaves of theory are even connected to the trunk that is Model A. Plus and Minus elements were believed to serve as the connection. Instead, we have the problem whereby there is no particular element in a particular block that leads to someone being Process or Result, instead they have to incidentally belong to a certain ring... Why am I a Process type? It's nothing to do with what IM Elements I use or prefer, it's just that I happen to benefit types that are also Process, making things circular. Gulenko even makes it quite clear that Social Progress is a separate thing to Model A, contrasting blocks with rings. Suffice to say, Process/Result is not convincing as a dichotomy until it can be shown that an already accepted part of Model A entails it. Without that, things get fuzzy and reading Gulenko's articles on this subject show just how fuzzy it is... social missions etc.
    You're ignorant. I don't really want to comment on the literature of Model A because in many ways that's unimportant and I've never care about Model A as a end point of all theoretical discussions. However Process/Result is a fundamental part of socionics, even more fundamental than Model A.

    Process/Result is imo far more fundamental than Model A, I don't really think you understand what process/result means in information processing in socionics.

    Process type information transformation(using just extroverted nomenclature as these related to energy processes) is -> -> -> - >
    Result type information transformation is -> - > -> ->

    This is because information metabolism process information like thermodynamic process process energy and is a reversible process.

    The Ring of Social Progress exist because information is being processed to a purified form in the creative function and handed off in a uni-directional way to either the beneficiary or supervisor.

    This is fundamental architectural features of Socionics, based on far more important axioms of Socionics.

    The funny thing is 3rd order dichotomies Positivist/Negativist, Process/Result, Merry/Serious, Judicious and Decisive are far more important architecturally than 1st order Jungian dichotomies.

    This is because Jungian dichotomies are empirical and behavioral observations which are much more readily apparent.

    However, the underlying essense of socionics is how information is processed, what information is prefered.

    Merry/Serious is the / divide, Judicious/Decisive the / divide. Process/Result, the direction of information flow. Gulenko called this evolutionary/involutionary, and for very good reason. Positivist/Negativist isn't something I've investigated fully but as a third order dichotmy
    , it's likely very important.

    Get off your high horse and realize you actually don't have a great understanding of this topic and are in zero place to decide what is canon or not canon. You're just a kid who has a lot to learn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Model A is derived from basics that are empirical...
    Model A is not, Model is derived from a some very tenuous hypothesis and analogies, which are then tied to pre-existing empirical observations. Once again you don't seem to really understand Socionics.

    The basis of socionics is some very out in left field analogies and intuitions which are not empirical. However, it does neatly explain many pre-existing phenomena and observations.

    It's a "rationalist understanding" of pre-existing empirical observations.

    It attempts explains and understand empirical observations, but it is absolutely not based in empirical observations.

    It's a neat explaination, not a empirical observation.

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    I love this idea that questioning the basis of the theory, makes you ignorant @Jack Oliver Aaron

    Ultimately Hkkmr has lost the logic train that each of these other systems is infact a different empirical formula on top of the pre-existing empirical formula of Model B thus inventing their own alternative model which is less faceted not more faceted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You're ignorant. I don't really want to comment on the literature of Model A because in many ways that's unimportant and I've never care about Model A as a end point of all theoretical discussions. However Process/Result is a fundamental part of socionics, even more fundamental than Model A.

    Process/Result is imo far more fundamental than Model A, I don't really think you understand what process/result means in information processing in socionics.

    Process type information transformation(using just extroverted nomenclature as these related to energy processes) is -> -> -> - >
    Result type information transformation is -> - > -> ->

    This is because information metabolism process information like thermodynamic process process energy and is a reversible process.

    The Ring of Social Progress exist because information is being processed to a purified form in the creative function and handed off in a uni-directional way to either the beneficiary or supervisor.

    This is fundamental architectural features of Socionics, based on far more important axioms of Socionics.

    The funny thing is 3rd order dichotomies Positivist/Negativist, Process/Result, Merry/Serious, Judicious and Decisive are far more important architecturally than 1st order Jungian dichotomies.

    This is because Jungian dichotomies are empirical and behavioral observations which are much more readily apparent.

    However, the underlying essense of socionics is how information is processed, what information is prefered.

    Merry/Serious is the / divide, Judicious/Decisive the / divide. Process/Result, the direction of information flow. Gulenko called this evolutionary/involutionary, and for very good reason. Positivist/Negativist isn't something I've investigated fully but as a third order dichotmy
    , it's likely very important.

    Get off your high horse and realize you actually don't have a great understanding of this topic and are in zero place to decide what is canon or not canon. You're just a kid who has a lot to learn.
    I'm finding it hard to see why Process/Result is more important than Model A. It's hardly more comprehensive. I don't think I can understand what it means to be an ILE through Process/Result or how I pass energy from LSEs through my creative function to EIEs in the comprehensive way I can through Model A. If it's really that different from the framework we see as Socionics then perhaps it's just a different theory. It looks very different from the Jungian-based theory I'm used to and you'd think it would have been mentioned in any introduction to Socionics.

    It seems more likely that you're just another kook. There seems to be a growing number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Model A is not, Model is derived from a some very tenuous hypothesis and analogies, which are then tied to pre-existing empirical observations. Once again you don't seem to really understand Socionics.

    The basis of socionics is some very out in left field analogies and intuitions which are not empirical. However, it does neatly explain many pre-existing phenomena and observations.

    It's a "rationalist understanding" of pre-existing empirical observations.

    It attempts explains and understand empirical observations, but it is absolutely not based in empirical observations.

    It's a neat explaination, not a empirical observation.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...gustinaviciute

    Go back to school, do not pass go, do not collect $200..
    See you haven't properly disagreed with me. I do believe it can be deduced from empirical roots but the explaining will take more time than I wish to spend here. Really I would like to show that these tenuous hypotheses and analogies only look that way if you cut steps. It seems intuitive to us because our unconscious doesn't miss out these steps. I could write an article on it though when I have the time. Would probably be very interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    I'm finding it hard to see why Process/Result is more important than Model A. It's hardly more comprehensive. I don't think I can understand what it means to be an ILE through Process/Result or how I pass energy from LSEs through my creative function to EIEs in the comprehensive way I can through Model A. If it's really that different from the framework we see as Socionics then perhaps it's just a different theory. It looks very different from the Jungian-based theory I'm used to and you'd think it would have been mentioned in any introduction to Socionics.

    It seems more likely that you're just another kook. There seems to be a growing number.
    You're the kook that's started his own little cult of "classical socionics".

    Which isn't even "classical socionics".

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ical_socionics

    A lot of people far more knowledgeable about Socionics wrote these even if I find it very limiting. But stop trying to steal their horse, find your own.

    Anyways, have fun with your pursuit, but I'm telling you right now you need to call it something else, because you don't even understand what Aushra wrote. I'm not interested in canonizing socionics anymore than it's already been canonized by the previous "classical socionicists" who spent years doing it. I see it as an already dead study for which there is as of yet no successor, which has a lot of interesting and cool features. It's like alchemy or any number of past and present proto-sciences.

    Anyways, hopefully you'll realize in the future how ignorant you are, because you're already way off the grid as far as actual Socionics is concerned.

    And about Gulenko, Gulenko's pet dichotomy is Process/Result. He call this his fifth dichotomy, +/- and evolutionary/involutionary. It's a central dichotomy in most of his major writings, in style of thinking/social progress and other works. Trying to use Gulenko to dismiss process/result is a joke.

    Frankly, if you never figure out your mistakes which are probably many, you're probably better off studying something else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    See you haven't properly disagreed with me. I do believe it can be deduced from empirical roots but the explaining will take more time than I wish to spend here. Really I would like to show that these tenuous hypotheses and analogies only look that way if you cut steps. It seems intuitive to us because our unconscious doesn't miss out these steps. I could write an article on it though when I have the time. Would probably be very interesting.
    You haven't even begun to understand me or Aushra, and it's important if you want to be able to talk about Socionics. Read the article I linked you and understand it, once you do, we can then dissect it for errors and places where Aushra wasn't clear, because she cut some corners in her work because that knowledge isn't available.

    Anyways, you're way overestimating your understanding of this topic, and there are many many individuals who know way more than you. You'll figure that out some day, and it'll probably be the most important day for you as far as this topic is concerned.

    Frankly, you probably won't be able to understand me for quite some time. But I'm not going to sell you that I'm right, but what I can tell you is that without a doubt, you have overestimated your own abilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You're the kook that's started his own little cult of "classical socionics".

    Which isn't even "classical socionics".

    http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...ical_socionics

    A lot of people far more knowledgeable about Socionics wrote these even if I find it very limiting. But stop trying to steal their horse, find your own.

    Anyways, have fun with your pursuit, but I'm telling you right now you need to call it something else, because you don't even understand what Aushra wrote. I'm not interested in canonizing socionics anymore than it's already been canonized by the previous "classical socionicists" who spent years doing it. I see it as an already dead study for which there is as of yet no successor, which has a lot of interesting and cool features. It's like alchemy or any number of past and present proto-sciences.

    Anyways, hopefully you'll realize in the future how ignorant you are, because you're already way off the grid as far as actual Socionics is concerned.

    And about Gulenko, Gulenko's pet dichotomy is Process/Result. He call this his fifth dichotomy, +/- and evolutionary/involutionary. It's a central dichotomy in most of his major writings, just as style of thinking/social progress and other works. Trying to use Gulenko to dismiss process/result is a joke.

    Frankly, if you never figure out your mistakes which are probably many, you're probably better off studying something else.
    Hardly little and hardly a cult, we're getting connections to the British Psychological Society. Having to get the whole ethical write-ups necessary for recognition as a proto-professional body.

    Actually it is Classical Socionics, I even used that page and the links attached to it for writing up the canon.

    I'm not stealing any horses... I've simply found them unruly and am breaking them in.

    You seem to have a very different idea of what 'actual' Socionics is compared to the Socionics people learn about, a bit like Aestrivex and Olga. Gulenko mirroring your ideas would not make it any less kooky, indeed many people think Gulenko has gone kooky himself what with typing inanimate objects back in the Ukraine.

    Yes, I know Gulenko really likes Process/Result. It still doesn't undermine that he presented it as something separate to Model A.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Hardly little and hardly a cult, we're getting connections to the British Psychological Society. Having to get the whole ethical write-ups necessary for recognition as a proto-professional body.

    Actually it is Classical Socionics, I even used that page and the links attached to it for writing up the canon.

    I'm not stealing any horses... I've simply found them unruly and am breaking them in.

    You seem to have a very different idea of what 'actual' Socionics is compared to the Socionics people learn about, a bit like Aestrivex and Olga. Gulenko mirroring your ideas would not make it any less kooky, indeed many people think Gulenko has gone kooky himself what with typing inanimate objects back in the Ukraine.

    Yes, I know Gulenko really likes Process/Result. It still doesn't undermine that he presented it as something separate to Model A.
    Have I ever mentioned Model A in any of my posts? This is your fixation. What makes you think that's all there is to Socionics?

    Model A is the end product of a lot of axioms and analogies and hypothesis. What Model A is based on is relevant, what Model A predicts is relevant. Guess what Model A is predicated on....

    Wait for it... functions... information preference... information transformation... information metabolism...

    Guess what... Process/Result is related to some of that.

    Obviously you haven't been reading what I linked you.. for fuck sake... just read it, it's not my writing. It's as close to canonical writing as it gets. Which is Aushra's original writing. And this is before Model A can even begin to exist.

    If you want to make a typology based on Model A without any basis on Aushra's writings, and only based on observed individuals, feel free to do that, but don't pretend it's canonical to Socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Olga's theory that raises temperament above quadra for compatibility and has methods for typing people based on colour and music preferences.
    where? I need to see that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Have I ever mentioned Model A in any of my posts? This is your fixation. What makes you think that's all there is to Socionics?

    Model A is the end product of a lot of axioms and analogies and hypothesis. What Model A is based on is relevant, what Model A predicts is relevant. Guess what Model A is predicated on....

    Wait for it... functions... information preference... information transformation... information metabolism...

    Guess what... Process/Result is related to some of that.

    Obviously you haven't been reading what I linked you.. for fuck sake... just read it, it's not my writing. It's as close to canonical writing as it gets. Which is Aushra's original writing. And this is before Model A can even begin to exist.

    If you want to make a typology based on Model A without any basis on Aushra's writings, and only based on observed individuals, feel free to do that, but don't pretend it's canonical to Socionics.

    Crikey, I forgot about this.


    Process/Result is a questionable dichotomy that does not fit in well with Socionics because it is not clearly deduced from the basic axioms of Socionics in the way that Model A is. Yes, Model A is a deduced structure from the axioms based around how information is divided into eight aspects (dividable because they themselves fall into three sets of rather apparent dichotomies of Introverted/Extroverted, Static/Dyamic and Internal/External) It all follows through. Process/Result on the other hand, like Negative/Positive, requires a leap. It is not explained why ILE and SEI are Process yes ESE and LII are result for instance... what about the structuring of their information metabolism tells me that followed by leads to process orientation yet followed by :Fi; leads to result orientation? Why if these are the case is followed by also result? Where is the rule behind these distinctions? All I see are assertions as to what each type's social role is, which I would not say is nearly so sufficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Model A is derived from basics that are empirical... Would you say that the Jungian dichotomies are not empirical? The largely empirical Big 5 can be seen as coming to very similar conclusions as those first four dichotomies and Model A comes from logical deductions from them and the Information Aspects. The Aspects themselves are categories or groupings of things which we know to exist in some way even if they exist a figments of our imagination... For instance, I have good evidence (within reason, I'm not inviting universal sceptics) to say that there are emotions, relations, possibilities, durations of time, laws, methods, sensations and actions. Model A simply structures these.
    I don't think you're using deduction and empirical accurately.

    In a field based off of abstractions and a balancing of concepts, i think induction is the only way you can really get anywhere in terms of progress.
    You can not touch these themes. They are all subjective. How can you deduce concepts empirically? How? Really, show your deductions and your empirical evidence. I guarantee once you type it out, people will be able to roadblock you thoroughly on whether those deductions/empirical data fit the criteria you're imposing for inclusion into the group.

    Tangenting off -
    In a system that is largely subjective and conceptual, youre doing yourself a favor to give as much weight to the subjective and conceptual, if not more, than the objective conclusions(which in of itself is an oxymoron as conclusions are not objective).
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Crikey, I forgot about this.


    Process/Result is a questionable dichotomy that does not fit in well with Socionics because it is not clearly deduced from the basic axioms of Socionics in the way that Model A is. Yes, Model A is a deduced structure from the axioms based around how information is divided into eight aspects (dividable because they themselves fall into three sets of rather apparent dichotomies of Introverted/Extroverted, Static/Dyamic and Internal/External) It all follows through. Process/Result on the other hand, like Negative/Positive, requires a leap. It is not explained why ILE and SEI are Process yes ESE and LII are result for instance... what about the structuring of their information metabolism tells me that followed by leads to process orientation yet followed by :Fi; leads to result orientation? Why if these are the case is followed by also result? Where is the rule behind these distinctions? All I see are assertions as to what each type's social role is, which I would not say is nearly so sufficient.
    You still don't understand what makes socionics unique as a explanation of personality and the reason why Model A was developed. Sadly, this is the case for most people coming into this study. The basis of socionics is an analogy, a extremely powerful one which almost everything is derived from. If this analogy is not useful, then socionics should be discarded. Fortunately many empirical observations can be explained by this analogy, and it has a strong philosophical basis. Do you know what this analogy is?

    This is actually a test.

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    President of WSS Jack Oliver Aaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You still don't understand what makes socionics unique as a explanation of personality and the reason why Model A was developed. Sadly, this is the case for most people coming into this study. The basis of socionics is an analogy, a extremely powerful one which almost everything is derived from. If this analogy is not useful, then socionics should be discarded. Fortunately many empirical observations can be explained by this analogy, and it has a strong philosophical basis. Do you know what this analogy is?

    This is actually a test.
    Are you talking about Socionics as 'society'? Or are you talking about Information Metabolism being an analogy? I know you are caught up in the idea of the types being interconnected in a sense of passing information on from one quadra to the next but I just see a nice idea, not anything that is grounded to the main principles, not something that actually explains much of my observations to date and certainly not something that would tarnish Socionics if it were hacked off like a malformed, gangrenous extra limb before the infection spreads.

    It seems to me that this whole thing is of a spirit with the very beginnings of Aushra's, Gulenko's, Bukalov's etc. work. I would also say that back then, Ti had something to do with being able to calculate spatial differences.

    I think that Classical Socionics (including Reinin dichotomies necessary up until the formation of Model A and the Quadras) is a wonderful system as a coherent whole. I do not think these detachable tenets that you speak of need to be kept in the same way that Aushra did not keep everything that Jung mentioned. Now if you can explain how it all fits together and actually elevates the theory rather than entangles it, then I'll be inclined to change my mind.


    I think Socionics is unique in that is a comprehensive, workable theory of typology that outshines its primitive ancestors.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Are you talking about Socionics as 'society'? Or are you talking about Information Metabolism being an analogy? I know you are caught up in the idea of the types being interconnected in a sense of passing information on from one quadra to the next but I just see a nice idea, not anything that is grounded to the main principles, not something that actually explains much of my observations to date and certainly not something that would tarnish Socionics if it were hacked off like a malformed, gangrenous extra limb before the infection spreads.

    It seems to me that this whole thing is of a spirit with the very beginnings of Aushra's, Gulenko's, Bukalov's etc. work. I would also say that back then, Ti had something to do with being able to calculate spatial differences.

    I think that Classical Socionics (including Reinin dichotomies necessary up until the formation of Model A and the Quadras) is a wonderful system as a coherent whole. I do not think these detachable tenets that you speak of need to be kept in the same way that Aushra did not keep everything that Jung mentioned. Now if you can explain how it all fits together and actually elevates the theory rather than entangles it, then I'll be inclined to change my mind.

    I think Socionics is unique in that is a comprehensive, workable theory of typology that outshines its primitive ancestors.
    You still don't know what this analogy is and this is the main principle difference in Socionics vs existing Jungian typology, without it, the rest doesn't exist. Information metabolism is not an analogy, this is observation of the human central nervous system and not an analogy. Neither is information preference and information processing as these are also empirical observations. There is no analogy here, the mind is generally though of as actually having information preference and being a information processor.

    The idea of inter-type relations, social process, the information elements, the information aspects are all related to the central analogy of socionics and it is an analogy that is the basis of the structure of Model A and the various directions of information processing in socionics. The directions of information transformation being Process/Result.

    As of right now , you don't understand this part of Socionics as it is the fundamental innovation of socionics, and imo as you lack this fundamental understanding, you really have no means to evaluate it. I could tell you the analogy, and I could tell you many things about how it helps build up Model A and all the abstract constructs which are deduced from Model A but I would rather you figure this one out yourself.

    This is one of the big aha moments in Socionics and I rather not take it away from you. As far as you thinking many of these ideas are detachable, they're not, they're all consequences of this analogy, you have to discard everything that is a product of this analogy and not merely what you do not understand.

    Socionics attempts to explain Jungian Typology, which is very limited in nature, it includes parts of Freudian typology and the works of Kepinski. The central analogy of socionics and a few other axioms allows for all these various studies to be integrated into a coherent whole. Socionics does not discard any part of Jungian typology, nor does it discard any part of Freudian psychology and Kepinski's information metabolism, any observations that were correct for those concepts are not falsified or invalidated. Aushra may not have rewritten Jungian Typology, but she didn't discard anything from Jungian typology or Freudian psychology or from Kepinski's work. Her work is explanatory and additive not exclusionary. She stood on the shoulders of these psychologists, and explained their ideas in a coherent whole and from what I can tell nothing is lost.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...gustinaviciute

    Start here, until you understand where I'm coming from, you will never understand the basis for these constructs which you have a erroneous conception of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    Process/Result is a questionable dichotomy that does not fit in well with Socionics because it is not clearly deduced from the basic axioms of Socionics in the way that Model A is.
    How come? All the Reinin dichotomies are a logical consequence of classical socionics, actually, of Jungian type theory. You may argue the correctness of their description or you may disagree on their names, but the amorphous entity "Dichotomy that now is called process-result" does exist in the model.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    How come? All the Reinin dichotomies are a logical consequence of classical socionics, actually, of Jungian type theory. You may argue the correctness of their description or you may disagree on their names, but the amorphous entity "Dichotomy that now is called process-result" does exist in the model.
    I think he lacks an understanding of Socionics's explanatory mechanism, however I think he believes that he understand which is a shame. I myself have many questions about why Aushra formed Model A from her basic explanation, however this is where the questions for future psychologist lay. If what Aushra says is theoretically accurate and what was observed empirically by Jung is reasonably accurate, then the gap of deduction in the middle where Aushra theorizes and Jung observes would be the detailed mechanism of the human information metabolism.

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    sorry, kind of a noob here, but where exactly can I find scientific peer-reviewed studies that show empirical....anything, about socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    sorry, kind of a noob here, but where exactly can I find scientific peer-reviewed studies that show empirical....anything, about socionics?
    Socionics was samizdat in the former USSR, and has only recently entered into western thought, this site being one of the main sources of information on this topic. You need to wait a long while. Also as socionics is a social science, it will only be social science research that can be done upon it.

    You have a right to be skeptical, but expecting anything concrete in English on this topic isn't reasonable until adequate funding and acceptance by individuals and institutions allows for research to proceed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    sorry, kind of a noob here, but where exactly can I find scientific peer-reviewed studies that show empirical....anything, about socionics?
    You won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Socionics was samizdat in the former USSR, and has only recently entered into western thought, this site being one of the main sources of information on this topic. You need to wait a long while. Also as socionics is a social science, it will only be social science research that can be done upon it.

    You have a right to be skeptical, but expecting anything concrete in English on this topic isn't reasonable until adequate funding and acceptance by individuals and institutions allows for research to proceed.
    I was hoping there was a translation of the russian PR articles hiding someplace on the internet. Obviously peer-reviewed doesn't mean the contents of the article are true, but I'd be more interested in reading articles by someone with professional writing skills.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    I was hoping there was a translation of the russian PR articles hiding someplace on the internet. Obviously peer-reviewed doesn't mean the contents of the article are true, but I'd be more interested in reading articles by someone with professional writing skills.
    Many people here on the forum have professional writing skills and have written various things professionally and academically. Kim teaches writing, Golden was a editor, Siuntal is a academic, Octo is an academic, etc etc etc.

    The individuals here who put time and effort into this topic certainly include many well-credentialed and experienced professionals, translation is a incredibly difficult task, and someone like Siuntal who has high quality writing skills as well as a knowledge of Russian is very hard to find. This community is very lucky to have someone who is as interested in this topic as well as having knowledge of Russian.

    This is a very new topic in the West and many of the individuals here came here right after college or during college/high school, but people grow older, gain skills and knowledge and experience the fullness of life. In time, they will accumulate acclaim and success in their specialty and their words will have weight to others more then today, and hopefully at that time, this topic will gain more traction in the minds of other individuals to a point where research can proceed. This is a long and hopefully worthwhile journey which has been endeavored by many members of this community.

    It's characteristic of many individuals to blame their lack of understand or knowledge on inadequate resources but it's often also their lack of character and ability which produces such a consequence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    It's characteristic of many individuals to blame their lack of understand or knowledge on inadequate resources but it's often also their lack of character and ability which produces such a consequence.
    Like who?

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    lol. its not that socionics lacks evidence. its that you lack character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    lol. its not that socionics lacks evidence. its that you lack character.
    This.

    The lack of evidence for socionics is simply due to your lack of character.

    Or more correctly: You lack character and socionics lacks evidence. So therefore Socionics does not lack evidence.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    lol. its not that socionics lacks evidence. its that you lack character.
    Eh, I never said that. I actually said that socionics lacks evidence, so it's not for people that are looking for evidence from other people. However this study is for people who are looking to find and discover that evidence by themselves thru their exploration. If people don't have enough character to accept the study for what it is, I don't know what to say. The work to discover the evidence(or not) is in the future not the past. People should have enough character to deal with the state of affairs as it is now instead of whining incessantly about evidence that doesn't exist and won't until someone does the work. It's pointless and slights all the effort that the other members have put into this study.

    What I said is that some people blame their lack of understanding and knowledge on inadequate resources(which is the state of affairs in socionics). This is not a study for people who aren't research minded and willing to study things with their own eyes and mind instead of reading something completely established.

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    You lack character and Socionics lacks evidence. So therefore Socionics does not lack evidence.

    If you would merely alter your lack of character to have more character then there would be no problem.

    You heard it here first.

    You unbelievers are all lacking character.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    You lack character and Socionics lacks evidence. So therefore Socionics does not lack evidence.

    If you would merely alter your lack of character to have more character then there would be no problem.

    You heard it here first.

    You unbelievers are all lacking character.
    It's not about unbelievers, I could care less about that. It's about whiners.

    1. Socionics lacks evidence

    This is readily apparent and self-evident.

    2. There are people who want to establish Socionics with evidence.

    3. There are people who don't believe in Socionics or find it useful and leave, that's fine.

    4. There are people who whine incessantly about Socionics lacking evidence.

    You can do it once or twice, but incessant whining is disingenuous and annoying. It's also bad character to lie about what other people are saying. Jim you're one of the biggest liars on this forum, so please stop. Nobody is trying to say that socionics has evidence.

    Just stop whining you whiner.

    If people don't like socionics of believe it has any worth, just stop doing it instead of asking others to spoon feed them knowledge and understanding.

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    its not whining to call a spade a spade.
    you want to spritz it with lavender and put a pretty dress on it and then you have the gall to call the naysayers disengenuous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Legerdemain View Post
    sorry, kind of a noob here, but where exactly can I find scientific peer-reviewed studies that show empirical....anything, about socionics?
    There are a number of socionic schools and research groups that periodically publish articles which you can find posted on their sites. For example this study on Reinin traits was done by the group at School of Dynamic Socionics. There is no formal peer review or any other centralized system of checks between these schools and 'quality' of these studies varies. You can find the abstracts to many of them in Socionics, Mentology, and Personality Psychology which appears to be a socionics journal with the highest impact factor.

    As someone who has been involved in the peer-review process of scientific publications in the West I can tell you that it's no guarantee of the credibility of the study. Quite often the professors who receive the articles for review assign them to their overworked postdocs and graduate students who either don't have the interest and time for a thorough scrutiny of the work or aren't too familiar themselves with how to assess the validity of the research methodology and permit questionable material to pass through for publication.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    its not whining to call a spade a spade.
    you want to spritz it with lavender and put a pretty dress on it and then you have the gall to call the naysayers disengenuous.
    It's whining and disengenous to incessantly request evidence knowing full well it doesn't exist and might only exist in the future.

    I'm not trying to spritz it with lavender. I will say to anyone that socionics lacks evidence.

    However it's disingenuous to keep asking for evidence when others have said that decent evidence doesn't exist.

    1. Ask for evidence
    2. Told it doesn't exist and will exist perhaps in the future
    3. Ask for evidence again and again even after being told that it doesn't exist yet.

    Is this not simply the act of a lunatic or a fraud? The answer to the first question has been conclusively given, yet over and over again the question is asked as if the answer has never been given. Such actions are without merit and character. It's simply disingenuous and dishonest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    There are a number of socionic schools and research groups that periodically publish articles which you can find posted on their sites. For example this study on Reinin traits was done by the group at School of Dynamic Socionics. There is no formal peer review or any other centralized system of checks between these schools and 'quality' of these studies varies. You can find the abstracts to many of them in Socionics, Mentology, and Personality Psychology which appears to be a socionics journal with the highest impact factor..
    If I'm going to read about socionics I require well-written articles that don't sound like some random dude got a notebook of acid and decided to become a mystical guru wizard princess, hence my request for peer-reviewed articles.

    As someone who has been involved in the peer-review process of scientific publications in the West I can tell you that it's no guarantee of the credibility of the study.
    Ya, i said as much in previous post. I admit I was jabbing a bit with the empirical evidence part of that post, b/c a)i think empirical has been used like 40 times in this thread and I wondered if maybe there was some empirical evidence somewhere that i didn't know about, but didn't rly wonder dat b/c der rnt nun lolololol. But ya, the peer-review part was just b/c journals usually don't publish esoteric-mystical garbage(at least that I've read) so it'd be easier 2 understand rather than having people try to explain it with false or bad analogies and suuuuch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    It's whining and disengenous to incessantly request evidence knowing full well it doesn't exist and might only exist in the future.

    I'm not trying to spritz it with lavender. I will say to anyone that socionics lacks evidence.

    However it's disingenuous to keep asking for evidence when others have said that decent evidence doesn't exist.

    1. Ask for evidence
    2. Told it doesn't exist and will exist perhaps in the future
    3. Ask for evidence again and again even after being told that it doesn't exist yet.

    Is this not simply the act of a lunatic or a fraud? The answer to the first question has been conclusively given, yet over and over again the question is asked as if the answer has never been given. Such actions are without merit and character. It's simply disingenuous and dishonest.
    me: the emperor has no clothes
    you: of course he has no clothes
    me: why are you parading him around, then?
    you: he'll have clothes one day, i am sure
    me: why doesn't he stay at home for now or at least wrap a towel around his wrinkly ass?
    you: because he'll have clothes one day
    me: but he doesn't yet, so whats with the flashing? my eyes
    you: quit your incessant whining. one day he'll have clothes.

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    You lack character and you're a whiner so socionics doesn't lack evidence even though there is no evidence.

    p.s. thinking something is true without evidence is called belief.



    Amaze.

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