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Thread: POLR vs Suggestive

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    Default POLR vs Suggestive

    How do you tell these two apart ? I know one is a producing function and the other is an accepting, does that mean POLR is more visible to other people than the suggestive, that sort of waits for its cue from others?

    Say you have an LSI and an SLI, both have 1D Ne and 1D Fe, but the LSI has Fe suggestive and Ne POLR, the SLI has Ne suggestive and Fe POLR. At first glance how could you distinguish these people, based solely on Ne and Fe use?

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    You want more of the Suggestive, and want to avoid the PoLR at all costs (and use your Mobilising in stead.)
    At first glance, the LSI with Fe suggestive, will be drawn to positive emotional atmospheres, and with Ne PoLR will ignore alternate ways of thinking. The SLI with Ne suggestive, will be drawn to novel ideas and approaches, and will avoid situations where they are expected to emote and discuss feelings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Martrix View Post
    ...and with Ne PoLR will ignore alternate ways of thinking....
    This is not quite true: LSI can be open to alternative ways of thinking, provided it does not truly clash with what they already know (cognitive dissonance), or if such alternative ways of thinking produce positive effects for their suggestive function, i.e. brings Fe benefits.

    From my (IEE) perspective, LSIs do not want to be confronted with information or knowledge that they feel makes them lose control or harms their (perceived) interests. Now from a Social Psychology perspective, this would apply to all types, but with LSIs it gos to the extreme, there is only one way, i.e. their own way, and it is extremely hard to change that position (and their attitudes and behavior). Unless, like I already said, it brings other clear benefits. Such benefits must be immediately delivered, or the LSI won't be able to accept the alternative ways of thinking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    This is not quite true: LSI can be open to alternative ways of thinking, provided it does not truly clash with what they already know (cognitive dissonance), or if such alternative ways of thinking produce positive effects for their suggestive function, i.e. brings Fe benefits.

    From my (IEE) perspective, LSIs do not want to be confronted with information or knowledge that they feel makes them lose control or harms their (perceived) interests. Now from a Social Psychology perspective, this would apply to all types, but with LSIs it gos to the extreme, there is only one way, i.e. their own way, and it is extremely hard to change that position (and their attitudes and behavior). Unless, like I already said, it brings other clear benefits. Such benefits must be immediately delivered, or the LSI won't be able to accept the alternative ways of thinking.
    what do you mean by immediately delivered? and what about polr Ni vs suggestive Ni (as in ESEs and SEEs) ?

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    LSI will avoid realizing the consequences of their actions pertaining to the bigger picture of the external situations, they will disrupt harmony in such things in favor of keeping harmony of their internal self, making sure actions line up with who they are which is usually derived from what their mission is and yes this can manifest as ignoring alternate ways of doing things because why should they think about alternatives, this w/e will get the job done and it lines up with their path
    on first glance you would know based on Fe the LSI will be more responsive to such things and the SLI not so much, now the LSI wont be too much more responsive outwardly but you should be able to tell if your flattery is having a positive affect or an awkward affect the later being towards a SLI
    now for Ne thats weird to see on first glance because it will be more of a lifestyle thing like we have already noted bringing up such things as world news may give you a clue to how they feel about fulling grasping the external situation

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    what do you mean by immediately delivered? and what about polr Ni vs suggestive Ni (as in ESEs and SEEs) ?
    Suppose you would want to convince an LSI of an alternative way of looking at something. This would best be delivered in an Fe package. Fe is the goody the LSI is looking for (see here). Properly gift-wrapped an LSI can be convinced of many things. A "promise" of future rewards does not motivate an LSI, especially since their Ni-Mobilizing function has their future already outlined in clear detail for them. Any alternative path, as provided by Ne insights, by them is perceived as a threat to their interests.

    I wrote about the PoLR Ni of LSEs on my blog, basically the same applies to ESEs:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-and-polr.html

    As to suggestive Ni in SEEs, I lack substantial empirical knowledge, so I can not answer.
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    IP v. IJ is usually pretty easy to spot.

    PolR is easier, if only because its always linked to the creative, and people always make use of their creative around others. SLI Te can make these people seem stoic as they listen; the SLI-Si less so. LSI Se creative can take the form of controlling their surroundings. I know an LSI that likes to leave the impression of "dominant" when he's around groups. A little more boastful and "Alpha". Another LSI makes himself clean or move around when he's not being influenced by Fe in the environment. An SLI is more lax, typically.

    I dont know. A good judge is to look up how much space they take up. IP's are contained, and IJ's take up more. You can't touch an IP without them noticing. An IJ can touch someone and not realize.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Suppose you would want to convince an LSI of an alternative way of looking at something. This would best be delivered in an Fe package. Fe is the goody the LSI is looking for (see here). Properly gift-wrapped an LSI can be convinced of many things. A "promise" of future rewards does not motivate an LSI, especially since their Ni-Mobilizing function has their future already outlined in clear detail for them. Any alternative path, as provided by Ne insights, by them is perceived as a threat to their interests.

    I wrote about the PoLR Ni of LSEs on my blog, basically the same applies to ESEs:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...-and-polr.html

    As to suggestive Ni in SEEs, I lack substantial empirical knowledge, so I can not answer.
    Ok that makes sense. Fe serves as a sort of lubricant then (lol). One more question, say you want to convince an LSI of something new but have zero Fe (maybe you're the SLI in the first example), how would you do it? Would it have to be through Ti pure unassailable logic? Or could you directly use Ni, without packaging it in Fe (The way an ILI may do use it for instance) ?

    One last thing, I've heard Ti being described as "perfection", what do you think of this description? And if so, are LSI's with Ti dom trying to be 'perfect' in their own eyes?
    Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 06-07-2014 at 03:16 AM.

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    In my experience the vulnerable function isn't visible, it's something that is completely ignored. The suggestive tends to manifest in ways that would more typically fit the vulnerable description namely it's a conscious point of focus, and a very painful one. It's very hard to improve your suggestive function no matter how much you'd like to better process information related to it. To face and recognize this weakness in your own life is very dificult. In some ways I could understand why you'd simply want someone else to handle areas related to it.

    To summarize; vulnerable is regarded as completely irrelevant, suggestive is so painful that you try not to think about it, but on some level know you should.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    IP v. IJ is usually pretty easy to spot.

    PolR is easier, if only because its always linked to the creative, and people always make use of their creative around others. SLI Te can make these people seem stoic as they listen; the SLI-Si less so. LSI Se creative can take the form of controlling their surroundings. I know an LSI that likes to leave the impression of "dominant" when he's around groups. A little more boastful and "Alpha". Another LSI makes himself clean or move around when he's not being influenced by Fe in the environment. An SLI is more lax, typically.

    I dont know. A good judge is to look up how much space they take up. IP's are contained, and IJ's take up more. You can't touch an IP without them noticing. An IJ can touch someone and not realize.
    Oh that's very good, thankyou. I've noticed that myself about IP's, they are very conscious of being touched, even when they appear distracted.
    Also, I'm guessing SLIs need Ne in their environment as much as LSIs need Fe, but what does this mean exactly? And if the LSI is off cleaning and moving around when not being influenced by Fe, what does the SLI do in the absence of Ne?
    Last edited by ConcreteButterfly; 06-07-2014 at 03:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    In my experience the vulnerable function isn't visible, it's something that is completely ignored. The suggestive tends to manifest in ways that would more typically fit the vulnerable description namely it's a conscious point of focus, and a very painful one. It's very hard to improve your suggestive function no matter how much you'd like to better process information related to it. To face and recognize this weakness in your own life is very dificult. In some ways I could understand why you'd simply want someone else to handle areas related to it.

    To summarize; vulnerable is regarded as completely irrelevant, suggestive is so painful that you try not to think about it, but on some level know you should.
    Ok, maybe we could classify vulnerable as something that only hurts from the "outside", when other people bring it up, and the suggestive hurts from the inside out, as in you're focusing on it a lot internally even when the external world ignores it.
    Why do you say you can't improve your suggestive though? It likely will never be as strong as your leading functions, but that doesn't mean you can't stretch it beyond its usual parameters through conscious intent... right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    Oh that's very good, thankyou. I've noticed that myself about IP's, they are very conscious of being touched, even when they appear distracted.
    Also, I'm guessing SLIs need Ne in their environment as much as LSIs need Fe, but what does this mean exactly? And if the LSI is off cleaning and moving around when not being influenced by Fe, what does the SLI do in the absence of Ne?
    Sit and think.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    Regarding my polr, I find that I really notice Si valuing in other people, almost like a radar. And I don't enjoy listening to Si valuing conversation. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this about their polr.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Regarding my polr, I find that I really notice Si valuing in other people, almost like a radar. And I don't enjoy listening to Si valuing conversation. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this about their polr.
    Yeah I've noticed Ti valuing in others very quickly, I think you're right, people have a super sensitive radar for POLR related info. And it's even anticipatory, you notice it's going to be an issue in advance and sort of brace yourself for it. Suggestive info, by contrast, seems to be overlooked a lot of the time even when you're trying to notice it.

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    Role and PolR are conscious functions, so it would make sense to be aware of that when you see/hear it.
    I would say that ethically you are still supposed to act as if you have unilateral responsibility; but simultaneously you have to be able to see the other as a fully autonomous, free, aware person.

    Medicalizing social problems has the additional benefit of rendering society not responsible for those social ills. If it’s a disease, it’s nobody’s fault. Yay empiricism.

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    *deleted* I based my answer on my perceived type, but mistyped myself lol (and sorry!)
    Last edited by kraut; 06-08-2014 at 07:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    One more question, say you want to convince an LSI of something new but have zero Fe (maybe you're the SLI in the first example), how would you do it?
    I wouldn't know. LSIs and I make each other walk on eggshells, so interacting with them is not exactly a learning experience, unless knowing how not to get burned counts as a learning experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    One last thing, I've heard Ti being described as "perfection", what do you think of this description? And if so, are LSI's with Ti dom trying to be 'perfect' in their own eyes?
    It is indeed a form of perfection, as all rational functions are, especially when used as a leading or mobilizing function. Perfectionism is best understood through its pathological manifestations as described e.g. by the Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder (not to be confused with OCD - Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), or even better, through the so-called Unrelenting Standards Schema as described by psychologist Jeffrey E. Young et.al.:

    "The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.
    Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and “shoulds” in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished."
    (source: http://www.schematherapy.com/id73.htm)

    From such descriptions you should be able to interpolate back to healthier forms of perfectionism.

    The perfectionism of LSIs is to be found in the creation of ideal social structures, ideal in their eyes that is. The first example that comes to mind, is a scene from America's Hardest Prisons. In one of the episodes there was a female LSI inmate who was basically running the show and in control of all dealings of contraband that went on there. In order to get prison personnel of her back, she believed she had to make sure her cell was impeccably tidy, very much like in the military, and she actively enforced that the other inmates within her reach adhered to the same standards, also with respect to their personal conduct. It is the LSI way to avoid surprises. Or so they think....
    Last edited by consentingadult; 06-07-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    Ok, maybe we could classify vulnerable as something that only hurts from the "outside", when other people bring it up, and the suggestive hurts from the inside out, as in you're focusing on it a lot internally even when the external world ignores it.
    Why do you say you can't improve your suggestive though? It likely will never be as strong as your leading functions, but that doesn't mean you can't stretch it beyond its usual parameters through conscious intent... right?
    Oh you certainly can improve it, it's just not the norm. People face their fears all the time, this isn't really different from that in principle. The difference being it's an internal aspect of who you are instead of say spiders or something that would be slightly more trivial to deal with.

    So you're absolutely right, if you try and focus, yes you can improve your suggestive function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Regarding my polr, I find that I really notice Si valuing in other people, almost like a radar. And I don't enjoy listening to Si valuing conversation. I wonder if anyone else has noticed this about their polr.
    I'm curious: what does an Si conversation sound like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I'm curious: what does an Si conversation sound like?
    what you should eat, how you should dress the right way to keep cold away, how you should sleep to make the best of your hours of rest (body position, angle of pillow and all the sexy jazz), how you should take care of the health of your organism, making your environment comfortable etc.. Dunno about EIE (I only noticed some people I know by far immerse in work and don't give shit about bodily comfort and stuff), but in LIEs I've seen it as:

    - disdain for a 'minimalist' take on life (in the sense of being satisfied with little and submitting to the immediate demands for comfort of the body instead of having a more 'noble' longer-term goal in mind - hates to just sit there and relax, prefers to ignore immediate well-being for future rewards)
    - a bit of lack of know-how when it comes to fashion, clothing, home design aesthetics (here LIE invests financially, but relies on others when it comes to good ideas)
    - social mockery at Si conversational content e.g. how the LIE was on the verge of sleeping with a woman, but how he imperatively kicked her out after she said she doesn't have to shower when they arrived at his place after a heavy bout of dancing in a club ..you get the idea. I found it disgusting, but I noticed how the the LIE was approaching Si content in a rather clumsy way.
    Last edited by Amber; 06-07-2014 at 04:05 PM.

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    This is a really great thread!
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    what you should eat, how you should dress the right way to keep cold away, how you should sleep to make the best of your hours of rest (body position, angle of pillow and all the sexy jazz), how you should take care of the health of your organism, making your environment comfortable etc.. Dunno about EIE (I only noticed some people I know by far immerse in work and don't give shit about bodily comfort and stuff), but in LIEs I've seen it as:
    I'll sometimes end up talking about Si-related things because other people bring it up, but I wonder if I actually find that sort of information engaging. It's just inevitable around some people. It's rarely anything in-depth or lifestyle-oriented, which is where I'll probably tune out. My attitude towards taking care of 'comfort' in general seems like more of an impulse, or practicality, and less about equanimity as an end in of itself. Or at least that's not how I rationalize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    what you should eat, how you should dress the right way to keep cold away, how you should sleep to make the best of your hours of rest (body position, angle of pillow and all the sexy jazz), how you should take care of the health of your organism, making your environment comfortable etc..
    Those are pretty lame discussion topics indeed. That being said, during the cold days in winter I always wear long thermal underwear. I can really recommend that. In winter I see all my fellow Dutchmen and -women on their bicycles, shivering with cold in their thin jeans or skirts, why would anyone want to suffer like that? That's crazy! Also, when it's cold you can also keep your face from freezing by applying a really thin layer of paraffin/Vaseline. Works great against the cold, especially on cold windy days when you have to ride to work by bicycle.

    ^^^^ guess this would count as an Si conversation? The paraffin/vaseline tip was given to me by an SEE, by the way ;-)
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    quick run down
    think of polr as in neglect in realizing even from an outside source and suggestive as obtain or seek from other then yourself (obviously sense we know whats going on you can work on this function but i would argue not to work on giving this function but to work or receiving this properly so to speak for example if your Ti dom dont be too closed off from Fe but dont be too easily wooed by it either) (and for polr just dont be a jerk when someone offers you it its rude not to accept a gift)

    Si (plor) see improving quality as improving small things that are a waste of time
    (suggestive) like it when the quality of something is the best it can be but have a hard time determining and making it such

    Se (plor) neglect realizing the psychical form of something and what it possesses
    (suggestive) having a hard time doing it themselves, like it when form is pointed out and used

    Ni (polr) dont think or care about the internal script which something is run accordingly to
    (suggestive) have interest in keeping things to the script but lack an awareness and consistency in such matters so appreciate outside evaluation for what it is and how to keep it

    Ne polr dont take into consideration what other out of view consequences may take place in response to actions they avoid to fully comprehend the entirety of the external situation (suggestive) have trouble yet like others who point out what is and keep the external situation stable

    Te (polr) neglect to evaluate and see outside evaluation of what order should be should be like, as bullcrap (suggestive) Appreciate it when others set targets for productive activity and provide active guidance as to how to accomplish such goals

    Ti (polr) neglect fully structuring their thoughts/ideas into easily understandable phrase and dont care much to realize things that arent easily understood
    (suggestive) have trouble with understanding things and organizing their thoughts so they like it when others can help them or things are already easily understood

    Fi (polr) ignore determining the exact status of a relationship and have trouble keeping certain statuses (yes this means we dont just break off randomly we sometimes unknowingly get closer then we want to be)
    (suggestive) like people who easily create comfortable (not too close but not to far) bonds with them

    Fe (polr) rarely ever consider and even avoid people who openly express their disposition (think as in laughing at everything you say) towards them seeing it as hard to tell weather or not someone is displaying truthful attitudes
    (suggestive) have trouble creating positive moods towards themselves in others so they seek out environments where the general attitude towards others is a positive one
    Last edited by trifling nincompoop; 06-07-2014 at 09:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5dolladogsoup View Post
    Te (suggestive) have trouble yet like people who are good at evaluating creating and keeping order (order as in a state in which everything is in its correct or appropriate place.)
    Most of your definitions are good, but this one is wrong. What you are describing here is basically the ideal Mobilizing Si state, which results from "productive" activity (Te):

    ...Si and Te are also important to EIIs in the realization of their goals, but in a different way: the ultimate existential goal of EIIs is to arrive at a state of harmony with the physical environment, both inside and outside of their bodies....Contrary to IEEs, Si is the ultimate goal, not a means to that goal. The means to that goal is being productive, which, of course, also requires good procedural knowledge....What is needed, of course, is an LSE that provides the targets that serve as an incentive for action as well as the knowledge for successfully and efficiently carrying out procedures, which ultimately allows the EII to arrive in a state of flow, where everything runs smooth and they arrive at a state of harmony with themselves and the environment....

    Long story short: where IEEs need to be relaxed first in order to be productive, EIIs need to be productive first in order to get relaxed. SLIs provide a relaxed and undemanding environment to IEEs, whereas LSEs provide a productive and smoothly operating environment to EIIs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JWC3 View Post
    In my experience the vulnerable function isn't visible, it's something that is completely ignored. The suggestive tends to manifest in ways that would more typically fit the vulnerable description namely it's a conscious point of focus, and a very painful one. It's very hard to improve your suggestive function no matter how much you'd like to better process information related to it. To face and recognize this weakness in your own life is very dificult. In some ways I could understand why you'd simply want someone else to handle areas related to it.

    To summarize; vulnerable is regarded as completely irrelevant, suggestive is so painful that you try not to think about it, but on some level know you should.
    This describes my relationship with my XSTx dad, especially in the past. He dislikes how I discuss hypotheticals for their own sake and either dismisses the ideas outright, or brings the conversation back to what I should be thinking about (usually other issues and stuff at hand). After some 20 years, I now recognize the importance of his advice and it seems like he's become more sympathetic in return.

    Absurd: You Ti dominants sure say things I don't really know where to put.
    labtard: fml
    Absurd: Hah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Most of your definitions are good, but this one is wrong. What you are describing here is basically the ideal Mobilizing Si state
    how would you describe Te suggestive
    btw i chose a different def for order that seems to fit better still kinda wonky tho
    Last edited by trifling nincompoop; 06-07-2014 at 09:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5dolladogsoup View Post

    (suggestive) dont ass kiss but love it when theirs is (think of Fe as agreeableness)
    lmao

    I think you´re generalizing btw - Beta Fe suggestive likes a more mobilizing, provocative and aggressive kinda Fe poured on them .. but this, of course, if done by EIE solely with the purpose of pleasing the Ti base, could be considered to be ass kissing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rosewood View Post
    lmao

    I think you´re generalizing btw - Beta Fe suggestive likes a more mobilizing, provocative and aggressive kinda Fe poured on them .. but this, of course, if done by EIE solely with the purpose of pleasing the Ti base, could be considered to be ass kissing.
    my thingy was definitely based on first encounters and one particular experience with a really big twitchtv channel where everyone in the chat was typing lol and shit after everything a LSI said the ass kissing was blatant im pretty sure people were mocking him and he still loved it lol
    thx for the criticism tho changed it btw
    Last edited by trifling nincompoop; 06-07-2014 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5dolladogsoup View Post
    how would you describe Te suggestive
    "Appreciate it when others set targets for productive activity and provide active guidance as to how to accomplish such goals"

    Note that this should be taken as broadly as possible, e.g. in a romantic relationship, such activity would involve "working" together on realizing common (material) life goals and values.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    "Appreciate it when others set targets for productive activity and provide active guidance as to how to accomplish such goals"

    Note that this should be taken as broadly as possible, e.g. in a romantic relationship, such activity would involve "working" together on realizing common (material) life goals and values.
    thx and i stole it just so you know

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5dolladogsoup View Post
    thx and i stole it just so you know
    Last edited by consentingadult; 06-08-2014 at 12:21 AM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    I was thinking that there is also a relationship between the Suggestive and PoLR functions. First of all it is pretty obvious that the moment your Suggestive needs are being met, you typically are not dealing with aspects related to your PoLR.

    But what is more important: having to deal a lot with aspects of your PoLR, in effect result in huge frustration of your Suggestive needs. E.g. when an IEE has to deal with PoLR information (e.g. being confined to a restricted set of conduct), this translates into physical discomfort and physical tension, in effect immobilizing the individual. For an SEE having to deal with Ti-PoLR does not so much lead to an incapacitating physical response, their form of despair is more likely to be found in no longer seeing a way out and turning nihilistic and having an incorrect understanding of the situation (whereas an IEE would be able to think of ways out, although not capitalizing on such insights). For an IEE the stress is largely physical, for an SEE it is largely mental.

    So basically there are, abstractly speaking, three modes in which your Suggestive function can find itself: being fed, not being addressed or dealt with (the neutral state) and being frustrated. I hypothesize that having to deal with your PoLR a lot, has the effect of actively frustrating your Suggestive needs and immobilizes you. I need to think about it some more if this is generally true for all types.

    Any thoughts are welcome.

    ETA: I was thinking of the following effects:

    Ti: having to comply with rigid systems of conduct
    IEE: results in physical distress (physical unbalance, muscular tension)
    SEE: results in mental distress (mental unbalance? being caught in thought patters where blame is shifted to other people, even paranoid thinking?)

    Fi-PoLR: having to take into account and respect the needs, interests and boundaries of other people:
    ILE: results in physical distress (physical unbalance)
    SLE: results in mental distress (mental instability? being caught in thought patters where blame is shifted to other people, even paranoid thinking?)

    With less confidence:

    Se-PoLR: being forced into action by other people, having to deal with goals that are not understood, with a lack of guidance.
    EII: results in ineffective and inefficient activity, making errors, screwing things up.
    LII: results and inappropriate emotional expression, easily alienating people.
    Last edited by consentingadult; 06-08-2014 at 12:42 PM.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I was thinking that there is also a relationship between the Suggestive and PoLR functions. First of all it is pretty obvious that the moment your Suggestive needs are being met, you typically are not dealing with aspects related to your PoLR.

    But what is more important: having to deal a lot with aspects of your PoLR, in effect result in huge frustration of your Suggestive needs. E.g. when an IEE has to deal with PoLR information (e.g. being confined to a restricted set of conduct), this translates into physical discomfort and physical tension, in effect immobilizing the individual. For an SEE having to deal with Ti-PoLR does not so much lead to an incapacitating physical response, their form of despair is more likely to be found in no longer seeing a way out and turning nihilistic and having an incorrect understanding of the situation (whereas an IEE would be able to think of ways out, although not capitalizing on such insights). For an IEE the stress is largely physical, for an SEE it is largely mental.

    So basically there are, abstractly speaking, three modes in which your Suggestive function can find itself: being fed, not being addressed or dealt with (the neutral state) and being frustrated. I hypothesize that having to deal with your PoLR a lot, has the effect of actively frustrating your Suggestive needs and immobilizes you. I need to think about it some more if this is generally true for all types.

    Any thoughts are welcome.

    ETA: I was thinking of the following effects:

    Ti: having to comply with rigid systems of conduct
    IEE: results in physical distress (physical unbalance, muscular tension)
    SEE: results in mental distress (mental unbalance? being caught in thought patters where blame is shifted to other people, even paranoid thinking?)

    Fi-PoLR: having to take into account and respect the needs, interests and boundaries of other people:
    ILE: results in physical distress (physical unbalance)
    SLE: results in mental distress (mental instability? being caught in thought patters where blame is shifted to other people, even paranoid thinking?)

    With less confidence:

    Se-PoLR: being forced into action by other people, having to deal with goals that are not understood, with a lack of guidance.
    EII: results in ineffective and inefficient activity, making errors, screwing things up.
    LII: results and inappropriate emotional expression, easily alienating people.
    Yes!! About the EII one. I get angry when others force me into doing things, but I can't really stop them efficiently. But I don't think it results in ineffective behavior necessarily; it brings me resentment and less inner peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Becca View Post
    Yes!! About the EII one. I get angry when others force me into doing things, but I can't really stop them efficiently. But I don't think it results in ineffective behavior necessarily; it brings me resentment and less inner peace.
    I think you're right. Just as I was cycling to a concert, I got the feeling my conclusions about EII were not right. Like I said, I need to give it some more thought.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Those are pretty lame discussion topics indeed. That being said, during the cold days in winter I always wear long thermal underwear. I can really recommend that. In winter I see all my fellow Dutchmen and -women on their bicycles, shivering with cold in their thin jeans or skirts, why would anyone want to suffer like that? That's crazy! Also, when it's cold you can also keep your face from freezing by applying a really thin layer of paraffin/Vaseline. Works great against the cold, especially on cold windy days when you have to ride to work by bicycle.

    ^^^^ guess this would count as an Si conversation? The paraffin/vaseline tip was given to me by an SEE, by the way ;-)
    Just to clarify, I dont mind making occasional small talk about the very good examples provided by @rosewood. I am even happy to pass on helpful Si tips if I happen to have relevant ones. I also enjoy not being uncomfortable. But after a certain point, I want the conversation to move on, or the activity to change to a non-Si focus. I like to help people, so little Si tips can be a great way to do that. But my brother won't stop monolog ing about his insomnia, his bad teeth, his other health woes, etc. It's like I can't solve the problem so I just want to get away after a while.

    I posted a thread a while back about vacationjng at the beach with my delta friends who didn't want the wind to mess up there hair, or to get sandy, etc. They had to have their little water bottles with them at all times so they wouldn't get thirsty. They were too concerned with self protection, after 2 days they were driving me crazy.

    I have a cousin who I love who prides himself on his refinement and won't shut up about the best food and the best-fitting clothes, the most relaxing vacation, etc. I just can't buy into all of that at once. It is too much. I do like all of those things, I just dont want to sit around and talk about it 24/7.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Just to clarify, I dont mind making occasional small talk about the very good examples provided by @rosewood. I am even happy to pass on helpful Si tips if I happen to have relevant ones. I also enjoy not being uncomfortable. But after a certain point, I want the conversation to move on, or the activity to change to a non-Si focus. I like to help people, so little Si tips can be a great way to do that. But my brother won't stop monolog ing about his insomnia, his bad teeth, his other health woes, etc. It's like I can't solve the problem so I just want to get away after a while.

    I posted a thread a while back about vacationjng at the beach with my delta friends who didn't want the wind to mess up there hair, or to get sandy, etc. They had to have their little water bottles with them at all times so they wouldn't get thirsty. They were too concerned with self protection, after 2 days they were driving me crazy.

    I have a cousin who I love who prides himself on his refinement and won't shut up about the best food and the best-fitting clothes, the most relaxing vacation, etc. I just can't buy into all of that at once. It is too much. I do like all of those things, I just dont want to sit around and talk about it 24/7.
    I agree with all of this. It all seems superficial and irrelevant to me and I'm afraid I'm not as tolerant as you. I find myself initially wanting to roll my eyes when confronted with this type of thing and as the "conversation" (more like monologue) moves along, I want to slap the person . What do you do in this situation? I typically find a way to cut the topic off and move the conversation in a different direction, but some people are quite persistent. It's like they're unaware of how they're coming across.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirena View Post
    I agree with all of this. It all seems superficial and irrelevant to me and I'm afraid I'm not as tolerant as you. I find myself initially wanting to roll my eyes when confronted with this type of thing and as the "conversation" (more like monologue) moves along, I want to slap the person . What do you do in this situation? I typically find a way to cut the topic off and move the conversation in a different direction, but some people are quite persistent. It's like they're unaware of how they're coming across.
    It made me feel oddly comforted to read your post!

    I am working on some adaptive strategies for upcoming Alpha/Delta visits. I can't avoid these people, they are coming to see me: the ILE with his Si dual seeking, and the LSE schooling me with his Si instruction. Too bad they are not coming at the same time, they might enjoy visiting with each other!

    Usually I just sit and endlessly listen til I am totally glazed over. I was brought up never to say anything not nice. (We got in big trouble for breaking that rule. So I never learned how to be really honest in conversations. ) I think I am going to try to engage the LSE with politics, and the ILE with cooking and travel. I will report back the results at the first opportunity.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    From my perspective
    • Lexicon: when discussing actions and joint activities they use expressions such as "From my point of view", "According to my understanding", "To my knowledge", "personal criteria", "it corresponds to my understanding" "I have concluded" "he insisted" and so on. They describe verbal communication in detail—how their intervention in the situation is transpiring or why it's not happening.



    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    (IEE)
    doubt it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    It made me feel oddly comforted to read your post!


    I am working on some adaptive strategies for upcoming Alpha/Delta visits. I can't avoid these people, they are coming to see me: the ILE with his Si dual seeking, and the LSE schooling me with his Si instruction. Too bad they are not coming at the same time, they might enjoy visiting with each other!

    Usually I just sit and endlessly listen til I am totally glazed over. I was brought up never to say anything not nice. (We got in big trouble for breaking that rule. So I never learned how to be really honest in conversations. ) I think I am going to try to engage the LSE with politics, and the ILE with cooking and travel. I will report back the results at the first opportunity.
    I was also brought up to act differently from my natural predisposition so I can relate. I also have to brace myself when I know I will be interacting in this way. I actually have an ILE cousin who I get along with really well, I just ignore his Si seeking (he knows what he can and can't expect from me) and we relate really well on Fe/Ti. Our interactions are mostly sporadic though, and we have realistic expectations of each other, so it seems to work.

    Let us know how your visits work out!

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