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Thread: Understanding/recognising PoLR's

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    Default Understanding/recognising PoLR's

    So I was talking to Elina earlier today, and I think she managed to highlight my Fi PoLR...

    I don't even really notice it, ... it's not like a "recognisable trigger" or anything, it's just like "something missing".

    I was struggling to understand PoLR's a bit before. Like why can other people see Fi PoLR in me but not me? But it's really like I can't actually see it.

    So it makes sense to me now

    Do other people find it easy to notice their PoLR?

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    I find it easier to notice that I ignore Ti than noticing a Si PoLR.

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    My Te PoLR is extremely easy to notice. I feel like crying every time someone gives me a manual of anything or I have to follow some instructions. The same goes for your Fi PoLR Merc

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    My Te PoLR is extremely easy to notice. I feel like crying every time someone gives me a manual of anything or I have to follow some instructions. The same goes for your Fi PoLR Merc
    aww don't cry

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    So I was talking to Elina earlier today, and I think she managed to highlight my Fi PoLR...

    I don't even really notice it, ... it's not like a "recognisable trigger" or anything, it's just like "something missing".

    I was struggling to understand PoLR's a bit before. Like why can other people see Fi PoLR in me but not me? But it's really like I can't actually see it.

    So it makes sense to me now

    Do other people find it easy to notice their PoLR?
    Really? You just didn't noticed this?


    Fi as a vulnerable (4th) function (ILE and SLE)
    The individual does not normally pay attention to the nuances of interpersonal relationships; he is either overly suspicious or overly assuming of his relations with others when they are not clearly defined. More importance is given to these relations as they pertain to objective mutual benefit; entertaining one another and accomplishing mutual goals are seen as the main focus, rather than seeing the relationships as rewarding in and of themselves. The individual does not expect others to be actively aware or concerned with his own personal sentiments, and so sees little reason to be concerned with those of others, unless they have direct consequences for the individual. Statements by other persons reflecting their inner feelings are not fully registered by the individual if not accompanied by external emotional expression or actions. Suggestions that the individual may have acted unethically in the eyes of another person who has not clearly expressed disapproval are met with bafflement by the individual; those that are expressed without tact are either dismissed or reacted to aggressively.
    Expressions of deep personal sentiments are awkward for the individual, whether coming from another or himself. He does not see it as his "right" to place the burden of his true emotions on another, both because he knows how uncomfortable those of others make him (even when they are positive and genuine), and because of his own awkwardness in expressing them.
    Last edited by Aylen; 07-08-2014 at 12:38 AM. Reason: fixed

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    I think you have a crush on Elina and she makes you feel vulnerable when you're used to being the one that's in control.

    (sorry if that sounds prying but I just sense it strongly lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya
    My Te PoLR is extremely easy to notice. I feel like crying every time someone gives me a manual of anything or I have to follow some instructions.
    Can you describe that more? I understand algorithmic logic is one of the main Te things, even an alternate name for it, so this is probably what you refer to with the manual, as a manual is kind of like a set of steps, effectively an algorithm to make something work. How does this become a problem for you? What is unappealing to you about it?

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    The general theory I can understand of PolR based on extrapolation is that it's an inherent function of the ego/superego divide, whereby one sphere of information is perceived as relevant, and the other essentially makes demands, being of a nature such that they see beyond the preferred kind in some way, and thus naggingly tell you that such information needs to be considered in evaluating one's general information activity.

    With role, it seems one tends to be compliant to the superego demands. They are seen as necessary to maintaining the main disposition. The Polr is where even this breaks down.

    In the SLE or ILE, Ne and Se respectively are seen as alternate points of view on the perceptual situation. Where one sees the potential of the static situation, the other sees what needs to happen for it to be in motion. These are "opposite" in a way, yet also complementary sides. An effort must be made to render the perceptual element effective in the sphere of rationality, and already with the creative, when someone overvalues this information, one feels irritated in the sense of it merely being the sphere in which the base is explored. Thus, demands of being "reasonable" on account of Fi are often seen as unnecessary.

    Picture the irrational type as feeling excessive appeals to reason as frustrating, and thus the worst case scenario is when they experience "demands" as the superego tends to make from their lesser preferred reasoning function.
    Last edited by chemical; 07-11-2014 at 01:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    The general theory I can understand of PolR based on extrapolation is that it's an inherent function of the ego/superego divide, whereby one sphere of information is perceived as relevant, and the other essentially makes demands, being of a nature such that they see beyond the preferred kind in some way, and thus naggingly tell you that such information needs to be considered in evaluating one's general information activity.

    With role, it seems one tends to be compliant to the superego demands. They are seen as necessary to maintaining the main disposition. The Polr is where even this breaks down.

    In the SLE or ILE, Ne and Se respectively are seen as alternate points of view on the perceptual situation. Where one sees the potential of the static situation, the other sees what needs to happen for it to be in motion. These are "opposite" in a way, yet also complementary sides. An effort must be made to render the perceptual element effective in the sphere of rationality, and already with the creative, when someone overvalues this information, one feels irritated in the sense of it merely being the sphere in which the base is explored. Thus, demands of being "reasonable" on account of Fi are often seen as unnecessary.

    Picture the irrational type as feeling excessive appeals to reason as frustrating, and thus the worst case scenario is when they experience "demands" as the superego tends to make from their lesser preferred reasoning function.
    it seems like you might have had something significant to say, but i'm struggling to understand as you present it.

    even something like potential of static situation, vs what actions to take to move towards the destination, .. can make a little bit of sense, but really it's so .. abstract in a kind of way that doesn't conjure up any images.

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    It think SLEs as negativists and Se leading tend to focus on the polr and they may have a better grasp of it (that doesn't mean their own). But anyway it's a common trend on this forum to talk about a type through its polr (as if that was the main thing that shaped their identity).

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio
    it seems like you might have had something significant to say, but i'm struggling to understand as you present it.
    The basic of it is that there are two parts to understanding POLR. One is understanding that it is in the superego block, and the second is the position therein. My extrapolation above is meant to tell the reasons for these positions. that is, why does the ILE and SLE have Fi polr?

    If you are familiar with Freudian superego, it essentially can be said to impose demands and such which the ego must respond to. The ego can be presented as mediating the id and the superego. Now here, there is id and superid - I'm unfamiliar if there is a Freudian superid. But the point is that the superid seems to operate on a pleasure/energizing principle whereas the ego block constitutes the main informational work and real stuff to focus one's mental energies on.

    What happens is that the superego makes demands, and my guess is the POLR is basically where those demands are received poorly, poorly understood in their relevance, and where one always feels apt to miscalculate.

    For instance, potential energy and kinetic could be two sides of the coin, but truth be told, not all potential actualizes as motion. There is an actual something to be done there. While the ILE would see this as a demand, it is the natural demand to his base state, keeping it honest. Whereas Fi is more likely to be viewed as overbearing, again because it is the nonpreferred rational IE in the mental sphere of the ILE.

    That's the long story short: the nonpreferred IE in the category of irrational/rational opposite the base, of course in the mental sphere, becomes the stress point.

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    Last edited by Chains; 09-05-2015 at 04:48 AM.

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    I think the POLR often seems like a mental blindspot. You don't realize how weak it is because your 7th function is constantly and invisibly suppressing influences which would require you to face it directly. Even the slightest shift into an area of POLR "danger" leads to a reflexive 7th function kick. This is probably because the POLR protects your hidden agenda, without which the entire psyche would crumble from the inside out, vital energy being corrupted, followed by mental energy, kind of like an infection of the soul. You could consider the 7th (and 8th) functions as your psychic immune system, the faster and more strongly they react, the less likely you are to experience a POLR hit and a subsequent loss of hidden agenda energy.

    Being around people who naturally protect your POLR, like your mirage and dual partners, leads to a lessening of 7th function "activation".. ie it doesn't flare up as easily... your psyche gradually opens up to the outside influence, and through it, your POLR function becomes known to you, via its interaction with them. I believe this is one of, if not the only, healthy way of processing this aspect of reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    I think you have a crush on Elina and she makes you feel vulnerable when you're used to being the one that's in control.

    (sorry if that sounds prying but I just sense it strongly lol)
    That was my thought, initially. Now that you say "sense it" I was able to distinguish my thoughts from my "sensing". Things are not always what they seem though so I can't be so confident in my impression (?)since I filter it through my perception and motivations (underlying)...how I would act/respond/whatever. I have a tendency to romanticize a lot of things that others would not. It might be type related perception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Do other people find it easy to notice their PoLR?
    I find it pretty easy to ignore until it suits me. Then I can use it with relative ease. Te PoLR is really not that bad when I think about the other types I could have had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Do other people find it easy to notice their PoLR?
    I REALLY notice Si valuing in other people. Initially, I can tell that they value it and I don't form any judgment about them. If they keep going on about it, or really give off this need to be taken care of, I start to want to get away from them. And I judge them for being so focused on their comfort. I am not talking about someone with a broken leg. Just people fussing, trying to get themselves comfortable.

    Si polr example: Yesterday my foot hurt every time I took a step, pretty bad, actually. Not a blister, but some muscle inside, or something. I don't know why. But I just kept on working and walking on it. I noticed it hurt but I didn't feel like taking anything for the pain so I didn't. (Something like a migraine I will take medicine for.) Every time I got a twinge of pain, I felt annoyed that I was having to think about my foot. Probably taking an advil would have made it go away and I would have had a better afternoon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    It think SLEs as negativists and Se leading tend to focus on the polr and they may have a better grasp of it (that doesn't mean their own). But anyway it's a common trend on this forum to talk about a type through its polr (as if that was the main thing that shaped their identity).
    Yes, this part, and so much. A certain sort of symmetry worship exists around here, and it has absolutely fucked up the minus/plus system so much that I'll have to renotate everything from the ground up. A "PoLR" doesn't exist. There are two producing functions in the mental ring. The stronger of these will be the creative. Trying to find a "PoLR" is like trying to measure how much dirt is in a hole. There's no dirt in a hole. That's why it's a hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    I REALLY notice Si valuing in other people. Initially, I can tell that they value it and I don't form any judgment about them. If they keep going on about it, or really give off this need to be taken care of, I start to want to get away from them. And I judge them for being so focused on their comfort. I am not talking about someone with a broken leg. Just people fussing, trying to get themselves comfortable.

    Si polr example: Yesterday my foot hurt every time I took a step, pretty bad, actually. Not a blister, but some muscle inside, or something. I don't know why. But I just kept on working and walking on it. I noticed it hurt but I didn't feel like taking anything for the pain so I didn't. (Something like a migraine I will take medicine for.) Every time I got a twinge of pain, I felt annoyed that I was having to think about my foot. Probably taking an advil would have made it go away and I would have had a better afternoon.
    Haha I am incapacitated by most pain and it takes some effort not to be a whiner but I try not to put it on others unless I am really close to them. I feel it much stronger than I should. I was told it was low pain threshold by a doctor. I need extra pain meds usually for simple procedures. I had a doctor ask me if I was opiate dependent after a surgery because they gave me a pretty high amount and it didn't touch my pain. I hadn't taken opiates in quite awhile at the point. Maybe it is some kind of cell memory of the drugs. In a way I fear pain. I can take way more emotional pain than physical. Emotional pain can be motivating and physical can be debilitating. Of course I am talking about the serious kind.

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    Finding 1 hole and measuring its shape is easier than sifting through sifting through 7 kinds of dirt to work out which are more prominent.

    It's a consequence of the question. Most people ask loose questions 'What type am I? Which Quadra am I', these drive people down a hundred paths and they end up more confused than they began. The correct question is 'Which types can I exclude?'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woofwoofl View Post
    Yes, this part, and so much. A certain sort of symmetry worship exists around here, and it has absolutely fucked up the minus/plus system so much that I'll have to renotate everything from the ground up. A "PoLR" doesn't exist. There are two producing functions in the mental ring. The stronger of these will be the creative. Trying to find a "PoLR" is like trying to measure how much dirt is in a hole. There's no dirt in a hole. That's why it's a hole.
    Yes, thanks. Reinin even calls the 4th function the "area of problem-solving".

    It's absolutely bizarre when you get to the point that sociopathy and involuntary human experimentation get lumped under " PoLR"!

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    If the ego could talk to the super ego it might say:

    Addressing the 3rd ROLE FUNCTION aspect of the super ego: " I know, I know, I'm trying, okay, fine you do it?"

    Addressing the 4th POLR FUNCTION aspect of the super ego: "I know, I know, I KNOW, I KNOW!!! You know what? just leave me alone".

    Video representation of the socionic super-ego. In this case you decide what information element this character is representing (I would say tentatively Fi). The un-ending litany of questions is exactly what the super-ego does in an individual's psyche. How an individual's first block ego chooses to respond depends on the nature of his or her ego function, how he or she was raised, and personal virtues developed throughout one's life, for instance, coping with frustrations stemming from weak areas within one self. It is our built in "nanny", created over the course of one's life. This explains partly why it might be uncomfortable to meet a person who so closely reflects our inner super-ego, for example, our conflictors. Further, knowing that the conflict with another in the outside world is representative of the conflict that happens within ourselves is an important stage of growth. Many of the real battles are not outside ourselves, but are truly found within our own minds first. This is why the point of least resistance is in many ways our greatest teacher. A lesson shown by Ariadne, playing Cob's super ego, and Cob as his base function self.

    Last edited by wacey; 07-12-2014 at 05:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by divergentwacey View Post
    If the ego could talk to the super ego it might say:

    Addressing the 3rd ROLE FUNCTION aspect of the super ego: " I know, I know, I'm trying, okay, fine you do it?"

    Addressing the 4th POLR FUNCTION aspect of the super ego: "I know, I know, I KNOW, I KNOW!!! You know what? just leave me alone".

    Video representation of the socionic super-ego. In this case you decide what information element this character is representing (I would say tentatively Fi). The un-ending litany of questions is exactly what the super-ego does in an individual's psyche. How an individual's first block ego chooses to respond depends on the nature of his or her ego function, how he or she was raised, and personal virtues developed throughout one's life, for instance, coping with frustrations stemming from weak areas within one self. It is our built in "nanny", created over the course of one's life. This explains partly why it might be uncomfortable to meet a person who so closely reflects our inner super-ego, for example, our conflictors. Further, knowing that the conflict with another in the outside world is representative of the conflict that happens within ourselves is an important stage of growth. Many of the real battles are not outside ourselves, but are truly found within our own minds first. This is why the point of least resistance is in many ways our greatest teacher. A lesson shown by Ariadne, playing Cob's super ego, and Cob as his base function self.

    does she ever shut up? she's kind of annoying

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    Quote Originally Posted by truck View Post
    I think you have a crush on Elina and she makes you feel vulnerable when you're used to being the one that's in control.

    (sorry if that sounds prying but I just sense it strongly lol)
    I think you're full of shit. I know I'm Fi PoLR and all that. And I still think that you're off track.

    So much so that I think maybe you need a reality check

    I'm more open and talk more about people that are around noticably, than people that I am more into. It's kind of like keep your friends close and your enemies closer. But I will take things more significantly from those closer to me. That said, I will still attribute when I take things from anyone generally, it's just how I attribute them...

    I'm not someone who likes giving up control to this or that willy nilly. But sure, within some limited domain that's fine. And it's a healthy thing to even do a suspension of belief, and take things "as they are" from anothers perspective even if that goes against your own perspective. Sure, it could be seen as playing a role, or fake, or whatever. But you can only learn subjectively, .. when you learn objectively you're just painting a static picture and retaining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    I REALLY notice Si valuing in other people. Initially, I can tell that they value it and I don't form any judgment about them. If they keep going on about it, or really give off this need to be taken care of, I start to want to get away from them. And I judge them for being so focused on their comfort. I am not talking about someone with a broken leg. Just people fussing, trying to get themselves comfortable.

    Si polr example: Yesterday my foot hurt every time I took a step, pretty bad, actually. Not a blister, but some muscle inside, or something. I don't know why. But I just kept on working and walking on it. I noticed it hurt but I didn't feel like taking anything for the pain so I didn't. (Something like a migraine I will take medicine for.) Every time I got a twinge of pain, I felt annoyed that I was having to think about my foot. Probably taking an advil would have made it go away and I would have had a better afternoon.
    Sometimes heat can reduce muscle pain.

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    I have experienced that duals recognize each other’s Polrs and find them endearing.
    I have always found Ni Polr to be very cute, for example when a person does not have forethought about something and makes a little mistake when they didn’t realize it could have been prevented. I always attributed it to them being so focused on the bigger picture that they don't see the little things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca View Post
    I have experienced that duals recognize each other’s Polrs and find them endearing.
    I'm not really convinced how relevant/determinate are PoLR's for figuring out the type or if they even exist, but one thing I was always sure about myself is that I have a Te retardation. And I find it very irritating to live with, because I feel like a short bus child in lots of ways. It's particularly painful when I somehow always end up working for LSE's and then I have to put so much energy into faking Te competence and sneaking behind their backs so they don't figure out what mess I'm always making. Thank god I'm good at covering my tracks lol.

    My ex SLE boss wrote every employee a short thought for Christmas and mine was: "So endearingly confused, you can't help but fall in love with her". (fall in love wasn't meant in a romantic way). This ofc wouldn't be happening if I had a different kind of job

    I've noticed that lots of different people find Te PoLR endearing for some reason....until it makes them crazy. But yeah, to think of it, Fi PoLR is the only PoLR I find endearing (it's like a cute and hilarious retardation ). Fe PoLR, on the other hand, is super annoying.

    Edit: Ooops, I see I've replied here already lol.

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    PoLR is just the result of someone's focus on the creative function. A quick example, look at our italian prime ministers Berlusconi and Renzi, two typical ESFps, they're constantly telling different people slightly different things to appease everyone and position themselves in the most favorable political position, often contradicting themselves, because they're not really stopping and thinking that their utterings "should" be more coherent.

    In SLEs ime Fi polr manifests itself as a focus on always appearing at the top of the hierarchy and they end up pissing off everyone in the process. ILEs may do that but only in the intellectual realm, and I think they piss off people a lot less because at the end of the day they're harmless.

    IEIs often seem to follow their romantic fantasies rather than taking practical life decisions, for example an IEI friend of mine moved to Capo Verde to live in an island by the sea without considering all the practical implications of living in a second-world country and now he whines about lack of water, lack of decent food, lack of this and that etc.. I think following your dreams is great but a bit more careful planning would be great...that is how I see their Te polr. Another one decided to go squatting in London with some friends, but he had better luck and he's now an accomplished musician. SEIs I don't know, I don't meet that many except one Starbucks employee that is always making jokes when I'm in a rush and I reply very briefly and to the point, I think she hates me.

    ESIs are holographic thinkers so their Ne Polr can manifest itself in being on-off about worst case scenarios: either they imagine an incredibly large amount of completely unrealistic worst case scenarios, or they act very suddenly without considering the potential consequences of their actions. An example my girlfriend was terribly compliant to her boss for 1 year imagining that he could fire her anytime (he couldn't), then one day he suddenly went to her office, said something innocuous, and she started arguing about salary and vacation time in a really pushy way with him (that's what her colleagues told me). Another ESI friend, I was talking about potentially taking in in our cycling team a common friend who has always been really good at sports, he said "he is tall he can't be good at endurance sports", whereas it was obvious to me that there were lots of "compensating" characteristics.
    Last edited by FDG; 09-09-2014 at 10:57 AM.
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    found this in another thread. it's incomplete, would be nice to have ones on +Si/-Si and +Ni/-Ni.
    by the sound of this the same polr (Ne PoLR) on different types (ESI or LSI) features different qualities depending on its sign.

    Here are a few.

    -Fi PoLR of ILE: not noticing negative ethical markers; naive, child-like, too open and forgiving approach to other people (similar to type EII)
    +Fi PoLR of SLE: not noticing positive ethical markers; somewhat tough, vigilant, overcome to be defeated approach to other people (similar to type ESI)

    -Ne PoLR of LSI not seeing negative potential; builds plans on how to advance forward but doesn't take into account all the possibilities that could lead to ruination; "I had a perfectly reasoned out plan, why did it fail?", searches for culprits
    +Ne PoLR of ESI not seeing positive potential; doesn't recognize good prospects and advantageous circumstances for moving ahead, ends up running herself into a corner; professionally, takes up humdrum jobs that pay the bills now but hold little future potential

    +Te PoLR of IEI: doesn't notice note of what actions and productive and advantageous; doesn't build any plans or courses of action for his or her own advancement but acts on a whim.
    - Te PoLR of SEI: doesn't take note of what actions are unproductive and deleterious, or she would have kicked out her ILE boyfriend a long time ago lol.


    When you're trying to decide what kind of information gets ignored by each type of PoLR, think about what information the leading function of their conflict type specialized in. For example, +Fi of EII specializes in noting good, positive, harmonious personal sentiments, works, and attitudes in herself and in others. This is exactly the type of information that +Fi of SLE will ignore: the SLE doesn't pay any attention to his or her own inner personal emotional harmony, neither to that of others.

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    I think this is Fe polr: I get told off a lot for 'misbehaving,' for being brutally honest/rude and curt. Plus, even though I've always felt somewhat aware of emotions, I've noticed people talking about emotional situations that I am completely unaware of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    found this in another thread. it's incomplete, would be nice to have ones on +Si/-Si and +Ni/-Ni.
    by the sound of this the same polr (Ne PoLR) on different types (ESI or LSI) features different qualities depending on its sign.
    Here are a few.

    -Fi PoLR of ILE: not noticing negative ethical markers; naive, child-like, too open and forgiving approach to other people (similar to type EII)
    +Fi PoLR of SLE: not noticing positive ethical markers; somewhat tough, vigilant, overcome to be defeated approach to other people (similar to type ESI)

    -Ne PoLR of LSI not seeing negative potential; builds plans on how to advance forward but doesn't take into account all the possibilities that could lead to ruination; "I had a perfectly reasoned out plan, why did it fail?", searches for culprits
    +Ne PoLR of ESI not seeing positive potential; doesn't recognize good prospects and advantageous circumstances for moving ahead, ends up running herself into a corner; professionally, takes up humdrum jobs that pay the bills now but hold little future potential

    +Te PoLR of IEI: doesn't notice note of what actions and productive and advantageous; doesn't build any plans or courses of action for his or her own advancement but acts on a whim.
    - Te PoLR of SEI: doesn't take note of what actions are unproductive and deleterious, or she would have kicked out her ILE boyfriend a long time ago lol.


    When you're trying to decide what kind of information gets ignored by each type of PoLR, think about what information the leading function of their conflict type specialized in. For example, +Fi of EII specializes in noting good, positive, harmonious personal sentiments, works, and attitudes in herself and in others. This is exactly the type of information that +Fi of SLE will ignore: the SLE doesn't pay any attention to his or her own inner personal emotional harmony, neither to that of others.
    Thanks for posting those. The -Ne polr description completely fits the LSI that I know. He ended up incurring a huge college and medical school debt that he will have a hard time paying off. He also long-distance dated a girl of another faith for 5 years. Their personalities were incompatible, and he was dead set on not converting to her faith and vice versa. They would meet in the summer, have a huge fight after about one week of being back together, and barely speak to each other the rest of the summer, then they would go back to school and communicate hopefully over the fall/winter/spring and then meet again in the summer, then they would have a huge fight after about one week, etc, etc.

    5 YEARS.
    Last edited by Iris; 09-11-2014 at 09:08 PM.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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