What I said is true for both J and P types.Originally Posted by FDG
Me as S type have gotten zero abstract thinking in one of the tests.
What I said is true for both J and P types.
Me as S type have gotten zero abstract thinking in one of the tests.
It totally is an LIE job. I made $1440 in three hours.Adam can't be a Se dom, c'mon, they're so much smoother than him
He also parks cars for a living during the weekend, on rainy days, such a typical LIE job (not joking here).
Idk if this intuition or just Fi: when somebody regularly puts it on the other person to be understandable to them, like w people giving shit to Bertrand for being incomprehensible, it tells me things about them. Like if they're arrogant enough to think that everything capable of being understood at all will be understood by them, then in a relationship they'll blame their partner for misunderstandings. Also it can indicate that they have an infantile expectation to be catered to and will resent when it doesn't happen.
But this chain of thought happens just underneath my conscious thought and in the moment its just like "I don't like this and I feel less positive towards the person doing it." it's not until I sit to think about it like I'm doing now that I can see where it came from.
I didn't get it, I thought you just beat them up and took their money from them, the excess was made by selling their cars.
I am totally a nerdy LIE intuitive type, although I have more Se than most LIE's. LIE's start out from a low zero, but build continuously.Now that you mention it, just like all the other Se doms, he's such a hit with the ladies
Sorry Adam, just joking here, there's no way you're a nerdy LIE N type
I don't know what it tells you about me, but when I joined the forum, betrand gave me no end of 'shit' as you put it, calling me a baseless manequin, a crowdpleaser etc, but usually with ESIs, when you respond and call the other person out, their emotions get in the way rather than seeing the clearer picture.
Anyway, for me, I don't have anything against bertrand, personally I think he could be doing with a bit of help and is in a depressive/funk stage, so when I criticize him, it's not to be mean, it's because i'm seeing the feedback as constructive, ie:
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1246236
I really do think he needs some fresh air, rather than worrying about being intellectual, or appearing to, online, of course I could be wrong but it's just my reading.
No, it's all voluntary.
I can park about 38 cars on my lawn during football games, at between $30 to $50/car, depending on the game.
I would never pay that much to see a football game (not an Se-dom), but as my IEI hairdresser pointed out, I am not in the same class as my customers.
Me and my mother in law (also LIE-Te) tried doing it once in her (big) garden during an exhibition, but the ESI police stopped us...
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
The last two policemen who pulled me over for speeding were both ESI. Weird.
I would have thought that you can do what you want on private property. Were they defending the city's exclusive claim on event parking?
It was family police, my girlfriend and her father, who said we were going to "destroy their precious garden" that they "spent so much time on"(didn't matter that with 2000 € from the parking slots we could have done everything new from scratch with some external gardeners)
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Exactly. Its an art to explain complex phenomena so that it is understandable for any noob ln the subject. This means omitting useless details and side sentences.
I don’t see what you guys are talking about. I totally understand bertrands posts and follow his reasoning easily. You have to pretend he is having a conversation with you and he is anticipating your interjections. He also uses subscripts which is probably helpful for him to not loose track of his main ideas. He also speaks with a declarative style which is typical of academia. I can read many of his homework assignments he intersperses in snippets and bits. Break it down sentence by sentence.
Having said that, he is still a pompous condescending ass who most likely had everything he ever desired in life and most likely never heard many ‘nos’ to his demands. In short, he is a lil’ spoiled bitch.
Still, I can appreciate the merit and I have to admit his grasp on these topics is in a league of his own.
Um I heart adam but he is a YUGE dork. Like basically uber dorky. You can’t see that?Now that you mention it, just like all the other Se doms, he's such a hit with the ladies
Sorry Adam, just joking here, there's no way you're a nerdy LIE N type
sorry, Ill try to get on einstein's level
anyway of course things could be better, I feel like if we actually write to the level required for laypeople to grok this stuff (in its fullness) at first glance, it will be a major breakthrough. at the same time a lot of the concepts are structural and build on a base that is lacking in the contemporary world; it requires a lot of philosophy, history, literary background to fully understand so its like trying to teach people an alien topic that on the surface looks like it should be easy but really the tradition it arises out of is a dying one. however you see guys like Peterson resurrect the tradition nobly. he's very much a Jungian yet he manages to blend contemporary science and worldview in a way that makes a lot of Jung's concepts communicable and understandable to a contemporary audience. I definitely think he knows full well personality theory in the vein of socionics, but he stays away from talking about it directly because of exactly some of the reasons that frustrate people about me on this last page. so it really does I think take an einstein level act of genius because you're really talking about shifting the paradigm in order to reconcile some fundamental divergences I don't think that can be reduced to clear writing. this reminds me of a very old post where people were talking about how unclear, as a writer, Jung was and I remember then my response was it wasn't so much his writing but the complexity of the topic itself. obviously my writing is not that great, but I don't believe its necessarily writing skills in of itself that is the main problem
a lot of posting for me just comes down to exploring ideas for its own sake, so you could say its a mix of wanting to develop things for others, but also for myself. in that sense its really not about impressing anyone or winning imaginary points, its just an enjoyable topic for discussion in of itself. so a part of I think the sloppiness is because I care, but about different things than maybe people suspect, which is to say its not about necessarily proving my points to absolutely everyone, because that's an impossible goal; a lot of it is just to be happy with getting it out there for those that do get it so we can kind of build on it or at least rule out blind alleys so as to build later, etc. in other words, it would be nice to change the world, but I didn't sit down with that goal in mind. I think a perfect written statement on Jung and socionics would amount to exactly that though, so of course such a thing is difficult
going back to making it understandable, I do think people can reduce things down to a level that makes it understandable by laypeople at first glance, but in doing so they lose what makes it special. this is precisely what MBTI is guilty of, they in a sense lost the really important nugget of Jung, in order to bring him to a wide audience. it remains an open question as to whether or not this is fatal. by this I mean it may be that a bastardization on that level means Jung never is realized as he ought to be, or whether the bastardization is itself only one step along the way, that sends out a "request" for the true Jung to stand up, etc. In the end I think the later will prove to be the case, because all the interest in mbti and its subsequent criticisms cries out for reconciliation. that such a thing is in process and not already complete is precisely why people are frustrated, so its no wonder anyone who treads that cutting edge is likewise found to be frustrating in some sense. that is in fact the entire problem at bottom... I think there's an analogy to quadral progression in here, which is you have people pushing the more superficial forms in order to generate interest, because a reduction increases its communicability and is enough to generate some attention, and then you have people coming in criticizing those forms, and others trying to improve them and others trying to act them out, etc. all of that stuff has its place, its how humanity works out its greatest collective achievements through time. to sum it up as "poorly written" or "too overcomplicated to understand" sort of fits nicely then from the point of view of differing aims
Last edited by Bertrand; 12-29-2017 at 02:47 AM.
@Bertrand, make a list of your typings of some/any members
ok, but they're just guesses, or moreover how I feel I relate to those people based on ITR "vibe"@Bertrand, make a list of your typings of some/any members
lungs: kindred/identity
deliah: beneficiary
wacey: beneficiary
idongaf: semi
squark: business
sluga: benefactor/activity
chae: contrary
adam strange: conflict
sol: dual
pookie: quasi
applejacks: mirror
i also think dual and benefactor relationships are hard to sort out
benefactor I think of "i like this person, or they like me for no reason (they don't really see my flaws)" whereas dual is like "i like this person but I see their flaws too". semi is like sometimes I don't even like this person. and activity is like this person is really awesome but hard to keep up with, and occasionally exhibits some weaknesses that aren't too big a deal. i think its possible to mix all 3 up easily, because it goes to what is you like/what bothers you, how often, etc. its hard to sort those 4 relations out not being in person because I think it would become clear quicker because you'd see what exactly about them (like where is the difference: is the block different or is an entirely different valued function). the bottom line is all 4 are attractive but have drawbacks but its the specific dynamic that is hard to pinpoint. but basically i would say they're all characterized by a positive relation, the devil is just in the details
business I think of a lot like mirage, which is to say there are things you like, but it relies on actively maintaining boundaries, it will go away in close distance
conflict is like the above except it doesn't just go away it gets worse and worse, actively maintaining boundaries doesn't so much maintain a positive impression as it is all you can do to keep the peace
with lungs its like I agree with everything she says but its hard to create excitement except when we're both on the same side in a conflict, i.e.: it needs to be maintained by third parties. sort of like how with contrary gets worse with third parties, I feel me and lungs get better with third parties. otherwise we just sort of chill and don't do anything. whereas with chae I feel like I like her and respect her but sometimes she says stuff that just triggers me hard, mainly because I picture it influencing people in the wrong direction, not because she can't handle it or means anything bad. like if it was constrained to her it would be fine. I suspect we'd get along well 1 on 1 but if you looked at how I post following her it looks like I hate her, but its not true. applejacks seems like my mirror, its like if you externalized my internal anteater
i feel like everything is on a continium so the 16 ITRs are all matters of degree not hard and fast categories, its like the feelings they represent all blend into one another, there's nothing that really separates anything, rather its all a vague impression that can generalized into categories [1], but its more important to realize the general dynamics that give rise to moving relationships into or toward those boxes, than thinking of them as being fixtures of the relation. its more like the interactions between people is what puts them into those categories, but it doesn't have to be that way, so the more mature people become the more the categories become irrelevant and useless in terms of locating one another. i.e.: pookie seems like a mature individual such that its very hard to attribute the standard quasi dynamic to him. its sort of like the ITRs take on a life of their own the more the individuals in question themselves don't act like stereotypes. in that way the more you grow the less you need ITRs precisely because in learning about what gives rise to them, i.e.: the interactions between types of TIM, the less they apply because they start to fail to capture the dynamic inasmuch as you've overcome it. I would say health/unhealth is the process where you are in that process, inasmuch as "unhealth" means all your relations start to take on the aspects of negative ITR. its why teenagers are so annoying to be around sometimes etc
[1] think of it like drawing lines around what is more a quantum probabilistic phenomenon, but for the sake of common communication we have to draw lines somewhere; the real difference between one set of dyads may cross the threshold and have different names applied, but in reality be very close to one another; which is to say the difference between ITRs can be less than those within, depending on the individuals in question. this is to say nothing more than its possible to get along more with your activator than your dual sometimes etc so it becomes a chicken or the egg problem, are my best relations dual relations? only in theory dual relations are the best, in real life they may or may not be. by definition dual relations are "the best" but it doesn't mean all your best relations will be dual relations, I guess is what I'm saying. so the question becomes how do you know someone is your dual? its a hard question to answer, because even if they relax you and there's a form of understanding between you, I think each dyad is going to understand duality a little differently, because they have different notions of "what is good for them" and I think this is where the individual duality descriptions, especially strats, start to flesh out that picture
in other words, if I were to describe what duality feels like from my perspective it would not line up with the descriptions of other types, except your dual
from my point of view duality is where the person challenges you in precisely the way you understand to be good, and supports you in the way you truly need and are not just being lazy about. in other words they do for you what you truly appreciate, and from the appreciation you want to be better, so it builds motivation to reciprocate in a way that is healthy, and in fullfilling that desire to reciprocate you naturally build your own abilities. the opposite of this is when people try to force you to build your abilities in a way that beats you down and makes you want to rebel because it seems like they're promoting evil and so capitulating would be a net loss for the world, despite how superficially they may be right about it needing to happen. in other words, duality is when there is deep understanding and appreciation for what the other person is trying to do, even if you ultimately disagree on what they're doing. the duality part comes in when its reciprocal, I feel like beneficiaries superficially resemble duality but its the lack of mutuality that separates the two. the only way to truly find out is to close the distance. thus all benefactors/beneficiaries are possible duals
if duality is a mutual and pleasant upbuilding, conflict is the opposite, where the other person inspires you to be your worst so to speak, because you want to resist on "general principle" which is like a mutual tearing down, ultimately you only hurt yourself in doing so, but it creates the illusion of it being the best course of action. in other words, they inspire you to be not all you could be, but all you ought to not be but in a way that conceals that fact. its disorienting for that reason, its like it invites you in then pulls the rug out from under you, not just from the point of view of "fighting" or not, but because it creates a lot of guilt in a bad way, and it progresses in a downward fashion that is hard on everyone involved because the fact that on some level people know they should be better but are motivated not to be is a highly destructive dynamic because it makes your responsibility apparent in the downfall which creates a double bind where its like you know you're bad but you can't see a way around it. very stressful, its the opposite of self esteem building. i feel like when people talk about building self esteem in children what theyre really trying to create is a duality dynamic. super ego quasi and contrary are all shades of conflict dynamic, which is the inverse of the duality, etc a lot of mental health I think can be attributed to these dynamics at crucial developmental periods. and now the footnote is probably bigger than the main post
a good way to discern dual/conflictor is to notice the "charge" surrounding the person: adam strange and sol seem similar to me in that I both occassionaly disagree with their assessments, but adam makes me feel like maybe typology is futile, at the same time conveying to my conscience how vital it really is, this makes me want to walk away but at the same time i'd hate myself if I did. sol i may disagree with but he always makes it seem like theres a future and hope and we can work it out at least in principle etc etc. its who is good for you in what way. at the very end of the rainbow one must come to terms with their conflictor too, but its in how you get there that differs, duals make the journey easier in the sense that they promote psychological well being in performing the mission whereas conflictors exacerbate things
sol and adam are very similar in a lot of ways and you can see them rub the different camps accordingly. sol makes me think even when he's saying something I think that is insufficient that I can at least work productively on the issue. i feel like I can trust him to react in a positive way to whatever I need to say and so that progress is hopeful and that is a very necessary condition for most people to be their best selves. on one level they're both as derp and stupid (and genuinely insightful into certain matters) but the charge is entirely different surrounding the relation. in the same way I think i'd be viewed similarly as compared to other posters. for example you see certain posters consistently egging adam on. im pretty sure we're on the opposite sides of the alpha/beta gamma/delta divide is what that is. if you've been traumatized by conflict in your life you may write your dual off pre emptively under the assumption addressing yourself to them is futile. people who have been raised in dual families have a lot of confidence in themselves for that reason and vice versa. conflict growing up as a child creates a form of learned helplessness depression and possible suicide, because they identify futility in life, rather than hope, as the truth of things. i'd be willing to bet a very large amount of depressed youth are that way for this reason alone, which is one more therapeutic aspect to typology. its also why when people say the president matters because he influences the message children receive I think they're hitting on this ground albeit sideways. hes basically a conflicting father figure who undermines the psyche of a subset of the population (note I feel this is most likely to be innately perceptible to delta, thus the characteristic delta NF "whiney" aspect to it). I remember my SLI ex saying something about trump to this exact effect even though she was no NF, this is where quadral values become apparent
i think you could analogize duality as relations of hope and conflict as relations of despair, and the therapy of Jung is to realize they are two sides to the same coin, which is what augusta explored with the dual nature of man by splitting all these aspects of life into halves. its this binary mode of assigning coordinates that Ti grids out an understanding of what is essentially an ethical intuition (the intuition whether thinking or feeling is the same picture, just rationalized differently). at the end of the day you take it all apart so you can put it back together again, returning to certain spiritual principles as "we're all one grand whole" etc and to accept our lot in that and not get hung up on differences, but to understand the sort of yin yang dynamic to personal experience as being a part of that
people could describe duality in any number of ways that is specific to their particular dyad. if you like my description and take on things though it probably speaks to similar ways of seeing things. if it is like your most basic yearning to experience something like this in these kind of words, it suggests we're duals/identicals or at least share some valued cognitive functions. I think amateur duality descriptions from the point of view of all the different types could be great. like a database of dual fantasy etc.
Last edited by Bertrand; 12-29-2017 at 05:16 AM.
?
We must be experiencing very different things indeed. I judge Adam (and anyone here) strictly by their participation in this forum, and in this forum Adam has repeatedly acted in complete denial of any wrongdoing towards me at least, but apparently towards other members as well; I consider that a bullish behaviour.
I was very tempted to put him down as conflict intertype, but hesitated.
Alright, still, how do you explain that sometimes all I eat are Cheese Taquitos from 7-11 and that physical exercise, pushing my limits, is the only thing that keeps me sane. If SEI are like that, then there you go. To much Si feels like im strung out on heroine, wasting away into oblivion.
I'm not entirely sure about you, Wacey. I did consider you could be Sei - Si maybe, but i don't think i put much into this 'fat sei' thing, i've known very slim SEIs
What prompted me to SEI for you was what i see you frequently do: you mediate between people, in the field of relations (like how people behave towards each other etc). I've seen you several times do this with Adam at least
I think the food issue is actually very central and extremely telling. I just spent the past year with a strong Si type, why did I not thrive? Why was each trip to a new exotic restaurant almost pure torture, where I wanted to gouge my eyes out from the " i don't CARE factor"? I don't know, if I'm SEI I'm a pretty crud one.
@wacey: i'm more curious as to why you do this mediation thing. is it like a need to help or smth,bcoz to me it does seem like i dunno unnecessary (?)
I don't know? I don't even think I'm doing much, I don't really care for the outcome.
Also, I was a Crisis Line Volunteer for several years, it kind of comes second nature : paraphrase, reflect, validate, active listen, explore options, mmhms. Fe is big in my world, every member of my family is some Fe valuing type (6 brothers and parents). My own Mother is SEI, no doubt about that. I was singled out a lot of the time for my negative Fe. To the point I was kicked out of my house and given to the foster care system.
I wouldn't say I'm a mediator in all areas, either. The other day I yelled at some guy for being an entitled snot to my boss. Like actual yelling.
With Adam, I don't know...you guys seem to make more of it than I do.
fwiw i didn't see @wacey trying to mediate in the sense of making ppl kiss & make up. more like providing information that he saw going unnoticed for the purpose of sharing insight w/ adam.
its such a small and easy thing for me to do. my give a shit factor is basically above hovering above zero these days. i as just got laid off from my job, which i loved, because my fetal alcohol syndrome boss has a baby momma, and a bitch cunt SUPREME mother in law who worked him to death and he spazzed (again) getting himself arrested whilst on probabtion for pulling the same stunt in the summer. i work to the bone for them and take days with out pay and gas up the truck to keep the gravy train a rolling.... like i watched buddy OD on meth and fentanyl in the spring time and every day am plagued, haunted by visions of the past 25 years...at this point my give a shit quotiant is all used up.
telling adam, in compassionate ways, is literally less than any skin on my back and at this point i have NOTHING to loose by doing so.
we are stepping one foot into the ground everyday and you've got some Rusky telling me only the humanist bleeds compassion and here i am giving my only warm hat away to the crying chick cross legged on the cold concrete on christmas morning before i go and make peanuts for people one step up from trailer trash.
so yeah, call that mediation and paint me SEI because at this age and stage, does it really matter?
It doesn't! Fuck it.
I'm going to take a break for a bit. I'll come back.
@Bertrand wow we're semi
What's your type btw??
Good luck, wacey.
I'm going to take a break for a bit. I'll come back.
See you then.
What you think you saw hardly matters. And assuming things about me based on that is rather silly -- it'd be like me assuming that you're saying what you are now because you like her and were upset, but only now became brave enough to say anything.
The reason I didn't mention any names or say who did what when in my post is that it's the idea and the circumstances that are important NOT personal feelings or specific people. This isn't about personal antagonisms (I currently have none btw) but about communication and writing, so let's keep it to that, and not try to turn it into anything else. The important thing to get from my post is that the reader shares responsibility for communication with the writer. My examples were to show how I was taking ALL the responsibility for the miscommunication on myself, and shouldn't have.
Considering you are assuming it's a language barrier when clearly it couldn't be - I could understand, and then going on with continual assumptions of your own, perhaps you could read your post to yourself.
No need to respond, I can't be bothered with silly back and forth, but cool, all the best. That's me being polite lol - internet 'debates' are a waste of time for me. Have a good new year.
Considering that my examples were in regards to people not understanding me, whether or not you understand someone else has exactly zero bearing on anything. Also, you don't have the whole picture and don't know what I'm referring to or why. I left everything vague BECAUSE I didn't want to talk about specific circumstances or people. All I wanted to talk about was what I learned from an experience. (An experience you were not present for and have no knowledge of btw)
Nice. Throw in a jab at me and then say, "No need to respond, I can't be bothered" Dude, grow some balls. If you're going to say something, take responsibility for it. And if you don't want a "silly back and forth" then don't throw the first punch, eh?
I thought you would reply. My own attitude with stuff like this, is that it's like some weird debate with a creepy partner or something, i'll leave it to you to get your kicks like that on the internet. I've put you on ignore. Ciao
"Creepy partner" "weird debate" . . . insult, then hide. Yes, I see your attitude.I thought you would reply. My own attitude with stuff like this, is that it's like some weird debate with a creepy partner or something, i'll leave it to you to get your kicks like that on the internet. I've put you on ignore. Ciao
its okay join the ignore club
I'm not painting you Sei, i had a hunch and was open to discussing it with you when you asked me directly, which i didn't have to do since i see people here typing others in less than that - a list would suffice.
Type me I’m bored lmao
･ﾟ*✧ 𝓘 𝓌𝒾𝓁𝓁 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒶𝒸𝒸𝑒𝓅𝓉 𝒶 𝓁𝒾𝒻𝑒 𝓘 𝒹𝑜 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝒹𝑒𝓈𝑒𝓇𝓋𝑒 ✧*:･ﾟ
SEE!
http://www.facade.com/tarot/personal...tes&Reverse=on
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