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Thread: gamma Se vs beta Se

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    Default gamma Se vs beta Se

    please discuss & compare.

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    "destroy" (beta Se) vs "administer" (gamma Se)?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Yuseke Urameshi vs. Naruto Uzimake
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    The subordination of others vs self empowerment? lol.

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    constructive, back-and-forth expansion vs. destructive, under-the-table exclusion (in the broad sense). gammas are more about consolidation, betas sifting.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Beta Se, being blocked with Ti, manifests as ideological expnasion and clarity. It's primarily characterized by it's perception of meaningful factions, or points of view, with one being thought of as most correct and all others being subordinate. Betas can often search out and support a meaningful cause, or a cause that seems meaningful to them, and generally has implications that extend beyond the individual. Se/Ti types are attracted to, or can create, categorical viewpoints that are devoid of inconsistency. Betas in general tend to be very in-group/out-group oriented and often expect the in-group to follow certain rules for interaction. They tend to judge others based on ideological consistency over individual character (Ti > Fi).

    Gamma Se, being blocked with Fi, judges others based on their individual character over their behavioral concordance (Fi > Ti). To that end they tend to percieve the character of others as mostly consistent in the moment even if their judgement about the individual changes over time. The orientation for Gamma sensing types also is towards individual moral satisfaction. Since Gamma types value individuality, they are less concerned with the perceived consistency of their behavior than they are with doing what feels morally sound.
    Easy Day

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    "destroy" (beta Se) vs "administer" (gamma Se)?
    If beta destroyed everything there wouldn't be anything to pass on to gamma when the quadra progresses.

    If gamma Se is about administration then beta Se has to be about something like expansion.

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    the meme is

    beta: offense
    gamma: defence
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    gamma Se is raspberries and beta Se is more like hemlock

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    Se for a gamma would be more about literal application with purpose, IMO.
    ILI 5w6

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    Beta Se kills with a sword, Gamma Se uses poison.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    Beta Se kills with a sword, Gamma Se uses poison.
    I always thought poison was Ni, damage over time and all...

    Gamma Se kills with a club, it's effective but it leaves a mess, Beta Se kills with a machine gun, it's effective, but it leaves a mess.....

    wait

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reficulris View Post
    I always thought poison was Ni, damage over time and all...

    Gamma Se kills with a club, it's effective but it leaves a mess, Beta Se kills with a machine gun, it's effective, but it leaves a mess.....

    wait
    I'm not talking about wide-ranging values as in 'Quadra progression'. Rather of how Se (aggression; force sensing) is used by individuals in those quadras. Gamma Se is more subtle and underhand, Beta Se kind of straight and more violent/intense.

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    Beta Se is a battering ram.
    Gamma Se is a siege tower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    I'm not talking about wide-ranging values as in 'Quadra progression'. Rather of how Se (aggression; force sensing) is used by individuals in those quadras. Gamma Se is more subtle and underhand, Beta Se kind of straight and more violent/intense.
    A SEE friend told me that she believes is is important for people to like her, because that is how she will get them to do what she wants them to do. She is not power hungry, has not much of an agenda. She has a very charming style, but never in a suck-up obvious way. Very understated, smooth and natural. Her requests are offhand and light. She dislikes and dissassociates herself from crude power plays. She will walk away from situations without getting what she wants, before resorting to a power play. Recently, she got stuck on a phone call in a check out line and heard other customers judging her for being rude. That reduction in her charm level was very distressing to her, even though she will never see those people again. She is much more likely to go for power over charm with family, however, getting a little blunt, often causing fireworks with them. But usually it is a situation where she is trying to help someone, not for personal gain.

    Her Beta counterpart, my SLE friend, is much more blunt all of the time and more obviously enjoys getting people to do things. She blurts out her requests in a very straightforward way with no smile. She wants to be liked as well, but doesn't tie it to getting people to do things. Infrequently, when she is asking a really big favor, she will put on a huge fake smile and bat her eyes, knowingly being ridiculous. (My SEE would never do that.) She would not care one bit about the phone call/check out line situation that I described above , that was so upsetting to the SEE. Unlike the SEE, the SLE will hang on to a situation, and keep applying Se, 'til she gets what she wants, even if it makes her look bad. The SEE would never make herself look bad - she would just walk away.

    Of the two, the SLE is much more likely to exert her powers for the greater good. The SEE also cares about the greater good but reserves her use of Se for situations that affect her personally- she is much more individualistic in her approach to life.
    Last edited by Iris; 06-27-2014 at 05:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    I'm not talking about wide-ranging values as in 'Quadra progression'. Rather of how Se (aggression; force sensing) is used by individuals in those quadras. Gamma Se is more subtle and underhand, Beta Se kind of straight and more violent/intense.
    +1

    Me and my SLE friend have this weird competition thing going on.. I won't go into details and keep it vague because it is pretty fucking petty, but it seems to manifest with him outright trying to show how much better than me he is at everything, and I respond by constantly moving the goalposts and luring him into doing something which makes him look like an asshole so I can say to our friends "what's his problem?", and making him feel bad. He eventually appologizes and the cycle continues when he initiates it again.

    I would say Beta's seem get a lot more pleasure from these power games then I do.

    edit: I'm aware this sounds childish btw, because irl it's much more subtle. Kind of stuff you don't acknowledge out loud.
    Last edited by Ainfigur; 06-27-2014 at 05:36 PM.

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    One more addition to this subject. It is great working with my SLE friend because she will go all out on a project, whatever it is, and work with me without giving up. My SEE friend draws a line at which she will no longer exert influence which sometimes is related to energy conservation, sometimes not.

    The Beta/Gamma relationship aspect is this: As an EIE, I sometimes am disappointed that the SEE won't take on some cause or project, because I think she could be so influential for good. I am sometimes disappointed in her for what looks like a self-entered approach, but I am beginning to understand that she has a different outlook as a Gamma, and has her own way of seeing that good is done in a way that is comfortable to her. (Note to self: back off!)
    Last edited by Iris; 06-27-2014 at 07:02 PM.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


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    Lets do science,

    Betas types have Se in the same positions as Gamma has Se.

    No difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Lets do science,

    Betas types have Se in the same positions as Gamma has Se.

    No difference.
    I know a Gamma Se with a hit list and a Beta Se with a prayer list.

    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Lets do science,

    Betas types have Se in the same positions as Gamma has Se.

    No difference.
    Se blocked with Ti/Se blocked with Fi

    if you find that irrelevant, then carry on i guess

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    The OP only asks about

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Lets do science,

    Betas types have Se in the same positions as Gamma has Se.

    No difference.
    That's bad science..."Mercury rotates around the same star as the Earth, thus they have the same climate".
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's bad science..."Mercury rotates around the same star as the Earth, thus they have the same climate".
    Your 'idea' or mayhaps, 'notion' that the information element changes simply due to its position relative to other information elements is heresy.


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    the concept of IEs manifesting differently when blocked with different IEs isn't new or controversial. see +/-

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    the concept of IEs manifesting differently when blocked with different IEs isn't new or controversial. see +/-
    +- is position dependent, Se occupies same positions 4 between Beta/Gamma. So this question is a red herring unless you are describing two types discretely or quadras where the positions are changed.

    You can argue that the position changes between each type within each quadra, however the must mirror one another perfectly when discussing the quadras themselves.

    Any of these information elements are canditates to be included in the OP 'Te/Ti/Fi/Fe' but not 'Se'

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    lungs is right
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    lungs is right


    Wow owww weee wwow.

    I can see you've thought long and hard about who you want to be right in your rational and considered critique.

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post


    Wow owww weee wwow.

    I can see you've thought long and hard about who you want to be right in your rational and considered critique.
    +/- isn´t position dependant in the ego block among types of the same temperament...estps have se- esfps have se+ istjs have se- isfjs have se+ and so on and so forth
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    +/- isn´t position dependant in the ego block among types of the same temperament...estps have se- esfps have se+ istjs have se- isfjs have se+ and so on and so forth
    Can you link me up an article?

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    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleJim View Post
    Can you link me up an article?
    maybe fdg has a different or better one but a quick lazy search yields me this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    maybe fdg has a different or better one but a quick lazy search yields me this: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Victor-Gulenko
    Agreed, rebuke accepted.

    Though I worry mightily about this disclaimer from the source: 'They only describe how one Reinin dichotomy (process/result) alters the function -- one out of a possible fifteen. That's right! Just one stinking dichotomy'

    Also

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...y-of-Functions
    Last edited by InvisibleJim; 06-27-2014 at 09:15 PM.

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    the +/- sign assignments and their meanings are still a debated topic in rus. socionics community as there are alternative ways of assigning them, e.g. in the SSS sign model IEI and EIE have +Se not -Se: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...l=1#post988325

    evoking functional signs and debating their meanings is akin to wandering about in the imaginal theoretical woods, it's a topic that is way far out there even for something as speculative and conjectural as socionics.

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    Can we just talk about how se shows up differently in gamma and beta? Thanks

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    beta Se lack tact often times.

    I have tact until a certain point and then I go all "fuck it."


    that's probably one of my life mottos unfortunately...
    but it's still different than say, how a SLE or LSI would go batshit after resolving to stop caring about a situation or person.

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    Regardless of whether the nature of Se itself changes based on the functions it is 'blocked' with (which does seem to hold some potential for logical contradiction), we can agree that a person's action is the result of the interaction of their entire "type," of the particularly arrangement of their Information Metabolisms (as well as an infinite number of other factors that have nothing to do with type). So when we are examining behavior and attempting to craft a theory or explanation of the socionics factors that relate to the given action, THEN when we speak of a persons "use of Se" we are inevitably speaking of their "use of Se in the context of other functions," so in that sense, it certainly makes sense to ask "how does Se manifest itself differently in the context of the SLE arrangement of IMs vs. the SEE arrangement of IMs." [/meta]


    Now, to the actual question. SLEs can sometimes appear to be more rigid in their attempts to effect their will, especially as it pertains to people. If they are telling you to do something, or exhorting you to do something, or demanding that you do something, or convincing you to do something, they are unlikely to let up in response to how you feel or if they appear to be making you uncomfortable, etc. They only come to those things second-hand, if they have developed a personal "rule" that "one does not make others feeling uncomfortable in the course of convincing/demanding/insisting/exhorting/commanding," a rule which can be socialized into an SLE as well as it can be socialized into any human. This is because Ti is an explicit, definite function. Once it reaches a conclusion, it views that conclusion as unassailable, until someone is able to point out a flaw in the argument that led to the conclusion. And of course, if the SLE is demanding an action, the person of whom the action is being demanded has no recourse to "see" the argument that the SLE has constructed that says "I must tell this person to do this because x, y, z." Without seeing that argument and making a counterargument, the SLE is unlikely to be dissuaded without recourse to some other rule of theirs. They are unlikely to be naturally sensitive to the idea that "me pushing harder here will negatively affect how this person thinks about me for some time to come." In theory, SLEs are hardwired to expect "I will make a big stink about it right now, this other person will probably go along with what I said, or MAYBE they'll blow up at me, but unless they get REALLY intense (and I trust them), their reaction is probably not cause for me to stop what I'm doing." Of course, as with anyone, an SLE can be socialized to have some basic form of this, but it will usually be associated with some outward sign: if they start crying, back off. Another way of saying this is that the SLE is only likely to change his or her course of action in the face of a "Beta" reason: a big Fe emotional response, an Ni warning that their action will not achieve the desired outcome, Ti reasons why the action they are demanding is wrong, or (probably worst of all) a head-on collision of Se volitional strength, in which case the weaker fighter backs down (and probably feels like shit for some time, especially if it was something that was important to him/her).

    I'd write more on SEEs but I don't feel like it!
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    In theory, SLEs are hardwired to expect "I will make a big stink about it right now, this other person will probably go along with what I said, or MAYBE they'll blow up at me, but unless they get REALLY intense (and I trust them), their reaction is probably not cause for me to stop what I'm doing." Of course, as with anyone, an SLE can be socialized to have some basic form of this, but it will usually be associated with some outward sign: if they start crying, back off. Another way of saying this is that the SLE is only likely to change his or her course of action in the face of a "Beta" reason: a big Fe emotional response, an Ni warning that their action will not achieve the desired outcome, Ti reasons why the action they are demanding is wrong, or (probably worst of all) a head-on collision of Se volitional strength, in which case the weaker fighter backs down (and probably feels like shit for some time, especially if it was something that was important to him/her).
    Excellent points.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


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    Thank god for silverchris.
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    I just realised, ITT, 8 to 16 to 64 information elements interpretation dependent.

    gg socionics.

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