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Thread: Delta NFs and Gamma NTs - Mirage, Benefit, Semi-Duality

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    Default Delta NFs and Gamma NTs - Mirage, Benefit, Semi-Duality

    Is this true? Is it easier for you to be friends with each other than being with your duals? There is a widespread belief on MBTI forums that two intuitive types have easier time talking and getting along, how does this translate to socionics? http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya

    The LIE feels much more comfortable with the child-like intuitive types of Delta quadra - Dostoevsky (EII) and Huxley (IEE) - than with his dual. These types, in general, strongly influence LIEs: both of these are declaring types, self-confident in their own right, gentle and compassionate, forgiving of his flaws and lapses, often able to find them a justification and positive explanation. They wish him (Jack) all everything good and an all-permissive emancipation. They give advice based on their best motives. Thus, the LIE loosens up around them, renews his hopes for the best, and then flies without breaks heaven knows where, falls into some unfortunate disaster or encounters very real obstacles, which he in his blind confidence wasn't willing to see and recognize. Under such direction and with such attitude the "crash landing" isn't even important for him. The main thing is the sense of freedom of the flight, the speed and the elevation: "soared up above the roof", fell, but still happy - he's survived such an adventure!

    While the negativist ESI puts restrictions on every such "adventure". The ethical "program" of ESI generally adds a lot of constraints on the logic of action - don't do this, don't do that - while the LIE wants to be daring and win! Of course, from this point of view it is easy to understand why Delta intuitive types EII and IEE are more attractive and convenient to be around for the LIE. They are "his guys" - they have a similar outlook on life and manage to be successful and childishly careless at the same time. Why can't he live his life in the same manner?

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    Well, that's strasevskaya "I'm bitching with my female friends about my ex husband" style of writing you see there. In short, yes, if the "ISFj" becomes nagging personified, the "ENTj" will try to escape this nagging.
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    This thread is relevant to my interests.

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    LIEs are awesome, I love having long conversations with them. In some ways they're very similar to me, so we're able to relate to eachother and follow each other's train of thought very easily. And on the other hand, they are different enough that they can cover my weaknesses. The ones I know are super nice (sometimes too nice, even), stable, laid back, have pleasant energy levels etc.

    ILIs I know are so passive and introverted and low on energy that it doesn't really work out. They usually come across as very needy to me, and it wears me out.
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    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
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    I really, really like them. I also really really like EII's and SEE's just rock... actually I really really like most of the types. For different reasons i suppose. Gamma NT's seem to be pretty solid, they don't mind my being fragile and uneven tempered, in fact I think they sometimes enjoy the roller coaster ride, though they will of course often prefer to view it rather than be completely involved.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

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    I've generally gotten on with ILIs at least in a passive sense, but it's been historically tough for me to find common ground with them. Even if we have a common interest to bond about, we approach them from two different mindsets that I never figured out how to reconcile. We end up at the same relative philosophies about life, but we come at it from two entirely different starting points that can't really communicate their observations with each other. I turn a lot more cynical and negative than usual around ILIs though because I've found they respond well to gossip stories about stupid people making terrible decisions, and making Fe-PoLRs laugh is one of the greatest joys in life.

    I've maybe known one LIE in person, and we've barely talked.
    Last edited by Galen; 05-27-2014 at 05:11 PM.
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    I think it's true, I get along well with LIEs and I know the feeling is mutual. I've seen LIEs around ESIs and they, at least at first, feel misunderstood. ESIs are very demanding when it comes to ethics, delta NFs tend to be more forgiving. Over the long term the relationship breaks down though, LIEs need more commitment and sensory support than delta NF's are able to provide.

    As for ILIs, every one I've met has been easy to talk to straight off, there's a pretty strong gravitational pull. No question they're easier to start a relationship with than SLIs, who are so quiet and withdrawn at first. Long term is when the difference kicks in, SLIs remain interesting and start to become warm, ILIs periodically grow cold and get more boring (just my opinion as an IEE).

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen View Post
    I've generally gotten on with ILIs at least in a passive sense, but it's been historically tough for me to find common ground with them. Even if we have a common interest to bond about, we approach them from two different mindsets that I never figured out how to reconcile. We end up at the same relative philosophies about life, but we come at it from two entirely different starting points that can't really communicate their observations with each other. I turn a lot more cynical and negative than usual around ILIs though because I've found they respond well to gossip stories about stupid people making terrible decisions, and making Fe-PoLRs laugh is one of the greatest joys in life.
    Hahah, true that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    Is it easier for you to be friends with each other than being with your duals?
    Hell no. LIE values Se and Ni while EII and IEE value Ne and Si.


    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    The LIE feels much more comfortable with the child-like intuitive types of Delta quadra - Dostoevsky (EII) and Huxley (IEE) - than with his dual.
    Not really. One of my close friends is LIE (gotta love those relations of benefit) and his girlfriend is EII, and one of the issues they've had is her "lack of assertiveness" in bed. Evidently she is always down to have sex, but she never initiates it herself. In his words, "she needs to be more aggressive".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    ILIs I know are so passive and introverted and low on energy that it doesn't really work out. They usually come across as very needy to me, and it wears me out.
    Interesting case, being you an infantile (supposedly) and being ILIs Se valuers & Fe PoLR. I am curious, could you elaborate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    Interesting case, being you an infantile (supposedly) and being ILIs Se valuers & Fe PoLR. I am curious, could you elaborate?
    It's a bit hard to explain. I don't mean needy in terms of physical comfort, but rather emotionally and "activity-wise". A lot of ILIs lack initiative even more than I do, and expect me to make basically all decisions and do a lot of stuff for them. Be it cooking or changing the lightbulb, they seem not only lazy, but also somewhat uncomfortable about these things. Here's a few examples from my travels with a particular ILI.

    - I usually have to be the first to say greet him or start conversations in the morning/if we met after doing something on our own for a while. Whenever he needs somehting or has another reason to start a conversation himself, he seems awkward about it, as if he'd been planning how to ask the question for several moments before asking it.
    - At a festival he wanted me to tell him where to put his hammock (there was only one tree + one bush around should've been obvious to anyone)...
    - ... and what to do about an annoying shrub growing underneath the hammock. I suggested he digs it up or cuts the brances or puts something heavy on top of it. He asked if I could do it as he was "not really sure how to" and "you seem to have experience".
    - In general he always preferred to have someone else set up the tent or ask for directions or decide where to get food or go party.
    - Once we stayed at his old acquaintances' place, but he left me to do all the introductions/talking when we first met them, and most of it during the rest of our stay (I'd never met these people before)
    - He often wanted to open up & talk about emotions and relationships (general Fi stuff I guess) with me. I usually felt like these conversations didn't go anywhere, but he seemed to really appreciate them and he'd often bring up the (from my point of view closed) topics days later, asking for more irrelevant details etc.
    - He was super bad at taking care of basic needs. He'd bum cigarettes all the time because he'd run out of his own, which got really annoying after a while, especially if we were somewhere close to a shop (he always had an excuse for not buying some more just now.)
    - He would make long analyses about a lof of stuff (politics, psychology, philosophy..) but whenever I questioned them of sometimes even when I asked a sincere question, he'd very easily get unsure and start questioning the whole thing.
    - Even in emergency situations he stays passive and helpless. Countless times I've come to a situation that requires quick action (someone is bleeding heavily, a hot coal is burning a hole to a carpet..) and the ILI just stares and asks me what should be done (seemingly awkward about being caught not doing anything).

    These are all about just one person, but the two others I know are not very different really. One could argue that this is general insecurity-related. Maybe ILIs tend to be more insecure about this kind of things? These people are definitely not stupid either, rather the opposite. I also don't think their Fi-creative friends notice or mind half as much as I do. They often let the ILI be passive and joke about how useless they are, or give them orders and warmly laugh at their lack of initiative.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    It's a bit hard to explain. I don't mean needy in terms of physical comfort, but rather emotionally and "activity-wise". A lot of ILIs lack initiative even more than I do, and expect me to make basically all decisions and do a lot of stuff for them. Be it cooking or changing the lightbulb, they seem not only lazy, but also somewhat uncomfortable about these things. Here's a few examples from my travels with a particular ILI.

    - I usually have to be the first to say greet him or start conversations in the morning/if we met after doing something on our own for a while. Whenever he needs somehting or has another reason to start a conversation himself, he seems awkward about it, as if he'd been planning how to ask the question for several moments before asking it.
    - At a festival he wanted me to tell him where to put his hammock (there was only one tree + one bush around should've been obvious to anyone)...
    - ... and what to do about an annoying shrub growing underneath the hammock. I suggested he digs it up or cuts the brances or puts something heavy on top of it. He asked if I could do it as he was "not really sure how to" and "you seem to have experience".
    - In general he always preferred to have someone else set up the tent or ask for directions or decide where to get food or go party.
    - Once we stayed at his old acquaintances' place, but he left me to do all the introductions/talking when we first met them, and most of it during the rest of our stay (I'd never met these people before)
    - He often wanted to open up & talk about emotions and relationships (general Fi stuff I guess) with me. I usually felt like these conversations didn't go anywhere, but he seemed to really appreciate them and he'd often bring up the (from my point of view closed) topics days later, asking for more irrelevant details etc.
    - He was super bad at taking care of basic needs. He'd bum cigarettes all the time because he'd run out of his own, which got really annoying after a while, especially if we were somewhere close to a shop (he always had an excuse for not buying some more just now.)
    - He would make long analyses about a lof of stuff (politics, psychology, philosophy..) but whenever I questioned them of sometimes even when I asked a sincere question, he'd very easily get unsure and start questioning the whole thing.
    - Even in emergency situations he stays passive and helpless. Countless times I've come to a situation that requires quick action (someone is bleeding heavily, a hot coal is burning a hole to a carpet..) and the ILI just stares and asks me what should be done (seemingly awkward about being caught not doing anything).

    These are all about just one person, but the two others I know are not very different really. One could argue that this is general insecurity-related. Maybe ILIs tend to be more insecure about this kind of things? These people are definitely not stupid either, rather the opposite. I also don't think their Fi-creative friends notice or mind half as much as I do. They often let the ILI be passive and joke about how useless they are, or give them orders and warmly laugh at their lack of initiative.
    Ahaha. Funny. I have exactly the opposite attitude. My basic approach to life is "everyone else is completely incompetent, so I'm going to do everything."

    Although if I respect someone I sort of like them to take control of shit, because being the only competent one gets exhausting. I suppose it can seem like a lot of pressure for that person.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    It's a bit hard to explain. I don't mean needy in terms of physical comfort, but rather emotionally and "activity-wise". A lot of ILIs lack initiative even more than I do, and expect me to make basically all decisions and do a lot of stuff for them. Be it cooking or changing the lightbulb, they seem not only lazy, but also somewhat uncomfortable about these things. Here's a few examples from my travels with a particular ILI...
    I was waiting for some answer like this.

    Beyond personal interpretations about the nature of functions (what they are) and their consecuencies (what they do), many people tend to forget that the stronger you are in one aspect, the weaker you will be in the opposite. It is a common flaw to type oneself paying attention only to the virtues of whatever type you are considering, and at the same time ignoring or minimizing as less relevant the necessary weaknesses that simultaneously should be present.

    This case is specially illustrative. Although it seems less frequent than some time ago, the "I'm an Ni ego" (or even Ni dominant) based in all kind of deluded mystification of Ni (admitted or not) has been quite common. I do not buy the self-typing of those people that "seem" to have almost all the virtues and very few of the inconvenients of this (or any other) function. An Ni dom but at the same time strongly consistent in his/her behavior (that is, rational)?. Bullshit. The more Ni you are, the more visible irrationality should be. Being strongly logical tends to be misunderstood as rationality (and sometimes also the opposite).

    Yes, everyone is able to overcome to certain degree natural weaknesses, but keywords are overcome and to certain degree. It takes a lot of effort and you will never be (statistically) as good in it as the averaged type, much less the opposite one. And definitely, no one is able to "overcome" those inconvenients from the same moment you are aware of them, as if for practical purposes, their negative effects has been close to zero.

    I'm still unsure about what (arche)type is closer to my actual self due to some observed inconsistencies, but I try to consider my weaknesses (alsonside virtues) in this process. For example, my strong irrationality (natural, not related to depression periods or any other external cause) is what always makes me discard LII in those peorids when I'm seriously considering it.

    I find funny that I share many of the behaviours you have commented:

    - I usually have to be the first to say greet him or start conversations in the morning/if we met after doing something on our own for a while. Whenever he needs somehting or has another reason to start a conversation himself, he seems awkward about it, as if he'd been planning how to ask the question for several moments before asking it.
    True, but only with aquittances. I have no problem initiating interaction with close friends, unless a lot of time has passed since we have met (years for example). Then I can be really ackward, because I want to be nice but I have no clue about what to say.

    - At a festival he wanted me to tell him where to put his hammock (there was only one tree + one bush around should've been obvious to anyone)...
    - ... and what to do about an annoying shrub growing underneath the hammock. I suggested he digs it up or cuts the brances or puts something heavy on top of it. He asked if I could do it as he was "not really sure how to" and "you seem to have experience".
    Clear examples of weak Se.

    - In general he always preferred to have someone else set up the tent or ask for directions or decide where to get food or go party.
    Weak Se. I tend to do this, except when the proposed place is somewhere I do not want to go (I abhor crowded places). Or I really want to go to somewhere. Let's say that under uncertainty I tend to leave others to decide.

    - Once we stayed at his old acquaintances' place, but he left me to do all the introductions/talking when we first met them, and most of it during the rest of our stay (I'd never met these people before)
    Not my case. I would have made the introductions, because I feel uncomfortable meeting new people and during the period when I'm deciding if I like them or not; could be quick sometimes (and the answer is very apparent, I cannot fake interest in people I'm not interested). So I would do the same for others.

    - He often wanted to open up & talk about emotions and relationships (general Fi stuff I guess) with me. I usually felt like these conversations didn't go anywhere, but he seemed to really appreciate them and he'd often bring up the (from my point of view closed) topics days later, asking for more irrelevant details etc.
    I enjoy sincere conversations with valued people, even about feelings. I can tolerate small talk, but again only with valued people.

    - He was super bad at taking care of basic needs. He'd bum cigarettes all the time because he'd run out of his own, which got really annoying after a while, especially if we were somewhere close to a shop (he always had an excuse for not buying some more just now.)
    LOL. I do not smoke, but I do the same with chewing gum.

    - He would make long analyses about a lof of stuff (politics, psychology, philosophy..) but whenever I questioned them of sometimes even when I asked a sincere question, he'd very easily get unsure and start questioning the whole thing.
    Ni+Te aka the neverending uncertainty. You can make a conclusion with the information given at present time, but as soon as new information is present you have to recalculate the whole thing. Also as Ti devaluers any concept is not seen as a final representation of [a portion of] reality so...

    What if I missed this point of view? What if I missed one intrepretation? What if I need more data? Mental rumiations.

    - Even in emergency situations he stays passive and helpless. Countless times I've come to a situation that requires quick action (someone is bleeding heavily, a hot coal is burning a hole to a carpet..) and the ILI just stares and asks me what should be done (seemingly awkward about being caught not doing anything).
    Yep, guilty. In the ILI case the explanation is easy; very weak Se (DS).

    You can say that you are Se PoLR and you do not behave in this way. But although the energetic model says the same way demonstrative is 4D as it is leading, DS is 1D as it is PoLR. So ILIs and IEIs are as "weak" by default as LIIs and EIIs are. But the latter two has the advantage of rationality, which is useful as you say for making quick decisions/actions when needed. Once you achieve one solution for one problem, you will be reasonably consistent in applying this solution. Irrationals will not behave consistently (in comparison). With the additional uncertainty, you will be hesitating to start a course of action if you do not trust that it will end where it is supposed/desired.

    I think IEIs have here an advantage compared with ILIs. The latter ones, Te egos, are dependent of external information, which by definition is "not owned". IEIs use Fe, whose information is "owned" in comparison, making them a bit more confident in their actions. Obviously this does not imply that their solutions are more correct.

    Weakness tend to be associated more usually to PoLR than DS. But being at first equally weak, PoLR is in conscious, so the user will be more aware of this problem and consequently more capable of dealing with it. Altough Se PoLRs will try to avoid Se as much as they can, while Se DS will enjoy it given the opportunity, Se PoLRs could become more efficient with it. There are many examples of xIIs applying force when there's no way of avoiding this necessary evil, being Robespierre the easiest one. Or Thomas More, an humanist who did not hesitate in burning protestants. Or Teresa of Calcutta, the biggest douchebag EII I'm aware of (yes people, Mother Teresa).

    xIIs can become authoritarians; IxIs enjoy Se as a "personal meal" more that something to impose on others.

    These are all about just one person, but the two others I know are not very different really. One could argue that this is general insecurity-related. Maybe ILIs tend to be more insecure about this kind of things? These people are definitely not stupid either, rather the opposite. I also don't think their Fi-creative friends notice or mind half as much as I do. They often let the ILI be passive and joke about how useless they are, or give them orders and warmly laugh at their lack of initiative.
    Not general insecurity (maybe shyness could contribute to social aspects) but simply tangible world insecurity (Se DS). This is my opinion at least, and what I've observed in others (and partially in myself).

    By the way nice and informative post, Agarina.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 05-31-2014 at 12:54 PM.

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    Fun fact, Delta NFs are the 'most hidden' on my facebook feed because I want a friend, not a fucking mormon trying to sell me shit about gender inequality, animals and the environment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MensSuperMateriam View Post
    post
    Thanks, this definitely helped me understand what's going on a lot better.
    Like you said, rationality could be one reason for why I'm able to act quicker than him. I also think the fact that I have a SLE dad that's pushed me to be very independent in Se related stuff from a really young age makes a difference. And I've been in the scouts (it's very different here than in the US btw) since I was 6, so I have lots of experience and knowledge of camping-related stuff. All these things put together might make me look like someone with stronger Se at first glance, so people may not realise how unnatural and stressful the stuff really is for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agarina View Post
    Thanks, this definitely helped me understand what's going on a lot better.
    Like you said, rationality could be one reason for why I'm able to act quicker than him. I also think the fact that I have a SLE dad that's pushed me to be very independent in Se related stuff from a really young age makes a difference. And I've been in the scouts (it's very different here than in the US btw) since I was 6, so I have lots of experience and knowledge of camping-related stuff. All these things put together might make me look like someone with stronger Se at first glance, so people may not realise how unnatural and stressful the stuff really is for me.
    Your father is your conflictor? Well, I think despite it is a destructive relationship by default, between a balanced conflictor and a neurotic "neighbor" I think I would pick the first option. You have sponken positively about his influence so this seems to be your case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scapegrace View Post
    Ahaha. Funny. I have exactly the opposite attitude. My basic approach to life is "everyone else is completely incompetent, so I'm going to do everything."

    Although if I respect someone I sort of like them to take control of shit, because being the only competent one gets exhausting. I suppose it can seem like a lot of pressure for that person.
    Your statement is true of a friend that I have tentatively typed ILI. @Agarina your above example in some of those situations, the guy sounds a little more infantile, less victim.

    What I notice about my friend is that he appears to want to have a hand in controlling his environment, sometimes he is good at it, sometimes not that good. But he believes he should be good at it. But he frequently just doesn't notice things that need to be dealt with, being intuitive. And so there are gaps in his control. To clarify, he doesn't really want to control people. Just his environment. What he is really good at is analyzing unfolding situations and telling people how to deal with them. He is patient at collecting data to be able to analyze problems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iris View Post
    Your statement is true of a friend that I have tentatively typed ILI. @Agarina your above example in some of those situations, the guy sounds a little more infantile, less victim.
    It's hard for me to imagine what he sounds like from that describtion, but as someone who's known him for quite a while, his victimness is so obvious it hurts. He even admis it himself (what a victim, ha ).
    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Axis of Evil: Iran, Iraq, North Korea and Agarina
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa Darmandzhyan
    Agarina does not like human beings; she just wants a pretty boy toy.
    Johari Nohari

  18. #18
    boom boom boom blackburry's Avatar
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    I only know one ILI irl. He's a friends husband-- he's usually the one who pushes her to do stuff and pretty awesome in emergencies (he broke his leg snowboarding on the top of a mountain and managed to survive a blizzard trapped for a day). I think he's Te subtype if that makes any difference. He's also fairly outgoing comes off as LIE-ish at first but definite ILI once you have more than a few convos with him. Straightfoward guy. Don't know him more than an acquaintence.

  19. #19
    suedehead's Avatar
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    The only encounter I've had with a Gamma NT, that I know of, was a professor that I had a while back. He tried to kick me out on the first day for yawning (it was involuntary and he let me stay after pleading) and would shoot down, mine, and pretty much everyone else's questions in a condescending manner during lectures (although I figure I was just too sensitive about it). Although everyone that I had that class with tells me that he liked me as a student.

    Now that I think about it, I might have a cousin who's LIE and I always thought he was cool. A bit of a show-off, but pretty level-headed and independent. He was always willing to share his cynical views towards institutionalized religion in front of some of my family members who are really traditional Catholics. Last time I really interacted with him was when I was 15-16 though. It wasn't too awkward.
    Last edited by suedehead; 06-01-2014 at 08:47 PM.

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