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Thread: Fi-dom

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    Default Fi-dom

    Aaaaaaayooooo

    I have a question: I'm trying to type a girl friend, who I suspect is a Fi-dom, but I'm not sure about it. She tested as ESI and IEI, but she sucks at taking tests.

    I'm confused whether she is ESI, EII or some strange species of IEI . All I know is she is IxFx. I have to stress that she is a very unique and weird person and nobody understands her thought proceses or motivations behind her actions. We're on friendly terms but we kinda clash and I don't get some of her emotional reactions, so I concluded she must be a Fi-dom .

    So basically I would be very grateful if you guys would write me some personal anecdotes of Fi-dom people, how they are like and how it clashes with Fe users, because I don't have a lot of RL experience with them. I'm reading about walking on eggshells etc. Are they really that much more principled and sensitive than a Fe user? Can somebody explain please

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    Aaaaaaayooooo

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    Real world experience that just happened made me think of my sister.

    Sitting in the parking lot, waiting for my friend in Home Depot, I see a monstrous child trying to forcefully throw rocks at and stomp on little lizards (they are so cute) while idiotic self-absorbed parents are just chatting away. I am watching all this and feel rage growing inside me. I can hardly contain myself. I imagine the horrible things I want to do with the parents and the child but I try to chill.

    My sister would have been out of the car and on them in two seconds without thinking twice. She will not stand by and watch any injustice in her presence. I wish I was as brave. My friend comes back to the car and I ask if he would please go kill the child and parents. He laughs and says, we'll come back and do it under the cover of dark, makes a couple other jokes and tells me to leave. I was totally conflicted on what to do.

    He seemed not to care enough to feel anything about the situation and my sister would have shamed the whole family so bad that their future generations would be bearing the shame. Of course this is an exaggeration but she would not have kept quiet in that situation but in other situations she just sits quietly and doesn't say a word. Like when her husband (he is my super-ego) and I argue. I guess she doesn't want to take sides then and I don't blame her.

    My sister is not really someone I would attribute the word weird to though. Passionate at times and a little demanding and controlling but not weird. She can get crazy if needed but mostly the peace and love on and off vegetarian who judges our choices, if the do not align with her perception of "right" behavior but only because she knows what's best for everyone.



    @InvisibleJim I see what you mean about ADHD now. Parents just stood there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    My sister is not really someone I would attribute the word weird to though. Passionate at times and a little demanding and controlling but not weird. She can get crazy if needed but mostly the peace and love on and off vegetarian who judges our choices, if the do not align with her perception of "right" behavior but only because she knows what's best for everyone.
    Aylen thanks so much for this story. Great so I had the right feeling what Fi-dom looks like (although not everybody is so strict ofc).
    And I didn't correlate being weird with Fi at all - I think Ni/Ne-doms are usually much weirder. My friend is just really odd as in difficult to type - can't even decide if she's a sensor or intiutive. I'm beginning to think she's IEI, which is not something I'm happy about

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    So basically I would be very grateful if you guys would write me some personal anecdotes of Fi-dom people, how they are like and how it clashes with Fe users, because I don't have a lot of RL experience with them. I'm reading about walking on eggshells etc. Are they really that much more principled and sensitive than a Fe user? Can somebody explain please
    The following quotes are about an EII, someone I know personally:
    "There's an incredible sense of warmth about him that everybody around him feels," says Deb VanderMolen, a former colleague. "You feel a genuine sense of acceptance in him. There's no better friend than a friend who doesn't judge."
    He is a sentimental guy who saves things. The tops of his desk and file cabinets are strewn with pine cones he's gathered from special places, with glittery foil snowflakes that tumbled out of a card from a friend. Here's a feather from his pet cockatiel."They all have meaning," he says.
    He flips open his camera phone and shows a photo of his office, stuffed from the floor up with dozens of balloons his employees sneaked in for Boss' Day last year.
    "I saved one," he says, retrieving a shriveled scrap of latex from his desk.
    You get the feeling you can tell him stuff, and he'll keep it.
    He's a University of Michigan grad, along with his mom, dad and four brothers. His son is a Michigan State grad. The amiable man flies both flags outside the front door of his Cascade home.
    You also can call the sensitive guy Ironman. He has competed in 50 triathlons, including his first Ironman at age 49, in which he swam 2.4 miles, biked 112 miles, then ran 26.2 miles. He did a second one four years later.
    His head is full of people. There was the guy with the quick temper on the brink of losing his job.
    "This guy had a really short fuse," Fogel recalls. "But he was a really good guy. He'd ignite when people were critical of him. He'd get into a lot of trouble at work because of it."
    "There were clients who, over and over again, wanted to see him," says Deb VanderMolen, who worked at Steelcase when he did and now is executive director of Kent Regional Community Coordinated Child Care (4C). "Not every counselor can build that level of trust."
    "He has a herding instinct," says his wife of 24 years. "If we're on a bike ride with family or friends, he's the one who circles back to make sure we've got everybody. He always makes sure the slowest person is OK."
    He is a nurturing guy with a wild side. Sort of wild. He loves scary roller coasters and once leaped out of an airplane. Then again, he snacks on whole grain cereal and runs with his iPod playing Celtic music.
    "He has an empathic way of communicating," says his wife. "He listens. He has the ability to put himself in other peoples' shoes."
    "It took me a while to learn it wasn't my responsibility to take on the problems of my clients," he says. "They needed to work through their difficulties, and I was there to help them. It was hard sometimes, not to carry the burdens of their problems. Sometimes, they really grabbed you."

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    I clash with Fe people often at work. SiFe (esp ESEs) tend to tell me I'm weird all the time because of my jokes or interaction style. It starts to piss me off. I think they actually suck at reading people who aren't Fe. And most of 'em are pretty damn pushy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Aylen thanks so much for this story. Great so I had the right feeling what Fi-dom looks like (although not everybody is so strict ofc).
    And I didn't correlate being weird with Fi at all - I think Ni/Ne-doms are usually much weirder. My friend is just really odd as in difficult to type - can't even decide if she's a sensor or intiutive. I'm beginning to think she's IEI, which is not something I'm happy about
    You're welcome but I cannot take credit for this because I truly just figured it out myself in an "I totally get it" moment by telling you my story about the little boy. I had a vague sense of what it meant before. I also kinda figured it out by realizing the socionics types of my exes parents today and remembering how they interacted. An SLE married to an EII for a million years. hahah I thought they hated each other and I didn't get why they stayed married. I told my ex, the night I met his parents, if he ever spoke to me the way his parents spoke to each other it was over, no discussion. He believed me 'cause he never did. I want to thank @Pookie for pointing me in the right direction, too when it comes to this stuff.

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    I have only one EII friend, who is the most angelic person of all the people I know. She wouldn't hurt a fly, never gossips, never catty, wishes all the people the best, you can just see how genuinely happy she is for other people, has kind of an inner warmth to her and is the worlds best confidant. You can tell her everything and you can be 100% sure she will never tell anyone. Really, I have never met a person of such character in my life.

    She lives by strict moral standards (doesn't drink, doesn't party, she was against premerital sex but has now when changed her mind, ,when she's in a relationship , very religious).

    She is not judgy at all - she always try to help you, even if you fucked up for the millionth time and did things that are completely against her morals. But she has a certain presence where everybody just start behaving better when she's around - like you get ashamed what a terrible person you are

    The thing where we clash is that I love her for one-on-one conversations once a week, but she is way too serious and shy for hanging out with bigger goups. She literally doesn't say a word in group situations. She has this really calm way of speaking that nobody can hear. She also never participates in more agressive jokes and is very sensitive if even the slightest joke is on her. So she's not really the first person I would call on a friday night.

    So I was wondering- what exactly it is that annoys some people about Fi so much? Does the general goody-two-shoes persona rubs people the wrong way, or they feel like the person is a kill-joy because of the uptightnes or are only judgy, moralistic Fi users, who attack you for your life decisions, the ones that are the problem? I hate hate hate preachy moralistic people (about minor things, not how it's not ok to beat animals), but I really don't get how anyone could dislike my friend (not saying that I haven't made a mean joke or two about her Victorian era persona before ). I really don't understand how people as this could be desribed as selfish (Fi=selfish is often heard argument) .

    And ofc if any Fi users wanna share what they find annoying about Fe, I would also love to know (I have a pretty good idea though )

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    I have only one EII friend, who is the most angelic person of all the people I know. She wouldn't hurt a fly, never gossips, never catty, wishes all the people the best, you can just see how genuinely happy she is for other people, has kind of an inner warmth to her and is the worlds best confidant. You can tell her everything and you can be 100% sure she will never tell anyone. Really, I have never met a person of such character in my life.

    She lives by strict moral standards (doesn't drink, doesn't party, she was against premerital sex but has now when changed her mind, ,when she's in a relationship , very religious).

    She is not judgy at all - she always try to help you, even if you fucked up for the millionth time and did things that are completely against her morals. But she has a certain presence where everybody just start behaving better when she's around - like you get ashamed what a terrible person you are

    The thing where we clash is that I love her for one-on-one conversations once a week, but she is way too serious and shy for hanging out with bigger goups. She literally doesn't say a word in group situations. She has this really calm way of speaking that nobody can hear. She also never participates in more agressive jokes and is very sensitive if even the slightest joke is on her. So she's not really the first person I would call on a friday night.
    She sounds like a really awesome person, you're lucky to know her. However, I can't help but wonder if she might be an exceptionally Fi-oriented EII. Despite having a predisposition for kindness and acceptance, I don't think most EII are quite that angelic. Perhaps she is H-EII (a Harmonizing subtype in Gulenko's DCNH system):
    Lively and visible enough; however, in comparison with the classic type description he is “suspiciously” nice. It appears that the negative features of type have no relation to the harmonizing subtype.
    Soft and delicate; although these qualities are somewhat limited by the capabilities of the type. That is, harmonizing ethics - this is truly a very ethical person. He always wants to make sure that all is well. Logicals too. But with logicals for some reason it turns out “he wanted it to be better, but it turned out as always”.
    In contrast to the Normalizing/Dominant dyad, Harmonizing and Creative are comrades with a “delicate structure of the soul”. Especially, of course, Harmonizing: sensitive, suffering, touchy, altruistic, self-sacrificing.
    Like Dominant, he is a connector, that is, he establishes necessary connections with the environment. But where Dominant does so crudely and directly, Harmonizing does so by careful manipulation (he is capable of multiple combinations of manipulation, for the purpose of making another person become well. ).
    Monitors social desirability and conforms to it. (“The gentleman is that man who calls a spade a spade, even having stepped on it in the darkness…”) This is especially true of gender stereotypes. Moreover, if Harmonizing has armed himself with a gender stereotype, then he does not simply behave in accordance with it, but brings it to the ideal. This is the Ideal Man (“I've gone to earn money for my beloved! ”) or Ideal Woman.
    For Harmonizing to do something “for himself” -- he does not really want to do it. Now, if it's for a loved one, then -- whatever you want.
    Can't stand it when anyone argues or scolds. Here again he tries to help, to fix the situation, since this very thing makes him feel badly.
    Has an idea of how he must behave, so that others will not feel badly. Evaluates those around him from the point of view of the ethics of their behavior, and seeks to educate them. Suffers greatly, if he himself has committed an act which is not irreproachable.
    Harmonizing finds it difficult to insult people “head on”, to accuse a man, even if he deserved it. Harmonizing either tries to express his displeasure and resentment delicately somehow, or he keeps silent and sulks. Even when it is already obvious that he thinks poorly of someone, he comes across something like this: “I think poorly of you, but for the sake of our good relationship, I will not say anything about it”. As a result, a “delicate hint” from harmonizing can prove to be much more offensive than a direct “hit”.

    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    So I was wondering- what exactly it is that annoys some people about Fi so much? Does the general goody-two-shoes persona rubs people the wrong way, or they feel like the person is a kill-joy because of the uptightnes or are only judgy, moralistic Fi users, who attack you for your life decisions, the ones that are the problem?
    I think a lot of people have a problem with the "I hate" or "I can't stand" or "I dislike" language of Fi-users. I also think that people (particularly Beta STs) get annoyed by the vagueness and submissiveness of Delta NFs.


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    I really don't understand how people as this could be desribed as selfish (Fi=selfish is often heard argument)
    Well, in my case, I only give a shit about my interests, i.e. the things I care about (people, activities, etc). I think this relates at least in part to the obstinate/yielding dichotomy:
    For Obstinate types, their interest fall into their "personal ("inviolable") space", which is outlined with a "personal boundary", while resources are an object to be manipulated. In the presence of an interest, their will seek suitable resources and opportunities.
    Obstinate types guard themselves from intrusions into their personal sphere of interests, while at the same time they pay no heed to intrusions on their resources. If someone tries to impose their interests on Obstinate types, thus intruding into their personal space, their reaction will be sufficiently deterring and sharp (such a reaction occurs in cases when other's interests do not become their interests).
    I'm also pretty stingy with my money and I don't like to spend it on other people. If I'm with people and I'm not having fun or not feeling comfortable, I leave, and that bothers some people.


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    And ofc if any Fi users wanna share what they find annoying about Fe, I would also love to know (I have a pretty good idea though )
    Their obnoxious enthusiasm, their senseless devotion to duty, their annoying sensitivity to the emotional atmosphere, their slavelike dependence on "good vibes", their disregard for peoples' feelings, the little circles they form at work where they laugh and tell stupid jokes, the singing and dancing, the DRAMA and the EMOTION... the list goes on.

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    Here's a handy venn diagram I use to help me relate to the self image of some delta nfs.


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    A way I can say that my sister is selfish is she wants everyone to be as peaceful and loving as she is but she has a temper as well so I tend to look at her peace as situational but in her mind she is at peace and wants everyone to be at peace too. Even when I do not want to feel at peace or happy she seems to dismiss it and tell me I really want to be happy or relaxed or whatever. I tell her, "no I really don't at this moment and when I do I will chose to." Then I start getting quotes from her from all kinds of self-help gurus and I just want to be left alone in whatever misery I find myself in.

    I don't even want her to know about it when I am dealing with something because she wants me to talk to her when I do not feel like it, so I usually call her when I am feeling all happy . That is why I keep most of my problems to myself. I don't always want a solution. When I choose to hang out with friends I just want to have fun. When she wants to hang out it feels like therapy. Sometimes I wonder if she knows what having fun feels like. I guess she has her own brand of fun though. She likes going to Christmas/holiday parties, bridal and baby showers and I will most likely just send a gift. and skip the event. She is way more social than me and still keeps in contact with childhood friends. I don't have a strong desire to maintain contact with people from childhood. She always asks me do I remember so and so and I don't. More than likely if I ran into someone, from my childhood, in public I might even hide, if I recognize them at all. I would not even know what to say.

    Edit: And all her friends are Delta.
    Last edited by Aylen; 06-18-2014 at 03:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Clearly View Post
    She sounds like a really awesome person, you're lucky to know her. However, I can't help but wonder if she might be an exceptionally Fi-oriented EII. Despite having a predisposition for kindness and acceptance, I don't think most EII are quite that angelic. Perhaps she is H-EII (a Harmonizing subtype in Gulenko's DCNH system):,
    Yeah, I'm sure she's extremely Fi oriented and I'm aware that she's not an average representative of EII's. But, she's the only Fi-dom that I hang out with, so I have no one to compare her with.

    I think a lot of people have a problem with the "I hate" or "I can't stand" or "I dislike" language of Fi-users. I also think that people (particularly Beta STs) get annoyed by the vagueness and submissiveness of Delta NFs.,
    I kinda use very strong language and can produce a lot of hatred for things too I see how this can be seen as obnoxious by milder individuals.


    Their obnoxious enthusiasm, their senseless devotion to duty, their annoying sensitivity to the emotional atmosphere, their slavelike dependence on "good vibes", their disregard for peoples' feelings, the little circles they form at work where they laugh and tell stupid jokes, the singing and dancing, the DRAMA and the EMOTION... the list goes on.
    Lol, are you sure you're not Fe-PoLR I find some overly enthusiastic, kitchy Fe-dom users (ESE's come to mind) annoying too, tbh. But I think most people have a healthy limit between friendly /upbeat and fake/sacharrine. I also think that despite being a Fe user you can also have a firm grasp on Fi and not disregard individual peoples' feelings. IEI's in particular are big on individuality and uniqueness and are quite self-centered despite their use of Fe.

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    The top 10 people I love in this world most includes the sweetest angel of an ESE. She is in the top 5 actually. My sister used to take full advantage of her. That annoyed me to no end.

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    Their obnoxious enthusiasm, the little circles they form at work where they laugh and tell stupid jokes, the singing and dancing.
    I actually associate over the top enthusiasm about everybody and everything, laughter, jokes, singing and dancing most with SEE's and some IEE's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post


    The top 10 people I love in this world most includes the sweetest angel of an ESE. She is in the top 5 actually. My sister used to take full advantage of her. That annoyed me to no end.
    Nothing against ESE's, just the excessively fake and emotional ones that I can't stand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Nothing against ESE's, just the excessively fake and emotional ones that I can't stand.
    I know.

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    The EII I had for a poetry professor this quarter had a tendency to pity people. He'd tell stories about how when he was younger he used to find magazine articles about shitty people doing shitty things in the world and then weep about them...over...and over...again and again, like some sort of addiction. The same fucking story, until he'd find another one. Or how he felt sorry for Ron Jeremy just because he's pathetic or go on and on about how the kids in his high school didn't like him...fucking christ, goddamn EIIs.

    Also, they tend to think they're right...about EVERYTHING, even when you dismantle their arguments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    Or how he felt sorry for Ron Jeremy just because he's pathetic or go on and on about how the kids in his high school didn't like him...fucking christ, goddamn EIIs.
    Interesting choice of topics. He sounds insufferable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    I kinda use very strong language and can produce a lot of hatred for things too I see how this can be seen as obnoxious by milder individuals.
    And I still think you're an Fi-ego


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Lol, are you sure you're not Fe-PoLR
    lol, I'm positive. I was talking mostly about the way logical Fe-valuers behave.


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    I actually associate over the top enthusiasm about everybody and everything, laughter, jokes, singing and dancing most with SEE's and some IEE's.
    hah, no way. Here's Jung on the introverted feeling type:
    Since it is conditioned subjectively and is only secondarily concerned with the object, it seldom appears on the surface and is generally misunderstood. It is a feeling which seems to devalue the object, and it therefore manifests itself for the most part negatively. The existence of positive feeling can be inferred only indirectly. Its aim is not to adjust itself to the object, but to subordinate it in an unconscious effort to realize the underlying images.
    The depth of this feeling can only be guessed - it can never be clearly grasped. It makes people silent and difficult of access; it shrinks back like a violet from the brute nature of the object in order to fill the depths of the subject. It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defense.
    It is principally among women that I have found the predominance of introverted feeling. 'Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand; often they hide behind a childish or banal mask, and their temperament is inclined to melancholy. They neither shine nor reveal themselves. As they are mainly guided by their subjective feelings, their true motives generally remain hidden. Their outward demeanor is harmonious and inconspicuous, giving an impression of pleasing repose, or of sympathetic response, with no desire to affect others, to impress, influence, or change them in any way.
    If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness, which may actually turn into a disregard for the comfort and well-being of others. One is distinctly aware then of the movement of feeling away from the object. With the normal type, however, this happens only when the influence of the object is too strong. The feeling of harmony, therefore, lasts only so long as the object goes its own moderate way and makes no attempt to cross the other's path. There is little effort to respond to the real emotions of the other person, which tend to be damped and rebuffed, or to put it more aptly, are 'cooled off' by a negative value judgment. Although there is a constant readiness for a peaceful and harmonious co-existence, strangers are shown no touch of amiability, no gleam of responding warmth, but are met with apparent indifference or a repelling coldness. Often they are made to feel entirely superfluousness.
    Faced with anything that might carry her away or arouse enthusiasm, this type observes a benevolent though critical neutrality, coupled with a faint trace of superiority that soon takes the wind out of the sails of a sensitive person. Any stormy emotion, however, will be struck down with murderous coldness, unless it happens to catch the woman on her unconscious side - that is, unless it hits her feelings by arousing a primordial image. In that case, she simply feels paralyzed for the moment, and this in due course invariably produces an even more obstinate resistance which will hit the other person in his most vulnerable spot. As far as possible, the relation of feeling to the object is kept to the safe middle path, where passion and its intemperateness are resolutely tabooed. Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly, and the other person has a permanent sense of being undervalued once he becomes conscious of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Nothing against ESE's, just the excessively fake and emotional ones that I can't stand.
    I wonder if you might be confusing ESE with EIE, as EIE is typically associated with "fake" and "over-the-top" emotions. Gulenko touches on this a bit:
    EIE - artificial, crafted, playacting emotions.
    ESE - natural, simple, artless emotions.

    Even though ESE is Fe-leading, I find their emotions to be very pleasant and fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Clearly View Post
    And I still think you're an Fi-ego
    I thought you might say that I'm pretty sure I have Fi as a demonstrative function though:

    A person uses this element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously. They often intentionally go against its conventional usage simply to prove a point in favor of their creative function. However, this function is used quite often in private, to produce information of its element to support their creative function when focusing on making contact with the external world.
    A person will often have just as sophisticated an understanding of this function as his or her leading function. Unlike the ignoring function it plays a major part in a person's worldview, since as the vulnerable function of one's dual it requires especially delicate attention. Thus, when a person is given information regarding the element in the demonstrative function by someone else, they will tend to take it as obvious information that is irrelevant to completely focus on. One will often use the demonstrative function to defend and further support their beliefs made in the vulnerable function.


    IEIs not uncommonly apply their cogitations to topics pertaining to morality, ethics, and relationships. They have a strong understanding of the breadth of their inner emotional responses and dispositions to others. However, they may be inclined to treat their internal ethical sentiments somewhat passively; instead they are often more concerned with the energy and emotional responses of others around them. They are more interested in the dynamism of their emotional surroundings and often are inclined to adapt their behavior or even their persona to fit the situation. - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/t....Fl6XMzNf.dpuf


    Here's Jung on the introverted feeling type
    But this is a description of FI-dom (EII, ESI), not Fi-aux (SEE, IEE). Fi manifests totally differently in different positions.

    SEEs are often highly in tune with their emotional responses towards other people, groups, or ideas, and often may be inclined to act on their emotional reactions with minimal restraint. They tend to wear their emotions on their sleeves, and leave little doubt in the minds of others as to the nature of their emotional reactions towards almost anything. Their wide range of emotional responses, though often turbulent, may carry extraordinary weight and meaning to them, and they often deeply value their friendships and connections. They often tend to seek to expand their network of associates, getting to better know and deeply connect with new acquaintances. - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/t....j2COvFUK.dpuf

    IEEs are often spontaneous and sometimes quite distractible individuals whose natural energy level leads them to be working on something or doing something most of the time ,
    IEEs frequently have a innately optimistic disposition (despite how bleak they perceive the facts of any situation to be), and often earnestly believe in the value of a process of thorough, respectful, and politically correct discussion of controversial matters, and often that through a such due process of formal exposition of viewpoints, most reasonable people will come to a consensus as to the essential facts and truth of the debate. , They may be inclined to keep track of a large network of social acquaintances with whom they feel a significant connection. Many IEEs share a common pattern in that for them mental stimulation is often interpersonal; they may extensively enjoy interacting with many different people and find a situation boring if there are no interesting people with whom to engage in conversation. - See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/t....Yn4DjIZz.dpuf


    I wonder if you might be confusing ESE with EIE, as EIE is typically associated with "fake" and "over-the-top" emotions. ,
    Idk, it's probably a matter of perspective. EIE's can be real drama queens, but they're much more interesting in general to me, so I tolerate it better . ESE's on the other hand to me often seem like overbearing pushy moms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    The EII I had for a poetry professor this quarter had a tendency to pity people. He'd tell stories about how when he was younger he used to find magazine articles about shitty people doing shitty things in the world and then weep about them...over...and over...again and again, like some sort of addiction. The same fucking story, until he'd find another one. Or how he felt sorry for Ron Jeremy just because he's pathetic or go on and on about how the kids in his high school didn't like him...fucking christ, goddamn EIIs.

    Also, they tend to think they're right...about EVERYTHING, even when you dismantle their arguments.
    Maybe he was trying to help yall with your writing
    and make you feel powerful emotions and passion
    in order to better your material.

    Or he was projecting.

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    i think lasvegasbarbie ( google it ) is EII; oh, and dostoevsky
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    i think lasvegasbarbie ( google it ) is EII; oh, and dostoevsky
    Rofl. Did you test her?

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Rofl. Did you test her?
    is "test" a euphemism for something? then yeah.
    It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarrelled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.

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    What crashes with me and Fe users is...Let's say that I have a hard to deal with brother. I'm likely to complain about how hard it is to deal with him and continue doing it for the sake of moral obligation to my relations even though at every turn and time he drives me bananas. Fe dom would say :if it stresses you out (gives you negative feeling) why do you continue to do it (self subjecting yourself to more bad experiences that cause bad feeling)." I say it's because I (the major I - the subject involved in these experiences and emotions) has a moral obligation and bond to family that produces bad feelings when I don't do the right thing and I experience infantile emotions of empathy because the person in me feels the pain for the other individual and I don't want that pain to be caused in them therefore I continue in the possibility and hopes (positivist) that things will change eventually Lord willing (in my heart I mourn for the pain of that other person). Fe may be symathetic but beyond that not subject their own feelings and person to what I experience. And yes i voice my opinion often by saying "I feel so bad for homeless people...i feel so bad for Kenyans....i feel so bad for women who are subjected to violence...i feel i feel i feel".
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 06-18-2014 at 06:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    is "test" a euphemism for something? then yeah.
    It makes more sense in my native tongue - we use the same "to test her" for "giving her a questionnaire to fulfil" and "to try her out". So yes, it was an euphemism

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    I thought you might say that I'm pretty sure I have Fi as a demonstrative function though:
    It's a possibility. Do you mock the idea of subjective, personal feelings? Because that's what I do with emotions (Fe is my demonstrative function).


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    But this is a description of FI-dom (EII, ESI), not Fi-aux (SEE, IEE).
    Is it? Maybe the article has been taken out of context, but the title simply reads "The Introverted Feeling Type".


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    ESE's on the other hand to me often seem like overbearing pushy moms.
    Really? Every ESE I've met has essentially had a "live-and-let-live" attitude. They're not overbearing or pushy at all, though they can be a bit sarcastic and "it's-all-about-me".

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    Quote Originally Posted by McBain View Post
    The EII I had for a poetry professor this quarter had a tendency to pity people. He'd tell stories about how when he was younger he used to find magazine articles about shitty people doing shitty things in the world and then weep about them...over...and over...again and again, like some sort of addiction. The same fucking story, until he'd find another one. Or how he felt sorry for Ron Jeremy just because he's pathetic or go on and on about how the kids in his high school didn't like him...fucking christ, goddamn EIIs.

    Also, they tend to think they're right...about EVERYTHING, even when you dismantle their arguments.
    The EII poetry student I had once called me out whenever I was projecting my emotions into some reading of someone's work lol. She would present alternate perspectives and back up her reasoning with like, "x, y, z." Maybe she was IEE though. Pretty intellectually methodical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Clearly View Post




    Really? Every ESE I've met has essentially had a "live-and-let-live" attitude. They're not overbearing or pushy at all, though they can be a bit sarcastic and "it's-all-about-me".
    They can be pretty pushy in an EJ way. The thing w/ XSE is that they are often pushy about small things that don't always make sense- i.e. ESE might get anxious and try to rally everyone to get to a restaurant early, even if it's a weekday night and it's unlikely that there will be no seats. Etc. If they haven't been there they don't feel sure. In daily activities they might feel like you aren't reliable if you can't prove that you have all your bases covered similarly (or comfort them in a XII way).

    EIE's are pushy too, in a different way.

    that being said they can both be super cool though. and plus they need to pick up the slack for languishing XEI's...

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    Fe dom sees it as my problem like there's a flaw in me or a void I'm striving to fill when I feel about things outside mysel or when I act to help someone out of love and care for them. That somehow the company I seek to maintain through my acts of generocity gives back validation of my self that I should attain and be happy with from within me and not through my company or my relations. The company of people I keep do love me and often lift my spirits my melancholy spirits up in the time of my need for that. s

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    They can be pretty pushy in an EJ way. The thing w/ XSE is that they are often pushy about small things that don't always make sense- i.e. ESE might get anxious and try to rally everyone to get to a restaurant early, even if it's a weekday night and it's unlikely that there will be no seats. Etc. If they haven't been there they don't feel sure. In daily activities they might feel like you aren't reliable if you can't prove that you have all your bases covered similarly (or comfort them in a XII way).
    I suppose you're right. I especially like the bolded part, because I think it illustrates a possible consequence of their Ni-PoLR. Maybe I just don't feel the pressure from ESE when others would say they're being pushy. Regardless, I still think EIE is more pushy and overbearing. Their "intuition of convergence" can be very annoying. I work with EIE (he's actually a good friend), and sometimes when we're working on a task he'll say "we must do it this way", and I'll be like "are you sure? that's gonna require a lot of work, there has to be another way", and then he'll be like "nope, this is the only way", and then I'll spend the next 10 minutes trying to come up with alternative methods.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Clearly View Post
    I suppose you're right. I especially like the bolded part, because I think it illustrates a possible consequence of their Ni-PoLR. Maybe I just don't feel the pressure from ESE when others would say they're being pushy. Regardless, I still think EIE is more pushy and overbearing. Their "intuition of convergence" can be very annoying. I work with EIE (he's actually a good friend), and sometimes when we're working on a task he'll say "we must do it this way", and I'll be like "are you sure? that's gonna require a lot of work, there has to be another way", and then he'll be like "nope, this is the only way", and then I'll spend the next 10 minutes trying to come up with alternative methods.
    I think it's that Si-creative can make random people feel like they are being treated like children lol. I <3 ESE's though.

    and "intuition of convergence" is a cool way of putting it- I hadn't heard of that before, but it totally makes sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Clearly View Post
    It's a possibility. Do you mock the idea of subjective, personal feelings? Because that's what I do with emotions (Fe is my demonstrative function).
    No, I don't mock personal feelings, but as @Pookie so perfectly put it, "We (IEI's) make fun of it and tease the idea of Fi, but it's mostly facetious and our actions reflect a 4d strength in it. If worked on, Demonstrative Fi can be that person who never really does anybody wrong, but nobody notices because we're constantly making filthy, dark-humored jokes and pretending like we don't tip the waitress.
    I would say the understanding of personal relationships and connections between people is the part we sort of miss(as it's unconscious in NiFe), but we retain the right or wrong, ethical strengths."

    Is it? Maybe the article has been taken out of context, but the title simply reads "The Introverted Feeling Type".
    Jung's description are for types who are leading with that particular function. For IEE's or SEE's you have to look at the following two description of NE-dom and Se-dom:

    The Extraverted Intuitive Type

    Whenever intuition predominates, a particular and unmistakable psychology presents itself. Because intuition is orientated by the object, a decided dependence upon external situations is discernible, but it has an altogether different character from the dependence of the sensational type. The intuitive is never to be found among the generally recognized reality values, but he is always present where possibilities exist. He has a keen nose for things in the bud pregnant with future promise. He can never exist in stable, long-established conditions of generally acknowledged though limited value: because his eye is constantly ranging for new possibilities, stable conditions have an air of impending suffocation. He seizes hold of new objects and new ways with eager intensity, sometimes with extraordinary enthusiasm, only to abandon them cold-bloodedly, without regard and apparently without remembrance, as soon as their range becomes clearly defined and a promise of any considerable future development no longer clings to them. As long as a possibility exists, the intuitive is bound to it with thongs of fate. It is as though his whole life went out into the new situation. One gets the impression, which he himself shares, that he has just reached the definitive turning point in his life, and that from now on nothing else can seriously engage his thought and feeling. How- [p. 465] ever reasonable and opportune it may be, and although every conceivable argument speaks in favour of stability, a day will come when nothing will deter him from regarding as a prison, the self-same situation that seemed to promise him freedom and deliverance, and from acting accordingly. Neither reason nor feeling can restrain or discourage him from a new possibility, even though it may run counter to convictions hitherto unquestioned. Thinking and feeling, the indispensable components of conviction, are, with him, inferior functions, possessing no decisive weight; hence they lack the power to offer any lasting. resistance to the force of intuition. And yet these are the only functions that are capable of creating any effectual compensation to the supremacy of intuition, since they can provide the intuitive with that judgment in which his type is altogether lacking. The morality of the intuitive is governed neither by intellect nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his intuitive view of things and a voluntary submission to its authority, Consideration for the welfare of his neighbours is weak. No solid argument hinges upon their well-being any more than upon his own. Neither can we detect in him any great respect for his neighbour's convictions and customs; in fact, he is not infrequently put down as an immoral and ruthless adventurer. Since his intuition is largely concerned with outer objects, scenting out external possibilities, he readily applies himself to callings wherein he may expand his abilities in many directions. Merchants, contractors, speculators, agents, politicians, etc., commonly belong to this type.


    Apparently this type is more prone to favour women than men; in which case, however, the intuitive activity reveals itself not so much in the professional as in the social sphere. Such women understand the art of utilizing every social opportunity; they establish right social con- [p. 466] nections; they seek out lovers with possibilities only to abandon everything again for the sake of a new possibility.


    It is at once clear, both from the standpoint of political economy and on grounds of general culture, that such a type is uncommonly important. If well-intentioned, with an orientation to life not purely egoistical, he may render exceptional service as the promoter, if not the initiator of every kind of promising enterprise. He is the natural advocate of every minority that holds the seed of future promise. Because of his capacity, when orientated more towards men than things, to make an intuitive diagnosis of their abilities and range of usefulness, he can also 'make' men. His capacity to inspire his fellow-men with courage, or to kindle enthusiasm for something new, is unrivalled, although he may have forsworn it by the morrow. The more powerful and vivid his intuition, the more is his subject fused and blended with the divined possibility. He animates it; he presents it in plastic shape and with convincing fire; he almost embodies it. It is not a mere histrionic display, but a fate.


    This attitude has immense dangers -- all too easily the intuitive may squander his life. He spends himself animating men and things, spreading around him an abundance of life -- a life, however, which others live, not he. Were he able to rest with the actual thing, he would gather the fruit of his labours; yet all too soon must he be running after some fresh possibility, quitting his newly planted field, while others reap the harvest. In the end he goes empty away. But when the intuitive lets things reach such a pitch, he also has the unconscious against him. The unconscious of the intuitive has a certain similarity with that of the sensation-type. Thinking and feeling, being relatively repressed, produce infantile and archaic thoughts and feelings in the unconscious, which may be compared [p. 467] with those of the countertype. They likewise come to the surface in the form of intensive projections, and are just as absurd as those of the sensation-type, only to my mind they lack the other's mystical character; they are chiefly concerned with quasi-actual things, in the nature of sexual, financial, and other hazards, as, for instance, suspicions of approaching illness. This difference appears to be due to a repression of the sensations of actual things. These latter usually command attention in the shape of a sudden entanglement with a most unsuitable woman, or, in the case of a woman, with a thoroughly unsuitable man; and this is simply the result of their unwitting contact with the sphere of archaic sensations. But its consequence is an unconsciously compelling tie to an object of incontestable futility. Such an event is already a compulsive symptom, which is also thoroughly characteristic of this type. In common with the sensation-type, he claims a similar freedom and exemption from all restraint, since he suffers no submission of his decisions to rational judgment, relying entirely upon the perception of chance, possibilities. He rids himself of the restrictions of reason, only to fall a victim to unconscious neurotic compulsions in the form of oversubtle, negative reasoning, hair-splitting dialectics, and a compulsive tie to the sensation of the object. His conscious attitude, both to the sensation and the sensed object, is one of sovereign superiority and disregard. Not that he means to be inconsiderate or superior -- he simply does not see the object that everyone else sees; his oblivion is similar to that of the sensation-type -- only, with the latter, the soul of the object is missed. For this oblivion the object sooner or later takes revenge in the form of hypochondriacal, compulsive ideas, phobias, and every imaginable kind of absurd bodily sensation. [p. 468]


    The Extraverted Sensation Type

    No other human type can equal the extraverted sensation type in realism. His sense for objective facts is extraordinarily developed. His life is an accumulation of actual experiences of concrete objects, and the more pronounced his type, the less use does he make of his experience. In certain cases the events in his life hardly deserve the name "experience" at all. What he experiences serves at most as a guide to fresh sensations; anything new that comes within his range of interest is acquired by way of sensation and has to serve its ends. Since one is inclined to regard a highly developed reality-sense as a sign of rationality, such people will be esteemed as very rational. But in actual fact this is not the case, since they are just as much at the mercy of their sensations in the face of irrational, chance happenings as they are in the face of rational ones. This type—the majority appear to be men—naturally does not think he is at the "mercy" of sensation. He would ridicule this view as quite beside the point, because sensation for him is a concrete expression of life-it is simply real life lived to the full. His whole aim is concrete enjoyment, and his morality is oriented accordingly. Indeed, true enjoyment has its own special morality, its own moderation and lawfulness, its own unselfishness and willingness to make sacrifices. It by no means follows that he is just sensual or gross, for he may differentiate his sensation to the finest pitch of aesthetic purity without ever deviating from his principle of concrete sensation however abstract his sensations may be. Wulfen's Der Genussmensch: ein Cicerone im rücksichtslosen Lebensgenuss is the unvarnished confession of a type of this sort, and the book seems to me worth reading on that account alone.

    On the lower levels, this type is the lover of tangible reality, with little inclination for reflection and no desire to dominate. To feel the object, to have sensations and if possible enjoy them—that is his constant aim. He is by no means unlovable; on the contrary, his lively capacity for enjoyment makes him very good company; he is usually a jolly fellow, and sometimes a refined aesthete. In the former case the great problems of life hang on a good or indifferent dinner; in the latter, it's all a question of good taste. Once an object has given him a sensation, nothing more remains to be said or done about it. It cannot be anything except concrete and real; conjectures that go beyond the concrete are admitted only on condition that they enhance sensation. The intensification does not necessarily have to be pleasurable, for this type need not be a common voluptuary; he is merely desirous of the strongest sensations, and these, by his very nature, he can receive only from outside. What comes from inside seems to him morbid and suspect. He always reduces his thoughts and feelings to objective causes, to influences emanating from objects, quite unperturbed by the most glaring violations of logic. Once he can get back to tangible reality in any form he can breathe again. In this respect he is surprisingly credulous. He will unhesitatingly connect a psychogenic symptom with a drop in the barometer, while on the other hand the existence of a psychic conflict seems to him morbid imagination. His love is unquestionably rooted in the physical attractions of its object. If normal, he is conspicuously well adjusted to reality. That is his ideal, and it even makes him considerate of others. As he has no ideals connected with ideas, he has no reason to act in any way contrary to the reality of things as they are. This manifests itself in all the externals of his life. He dresses well, as befits the occasion; he keeps a good table with plenty of drink for his friends, making them feel very grand, or at least giving them to understand that his refined taste entitles him to make a few demands of them. He may even convince them that certain sacrifices are decidedly worth while for the sake of style.

    The more sensation predominates, however, so that the subject disappears behind the sensation, the less agreeable does this type become. He develops into a crude pleasure-seeker, or else degenerates into an unscrupulous, effete aesthete. Although the object has become quite indispensable to him, yet, as something existing in its own right, it is none the less devalued. It is ruthlessly exploited and squeezed dry, since now its sole use is to stimulate sensation. The bondage to the object is carried to the extreme limit. In consequence, the unconscious is forced out of its compensatory role into open opposition. Above all, the repressed intuitions begin to assert themselves in the form of projections. The wildest suspicions arise; if the object is a sexual one, jealous fantasies and anxiety states gain the upper hand. More acute cases develop every sort of phobia, and, in particular, compulsion symptoms. The pathological contents have a markedly unreal character, with a frequent moral or religious streak. A pettifogging captiousness follows, or a grotesquely punctilious morality combined with primitive, "magical" superstitions that fall back on abstruse rites. All these things have their source in the repressed inferior functions which have been driven into harsh opposition to the conscious attitude, and they appear in a guise that is all the more striking because they rest on the most absurd assumptions, in complete contrast to the conscious sense of reality. The whole structure of thought and feeling seems, in this second personality, to be twisted into a pathological parody: reason turns into hair-splitting pedantry, morality into dreary moralizing and blatant Pharisaism, religion into ridiculous superstition, and intuition, the noblest gift of man, into meddlesome officiousness, poking into every corner; instead of gazing into the far distance, it descends to the lowest level of human meanness.

    The specifically compulsive character of the neurotic symptoms is the unconscious counterpart of the easy-going attitude of the pure sensation type, who, from the standpoint of rational judgment, accepts indiscriminately everything that happens. Although this does not by any means imply an absolute lawlessness and lack of restraint, it nevertheless deprives him of the essential restraining power of judgment. But rational judgment is a conscious coercion which the rational type appears to impose on himself of his own free will. This coercion overtakes the sensation type from the unconscious, in the form of compulsion. Moreover, the very existence of a judgment means that the rational type's relation to the object will never become an absolute tie, as it is in the case of the sensation type. When his attitude attains an abnormal degree of one-sidedness, therefore, he is in danger of being overpowered by the unconscious in the same measure as he is consciously in the grip of the object. If he should become neurotic, it is much harder to treat him by rational means because the functions which the analyst must turn to are in a relatively undifferentiated state, and little or no reliance can be placed on them. Special techniques for bringing emotional pressure to bear are often needed in order to make him at all conscious.

    Really? Every ESE I've met has essentially had a "live-and-let-live" attitude. They're not overbearing or pushy at all, though they can be a bit sarcastic and "it's-all-about-me".
    I actually like ESE's alright and get along with them, but some of them are projecting too much of a caregiver houswife role for my taste. But it really depends. And I think it's logical we will prefer different types if we're not from the same quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    I <3 ESE's though.
    Me too. If I had to use one word to describe them, it would be "diva". But in a good way, of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by lemontrees View Post
    and "intuition of convergence" is a cool way of putting it- I hadn't heard of that before, but it totally makes sense!
    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    No, I don't mock personal feelings, but as @Pookie so perfectly put it, "We (IEI's) make fun of it and tease the idea of Fi, but it's mostly facetious and our actions reflect a 4d strength in it. If worked on, Demonstrative Fi can be that person who never really does anybody wrong, but nobody notices because we're constantly making filthy, dark-humored jokes and pretending like we don't tip the waitress.
    I would say the understanding of personal relationships and connections between people is the part we sort of miss(as it's unconscious in NiFe), but we retain the right or wrong, ethical strengths."
    Funny, I also suspect Pookie to be EII. You two are just so damn nice and reasonable! By the way, I work with an EII and we make dark, hateful, and often sexual jokes all the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by darya View Post
    Jung's description are for types who are leading with that particular function. For IEE's or SEE's you have to look at the following two description of NE-dom and Se-dom:
    Aren't those descriptions just about someone with that element in their ego? In other words, couldn't the Ne description be about IEE, ILE, EII, or LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hydrangea View Post
    Maybe he was trying to help yall with your writing
    and make you feel powerful emotions and passion
    in order to better your material.

    Or he was projecting.
    Either that, or he's got mommy issues. He'd go on and on about how his empty nest mother would feed her dog better meals than she would for him. Like organic top sirloin with bris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Clearly View Post
    Funny, I also suspect Pookie to be EII. You two are just so damn nice and reasonable!
    Awww, thanks I think IEI's in general are kind people, definitely very soft and emotional compared to most others. I really think you've got a wrong impression from some immature unstable ones. We're also not as outward dramatic as it may seem from descriptions, we're generally chillax and go with the flow.

    And I think at first glance it's not always easy to seperate IEI's from EII's, there's that INFx soft aura. Irl I get along great with so many different types from different quadras, that I wouldn't place too much stock in that. It's in the romantic relationships and work-environment where the differences and clashes become obvious. Especially in the romantic relationships it gets frustrating if you don't get from the other exactly what you need, no matter what a great person he/she is.

    I've also always had a strong feeling that I belong in beta, I don't know how to explain - definitely not because I'm unreasonable, just intense in some certain ways. And it only make sense that I'm beta NF by the functions I use and value.

    Aren't those descriptions just about someone with that element in their ego? In other words, couldn't the Ne description be about IEE, ILE, EII, or LII?
    I'm almost certain that this description is for IEE's and ILE's only.

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    The problems I have experienced with my EII sister revolve around how she keeps going around the same argument, again and again, restating her point ad nauseum, in case last time you didn't hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Martrix View Post
    The problems I have experienced with my EII sister revolve around how she keeps going around the same argument, again and again, restating her point ad nauseum, in case last time you didn't hear.
    It' morality...trying to persuade you to feel what should be felt in that situation. She's not stoping because she hasnt had the right response. In that case, after she says it the first time, just aay "right" or " I agree about that feeling" *guilty*

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I clash with Fe people often at work. SiFe (esp ESEs) tend to tell me I'm weird all the time because of my jokes or interaction style. It starts to piss me off. I think they actually suck at reading people who aren't Fe. And most of 'em are pretty damn pushy.
    It feels like every single facial expression you make is being put under scrutiny around some of them.

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    I think if i was a IJ, i wouldnt have the most cluttered work area in the entire office.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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