Demonstrative function helping duals grow

[Becca]

8. Demonstrative Function

A person uses this element mainly as a kind of game, or to ridicule those who he thinks take it too seriously. They often intentionally go against its conventional usage simply to prove a point in favor of their creative function. However, this function is used quite often in private, to produce information of its element to support their creative function when focusing on making contact with the external world.A person will often have just as sophisticated an understanding of this function as his or her leading function. Unlike the ignoring function it plays a major part in a person's worldview, since as the vulnerable function of one's dual it requires especially delicate attention. Thus, when a person is given information regarding the element in the demonstrative function by someone else, they will tend to take it as obvious information that is irrelevant to completely focus on. One will often use the demonstrative function to defend and further support their beliefs made in the vulnerable function.The demonstrative function is easiest function to use (after the base function) yet often occurs sporadically. When one experiences a problem regarding this function, one must correct it as it does play a vital part in a person's worldview.- See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/f....UKxcdFDI.dpuf

The demonstrative function is used to support beliefs made in the vulnerable function, which made me think of why duals fighting can be very painful, but at the same time challenging.

For example, LSE is weak in Ni, so when EII does something to hurt this point, LSE can get very defensive and use Se as a defense. This, in turn, will frighten EII at its polr. They will then try to defend themselves through their Ni demonstrative function, which will not work either because LSE does not understand or care about it.

Due to having their vulnerable function attacked, the dual is forced to face it. At least, if they want the relationship to continue. They have to give into their "fears" of the Polr function and use their demonstrative function to fight back. When both realize the other's valid point, they have to let down their guard and admit their flaws. In other words, they have to be vulnerable.

Duals can challenge each other to be stronger, kind of like a boxer who gains most from the hardest match.

[Beautiful sky]

lol. Now give an example ofbwhen you delt with this and I'll give you mine

[Beautiful sky]

So because I have good sometimes bad awareness of Ni. I can plan ahead effectively getting us good seats and the tickets or taking necessities when I feel like well need them. But I get upset when people don't show up to a date on time. I cry in that case and LSE just throw their hands up in the air like "oh well." That's because they don't like excessive negative emotional displays so they don't try to make a big deal of it or aggravate it worse. That I just want to tell them that what I had planned is important. I can't tell the future or make predictions like ni ego types IEI and EIE can


Ese- you know I get tense when I'm given a certain time to be there and I know how traffic on the 405 can be so I think we should leave at 1 (3 hours to get there). Early is on time, on time is late!.
Eii- are you kidding me? We'll be the only ones there for hours and we won't have anything to do. Let's leave at 2:30 and get there just as people are settled.
Ese- this is stressing me oooouuuut!
Eii- oh calm down!!!

We get there on time and I tease him. See I told you


Lse- I think I'll make the 5 o'clock showing
Eii- no you won't
Lse- ok well I'm leaving now
Eii- *she's gonna be late. I better buy the tickets and go get us some good seats*

Lse arrives late...saying "oh shit. I thought I was going to make it on time."
Eii- *smiles secretly teasing her and hands her her ticket.....they go watch the movie in great seats*

I know what will happen subconsciously, it's not like I predict it precisely. What I will foretell are things related to morality and feelings that will arise in individuals and humanity as things evolve.

[Becca]

EII tells the LSE that the plans changed at the last minute
LSE: You're always doing this and you don't care about my time! Don't expect me to make plans with you again
EII: (sorry) I really did not realize that I had to go somewhere beforehand, it was a mistake honest.
LSE: Yea right. You're full of excuses.
EII: It's not true I didn't mean to do it
LSE: Actions speak louder than words, and if this keeps happening it shows...
EII: (almost in tears) You're wrong...
LSE: Yea? So how come you always do this?
EII: I know it looks bad but it's not true...
LSE: I don't believe you anymore

Ok, that was not the best example, but it shows how the LSE get's upset with Ni and uses Se to defend their "beliefs." The EII get's hurt by the Se, and fights back with Ni, which does not mean anything to the LSE. But it is so obvious to both of them that they are right that it's hard to see the other's point of view. Eventually they learn that each has a weak spot in a that area, and they should avoid attacking it.

Good?

[Aylen]

EII + LSE, Ni =

Y'all think supernatural is silly.

Ni as Vulnerable Function

The individual prefers to focus on immediate tasks, taking things as they come, rather than try to evaluate the outcome of present trends. Inclination to tell stories or narrate events on a sequential basis, rather than outlining how one event led to another. He perceives time in an undifferentiated manner: the past, present, and future are all perceived as being in or near the present. When talking about the future, especially one's longer-term plan), the individual treats it as if it were accessible today and often is not aware of all the developments that must happen first. He generally has a poor sense of how long things will take and what the best amount of time to spend on things is. Therefore it is difficult for him to stay on schedule without extensive, even total, pre-planning.- See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i....22NnsUjj.dpuf

Ni as Demonstrative Function

The individual is quite adept at following discussions on the developments of present trends into the future and at contributing to them on occasion if he feels so inclined, but he does not take that as seriously compared to investigating possibilities in the areas he is interested in at present. He usually dismisses supernatural claims as being silly, wishful thinking, unless they happen to be related to the very specific religion he feels inclined to believe in and which he may be inclined to make part of his leisure activities.- See more at: http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/i....22NnsUjj.dpuf

[Beautiful sky]

EII tells the LSE that the plans changed at the last minute
LSE: You're always doing this and you don't care about my time! Don't expect me to make plans with you again
EII: (sorry) I really did not realize that I had to go somewhere beforehand, it was a mistake honest.
LSE: Yea right. You're full of excuses.
EII: It's not true I didn't mean to do it
LSE: Actions speak louder than words, and if this keeps happening it shows...
EII: (almost in tears) You're wrong...
LSE: Yea? So how come you always do this?
EII: I know it looks bad but it's not true...
LSE: I don't believe you anymore

Ok, that was not the best example, but it shows how the LSE get's upset with Ni and uses Se to defend their "beliefs." The EII get's hurt by the Se, and fights back with Ni, which does not mean anything to the LSE. But it is so obvious to both of them that they are right that it's hard to see the other's point of view. Eventually they learn that each has a weak spot in a that area, and they should avoid attacking it.

Good?

How sure are you that he's not SLI? I'm going to be firm Becca in typing your LSE as SLI because i believe that you're mistaaking the upset behavior of that person for Se. The reason why I type him SLI is because he's hurt that you're taking time away from him not that objectively you have things to do. Does this make sense?

[Iris]

Here is the part of Ni Demonstrative that I have seen with my EII friends:

From Wikisocion - The individual is also not naive to future happenings. He will often warn others of negative consequences. In this way, he uses his Ni to help the PoLR of his dual. However, unlike an EIE, he will not often take his own advice nor expect others to. His Se PoLR makes it impossible for him to demand that others heed his advice, and his Ne-ego makes him place more value in the possibility that he is wrong - and that things will play out differently - than in avoiding foreseeable disasters."

When I make an Ni warning, I can be pretty intense because I value Ni. Ni is unvalued for EIIs so they are more low key about their predictions.

I will try to think of an example, but I am out of time right now.

[Beautiful sky]

Mighty I attempt at explaining the difference between Beta Ni and Delta.

I find that Dostoevsky said it best when he wrote:

"...everyone will all at once realize how unnaturally they have separated themselves one from another. Such will be the spirit of the time, and they will be astonished that they sat in darkness for so long, and did not see the light."

I do this very same thing when someone breaks a morality that I realize will change in an individual. If someone is unrighteous in the eyes of another individual, for instance cpig has been especially harsh to me in the past, I said to him in the chat box that he will come to realize the feelings that he produces in me when he has children of his own. Delta Ni is always with evolution, the evolving of feelings, ethics and morals in an individual in time. They are not actions as in "I see that she may become a great writer." This last example is actually Ni...the kind that will be observed by Alpha. They see a person writing and practicing and will notice how that action in the person will evolve in the future, hence making a prediction with that regard.

Ni in Beta to me is more with regards to action as well coupled with observation of trustfulness in people through testing them by throwing challenges at them. Delta is moral evolution.

Dostoevsky continues..."Until then we must keep hold of the banner, and every once in a while, if only individually, act of brotherly communion, though it be with the rank of holy fool. So that the great thought does not die..."


This compares with (possibility) in that in EII, as Dostoevky writes

"I came finally to regard him with admiration, for besides enjoying his intelligence, I came finally to regard him with admiration, for, besides design in himself, and was perhaps preparing for a great deed. Perhaps he liked it, too, that I did not express any curiosity about his secret..."

It could be this or that or that and each could lead a certain path; this certain bath will evolve to be this

[lemontrees]

Here is the part of Ni Demonstrative that I have seen with my EII friends:

From Wikisocion - The individual is also not naive to future happenings. He will often warn others of negative consequences. In this way, he uses his Ni to help the PoLR of his dual. However, unlike an EIE, he will not often take his own advice nor expect others to. His Se PoLR makes it impossible for him to demand that others heed his advice, and his Ne-ego makes him place more value in the possibility that he is wrong - and that things will play out differently - than in avoiding foreseeable disasters."

When I make an Ni warning, I can be pretty intense because I value Ni. Ni is unvalued for EIIs so they are more low key about their predictions.

I will try to think of an example, but I am out of time right now.

This is interesting to me. Does it mean that EII's Ni-predictions don't even actually happen, they steer clear of it or help someone else steer clear of it using Ne somehow? Or is it simply not as important b/c they don't value getting to a specific Se/Ni-type destination, therefore even if something weird happens, you can always backtrack or choose a different path?

I'm trying to understand the practical consequences of this (particularly since I can see how my own weak Ni has affected me in life, which I think as a role function *is* something you put a certain amount of conscious focus on.)

Thanks Iris for answering my intense yet badly worded questions

[Beautiful sky]

Humanity will come to change in this way as they realize that unity is the answer to whatever...

That is Delta Ni.

[Iris]

This is interesting to me. Does it mean that EII's Ni-predictions don't even actually happen, they steer clear of it or help someone else steer clear of it using Ne somehow? Or is it simply not as important b/c they don't value getting to a specific Se/Ni-type destination, therefore even if something weird happens, you can always backtrack or choose a different path?

I'm trying to understand the practical consequences of this (particularly since I can see how my own weak Ni has affected me in life, which I think as a role function *is* something you put a certain amount of conscious focus on.)

Thanks Iris for answering my intense yet badly worded questions

I am going to try to think of some examples. In the meantime, here are a few thoughts.

I think EII/LSE really value Ne and think in terms of possibilites. When I make an Ni warning, they are neutral or dismissive because they prefer a horizon full of possibility. Even if the EII agrees, it won't be a real enthusiastic validation of the warning because possibilities are like air to them.

If you asked an EII to think of all of the possible worst things that could happen in a situation, they would be pretty good at it. But it would be more of an exercise. Just like if you ask me to brainstorm possibilities, I can easily come up with lots of good ideas. But idea generation is not where I want to be all of the time.

[lemontrees]

I am going to try to think of some examples. In the meantime, here are a few thoughts.

I think EII/LSE really value Ne and think in terms of possibilites. When I make an Ni warning, they are neutral or dismissive because they prefer a horizon full of possibility. Even if the EII agrees, it won't be a real enthusiastic validation of the warning because possibilities are like air to them.

If you asked an EII to think of all of the possible worst things that could happen in a situation, they would be pretty good at it. But it would be more of an exercise. Just like if you ask me to brainstorm possibilities, I can easily come up with lots of good ideas. But idea generation is not where I want to be all of the time.

Thanks, Iris. That makes sense; I can easily see how that would be the case.

[Sirena]

What @Iris said.

Some people see me as overly negative and even somewhat arrogant for this reason. They want to think that the possibilities are endless, but to me that seems silly when I can easily have a sense of what's coming. It's like a laser beam because it truly happens that fast. I never have to sit there and logically dissect the situation, I just get an instant instinct which is probably based on patterns but it's hard to know for sure because it's not a thought-out process. This also presents some problems when asked to explain it. A lot of times I think it would be easier to be so "naive" and open about the future and I'll go through times of intentionally trying to be, but it doesn't come naturally.

[Becca]

How sure are you that he's not SLI? I'm going to be firm Becca in typing your LSE as SLI because i believe that you're mistaaking the upset behavior of that person for Se. The reason why I type him SLI is because he's hurt that you're taking time away from him not that objectively you have things to do. Does this make sense?

It's a she. She's my good friend and we made up to meet and then an hour before we were supposed to meet I texted her that I had somewhere else to be. It was a mistake on my part, but she was very upset because it sounded like I wasn't on top of my schedule and that affected her. No I do not understand why this person sounds SLI would you be able to explain about the taking time away? I would think that LSE's get upset if you waste their time.

[Iris]

What @Iris said.

Some people see me as overly negative and even somewhat arrogant for this reason. They want to think that the possibilities are endless, but to me that seems silly when I can easily have a sense of what's coming. It's like a laser beam because it truly happens that fast. I never have to sit there and logically dissect the situation, I just get an instant instinct which is probably based on patterns but it's hard to know for sure because it's not a thought-out process. This also presents some problems when asked to explain it. A lot of times I think it would be easier to be so "naive" and open about the future and I'll go through times of intentionally trying to be, but it doesn't come naturally.

Yes, me too. The Ni reaction is quick, and I agree, instinctive.

[Pookie]

I don't know if i agree with the thesis here.

I think Demonstrative works to help their Dual because they use it in a way thats very, show you but not talk to you about it unless forced on the defensive.
The dual has insecurities with the PolR so it helps to see someone who's very strong with it, but doesn't make it a point for you to do anything but acknowledge it.

Like SLE has real issues trusting people and knowing when somebody will do them "right". IEI can ooze that type of consideration out and not breath a word about it, allowing their dual to get comfortable and connect with someone without having to come to terms with their ill-equipped Fi, which because of its weakness acts as a barrier from connecting. Just like IEI's Te act as a barrier from really being proactive with their work(or whatever), SLE handles it. The ID comes out consciously through the comforting Ego functions.

[Pookie]

Double post.

"I'm trying to be the shepherd here Ringo. I'm trying real hard. - Jules Winfield.

[Becca]

Here is the part of Ni Demonstrative that I have seen with my EII friends:

From Wikisocion - The individual is also not naive to future happenings. He will often warn others of negative consequences. In this way, he uses his Ni to help the PoLR of his dual. However, unlike an EIE, he will not often take his own advice nor expect others to. His Se PoLR makes it impossible for him to demand that others heed his advice, and his Ne-ego makes him place more value in the possibility that he is wrong - and that things will play out differently - than in avoiding foreseeable disasters."

When I make an Ni warning, I can be pretty intense because I value Ni. Ni is unvalued for EIIs so they are more low key about their predictions.

I will try to think of an example, but I am out of time right now.

Yup I agree

I am going to try to think of some examples. In the meantime, here are a few thoughts.

I think EII/LSE really value Ne and think in terms of possibilites. When I make an Ni warning, they are neutral or dismissive because they prefer a horizon full of possibility. Even if the EII agrees, it won't be a real enthusiastic validation of the warning because possibilities are like air to them.

If you asked an EII to think of all of the possible worst things that could happen in a situation, they would be pretty good at it. But it would be more of an exercise. Just like if you ask me to brainstorm possibilities, I can easily come up with lots of good ideas. But idea generation is not where I want to be all of the time.

Yea my LIE friend tends to put "too much weight" on certain beliefs that she comes up with, while I do not agree.
I wonder if this is good for my LSE dual because they don't "trust" non-backed beliefs.

[Becca]

Mighty I attempt at explaining the difference between Beta Ni and Delta.

I find that Dostoevsky said it best when he wrote:

"...everyone will all at once realize how unnaturally they have separated themselves one from another. Such will be the spirit of the time, and they will be astonished that they sat in darkness for so long, and did not see the light."

I do this very same thing when someone breaks a morality that I realize will change in an individual. If someone is unrighteous in the eyes of another individual, for instance cpig has been especially harsh to me in the past, I said to him in the chat box that he will come to realize the feelings that he produces in me when he has children of his own. Delta Ni is always with evolution, the evolving of feelings, ethics and morals in an individual in time. They are not actions as in "I see that she may become a great writer." This last example is actually Ni...the kind that will be observed by Alpha. They see a person writing and practicing and will notice how that action in the person will evolve in the future, hence making a prediction with that regard.

Hahaha this is funny to me because I find similar situations of my own. For example, if someone hurts me I think, "well he'll get payed back one day and know how it feels." Sometimes, I voice it and the person looks at me as if I'm crazy.
For example, when I was younger and my friend betrayed me, I told her, "I considered you my friend and now I see how you went against me. I will not trust you again." I was true to my word.
I learned that sometimes I need to step back and give the person space, because my judgements can be harsh.

Ni in Beta to me is more with regards to action as well coupled with observation of trustfulness in people through testing them by throwing challenges at them. Delta is moral evolution.

Dostoevsky continues..."Until then we must keep hold of the banner, and every once in a while, if only individually, act of brotherly communion, though it be with the rank of holy fool. So that the great thought does not die..."


This compares with (possibility) in that in EII, as Dostoevky writes

"I came finally to regard him with admiration, for besides enjoying his intelligence, I came finally to regard him with admiration, for, besides design in himself, and was perhaps preparing for a great deed. Perhaps he liked it, too, that I did not express any curiosity about his secret..."

It could be this or that or that and each could lead a certain path; this certain bath will evolve to be this

[Beautiful sky]

Hahaha this is funny to me because I find similar situations of my own. For example, if someone hurts me I think, "well he'll get payed back one day and know how it feels." Sometimes, I voice it and the person looks at me as if I'm crazy.
For example, when I was younger and my friend betrayed me, I told her, "I considered you my friend and now I see how you went against me. I will not trust you again." I was true to my word.
I learned that sometimes I need to step back and give the person space, because my judgements can be harsh.

[Becca]

I don't know if i agree with the thesis here.

I think Demonstrative works to help their Dual because they use it in a way thats very, show you but not talk to you about it unless forced on the defensive.
The dual has insecurities with the PolR so it helps to see someone who's very strong with it, but doesn't make it a point for you to do anything but acknowledge it.

Like SLE has real issues trusting people and knowing when somebody will do them "right". IEI can ooze that type of consideration out and not breath a word about it, allowing their dual to get comfortable and connect with someone without having to come to terms with their ill-equipped Fi, which because of its weakness acts as a barrier from connecting. Just like IEI's Te act as a barrier from really being proactive with their work(or whatever), SLE handles it. The ID comes out consciously through the comforting Ego functions.

Right but I was thinking that when duals fight due to insecurities or something, they affect one another's Polrs and each try to defend themselves. Which hurts even more to the other side because it is their weak spots. For example When LSE uses Se to protect their "hurt" Ni, and ends up yelling or abusing EII. The EII in turn get's hurt from the exploiting of their weak function Se, and tries to defend themselves with Ni which in turn does not help.

It is very painful when Duals fight, and when they make up there is usually an agreement to never hurt the person that way again because they see the damage it caused.

[Pookie]

I dont think that reallly is a situation that helps you grow. It's more like a situation that has you acting like a child. I think the mark of a grown person is having enough control over one's insecurities that you don't lash out and hurt others when you get defensive.

[ConcreteButterfly]

I think the demonstrative does indeed attack your dual's POLR, but it works in tandem with the restrictive function, which is your dual's role, and which they consciously manipulate. For example in IEE/SLI dualization, the IEE controls the level of volitional pressure () which "moves" the spatial coordinates () of the SLI which the IEE subsequently experiences. The SLI for his part controls the time between successive events (), which "releases" the emotions () of the IEE, which the SLI experiences. So in a dual relationship you're not in danger of excessive pressure on your POLR, because you can always adjust it through your role.

[Marietta]

What @Iris said.

I can easily have a sense of what's coming. It's like a laser beam because it truly happens that fast. I never have to sit there and logically dissect the situation, I just get an instant instinct which is probably based on patterns but it's hard to know for sure because it's not a thought-out process. This also presents some problems when asked to explain it. A lot of times I think it would be easier to be so "naive" and open about the future and I'll go through times of intentionally trying to be, but it doesn't come naturally.

the problem is that sometimes it doesn't and EIE's passionate predictions of doom can be quite illogical too. Also they can ignore many situations when their predictions didn't happen while still claiming to have a superpowerful intuition that is always right.

Apart from that, when it comes to predictions about people ime EIEs sometimes fail to recognize how their own behaviour influences the situation when a bad prediction about someone makes someone behave badly in the end. Not because the EIE has recognized the real nature of that person, but bc the EIE was provoking and being shitty themselves (looking for a LSI-like responce maybe? ; ) ). On the other hand, if the person is EIE's favourite, their intution will interpret a lot to their advantage and as being on the same page even in situations when they are not (which happened to me a few times, with EIE that liked me giving speeches about how she could intuit what I was thinking / feeling in different situations - and according to her I was thinking and feeling like her O.o although often it was not the case at all and it was quite puzzling to hear. but she was so trusting and passionate about her predictions!

Example of how this plays out IME in unhealthy cases (combined with weak Te): my EIE manager didn't like my co-worker (and always suspecting her to do something behind his back when in reality she was really ok). Once he saw her in another room chatting to some people (who were clients) and for some reason started complaining to the rest of workers and second manager that she was receiving private friends at work during worktime. wtf? he was the boss there and he was perfectly entitled to go and ask what was going on (especially if it was so obviously against the workplace rules) instead of spreading false accusations based on his general dislike and expecting the worse of her. Then she came back and he didn't ask about it to verify if his suspicions were true at all.

Of course EIEs intuition is generally good and they are often right, but they can get carried away too, especially the unhealthy ones and sometimes loose touch with what is really behind the actions they think they managed to see through.

[bolong]

the problem is that sometimes it doesn't and EIE's passionate predictions of doom can be quite illogical too. Also they can ignore many situations when their predictions didn't happen while still claiming to have a superpowerful intuition that is always right.

Apart from that, when it comes to predictions about people ime EIEs sometimes fail to recognize how their own behaviour influences the situation when a bad prediction about someone makes someone behave badly in the end. Not because the EIE has recognized the real nature of that person, but bc the EIE was provoking and being shitty themselves (looking for a LSI-like responce maybe? ; ) ). On the other hand, if the person is EIE's favourite, their intution will interpret a lot to their advantage and as being on the same page even in situations when they are not (which happened to me a few times, with EIE that liked me giving speeches about how she could intuit what I was thinking / feeling in different situations - and according to her I was thinking and feeling like her O.o although often it was not the case at all and it was quite puzzling to hear. but she was so trusting and passionate about her predictions!

Example of how this plays out IME in unhealthy cases (combined with weak Te): my EIE manager didn't like my co-worker (and always suspecting her to do something behind his back when in reality she was really ok). Once he saw her in another room chatting to some people (who were clients) and for some reason started complaining to the rest of workers and second manager that she was receiving private friends at work during worktime. wtf? he was the boss there and he was perfectly entitled to go and ask what was going on (especially if it was so obviously against the workplace rules) instead of spreading false accusations based on his general dislike and expecting the worse of her. Then she came back and he didn't ask about it to verify if his suspicions were true at all.

Of course EIEs intuition is generally good and they are often right, but they can get carried away too, especially the unhealthy ones and sometimes loose touch with what is really behind the actions they think they managed to see through.

YES. SO. TRUE.

I wish EIEs would come in here and read this non-threatening reflection of themselves in anonymity, it would help them so much without making them feel attacked and defensive, which is how they respond irl. There are a huge number of EIEs in the world, multiple representatives of the type in almost any setting, and all of them going around misjudging people's intentions and falsely predicting doom.

That being said I do know a few healthy EIEs, who are really very delightful to be around.

[consentingadult]

SE IS NOT FORCE FOR FUCKS SAKE

I love it when you talk dirty, it turns me on!

[Beautiful sky]

I love it when you talk dirty, it turns me on!

I'm going to cloan me send her over to give you the most pleasurable experience you've ever had in your life then walk away and evaporate forever so that hopefully It will quite you for a while lol. The real me will be performing those things to someone else

[consentingadult]

...hopefully It will quite you for a while lol...

Not a chance!

[Marietta]

YES. SO. TRUE.

I wish EIEs would come in here and read this non-threatening reflection of themselves in anonymity, it would help them so much without making them feel attacked and defensive, which is how they respond irl..

Do you believe it would work? In case of the ones I know, I'm afraid they might be a bit beyond repair there, haha ^.^ . But yeah, as much as they are interpersonally skilled and talented people, I find this kind of behaviour to be manipulating and destructive. Precisely because they are good with people, they can also be good at brainwashing many into their way of interpreting things and this can create a lot of shit when they happen to be wrong (which leaves EIE even more confused in the end). They really need their logically cold and stable LSIs to get real !