How to find/recognize ENFjs (EIEs): what are they like?

[WVBRY]

Im wondering what ENFjs are like, since I dont think I know any. If you do, how would you describe them, like what are their traits, their behaviors, etc? Are they really that controlling of everything? Or is that just a stereotype?

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

I know 3.

Ex-roomate
Grandmother
Second cousin (also known as Aunt)


The ex-roomate and grandmother ARE controlling. They expect everyone to be able to do things at their pace, and if you don't, you have something wrong with you, or, have wronged them in some twisted way.

All three are neat freaks, the Aunt being the least neat-freakish.

They are extremely emotional and are not afraid to show it AT ALL.
(which makes me uncomfortable)

They all like to keep busy and keep moving, but complain that they have too much on their plate.

They make themselves out to be the victim's at times. But, I'm mainly speaking of the ex-roomate on the victim thing, heh.

They arn't afraid to tell you whats up, whether it is pleasant or not.

They are dramatic at times, Aunt is less so, but that might just be because she has 3 little boys around all the time and has had enough drama with them being so sick a while ago.


Ummmmm, thats all I can think of right now.







edit: Oh, this might be a coincidence, but all 3 LOVE the beach and always keep themselves nice and tan.

[Expat]

Im wondering what ENFjs are like, since I dont think I know any. If you do, how would you describe them, like what are their traits, their behaviors, etc? Are they really that controlling of everything? Or is that just a stereotype?

EJs often appear controlling, it's part of the temperament.

ENFjs usually are charming people who enjoy spending time talking to others. They are very concerned about how others see them and have a salesman/politician quality in that respect. They have little patience for solitary and detailed work that demands long focused concentration. They prefer to present the "big-picture-vision thingy" and leave details to others. They also tend to give little importance to details and concentrate on the impression they make. However, they appear to be much more knowleadgeable than they really are at a first moment.

They are also very concerned about dressing well and looking good generally.

[FDG]

Something I noticed with 2 ENFj girls is that depending on their mood they can be extremely complimentary of every trait of your, or absolutely disimissing and critical of everything you do. Though, if somebody else brings up a negative evalutation of your charatchter, they are going to be the first to shed a positive light on the same negative trait and reframe it into a different perispective.

Also, they're much, much easier to talk with one-on-one than in groups of people, because if they are in a group they tend to harmonize the opinions and, even if they agree with you, they aren't going to declare it.

They can be extremely chatty, and you might think they're sensors at first, too. That's dominance. I guess subtypes might be different in this respect. Usually EXTREMELY sensitive to stuff, like changes in temperature of a room, sunlight, cold, and not afraid of showing their weakness.

Very organized and throught in their homework: need structure in order to learn well. But don't really give a shit about it in a social setting. Except when they're in a bad mood.

I do not have any clear guideline to spot them. They seem to have a strange brillance in the eyes: they're not deeply set on what they're looking at, but kind of show an interest that is visible on the retina. They also make rather endearing faces when speaking about anything . Bossy when in bad mood.

A charateristic ENFj expression:




Try imaging without the plastic surgery. The eyes particular I was speaking about before is visible, too.

P.S. As you can see, the references to "moods" are everywhere. If you notice the transitions, you're on the right path.

[meatburger]

There is an ENFj team leader who sits basically next to me at work. FDG's description is perfect. She chats all friggen day. She can also be a little bossy, at first there was a big drama with other team members wanting to get rid of her. She has slowly grown on a fair few people now though.

She flirts a lot with the ESTp who sits near me, who is about 20 years younger than her. She also flirts with me a little. She constantly makes sexual jokes, whilst i dont mind at all its a little bit strange for a team leader to do that. Some of the more introverted team members dont like it.

Then she will exhibit some charm, and you will get that flash of what others would find attractive about her. She kind of scares me a little with that charm because i know theres a bossy firery woman underneath lol. the ESTp and her seem to get on well, i think he loves even an older woman flirting with him and having fun and she obviously adores their rambunctous and firery conversations.

Sometimes i just want her to shut the hell up. She chats and she actually disrupts me a lot. Sometimes i wonder if she actually does any work. When i go quiet i can see her go into her shell as she cannot expend her enormous .

Anyway all that being said shes the best team leader i have ever had. She doesn't follow my stats and berate me when i have 2 minutes too long at lunch. She is positive in our team meetings and this works perfectly for me. I am performing better than ever before. Her and i seem to have an understanding. She knows i have some fire and doesn't go too far

Those two pictures FDG posted, even though she looks differerent they are uncannily similar.

[Creepy-pokeball]

All so strange thus far. Sounds like too much work =p

Anyways, one thing I noticed about the new ENFj girl is that she seems to please others too much. I'll contrast to show what I mean. When she is hosting a party or whatnot, she seems to put so much energy into making everyone is perfectly happy rather than relaxing herself. This makes someone like me (and others, Ive asked) tense because of her inability to just relaxxxxxxxxxxx. I have to use a lot of energy (with the help of my friends) to make the mood more fun and spontaneous. When about 7 of us all went to a movie, she bought popcorn for everyone. She really didnt ask if we wanted popcorn. I could tell she was a bit miffd. She spent all that money on sheer waste. No one wanted popcorn lol. I bought a small bag of starbursts and shared them with the INTj just like we always do. She didnt actually thinking of asking anyone what they preferred. I kind of felt bad for her :/

In contrast, the ESFj we all know is a far superior host. Instead of worrying about everything and making the atmosphere so anxious, she invited everyone to help in the process. For example, at the last bbq party, everyone chipped in effort into making all the food and then drank/etc together. It was far more relaxing and entertaining.

They both have something in common, though. They both are kind of clingy and always invite (multiple times mind you) anyone to stay.

This isnt a fair contrast, though. I think the ENFj has some serious issues whereas the ESFj is more healthy imo. That's all I have to offer now. Both would most likely be F subtypes btw.

[Creepy-pokeball]

His issues seem similar to the issues that the ISTj I know has. She hordes things that are completely worthless.

I wonder how different Fe and Ni subtypes are if they really do exist.

[WVBRY]

Thanks to everyone thus far for responding. Alot of info here...hmmm Ill have to read this carefully.

Keep it comin.

[JuJu]

How to recognize an ENFJ (from an ENFJ, so perhaps askew

*Glib, affable, and charming--seemingly disingenuous.
*A teacher--alternately 'visionary,' ridiculous, or annoying. Imparts "knowledge" incessently--even while socializing.
*A dramatic storyteller--many of the world's great playwrights (and probably worst melodramatists) were ENFJs. Russian Socionics cites Shakespeare and Goethe... Also, an excellent, forceful public speaker.
*A quick, terrible temper--from seemingly nowhere, flares like an atom bomb and then dissipates just as quickly.
*Shimmering eyes--lively and bespeaking great depth of character, (sometimes erroneously.)
*A Black & White Weltanschaung, ethically--things are either good or bad. An ENFJ has no tolerance for moral ambiguity.
*A seemingly arrogant (righteous?) countenace.
*Above all, forceful--for better or worse--in almost every conceivable way.

(Horrible people! hehe)

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

How to recognize an ENFJ (from an ENFJ, so perhaps askew

*Glib, affable, and charming--seemingly disingenuous.
*A teacher--alternately 'visionary,' ridiculous, or annoying. Imparts "knowledge" incessently--even while socializing.
*A dramatic storyteller--many of the world's great playwrights (and probably worst melodramatists) were ENFJs. Russian Socionics cites Shakespeare and Goethe... Also, an excellent, forceful public speaker.
*A quick, terrible temper--from seemingly nowhere, flares like an atom bomb and then dissipates just as quickly.
*Shimmering eyes--lively and bespeaking great depth of character, (sometimes erroneously.)
*A Black & White Weltanschaung, ethically--things are either good or bad. An ENFJ has no tolerance for moral ambiguity.
*A seemingly arrogant (righteous?) countenace.
*Above all, forceful--for better or worse--in almost every conceivable way.

(Horrible people! hehe)

Sounds good.

[FDG]

How to recognize an ENFJ (from an ENFJ, so perhaps askew

*Glib, affable, and charming--seemingly disingenuous.
*A teacher--alternately 'visionary,' ridiculous, or annoying. Imparts "knowledge" incessently--even while socializing.
*A dramatic storyteller--many of the world's great playwrights (and probably worst melodramatists) were ENFJs. Russian Socionics cites Shakespeare and Goethe... Also, an excellent, forceful public speaker.
*A quick, terrible temper--from seemingly nowhere, flares like an atom bomb and then dissipates just as quickly.
*Shimmering eyes--lively and bespeaking great depth of character, (sometimes erroneously.)
*A Black & White Weltanschaung, ethically--things are either good or bad. An ENFJ has no tolerance for moral ambiguity.
*A seemingly arrogant (righteous?) countenace.
*Above all, forceful--for better or worse--in almost every conceivable way.

(Horrible people! hehe)

That's what I described! The temper is especially funny to watch.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Tell me about the temper, please.

[Slacker]

It describes my ENFj dad perfectly too.

[Jimbean]

A lot has been said so far, but let me add a couple more things based on my experience.

I have had a few ENFj acquaintances and have two ENFj ex-girlfriends.

They can be picky eaters. There are certain foods they really like, and can get into the routine of eating those things. If food does not look right to them, they will not eat very much of it.

They can be and act smart, but they also can lack potency in their actions, this can cause them to be clumsy.

Both of my ENFj exes were selfless to a fault. I wanted to get each of them to be more selfish, to think for themselves more. Does any one have any advice on how to get an ENFj to not be so selfless?

[MrCrumbles]

Both my mother and her mother (my grandmother) are ENFJs. They're excellent storytellers and are usually the center of the conversation. On a more negative note, one thing my grandmother will do is act like she agrees with everything I'm saying in a very convincing way, and then turn around and tell my mother the complete opposite. Sometimes I really don't know where I stand with her, it seems as an ENFJ she is more concerned with having a harmonious conversation than communicating a disagreement. As an INTJ this bothers me because I expect people to be logical, straightforward, and honest (a bit naive, I know). But I love them both a great deal and they've helped me out of many a jam. Bottom line, when the chips are down you really want an ENFJ in your corner.

[mikemex]

My knowledge and intelligence come from my dad (INTj). My strong moral code and overall strict ethical life is a gift from my mom (ENFj).

She's a nice person, but I can't honestly say she's a good mother. She's the hurry type: either she's on something or is already on the way. She doesn't know what the word rest means.

We received plenty of affection from her in our childhood. However, because of this hurriedness she almost always was absent minded. It might sound curious, but we did not receive lots of emotional support from her. Both of my siblings (ENTp and ESFj) complain often about their unsolved emotional problems of childhood.

She drives me crazy. Really crazy. She's probably the only person in this world who can make me so angry.

It might be due to her irrationality. She sees everything trough the emotional window. You cannot talk to her rationally because she simply "don't get it" and turns instead to her "safe" emotional playground.

It's like:

Dad: "You owe me $60 for long distance calls, you did $25 on july, $20 on august and $15 on september".
Mom: "You know that my mom is sick and I need to call her...".
Dad: "What does that has to do with the $60 you owe me? I don't have money to pay your calls".
Mom: "(I'm a victim) I've done so much for you... I deserve to keep my money..."
Dad: "But don't you understand that I DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR YOUR CALLS?"
Mom: "I had to go to the medic... and buy...".
Dad: "Don't you listen? I DON'T HAVE MONEY TO PAY FOR YOUR CALLS!!!!!!"
Mom: "You're very cruel... (runs away)".

Thing is, house income is on the edge because my dad is retired. There was simply no money to pay for her calls.

She likes to play victim. I have a mentally ill brother who is permanently disabled. Somehow she thinks just because she helped to support the house income for two years she is relived from her obligations as a parent. She refuses to give any money to the house because "she finally deserves to use it on herself". So she works (uses her time) but doesn't share with us the product of that time.

She started a career in the university and somehow she tought everything in the house must revolve around her. None of us (me and my siblings) go to the university but she decided to go without telling anybody. She spent all of her money in her studies. For example, she bought a laptop for herself, a printer with scanner, lots of books etc.; everything while my dad didn't had enough money to fix his teeth or go to the cardiologist. If she dedicated a bit of time of her time to the house, now she dedicates nothing. So it is my dad, my sister and me who mostly keep the house like cleaning, cooking and such.

She even took a room of the house for herself, in which she spends the little time she's at home. She almost doesn't speak with us.

Overall, is like she no longer existed in the house except to make demands to us. The stereotypical feminist who demands the same rights as men but refuses to have the same obligations. She complains for example, why isn't the meal on time...

I can't understand why is she so supporting to her friends and not with us. It's remarkable her egotism around us. It goes to extremes like locking her room because "some thief may enter the house and steal her things". Notice how she doesn't care about the rest of the house.

And she's paranoid. She is always suspicious about cars parking close to our home for example...

I'm starting to belive she's mentally ill.

[Kristiina]

As an ENFj I often wonder if people like me. Now I know - no they don't. There were only two posts that made me feel good. The rest of them made me want to kill myself. I'm totally against suicide so I obviously won't really do it, but it did make me feel a whole lot worse about myself. I feel bad about living in a world where I can only be me and when I'm myself, then everyone hates my guts. As it turns out, I'm the bossy bitchy detail-oriented stupid etc. Even if I might seem friendly and smart at first sight, I'm actually the worst thing that happened to mankind.

And now I'm just being a drama queen and forcing everyone to focus their attention to me and I think that everything revolves around me. Just a typical ENFj.

[zillah]

As an ENFj I often wonder if people like me. Now I know - no they don't.

Kristiina, I know, given your type that it's somewhat pointless to try and tell you not to take it personally. But please try & bear in mind, the posts here are not criticising you. I can see you are feeling very isolated and unappreciated, which is the worst possible thing for an ENFJ, and I'm truly sorry for that. Given the cultural factors that you mentioned there are probably other extraverts around who feel the same. Maybe you could start a club for them! There are people out there who are going to accept and love you for what you are. Most of us having trouble finding enough people like that in our lives, but I realise for an ENFJ that lack must be especially tough. Hang in there.

From another forum someone wrote:

I get sad reading all the criticisms of ENFJs here... my dad is the most wonderful person you can imagine. He is 100% reliable and is always doing things for his family. I just wish he would rest more, but he is always going out and doing something for us or for his job and co-workers.

Now Kristiina please, don't read any further! There is a post I need to respond to, and it does concern an ENFJ I have some personal problems with. But that person is not you.

My knowledge and intelligence come from my dad (INTj). My strong moral code and overall strict ethical life is a gift from my mom (ENFj).

Interesting, the poster I quoted above has ENFJ father, INTJ mother.

She's a nice person, but I can't honestly say she's a good mother. She's the hurry type: either she's on something or is already on the way. She doesn't know what the word rest means.

We received plenty of affection from her in our childhood. However, because of this hurriedness she almost always was absent minded. It might sound curious, but we did not receive lots of emotional support from her. Both of my siblings (ENTp and ESFj) complain often about their unsolved emotional problems of childhood.

I found my mum just the same. I never had her full attention unless she was delivering a lecture. Any affection she gave, to me felt empty where she had not taken the time to build any emotional connection. I never felt that she cared about my needs or what was going on inside, only about appearances. As an adult, and knowing her type now, I'm better able to judge what she can and can't give me and not be as upset about it. She does the best she can, but god, as a child it was painful. A mother is supposed to be the one person in the world who's there for you unconditionally, or tries to be, but mine is emphatically conditional. Be angry and you are repulsive; be sad, pathetic (I lost count of the "just get over it"s long ago); boring, and you are contemptible.

She drives me crazy. Really crazy. She's probably the only person in this world who can make me so angry.

It might be due to her irrationality. She sees everything through the emotional window. You cannot talk to her rationally because she simply "don't get it" and turns instead to her "safe" emotional playground.

Do you think your mother is the F subtype? I think mine is. I try not to even go there now, you just cannot argue with her. No matter how unkind or unfair she has been she never apologises. The only time in my whole life that I've ever heard her say "I'm sorry" is as in, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but..." I know now that's because any criticism is so painful and scary for her that all she can do is run, run, run. And yes, there's no holding her to account on what she spends (or on anything for that matter). She needs to have her "own money".

She likes to play victim. I have a mentally ill brother who is permanently disabled. Somehow she thinks just because she helped to support the house income for two years she is relived from her obligations as a parent. She refuses to give any money to the house because "she finally deserves to use it on herself". So she works (uses her time) but doesn't share with us the product of that time.

She started a career in the university and somehow she thought everything in the house must revolve around her. None of us (me and my siblings) go to the university but she decided to go without telling anybody. She spent all of her money in her studies. For example, she bought a laptop for herself, a printer with scanner, lots of books etc.; everything while my dad didn't had enough money to fix his teeth or go to the cardiologist. If she dedicated a bit of time of her time to the house, now she dedicates nothing. So it is my dad, my sister and me who mostly keep the house like cleaning, cooking and such.

She even took a room of the house for herself, in which she spends the little time she's at home. She almost doesn't speak with us.

Overall, is like she no longer existed in the house except to make demands to us. The stereotypical feminist who demands the same rights as men but refuses to have the same obligations. She complains for example, why isn't the meal on time...

This is more extreme than my mum, but I see the same pattern. She didn't feel she should have to use "her money" for paying bills and the cupboards were overflowing with her clothes. She didn't think that she should have to come home from work and cook and do housework. She acted as though us kids were lying around with our feet up all day, rather than coming home from a full day of school just as drained and discouraged as her. And rather than sit down and talk about the problems and who could do what, she would just come home and scream at me because I'm not cooking dinner, even though she never told me to or told me what was planned to make (or even taught me how to cook... she would just shove things at me and say "get on with it" and then complain about how long it took me to figure it out or how it came out). She overtly says that we should know what she needs without her having to say anything, and can't see that that's really an irrational belief.

Overall she has this attitude about "I shouldn't have to", "Nobody appreciates me". As an adult I realise that as an ENFJ she has a basic need to feel approved of to satisfy her F. But boy, it's hard to be held up to that standard as a child. When nothing you do or say is ever good enough, why even try?

I can't understand why is she so supporting to her friends and not with us.

Mum is a completely different person with her friends than she is with me. She goes out of her way to charm them and please them, whereas with me she goes out of her way to judge, criticise and disagree. However she never has the same friends for too long. After some time her relationships tend to taper off, I think because she finds more and more things to judge and find wanting (although not to their face).

It's remarkable her egotism around us. It goes to extremes like locking her room because "some thief may enter the house and steal her things". Notice how she doesn't care about the rest of the house.

And she's paranoid. She is always suspicious about cars parking close to our home for example...

I'm starting to belive she's mentally ill.

Sounds like her irrationality is really getting out of control, that's almost what you would expect from someone with dementia.

[FDG]

some enfjs described here just sound like they have borderline personality disorder.

[Gilly]

some enfjs described here just sound like they have borderline personality disorder.

Agreed.

[Kristiina]

Zillah, thanks for the pretty intro to your post. It was sweet. Don't worry, things are not that bad. I live with my boyfriend, I have friends, I have hobbies, I read books, I watch happy shows on TV. I just feel bad about the thought that other people might barely endure me. I know everyone had flaws, but most of my personality has been listed somewhere as a flaw. People can't stand 9/10 out of ENFj traits, even the traits that they forgive in others.


zillah, Mikemex. I thought about it and I realized something... neither of you had anything to add about your INTj father. And that's as important as both of you having bitchy ENFj mothers.

There is one thing that I have realized about myself - I try to take power over things! It's what I naturally do. When I have no restrictions, I am more likely to be opinionated and express it, I'm more likely to enforce my own desires, my own likes and dislikes. Usually I seriously tune it down. I try to make sure that I don't force my INFj friend into anything and that I don't take advantage of my INTp boyfriend (we live together).

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

Irrelevant part: I'm not sure if it's because I'm Ni-subtype, but I do housework. I try to be self-sacrificing, but I end up acting like a martyr. I can spend hours cleaning alone, making sure that the floors are washed and the dust removed, but only as long as others acknowledge my martyrdom. I think they win here. I spend 4 hours doing physically difficult work (with the relentless EJ high-energy mode) and they have to spend 10-20 min telling me that I really have worked hard and it has made a difference and that I'm a good girl.

[Kim]

I am close with two ENFjs (one male, one female) and they are fabulous. They are dedicated to their careers and successful, but always have time when you need them. They are very level-headed. I have called both of them in times when I was an anxiety-riddled mess and they gave me what I needed: a clear take on the issue through Ni-powered wisdom, all delivered with the Fe that I needed.

They are fun to be with, have a very funny and somewhat sarcastic humor, they like people, but are not as fuzzy about them as I am, which I like. One of them is a social worker and perfect for the kinds of positions she has had.

The absolute only thing I can think of that annoys me is that they can be opinionated and that they tend to give advice when I just want to vent. But in critical situations they know what I need and I can always say that I don't want that sort of feedback and it's all good. And I know I can call day and night when I need to.

I really like being around ENFjs because they seem to balance me out somewhat without making me feel like a pathetic scatterbrained chaos queen. They take people as they are and are always very polite and attentive.

So I think they are great.

[FDG]

My experience with ENFjs has mostly been similar to Kim's, with one exception.

[Gilly]

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

wth? okay, INxj's are not the lilly livered pantywaists that people like to make them out to be. Not all of them are anyway, or even most of them. arrgh!!

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=49

Exhibit A of your typical socially capable, physically active (perhaps moreso than most), and mentally healthy INTj.

[Kristiina]

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

wth? okay, INxj's are not the lilly livered pantywaists that people like to make them out to be. Not all of them are anyway, or even most of them. arrgh!!

They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.

[FDG]

I can somewhat imagine if my bf was INTj. When it comes to a romantic relationship, keep the Se-PoLRs away from me! They are willing to give you all the power you want in exchange for one kiss. That's the worst thing ever. It's like offering gold on a silver plate. Just take it, no strings attaches. At first, the ENFj mother probably tried not to take advantage of the weak husband, but how long can anyone keep it up? Especially with the INTj willing to play dead and roll over. Like really. If there were a 100 gold coins on the table with someone saying, "please take it, I want you to take it" and you know you shouldn't take it, because it will lead you to the dark side, how long will it be until the gold is gone?

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

wth? okay, INxj's are not the lilly livered pantywaists that people like to make them out to be. Not all of them are anyway, or even most of them. arrgh!!

They are not the kind of people who will tell me what I have to do. I won't use the word pussy, but I will say that INTj isn't enough of a man to tame me. (take it as you want. I'm just saying that INTjs are the "victim"-turn-off. I think I ALMOST dated two INTjs. I get hives when I hear the words, "you decide." Brrrr.

What, lol. What's the problem if you have to decide something? Like if there are many options? 99 percent of girls want guys to decide but complain endlessly if the guy decides something they don't want to do

[Kristiina]

I think what you're talking about Kristiina is a result of low self-confidence, and is not limited by type. INTjs may sometimes have a "problem" with forcing their ways and opinions on other people, but they are not spineless, or weak-willed, or willing to just roll over and play dead not imo/e. Ijs imo are of the most stubborn types. The INxjs may not be outwardly forceful or demanding, but their inner fortitude can be something to be reckoned with.

So it is an urban legend that INFjs/ENFps think that every person is an individual. Maybe I am bossy, but I think you're being arrogant to assume that me being bossy is a result of defected development (because, by Gods, I SHOULD be like you and I'm not, so obviously something went wrong, right?).

Compared to me, INTjs are "spineless, or weak-willed, or willing to just roll over and play dead". They might not seem that way to you, but your dual is not ISTj.

[Kristiina]

I think what you're talking about Kristiina is a result of low self-confidence, and is not limited by type. INTjs may sometimes have a "problem" with forcing their ways and opinions on other people, but they are not spineless, or weak-willed, or willing to just roll over and play dead not imo/e. Ijs imo are of the most stubborn types. The INxjs may not be outwardly forceful or demanding, but their inner fortitude can be something to be reckoned with.

So it is an urban legend that INFjs/ENFps think that every person is an individual. Maybe I am bossy, but I think you're being arrogant to assume that me being bossy is a result of defected development (because, by Gods, I SHOULD be like you and I'm not, so obviously something went wrong, right?).

Compared to me, INTjs are "spineless, or weak-willed, or willing to just roll over and play dead". They might not seem that way to you, but your dual is not ISTj.

Of course every person is an individual! That's why it's so flipping irritating when you say these kinds of things about all INTjs. When I say "may sometimes," "of the most" and "may not" the 'may' and the 'of the' show by their implicit meaning that I am NOT saying every single person of this type is like this.

I never assumed you being bossy was defected development?? Where did you get that idea? Nor did I say that you should be like me. I said that you were making assumptions that don't hold water and are a result of something other than a Se polr, namely low self-confidence.

Compared to me, you are spineless and weak-willed, and I'm an INFj! But no, my dual is not an ISTj

I made a premature logical addition that low self-confidence is a product of defected development. Everyone has their own skills, so they have different reasons to have a high self-confidence. If a person has a low self-confidence, s/he wasn't encouraged enough. That's one of my personal beliefs, not general knowledge. Sorry about that.

But I still protest against the idea that there is something wrong with me if I am the way that I am, i.e. If I'm bossy or opinionated or assertive (the opposite of INTj), I must have a real defined flaw (low self-confidence). I don't think that INTjs are strong willed/opinionated/assertive/bossy, so I must be abnormal. In reality, this just makes me different from you. You might SAY that every person is an individual, but you act as if individuals that are different from you are somehow worse.

[zillah]

The INTj father is guilty for not being able to keep the ENFj under control. Of course the ENFj is also to blame, but if it had been an ISTj, she would never have been given such control over the entire household.

I'm afraid my father is ISTJ, but still she was utterly convinced of her own rightness. In her mind she was "carrying us all on her backs". In reality she did nothing but carp and criticise ("helping" us be "perfect") so everybody just wanted to keep away from her. I totally hated her by the time I was a teenager and my dad ended up leaving her for somebody else. (So much for duality. ) My brother gets on with her better but even he found her oppressively controlling at times.

It's interesting that you said that though, about the ISTJ stopping too much control, because now as an adult I'm finding that our relationship is OK pretty much to the extent that I either let things that she says to me slide (they are her problem, not mine) or if it really bothers me, to confront her about it.

E.g. she used to sneer at me and speak to me in a contemptuous tone, when I confronted her she made a huge self righteous scene ("I just want you to think about how hard I am working to keep things together" etc) but she has actually stopped, which is a huge relief. She wasn't aware she was doing it of course, but it really cuts to have your own mother treat you as if you are not even worthy of polite speech. Anyway since then that tone of voice has stopped and she is perhaps a bit more respectful to me. I guess it really is up to me to be the rational one and keep her in line if necessary.

my mom is ENFj... and is nothing like what mikemex and zillah have described their moms to be like. my mom believes in me and would do anything thing for me and my brothers. she is extremely self-sacrificing and undemanding... but nothing of a pushover. she has always stressed high moral standards, yet she is very understanding and liberal at the same time.

of course she is my mom and has no faults in my eyes. but i compare her to other moms, and i find them to be nowhere near as patient, unselfish, loving, or cool, for that matter, as my mom. i know this sounds over-the-top, but it is honestly true!

I'm really happy for you fever! Each type has its own continuum of positive to negative expressions; I wish my mum was like the above, I can see the potential for it, but she tends more to the negative side. She is self sacrificing, but with definite expectations about what she's owed in return. She gives what suits her rather than me, and has limited interest in my preferences. She wants sympathy for her own difficulties but expects everyone else to "get over it" and "get on with it". She has high standards, but without much understanding so it often comes out as self righteousness.

An ENFJ who has not developed their Intuition, may not be able to see possibilities, and will judge things too quickly based on established value systems or social rules, without really understanding the current situation.

That's my mum.

I make no claim to being a perfect mother myself, but by no means do I feel I have the right to pressure a child into being who I've decided they should be (which doesn't work anyway). I have no right to edit the emotions of a child and expect them to make "unacceptable" feelings disappear. At no point do I believe that being ladylike and proper should occur even at the expense of a child's soul. I hope I never give my child the message that his true self is an unwelcome guest in my heart and my home. Because that is the message I got from my mother every day of my childhood.

I read a novel recently called The Third Child by Marge Piercy. The main character's mother treats her very much as mine did, as an uncouth embarassment who would be much better off leaving all decisions to her mother. She is just as cold and judgemental to her daughter as mine was to me. It was interesting to see this in a fictional story.

I think you are making a foolish mistake. I explained to you previously that the people you mix with in college, whether friends or simply acquaintances, form others' judgement of you as well as your own accomplishments or lack of them. The young man you were dining with in our kitchen is obviously not of your kind. People seeing him with you would always notice, not favourably, and wonder why you had resorted to someone so different from yourself.

I ask you to reconsider your contact with this young man. No matter how innocuous he may appear to you, he may not appear so to others. A person may appeal because they are exotic, the very reason that a companion may prove to be completely unsuitable. Your father has expressed his concern over your associations at college. We both feel this connection would be quite damaging. He asked me to convey to you his desire that you stop seeing this man at once.

I've had emails from my mum with just this sort of tone. She also hated my first boyfriend (his family is blue collar, his father a house painter). He was a bit flaky but gave me praise and affection, which I desperately needed - it even helped with my studies, since I was more satisfied emotionally and more able to focus. But she was delighted when we broke up, and when we got back together she told me in a very sombre tone that she felt I was making a big mistake.

Now this is probably not very nice of me to ask but, zillah and mikemex, do your fathers share the housework with your working mothers? I know fatigue from work can turn one foul-tempered. Don't need a mom to show it to me as I used to see this from my dad all the time.

No, none of us did enough around the house. Why would I have wanted to do anything for somebody who only treats me like an object in some tableau to be moved around according to what best suits appearances? If she ever ONCE had asked me nicely instead of screaming at me "You ungrateful @*&!#$, why haven't you <insert some thing she never asked me to do>, don't you ever think about anyone but yourself..."etc, then probably something would have got done.

Probably what bothered me most was that she never reevaluated. If she was doing something to me, and it resulted in an angry, sad, distant child, she figured the problem was that I was bad, and do the same thing even harder to try and "fix" me (because no way could she be wrong or need to try a different approach!) She never backed off to seek more understanding on anything. "The perfumed steamroller". She asked questions occasionally, but only to straightaway tell me I was wrong and back to the steamroller. She wanted a suppressed, compliant doll. She wasn't interested in me at all.

[Gilly]

I disagree. If people's PoLR can't be observed through this form of communication, how can any of the functions? Certain PoLRs stick out more than others do (to me). It's true that you can't see everyone's PoLR and when you can, it's generally not totally obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

Give me an example of where you see a PoLR being displayed, or a pattern that you've observed in someone on the forum that is indicative of his/her PoLR.

[zillah]

I'm curious as to why you say that? I mentioned before that she is F subtype.

She is an idealistic crusader, inconsistent, hates anything repetitive, loves abstract art, and is pretty uncoordinated and generally un-physical (and totally hopeless with technical things). None of that fits with ESFJ. She is not even mildly close to ISFJ.

[WVBRY]

An online forum about types is the least likely of all places where people will let their natural personalities show, at least to a large extent people will play they role they wanna convey since they know people can understand types.

[zillah]

not all ENFjs are like what u have described.

I'm aware of that.

is she always like this consistently?

During the period I described - yes.

[Kristiina]

Happy people do good things. ENFjs cheer people up. ENFjs are the sowers of good deeds in the world.

ENFj people will only cheer up people who are worthy of their attention.

ENFjs can't stand by when they see something very very wrong. No beta will let themselves be taunted and haunted by a possible gamma/delta who is trying to take power on beta land. It's like a little puppy dog who came and started barking at wolves and pissing in their pond and thought she'd not be noticed.

Lets keep empty smalltalk in Joy-land and lets keep beta meaningful, precise and concrete.

The funniest part though is that Joy came into the thread to support and agree with you.

Yes, but it doesn't give permission to post empty posts later.

[Elro]

Happy people do good things. ENFjs cheer people up. ENFjs are the sowers of good deeds in the world.

ENFj people will only cheer up people who are worthy of their attention.

ENFjs can't stand by when they see something very very wrong. No beta will let themselves be taunted and haunted by a possible gamma/delta who is trying to take power on beta land. It's like a little puppy dog who came and started barking at wolves and pissing in their pond and thought she'd not be noticed.

Lets keep empty smalltalk in Joy-land and lets keep beta meaningful, precise and concrete.

The funniest part though is that Joy came into the thread to support and agree with you.

Yes, but it doesn't give permission to post empty posts later.

Because after all, Beta would never, ever dream of going off-topic.

(Elro shoots a spitwad at Kriistina)

[mustachio]

personally, i know two EIE and there really are thoughtful people. they can sometimes be a bit reclusive or act weird but i noticed that it's mostly in order to avoid individuals they dislike. it took me some time to understand since i don't operate in this fashion. but since they're such nice and polite people they don't want to spread negativity themselves. my sister is EIE and she is prolly amongst the strongest people i know. not that they're necessarily physically strong but morally strong. and in the good sense of the word. like some people are just uptight or hypocrites. EIE really believes in th human heart, the goodness of people. when i see ****** and Franco as possible ENFj i kinda understand. they can be pretty stubborn about their opinions of others.

like my sis'. it's like there's a point of no return with her and if you ever cross it she'll just erase you from her life. she won't necessarily offend you if you happen to meet her somewhere but you'll still be barred anyway. they have high standards of behaviour and expect others to "submit" to these rules because in their minds, anything else is just uncivilised. she prolly wouldn't have commanded the raid of city though.

and Joy no offense but the more i visit tis site the less i believe you could possibly be ENTj. just a thought :wink: !

[Kristiina]

personally, i think it's a real good wholesome thing to express our likes and dislikes because it helps clear the air. helps us understand where everybody stands you know. yeah, it keeps us away from misunderstandings and such. i'm not a psychologist or anything so you don't have to take my word for it but letting your emotions fly can sometimes be very beneficial! :wink:

and no i'm not on drugs right now.

lol. yeah, I agree. Not much of a surprise, right? (I loved your other post too.)

[Kristiina]

Im wondering what ENFjs are like, since I dont think I know any. If you do, how would you describe them, like what are their traits, their behaviors, etc? Are they really that controlling of everything? Or is that just a stereotype?

-----------------------------
not my tread. back on topic.

[Joy]

Im wondering what ENFjs are like, since I dont think I know any. If you do, how would you describe them, like what are their traits, their behaviors, etc? Are they really that controlling of everything? Or is that just a stereotype?

-----------------------------
not my tread. back on topic.

Great idea.

To answer the question... Hmmmmm... let me think about my recent interactions with ENFjs....

[Joy]

I would tend to think that this is a good description:

The Inspector is good at scheduling arrangements and actions for the nearest future, thinking over the details in advance. Such a concrete program of actions is exactly what The Mentor needs, who is 'sinking in doubts'. The Inspector's strict logic of facts leaves no space for exaggerations and conjectures. His cold realism calms down his restless dual, who likes The Inspector's love for stability and order in everything. The Mentor finds him a helper, support and 'good haven' in his stormy emotional life. He easily allows his partner to guide him in practical issues, although he may be obstinate in ideas. In addition, he distracts The Inspector from being too scrupulous in the details, focusing him on general rules and the final objective.

The Inspector possesses well-developed will power. He is capable of overcoming any difficulties with enviable courage and stoicism. He is capable of 'holding in hands' his dual, never allowing him to lose his heart, to lose faith for success. He can mobilize himself and others in critical situations, but in everyday life he is enduring, can wait for natural upshot, without hurrying up events. He believes in educative meaning of personal experience.

The Inspector does not trust the feelings of the others. Trying not to show it, he is sometimes courteous and agreeable in communication. But he quickly gets tired of such efforts and needs solitude, switching his attention to work. He likes a partner like The Mentor, who is capable of ardent expression of his feelings. Such behavior leaves no space for doubts. In this case The Inspector has only to watch that these feelings remain stable, and to take care of the one whom needs him so much. Feeling coldness from the side of others, he shrinks into himself, becomes inaccessible and touchy. He can keep this pain inside for a long time, and this may even result in quarrels for nothing, for reasons seemingly quite irrelevant to the real problem. The Mentor also needs emotional discharging and is quite capable of provoking quarrels.

Another weak point of The Inspector is his inability to understand hidden motivations of people's behavior. This makes him mistrustful and reticent, and sometimes too suspicious. He may blame someone for things they've never done, and changing his mind may prove to be very difficult. On the other hand, The Inspector may underestimate a possible danger, may not mention either positive or negative perspectives of development of a situation. For this reason he may be blindly careless, hoping for victory of common sense. The Inspector has difficulties with due evaluation of people's potential capabilities, new ideas or non-traditional approaches. Others may see him as being too conservative or too dogmatic. The Mentor, who foresees all of this, gives advises at the right time, helps by deeds, takes preventive actions and explains the possible outcome of all undertakings.

The Mentor is capable of emotionally influencing people, of inspiring them with his ideas. He 'calculates' in advance all the options of exiting a critical situation. He is a person with a spiritual nature and he constantly strives for self-development. This in fact saves The Inspector from falling into a rut, which is characteristic of him because of his wish to put everything in order and then to change nothing. The Mentor likes great undertakings but does not evaluate his forces. He needs The Inspector's advice on taking business actions, on economy and rationality in spending money, on the use and quality of things. He needs a person, who will share with him responsibility and help in overcoming all the difficulties he has taken upon himself. Nobody can do it as efficiently as his dual.

The Mentor sometimes lacks will power and is undemanding of others concerning fulfillment of concrete work. He willingly gives people small errands, which many of them forget to fulfill – but not The Inspector! He is demanding of himself and others. He can organize the working process and achieve results. And The Mentor, getting thus inspired by him, can fulfill a huge volume of work in a short time, and so never disappoints his demanding partner.

The Mentor's weak point is his neglect in taking care of his own health and mental rest. He is afraid of being unaesthetic; discomfort in surrounding conditions or in his own appearance really unsettles him. The Inspector undertakes the issues of material security, creates comfort, advises concerning the partner's appearance, quality of foods etc. He is a good housemaster.

In general, what this dual pair is distinguished by is a certain 'aristocracy' and isolation from others, a complicated emotional life and fidelity to the sense of duty. One more mutual requirement of these types to each other: be prudent in your actions! For them 'imprudent' means 'not one of us', for they strive to avoid any uncertainty.