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Thread: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

  1. #1
    Creepy-

    Default structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe....

    By using wave-mechanics to "split" the functions into their component aspects. We end up with a table of sixteen attributes. Aspects of the psyche are determined by the negative or positive value of these attributes.

    Attribute + -
    X1 Intuition Sensing
    X2 Logic Ethics
    X3 Statics Dynamics
    X4 Extroversion Introversion
    X5 = X1*X2 Democracy Aristocracy
    X6 = X1*X3 Judiciousness Resoluteness
    X7 = X2*X3 Cheerfulness Gravity
    X-7 = X1*X4 Carelessness Foresight
    X-6 = X2*X4 Compliance Obstinacy
    X-5 = X3*X4 Irationality Rationality
    X-4 = X1*X2*X3 taciturn narrative
    X-3 = X1*X2*X4 Positivism Negativism
    X-2 = X1*X3*X4 Tactics Strategy
    X-1 = X2*X3*X4 Constructibility emotivnost
    X0 = X1*X2*X3*X4 Process (the right ring) Result (the left ring)


    Notice there are sixteen attributes in the same way that there are sixteen personality types. Between attributes there are the same fifteen styles of communication as exhist between personalities in the socion. Some pairs conflict, energy transmission between them is difficult to impossible, and both attributes will suffer. Some pairs lie in duality and will support and increase the strengths of eachother. For still others there is illusion or instruction, one attribute increases at the expense of the other.

    By using wave mechanics again these sixteen attributes can be converted to whatever type scale you apply. Since attributes exhist dynamically to eachother personality type shifts to fit the situation. That's where we get sub-types and type masks.

    There is no such thing as absolute type because as we go through life and face different situations our jungian functions drift in strength producing sub-types. On a moment to moment basis we must interract with different parts of our enviornment or society and take on masks to facilitate communication. or to protect ourselves. Taking on a mask requies alot of energy to maintain, just how much depends on how far the mask is from your natural personality. Once the moment is over the psyche removes the mask, going back to the type-subtype that is natural.

    As in physics there is relativity in personality. A disordered personality to one person is ordered to another.

    This links to a translation of a book in Russian by Eugeny Efremov. In it he lays out the quantam-mechanics of the personality. For those who are interrested in the structure and inner workings of the psyche it's a must read.

    It can be found here

    The web-translation isn't the best, but I'm working on a better one and will post it if anyone wants...

    What really grabbed me was the way that quantam mechanics, the psyche, and society all are structured in the same way.

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    Wow, well whoever you are thank you! This is quite unexpected and helpful.

  3. #3
    Creepy-

    Default Re: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

    Hmm, interesting. I went through the list of attributes and broke them down in case it is usefull to anyone:

    X1-X4: self-explanatory
    X5: ST,NF: aristocratic; NT,SF: democratic
    X6: NJ,SP: judiciousness; SJ,NP: resoluteness
    X7: TJ,FP: cheerfulness; TP,FJ: gravity
    X-7: EN,IS: carelessness; ES,IN: forsite
    X-6: ET,IF: compliance; EF,IT: obstinancy
    X-5: EJ,IP: irrationality; EP,IJ: rationality
    X-4: NTJ,NFP,STP,SFJ: kvenstimnost; NTP,NFJ,STJ,SFP: deklatimnost
    X-3: ENT,ESF,INF,IST: positivism; ENF,EST,INT,ISF: negativism
    X-2: ENJ,ESP,INP,ISJ: tactics; ENP,ESJ,INJ,ISP: strategy
    X-1: ETJ,EFP,ITP,IFJ: constructability; ETP,EFJ,ITJ,IFP: emotivnost
    X-0: ENTJ,ENFP,ESFJ,ISTJ,ESTP,INFJ,INTP,ISFP: process;
    ENTP,ENFJ,ESFP,ISTP,ESTJ,INFP,INTJ,ISFJ: result

    So this means an INTJ demostrates:
    democratic, judicousness,cheerfulness,forsite,obstinacy,ration ality, kvenstimnost (definetely), negativism, strategy, emotivnost, and result

    A more fleshed-out explanation of what these mean might be useful.

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    Default Re: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

    What do the terms kvestimnost, deklatimnost, and emotivnost mean in English?

    Laura INTj

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    Default Re: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous

    Hmm, interesting. I went through the list of attributes and broke them down in case it is usefull to anyone:

    X1-X4: self-explanatory
    X5: ST,NF: aristocratic; NT,SF: democratic
    X6: NJ,SP: judiciousness; SJ,NP: resoluteness
    X7: TJ,FP: cheerfulness; TP,FJ: gravity
    X-7: EN,IS: carelessness; ES,IN: forsite
    X-6: ET,IF: compliance; EF,IT: obstinancy
    X-5: EJ,IP: irrationality; EP,IJ: rationality
    X-4: NTJ,NFP,STP,SFJ: kvenstimnost; NTP,NFJ,STJ,SFP: deklatimnost
    X-3: ENT,ESF,INF,IST: positivism; ENF,EST,INT,ISF: negativism
    X-2: ENJ,ESP,INP,ISJ: tactics; ENP,ESJ,INJ,ISP: strategy
    X-1: ETJ,EFP,ITP,IFJ: constructability; ETP,EFJ,ITJ,IFP: emotivnost
    X-0: ENTJ,ENFP,ESFJ,ISTJ,ESTP,INFJ,INTP,ISFP: process;
    ENTP,ENFJ,ESFP,ISTP,ESTJ,INFP,INTJ,ISFJ: result
    There are a number of errors in the list. I didn't bother to check the reason for errors, but I'm guessing you used J/P for x3 instead of the true static/dynamic division IJ+EP/EJ+IP.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    a noble effort nonetheless.

    Really though, this post couldn't have come at a better time.

  7. #7
    Creepy-

    Default Re: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    There are a number of errors in the list. I didn't bother to check the reason for errors, but I'm guessing you used J/P for x3 instead of the true static/dynamic division IJ+EP/EJ+IP.
    Sigh. You are correct, I used J/P. Where did you read about the definition of static/dynamic? I link would be nice.

    Changes:

    X6: INJ,ENP,ESJ,ISP: judicousness; ISJ,ESP,ENJ,INP: resoluteness
    X7: ITJ,ETP,IFP,EFJ: cheerfulness; ITP,ETJ,IFJ,EFP: gravity
    X-5: P: irrationality; J: rationality (okay this makes sense now)
    X-4: INTJ,ENTP,INFP,ENFJ,ISTP,ESTJ,ISFJ,ESFP: kvenstimnost;
    INTP,ENTJ,INFJ,ENFP,ISTJ,ESTP,ISFP,ESFJ: deklatimnost
    X-2: NP,SJ,: tactics; NJ,SP: strategy
    X-1: TP,FJ: constructability; TJ,FP: emotivnost
    X-0: ENTP,ENFJ,ESFP,ISTJ,ESTJ,INFJ,INTP,ISFP: process;
    ENTJ,ENFP,ESFJ,ISTP,ESTP,INFP,INTJ,ISFJ: result

  8. #8
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    Note X6 can be written as

    alpha, delta: judiciousness; beta, gamma: resoluteness

    X7 can be written as

    alpha, beta: cheerfulness; gamma, delta: gravity

    X-4 is the 2 rings of benificence

    X-0 is the 2 rings of supervision

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Yeah, these reinin dichotomies are starting to seem more meaningful to me though. If you notice they have to do with first the individuals presence in a particular ring(static and dynamic) and then the qualities that certain mirror pairs bring to each quadra- like the taciturn and narrator is also represented in each quadra, just as the E/I static and dynamics are represented in each quadra. It's all quite nifty.

    But this whole thing is a bit heavy and I'm going to need the credentials on whoever developed this system.

    I have no doubt that there is an oscillating, wave character to all of this though.

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    Edited for gayness.

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    I think it would clarify the whole system much more if we just wrote what each type does in terms of communication and subconcious exchange. Like how some types collect negative energy, and how some types need to broadcast news, and how some instinctively act excited when a new idea comes around and this helps push it onto people, however if the idea fails the blame is returned to the creator and they store scorn, and then discharge it through a dual, and so forth. If we had diagrams like this, then the whole system would become mroe clear in terms of inputs and outputs, and overall flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Of course each quadra have the exact same "skeletal structure". Think of how the quadras were created....
    yes, but it also is able to say that although the types are different, there are peculiarities among these types which makes them each have a "common role" or "purpose". it enables one to delve deeper than the concept of mirror, activity, and duality, yet still talk in generalities. I'm vague, I know, but I'm no fool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    X-2: NP,SJ,: tactics; NJ,SP: strategy
    A link that explains the difference between tactics and strategy.

    http://www.alanemrich.com/PGD/PGD_Strategy.htm

    Alpha/Beta have their introverts as strategicians and extroverts as tacticians, opposite for Gamma/Delta.

    I'm trying to wrap my head around this. It seems that a game plan starts with strategy and then implements tactics in a given situation. In a way it would seem natural then that the introverts were the strategicians. But Gamma/Delta are opposite. Trying to think of an example...

    The politician as strategician for the critic's tactics...

    The politician determines the general rules of the social game (how to manipulate) and the critic uses these ground rules to formulate a plan of attack for a given social dynamic.

    Thinking out loud...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow

    I'm trying to wrap my head around this. It seems that a game plan starts with strategy and then implements tactics in a given situation. In a way it would seem natural then that the introverts were the strategicians. But Gamma/Delta are opposite. Trying to think of an example...
    Ok. I'm sorry about the harshness, but it's plain to everyone that besides being new here, you're also pretty new at socionics as well...

    It's obvious that strategy has nothing to do with being an introvert. Nevertheless there are at least three ways the concept of strategy is used in personality typing. For some, all intuitive types are strategists and all sensory types tacticians. They say this because they think that strategy = long-term, tactics = short-term.

    Some say that irrationals are tacticians and rationals are strategists.
    They say this because they think that strategy = consistent, tactics = changing.

    The two previous viewpoints are based in Ti, trying to connect certain attributes to certain names. Both these of views of tactics and strategy are reasonable. After all, tactics and strategy are just words.

    The viewpoint in this thread is deconstructive and as it happens, deeper and able to connect the meanings of S/N P/J.

    Let's look at what each of the groups does.
    NP perceives long-term trends around him but does not do work to uphold them. He adapts to them and uses the trends for momentary personal advantage. This too can be called tactics.

    SJ maintains decisions and continues them until runs into an obstacle, but even small obstacles can trigger a decision to change course of concrete action radically. Thus an SJ moves in life erratically, moving logically but getting side-tracked by trivialities. This too can be called tactics.

    NJ acts according to a long-term vision, consistently, accepting set-backs and refusing to turn course. This is easy to see to be strategic.

    SP has both the properties previously called tactical. SP reacts to each moment according to what at that moment looks best for immediate result. From the big picture view an SP moves in life changing course so often and for so small reasons that essentially stays in the same place. Or you can put it in another way. SP corrects his course so often that he ultimately stays going to the same direction. This too is strategy of sorts.

    You could also put this in terms of consistency versus inconsistency. NJ and SP are consistent and predictable. NP and SJ are inconsistent and unpredictable.




    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow

    The politician determines the general rules of the social game (how to manipulate) and the critic uses these ground rules to formulate a plan of attack for a given social dynamic.
    It's better to think that dynamics and statics play on different fields and with different rules. If we talk about a social game, it would be reasonable to talk about Feeling qualities and issues. Thus what you say about the politician is correct. But essentially the critic isn't playing a social game, except by fiat. ESFP is playing on the Fi field and INTP on the Te field. They just guard each other's back.

    -Smilex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    Ok. I'm sorry about the harshness, but it's plain to everyone that besides being new here, you're also pretty new at socionics as well...
    I've been lurking a while...

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    SP has both the properties previously called tactical. SP reacts to each moment according to what at that moment looks best for immediate result. From the big picture view an SP moves in life changing course so often and for so small reasons that essentially stays in the same place. Or you can put it in another way. SP corrects his course so often that he ultimately stays going to the same direction. This too is strategy of sorts.
    You have to admit though at face value the SP seems to be just about the least likely stratetician...

    Overall a reasonable-sounding analysis...

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    Default Re: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    X-4 = X1*X2*X3 kvestimnost deklatimnost
    This is the taciturn - narrative, dichotomy.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

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    Default Re: structure of the socion, psyche, functions, and universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes
    There are a number of errors in the list. I didn't bother to check the reason for errors, but I'm guessing you used J/P for x3 instead of the true static/dynamic division IJ+EP/EJ+IP.
    There comes an idea to my mind: Meyers-Briggs misunderstood judging/perceiving and she thought that IJ and EP are irrational and EJ and IP are rational. Is it possible that she mixed up this with static/dynamic?

    (sorry for digging out this thread)
    "Wenn der Deutsche in einen Satz taucht, dann hat man ihn die längste Zeit gesehen, bis er auf der anderen Seite des Ozeans wieder auftaucht mit seinem Verb im Mund." - Mark Twain

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    Very interesting. Where can more information be found on this?

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    Edited for gayness.
    ENTp

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    On the main page are some infos, too.

    http://www.the16types.info/groups.php?groupsid=3
    "Wenn der Deutsche in einen Satz taucht, dann hat man ihn die längste Zeit gesehen, bis er auf der anderen Seite des Ozeans wieder auftaucht mit seinem Verb im Mund." - Mark Twain

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    Oh nevermind. I thought it might have been related to crosstype, but eh.

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