IEI-ILE Illusionary/Mirage Relations (INFp & ENTp)

[yeves]

how do relationships between them usually go? any stories to share?

[DollPart]

I used to date an ILE... The relationship goes well when you just joke around and talk about non serious stuff, but as soon as you try to talk seriously with them and share some real thoughts they turn out to be agressivly protective of their own selves. It just leads to hours and hours of meaningless arguments.

[Maker of helmets]

Hello friends,

I am interesting in your thoughts concerning INFp-ENTp mirage relations.

In terms of primary strengths (S), primary weaknesses (W), and hidden agenda (HA):
INFp is Ni Fe (S) - Si Te (W) - Ti (HA)
ENTp is Ne Ti (S) - Se Fi (W) - Fe (HA)

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on these mirage relations between INFp and ENTp.

From some other threads I have read online, what both need is care from Si/Se, whereas what they can share with each other is leading Ni/Ne functions, so there is something there, but also something missing, and therefore there is some potential for "missing" each other in communication - that is, failing to connect in each other's way of thinking. Maybe also potential for frustration, when neither is especially adept at providing for Si/Se. (One thought I just had was this: if you have Si/Se provided for by others, say an ISFj, ISFp, or ESFj, then would this remove at least some of the potential for frustration in this particular set of relations, because you are provided for in Si/Se through your relations with some other person in your life, say a friend or parent?)

I am open to opening up the discussion on whatever occurs to you in relation to these personalities/this set of relations!

I look forward to your responses. If there is any discussion, I hope it's constructive and enlightening, as well as mutually beneficial for me and others.

Thank you friends!

[mu4]

Mirage relations are good but they can go thru periods of stagnation. I think from my observation sensor mirage relationships seem more stable, where as intuitive ones easily disappear. It seems to be a good intellectual relationship but the material circumstances to keep it together aren't there.

[PistolShrimp]

I've been in an IEI-ILE relationship for over three years now, and it's still going strong. I believe I am Ni-subtype and he is Ne-subtype. What we share is Fe/Ti. Ni and Ne aren't really shared often, as I don't value Ne much, and he doesn't value Ni. However, I can understand and respect Ne for the most part, even if I don't subconsciously seek it out or whatever. No, it's not *~DUALITY~*, but we get along great and have similar views and goals. Communication is pretty smooth overall, too.

I think I'm pretty good at telling when he needs Si, and he can tell when I need an Se push to get going on something. Yes we can have periods of stagnation as point stated, but I think most relationships have this regardless of type. It's just a matter of whether the members of the relationship can work together to remedy problems faced.

Overall, I find the description about the relationship being deactivating and relaxing to be true. This is usually a good thing since we hang out after work and need to unwind, but when we want to go out or agree on doing something it can be hard at times. This particular "flavor" of relationship is really good for me right now as I deal with health issues. My ILE knows that I need to rest and is fine with just staying in and watching TV with me, whereas I feel that an SLE would keep pushing me to do things like my SLE dad does. His answer for all of my problems is that I need to work out. I have enough Se provided by my father and SEE coworkers, and my bf has Si provided by several of his ESE and SEI friends, so perhaps that helps keep us from getting frustrated with each other, but I'm not sure it's a huge deal.

Not really sure what else to say, but if anyone has any more questions about this particular relationship I'd be happy to answer them.

[bolong]

Went really badly for me, but that might be because I was Se starved, no SLE dad or SEE coworkers. I definitely want Se at home more than I want it at work.

I find that ILE, being the extraverted one, pushes too much on the IEI to be more like what they want. And IEI is not really affected by it, because the pressure is not on any weak points, it's just annoying.

[Maker of helmets]

Hello friends,

So I'm wondering, in the absence of Si- or Se-providing co-workers, friends, or family members, would it be possible to try and provide a semblance of Si or Se for one another through some other means, for example through nurturing one another's hidden agenda function?

In the case of ILE-IEI relations, each person could invest in nurturing the other's hidden agenda function (Fe and Ti respectively), which is their own creative function... In this sense, you would recognise that Si and Se are technically "lacking" in relations with one another, and yet simultaneously you would try your best to make something from your relative strengths, and provide for one another in improvised ways, which may not seem obvious or intuitive to an onlooker, but nevertheless constitute some kind of resolution to the potential weakness inherent in this set of relations (weakness in the sense that you are unlikely to be able to provide directly for one another in Si or Se).

Alternatively, if either party were to purposefully develop their own demonstrative function, which is the Point of Least Resistance for the other, maybe this would also be a way of "providing" for the other person; in this instance, it would be ILE developing their Te (Point of Least Resistance for IEI), and IEI developing their Fi (Point of Least Resistance for ILE). This would mean you are purposefully developing an otherwise naturally weak or hidden function in yourself, so that you can help the other, because it is an even weaker function for the other person - in fact their most vulnerable function.

No matter what else is said on this topic, it would seem clear that mirage relations are not going to work if the will to adapt to one another is hidden or compromised by other issues and insecurities, and this stand-off is probably worsened greatly in the absence of Si- or Se-providing co-workers, friends, or family members.

I'm looking forward to continuing the conversation if anything else occurs to anyone. I'm also happy to open up the thread to a more varied discussion on other mirage relations/other kinds of relations between personalities which would appear to be conflicting from the looks of things, but may possibly be overcome through understanding what potential areas of conflict may need to be overcome in order for those relationships to work.

Thank you for your responses, I am really enjoying this thread and also really appreciate your respective contributions to answering my question. This is really important for me, as your answers are helping me to think about some issues I need to think through, even if only just for myself and for into the future : )

[PistolShrimp]

I find that ILE, being the extraverted one, pushes too much on the IEI to be more like what they want. And IEI is not really affected by it, because the pressure is not on any weak points, it's just annoying.

I've found that SxEs push me more to be what they want (active), and I don't always appreciate it. I know I value Se, but where I've had my dad around for 25+ years, now I don't feel I need it as much. I haven't experienced the ILE really pushing me at all; he likes me the way I am. But maybe I'm oblivious to some insidious attempts at reshaping my personality.

@liv Are you dating an ILE? Socionics can only tell you so much about a particular relationship's strengths and weaknesses. You can spend all day trying to figure out if your triangles or squares or circles or Tetris blocks match up with another's set of shapes, or you can forget Socionics, put your all into a relationship and if it still isn't your ideal, you can move on with few regrets. Qué será, será. I know I spent too much time analyzing my relationship when I first found Socionics instead of focusing on enjoying it and the experiences and challenges it provides.

If you really want to get down to the nuts and bolts, IEI has Si-role, and ILE has Se-role. We CAN provide these for each other if needed, but it is less natural for us to do so and can be tiring. I could see Mirage relationships generally strengthening the role functions of the members involved.

[Suz]

If you really want to get down to the nuts and bolts, IEI has Si-role, and ILE has Se-role. We CAN provide these for each other if needed, but it is less natural for us to do so and can be tiring. I could see Mirage relationships generally strengthening the role functions of the members involved.

IME, if someone has to provide their role function, not only is it tiring but the person also hates you for it. At least that's how I feel when I'm made to invoke my role function (or what i think it is, anyway).

[PistolShrimp]

IME, if someone has to provide their role function, not only is it tiring but the person also hates you for it. At least that's how I feel when I'm made to invoke my role function (or what i think it is, anyway).

It feels more like a mild annoyance to me, and I think my boyfriend feels the same way, though I'd have to ask him about it in a roundabout way since he is unfamiliar with Socionics. However, I do feel like I could benefit from strengthening my , so I don't mind so much. It's not too taxing on me to offer him a backrub or tell when he needs a nice dinner, or for him to drag me out to do something fun (when I'm feeling ok), but and bases are probably more nuanced at this. Can you give an example of when being required to use your role makes you hate someone?

[Suz]

It feels more like a mild annoyance to me, and I think my boyfriend feels the same way, though I'd have to ask him about it in a roundabout way since he is unfamiliar with Socionics. However, I do feel like I could benefit from strengthening my , so I don't mind so much. It's not too taxing on me to offer him a backrub or tell when he needs a nice dinner, or for him to drag me out to do something fun (when I'm feeling ok), but and bases are probably more nuanced at this. Can you give an example of when being required to use your role makes you hate someone?

Like one thing that comes to mind is that if i'm made to have to argue or put up a fight to defend my position on whatever, I kind of resent that.

[PistolShrimp]

Like one thing that comes to mind is that if i'm made to have to argue or put up a fight to defend my position on whatever, I kind of resent that.

Heh I feel that way too, though in my case it is probably Te-PoLR. I have noticed that my boyfriend isn't really the type to stand up and say something if I'm getting hit on/teased by other dudes, as he thinks I can handle it myself and doesn't want to exert any influence if he doesn't have to. He also tends to "pull" more than "push" when he wants me to do something, more by being enticing than demanding, and when he tries to be more persuasive/firm with me he usually fails. Not sure that is type or role-related at all though. The more I think about this stuff, the less sense it makes.

[Maker of helmets]

I had a dream last night, which prompted me to think a little more about this
Those with dominant Ni may be potentially attractive to those with dominant Ne
It's like those with dominant Ni are looking for someone
who has the "magic" to draw them out of their hiddenness
Not everyone seems to possess the insight to draw those with dominant Ni out of their hiddenness
Dominant Ne may pick up on dominant Ni's hiddenness, and yet not decipher what is hidden
So dominant Ne may try to "smoke out" dominant Ni from
their rabbit hole, through provoking some kind of response
or otherwise "dry out" dominant Ni - wait until dominant Ni
"gives up", and emerges from the rabbit hole of themselves
As dominant Ni, what I really want is for my future partner to
wait long enough for me to emerge from my rabbit hole, of myself
My future partner is the one who cares enough about what is
hidden, to wait for me to emerge from the rabbit hole, of myself
I believe in waiting for the one unique and incomparable spirit with whom I will
enter into a durable and sustained partnership, mutually satisfying and desired!
Embracing one another in our weakness is how we provide for one another in our strength
MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR YOU; MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN YOUR WEAKNESS - 2 Corinthians 12:9

[xerx]

It can be satisfying on an intellectual level, but IME the level of optimism can get overly saccharine as both types happen to be positivists.

That, and other intuitives are bland and predictable, at least to me; we think at the same level of abstraction and there's no real challenge left after understanding each others' mental themes. The mind, however imaginative, is inertial nevertheless, and sooner or later imposes a kind of stagnant certainty on the world.

Even so, IEIs are still one of the most interesting intuitive types

[xerx]

Being with sensors (EDIT: or reading / viewing works by sensors) is like being shocked out of an impoverished existence to see the world in vibrant colors.

[yeves]

I've found a telltale of this type of relationship, illusionary or "relations of growing laziness - demotivation"


".I've been in a relationship for about three years with an ENTp. We compliment each other excellently, and we're both in love with each other. But over the last year, I've been growing increasingly discontent. It seems that within the context of a relationship, I lose myself. My ambition plummets. My desire to push forward with my goals deteriorates. I quickly settle into this cooking-laundering-cleaning-organizing machine of a boyfriend. And I completely enjoy myself with him...but as time goes on, I miss me. I miss exploring my creative interests. I find myself looking at maps constantly, fantasizing about all the places I'd like to travel. I almost feel like I've given up on myself.

We've broken up a couple times in the past (for different reasons). As soon as we broke up, it's like a switched flipped on inside of me. I worked harder, I took care of my body, I created more. I sort of fell in love with who I was for the first time since high school. And as soon as we got back together, it all went away. I've voiced all of this to him. We've discussed ways to try to better incorporate my dreams into our vision as a couple. But for some reason, I feel no motivation to pursue the life I want.

Have any other INFps out there experienced a similar relationship quandary? I'm so tired of wishing that I were living a different life. I'm so tired of trying and failing. Any insight would be greatly appreciated."

[The Reality Denialist]

Let's just say this: Good times with them. But and very big but it is: I value Si and when there is strong Se (provided by someone else) present things can go to imaginary slaughter fest without any ... weirdness (that I would tolerate). IEI giggles and I gringe. I look at them and think who actually sits next to me?!! They probably roll their eyes when I'm not going with the obvious route from point A to point B for my advantage.

[FoxOnStilts]

Awesome. Some of my best friends have been IEIs. We are both always up for anything, but there can be a problem when we have to make a decision because neither of us really have an opinion.

[Scientist]

My first husband is IEI, out of all the relationships I had, these were the most successful though lacked the future.
He invited me for the first date, walked me back to my home and ended up leaving with me for 9 years (or more accurately, for 6). During first year we didn't have a single fight, not even an argument. He accepted that I was the smart one; I appreciated him dealing with people around on my behalf. Nethertheless, mutual frustration grew, relationships were far from perfect, but we could have made them work under different circumstances. On the sixth year, I got a wonderful opportunity to continue my education in US, so he told me to go for it. He did not want to move to US (he actually does not travel at all except for his yachting). Three years after the long-distance relationships we both had our own parallel lives and different people around. So, that was the end. We still keep in touch and have very warm feelings towards each other.
I can write the whole thesis on this matter, so if you have any questions, will gladly answer.

[Amber]

Delta ST partner of IEI acquaintance once complained about a few effects of an IEI-ILE friendship I know

- all-night-long talks between friends at his place when he wanted to sleep; screwing heads aloud to find answers to more or less philosophical Q whose purpose he couldn't really understand (he didn't participate after 10 pm)

- sudden surprising visits ..the ILE popping up out of the blue at his place to look for the IEI (no previous phone call etc.)

- incredible fluctuations ("that spring they were friends, next winter they were not")

- dangerous liaisons (plotting against ppl, bicephalic emotional manipulation of folks for fun, doing shitty stuff like spreading fake rumors about so-called friends, instigating suspicion in partners etc..)


*** mby it's just a bad side of this rel ...not meant for generalization, just what I heard.

[Scientist]

One more thing, I don't know if it helps, but in my experience IEI was kind of expecting me to take more strong or active life position. Let me give some examples:

1) I had troubles with my family members enforcing me to do what they say. I was very upset about it. He kept saying that I should fight for my independence. Eventually, since I was unable to resolve the issues, he himself confronted my relatives. It ended up in a huge fight and I had not talked to my mom and sis for 12 months. He kept me from making the first attempt to reconcile with them. After 12 month, my mom have contacted me, apologized and treats me with respect ever since. My IEI told me that we have won the battle!!! (oh, beta)

2) We had to wake up really early to do some important stuff, but IEI refused to leave the bed. I got so furious for some reason (this is absolutely out of my character) and just poured a glass of cold water on him. I felt so bad, because I knew I was doing the wrong thing and expected him to get mad at me. Absolutely surprisingly, he looked at me with admiration and whispered: "My sweetie has a temper". We did not make it in time to wherever we were invited, but sex was awesome!

3) Couple of years ago he called me and apologized for constantly picking on me while we were together. He said that he realized that he enjoys irritating and provoking people to get a reaction out of them. Basically, without being familiar with the socionics theory he came to conclusion about "victim-aggressor" dynamics

[poops magoops]

I am married to an IEI-Fe sub as an ILE-Ti sub. We have been together for about 7 years. We met through okcupid while living a 9 hour drive from one another. We were both in college at the time.

The most strikingly positive points in our relationship are our ability to relax together, enjoy one another for our casual conversation, and we play games together. We both love animals and treat our dog like our naturally born baby.

We are notably kind to one another, express our love easily, and can both vividly see our partners creativity and wonderful internal world. Our relationship is almost devoid of fighting (certainly no voice raising or anger).

We are also morally in alignment, sharing the same politics and ideas of justice and hope for the future. While that might sound unimportant to a healthy relationship, it is extremely important to both us, and is something that neither of us would be able to see passed in a relationship partner.

Working together is a nightmare, which we are both very aware of. Doing any sort of task, be it something simple like cleaning the house or running errands or something difficult (I can't even come up with areal life example—it is unthinkable) is not fun, and should be done separately if one partner can not do all of the work alone. Working together is a sure place for misunderstanding, mutual annoyance with the partners' effort and critical remarks.

The points where dualization is missed in our relationship are worth noting as well. My wife lacks the volitional sexuality of her dual.This lack causes her to seeks out attention at bars, clubs and parties.

My lack of dualization manifests in poor care for my body; I often go days without eating or exercising enough. I have learned to cook and clean for myself, which can be quite taxing on my energy levels and sometimes affects my work (I work at home mostly).

Our relationships success stands as much on the sturdy legs of gentleness, devotion as it does on recognizing the limits of our ability to work together. If we were to share the stress of child raising, financial instability or running a business we would likely be in trouble.

I think this is a very good relationship for people who do not have serious financial issues and do not want children. If the relationship is founded on enjoying rest and recreation together both partners will enjoy one another's personality and creativity.

[bolong]

I am married to an IEI-Fe sub as an ILE-Ti sub. We have been together for about 7 years. We met through okcupid while living a 9 hour drive from one another. We were both in college at the time.

The most strikingly positive points in our relationship are our ability to relax together, enjoy one another for our casual conversation, and we play games together. We both love animals and treat our dog like our naturally born baby.

We are notably kind to one another, express our love easily, and can both vividly see our partners creativity and wonderful internal world. Our relationship is almost devoid of fighting (certainly no voice raising or anger).

We are also morally in alignment, sharing the same politics and ideas of justice and hope for the future. While that might sound unimportant to a healthy relationship, it is extremely important to both us, and is something that neither of us would be able to see passed in a relationship partner.

Working together is a nightmare, which we are both very aware of. Doing any sort of task, be it something simple like cleaning the house or running errands or something difficult (I can't even come up with areal life example—it is unthinkable) is not fun, and should be done separately if one partner can not do all of the work alone. Working together is a sure place for misunderstanding, mutual annoyance with the partners' effort and critical remarks.

The points where dualization is missed in our relationship are worth noting as well. My wife lacks the volitional sexuality of her dual.This lack causes her to seeks out attention at bars, clubs and parties.

My lack of dualization manifests in poor care for my body; I often go days without eating or exercising enough. I have learned to cook and clean for myself, which can be quite taxing on my energy levels and sometimes affects my work (I work at home mostly).

Our relationships success stands as much on the sturdy legs of gentleness, devotion as it does on recognizing the limits of our ability to work together. If we were to share the stress of child raising, financial instability or running a business we would likely be in trouble.

I think this is a very good relationship for people who do not have serious financial issues and do not want children. If the relationship is founded on enjoying rest and recreation together both partners will enjoy one another's personality and creativity.

This was really insightful,

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I used to date an ILE... The relationship goes well when you just joke around and talk about non serious stuff, but as soon as you try to talk seriously with them and share some real thoughts they turn out to be agressivly protective of their own selves. It just leads to hours and hours of meaningless arguments.

This is what I hate most about ILEs... truth.

They can't be serious/negative and just plain real with you. It's always this sugar coated fluff of self help book smarmy ness. And okay even if they are more the 'tougher' ILE or whatever, they still will try to make everything light even when they are pissed off ugh. I guess people have criticized IEIs of doing this but trust me we are nowhere near as bad as the ILE in this department.

I find that I kill the ILEs fun lol. But I get them to be more serious and they get me to lighten up more.

[Kalinoche buenanoche]

my ILE liaison would log off mirc whenever i would get a bit nostalgic and soul searching (either this or long pauses till i showed something cool from the internet/bring up an idea. then again it was not like i wanted/expected him to respond in the same spirit. quite on the contrary.).other than that he was one of the funniest ppl i got to know and created a nowadays very popular youth/ironic website called luben.tv. it was rly cool seeing the way he went on with the setting up and whatnot

[glam]

idk, i don't think i've gotten into a serious personal argument with an ILE. we generally get along really well. i've disagreed with them, sure, but at most it's a heated discussion that easily blows over, and i don't feel that personally angry at them or anything. annoyance is a better word for those instances in which i felt they were being unhelpful or critical. generally i feel like we are too bored/understimulated with each other to have the energy to seriously argue, lol. i also agree that ILE-IEI is a good relationship for fun and relaxation, but not so much for working together, because the two are always going to be expecting behavior from each other that they can't easily give. in the beginning, the relationship is very attractive and easy to fall into though.

[Sol]

I think this is a very good relationship for people who do not have serious financial issues

There is only one good relationship for marriage - duality. Only this gives the possibility for full-fledged friendship wich is very desirably as you choose a man to live with him the whole life, to jointly decide difficult tasks.
The easier conditions - the less friendship support you need. The less psychological distance - the less conflicts you'll notice.
But easy conditions are not typical for our life - society loads people as much as possible to take max from them. And far psychological distance is not a full-fledged marriage.

This needs experimental research to be sure. But I think duality gives high-grade more degree of satisfaction by marriage after >5 years, than any other relationship.
As different factors affect on this, duality will not give 100% chances for good relations and in some cases types will be identified wrong. Duality (in average) may reduce number of divorces and make people more happier in marriage after 5 years.

[tejing]

My father's an ILE and my sister's an IEI, and they get along very well when they're joking around, however any time any practical or deeply serious topic comes up, they get nowhere, and both come away from it stressed and unhappy.