UDP and Maritsa on protection (split)

[UDP]

I wrote this an hour ago but my internets ran away, so, it's a little temporarily out of place...

We can't get out of the situation in this case, because one side of us wants to contribute to knowledge and yet another wants to help; ESTj would either tell everyone to back off, or as you saw Rasputin told me to stop talking in not such a direct way. I have a need to convey information dispite the Se-polr and stubborness, drive, and consistancy don't help in this matter.

@Maritsa

I would defend you but I think you need to learn something here, Maritsa. You can't keep running away from problems or expecting someone to save you from something.

A lot of people don't particularly think you are going about things very well, so you should consider why they feel that way - not just write off what they are doing as some sort of "Gang Se Tactic". I feel like you are using that as a cop out.

Too much protection and rescuing makes someone less likely to take care of themselves ; this is the Moral Hazard.

 

What an interestingly titled term for this situation

[Lobo]

Get ready for your dual then...ask Ryu and he will tell you what I mean, unless of course you want to change your type.

Ryu, please guide me... Tell me what she means. I'm lost without my dual.

[UDP]

That's my idea of a nightmare.

Mine is there being no cookies in the house when I want them. And then realizing there are no cookies...


ANYWHERE !@!@!#!!@!

:frown::frown::frown:

[Lobo]

Mine is there being no cookies in the house when I want them. And then realizing there are no cookies...


ANYWHERE !@!@!#!!@!

:frown::frown::frown:

You remind of that little LSE kid video I posted some time ago. "Bacon is good for meh."

[Beautiful sky]

I wrote this an hour ago but my internets ran away, so, it's a little temporarily out of place...


@Maritsa

I would defend you but I think you need to learn something here, Maritsa. You can't keep running away from problems or expecting someone to save you from something.

A lot of people don't particularly think you are going about things very well, so you should consider why they feel that way - not just write off what they are doing as some sort of "Gang Se Tactic". I feel like you are using that as a cop out.

Too much protection and rescuing makes someone less likely to take care of themselves ; this is the Moral Hazard.

 

What an interestingly titled term for this situation

I am doing this without you or your help...so go eat your COOKIES because that's what you are good for. I dislike you in very many ways one such way is that you don't know how to be you, provided that you are an LSE.

[Beautiful sky]

Sometimes, it's honorable for a man to "take care" of a woman or a situation where they have knowledge that the person can not defend themselves fully, or full to capacity. You are one twistedly weak LSE in that you can't realize when I am weak, you can't realize when the encroachment of others causes a pattern that further makes me weaker (even when I spell it out for you), thereby stepping in, and that you just have this selfish ideal of your LSE-ism and you can see me as a person, only as an obect on this forum.

[UDP]

You remind of that little LSE kid video I posted some time ago. "Bacon is good for meh."

oh yeah, that kid was awesome

 

So much for deltas being objective when they're feeling angry, eh?

I am doing this without you or your help...so go eat your COOKIES because that's what you are good for.

I am good at eating cookies, true. Very good, actually.
As a matter of fact, last week, I ate a full-sized box of them all by myself in about 3 days.

I dislike you in very many ways one such way is that you don't know how to be you, provided that you are an LSE.

I don't defend people just because they are EII. I'd advise you to not try to proclaim positive feelings about/towards someone just because they appear to be your socionics dual, either.

Keep in mind, I am fully capable of giving you tough-love, which is what I was doing in the last post to you. I'm sure you are strong enough to handle things on your own.


PS: ...
Also, fwiw, I've done a fair job of getting EIIs upset with me

[UDP]

Ryu, please guide me... Tell me what she means. I'm lost without my dual.

Listen to this story, child, and you will understand
(LSE)

[UDP]

Sometimes, it's honorable for a man to "take care" of a woman or a situation where they have knowledge that the person can not defend themselves fully, or full to capacity. You are one twistedly weak LSE in that you can't realize when I am weak, you can't realize when the encroachment of others causes a pattern that further makes me weaker (even when I spell it out for you), thereby stepping in, and that you just have this selfish ideal of your LSE-ism and you can see me as a person, only as an obect on this forum.

Hm, maybe you need to be dualized.

LSEs turn this.....


into this...

[Beautiful sky]

Hm, maybe you need to be dualized.

payne[/url]

Kindly, leave me alone...

[UDP]

Those movie clips might not make the most sense if you're not famliar with the movie.


Bottom line is: I can't help you become stronger or deal with things better if I shield you from the truth. You have to understand that people have legitimate points and gripes about how you go about things. I will help you become stronger and help you deal with things if you like. But you have to face the situation that you created on your own - me just telling everybody else to leave you alone because you're feeling uncomfortable about things will only benefit you so much. (see Moral Hazard)

It's like.... if you expect me to bail you out of debt by always giving you money. If you keep making bad choices with your money - if you keep asking others for 5$ here and 10$ there, and never pay them back yourself, that's not good. If I pay everyone back for you, you don't learn how to handle your money better.

I'm interested in helping you and protecting you only if you want to get better ; I'm not interested in bailing you out or defending you from situations that you create on your own - a situation you create and then don't want to deal with its consequences.

[Beautiful sky]

Those movie clips might not make the most sense if you're not famliar with the movie.


Bottom line is: I can't help you become stronger or deal with things better if I shield you from the truth. You have to understand that people have legitimate points and gripes about how you go about things. I will help you become stronger and help you deal with things if you like. But you have to face the situation that you created on your own - me just telling everybody else to leave you alone because you're feeling uncomfortable about things will only benefit you so much.

It's like.... if you expect me to bail you out of debt by always giving you money. If you keep making bad choices with your money - if you keep asking others for 5$ here and 10$ there, and never pay them back yourself, that's not good. If I pay everyone back for you, you don't learn how to handle your money better.

I'm interested in helping you and protecting you only if you want to get better ; I'm not interested in bailing you out or defending you from situations that you create on your own - a situation you create and then don't want to deal with its consequences.

Again you FAIL to understand me, that's one lack of undualize people...when you speak out of your butt without knowing me. Leave me alone please.
My dual handles the finances. Duals COVER each other's weaknesses....you forgot that fine point.

[UDP]

Duals can help people grow.
or, yeah, you can use your dual as a crutch and continuously shy away from reality.

I'm an advocate for people growing and becoming more complete individuals.

[Beautiful sky]

Duals can help people grow.
or, yeah, you can use your dual as a crutch and continuously shy away from reality.

I'm an advocate for people growing and becoming more complete individuals.

That's exactly the problem with you; overgrowth to the point were you expect others to be like you or your ideal and yet you don't recognize the point that a weakness (polr) can never be strengthened to the point where it well be strong.

[Beautiful sky]

I called for help in the ENTj or ESTj thread and Rasputin responded, because he doesn't have this deal that you do; my cousin stands next to me because she knows that when my voice decends, she steps in, you stand there, in the corner expecting something from me that can not be produced...perhapse another ISTp is a better match for you until you can grow to realize certain realities of individual traits in people and stop making unreachable, inappropriately unreasonable, demands.

It just so happens that my polr is not yours, it just so happens that in real life it is less physical then your mental polr.

[UDP]

Again, you can use a dual as a crutch, but i don't think that's very healthy. You have to continue to learn and grow as a person ; it's about balance.

Furthermore, I don't think the situation you are in has much to do with duality or needing a dual to save you from the mess you created here.

"being able to answer questions logically and with evidence, as well as being able to listen to people and understand them, are skills that any type can develop"

[Beautiful sky]

Again, you can use a dual as a crutch, but i don't think that's very healthy. You have to continue to learn and grow as a person ; it's about balance.

Furthermore, I don't think the situation you are in has much to do with duality or needing a dual to save you from the mess you created here.

"being able to answer questions logically and with evidence, as well as being able to listen to people and understand them, are skills that any type can develop"

Ask Rasputin how he was able to figure out my enneagram type, was it when he turned away and ignored me? Have you even read what my enneagram type says? I don't want you to address me, I don't care to hear you, I am sure one day, you will realize that what you are saying was out of something about me you couldn't see, that's right in front of you. I don't use people as crutches, I dual, I know when to back off and let my dual carry the load, and I know when my work is valuable...you don't. I don't need my dual to save me, I need my dual to COVER these points as I will happily and gladly cover their weakness...that's what makes them ONE. Real skills for you are easy...NOT so with me, again, you want me to do what you can...that is unreal, unreasonable and unnecessary.

If every person could do exactly what the next can then this system of duality would be false, unreal; I have news for you, it isn't unreal; it's very real.

[UDP]

I called for help in the ENTj or ESTj thread and Rasputin responded,

I think he did it somewhat because he didn't realize how strange you were and just reacted normally to seeing someone under distress. I would have acted that way too, but I see clearly how you caused this mess so I'm not going to just bail you out of it.

because he doesn't have this deal that you do; my cousin stands next to me because she knows that when my voice decends, she steps in, you stand there, in the corner expecting something from me that can not be produced...perhapse another ISTp is a better match for you until you can grow to realize certain realities of individual traits in people and stop making unreachable, inappropriately unreasonable, demands.

I surely don't want to be a babysitter.

If you think me 'demanding' you to deal with this situation is unreasonable or appropriate, then yes, I don't see any future for us as a couple. I'd be too inclined to tell you to grow up. I will take care of the person in my relationship, but I will not encourage them to abandon responsibility, maturity, and growth.

It just so happens that my polr is not yours, it just so happens that in real life it is less physical then your mental polr.

What do you expect me to do , not think deeply, and not plan anything, and rely on you to tell me what time it is? You'd have me consult you for every moral decision, and not become better at evaluating things ethically myself?

No thanks, I don't want to become a vegetable for all matters N and F.

[UDP]

Ask Rasputin how he was able to figure out my enneagram type, was it when he turned away and ignored me? Have you even read what my enneagram type says? I don't want you to address me, I don't care to hear you, I am sure one day, you will realize that what you are saying was out of something about me you couldn't see, that's right in front of you. I don't use people as crutches, I dual, I know when to back off and let my dual carry the load, and I know when my work is valuable...you don't. I don't need my dual to save me, I need my dual to COVER these points as I will happily and gladly cover their weakness...that's what makes them ONE. Real skills for you are easy...NOT so with me, again, you want me to do what you can...that is unreal, unreasonable and unnecessary.

(You're having more of a conversation with me than with most of the other people. See, you can do it.)

[Beautiful sky]

(You're having more of a conversation with me than with most of the other people. See, you can do it.)

HAH...your perception my dear, not reality for other people.

[Minde]

I was actually just thinking how well Maritsa can communicate with someone (in this case Ryu), when she actually tries to listen to them. She isn't agreeing, but communication is still happening, which I think is great!


Of course, by saying this, I've probably jinxed it.

[Beautiful sky]

I think he did it somewhat because he didn't realize how strange you were and just reacted normally to seeing someone under distress. I would have acted that way too, but I see clearly how you caused this mess so I'm not going to just bail you out of it.

That's what you missed.

I surely don't want to be a babysitter.

I never asked this from you, did I?

If you think me 'demanding' you to deal with this situation is unreasonable or appropriate, then yes, I don't see any future for us as a couple. I'd be too inclined to tell you to grow up. I will take care of the person in my relationship, but I will not encourage them to abandon responsibility, maturity, and growth.

Did working together to figure out task seperation based on strengths and weaknesses ever occure to you?

What do you expect me to do , not think deeply, and not plan anything, and rely on you to tell me what time it is? You'd have me consult you for every moral decision, and not become better at evaluating things ethically myself?

You don't know what you need from me; it's not morality, 24/7. Figure it out, then bring the topic up again.

No thanks, I don't want to become a vegetable for all matters N and F

You don't become a vegetable doing what you're supposed to be doing.

above.

[UDP]

Ask Rasputin how he was able to figure out my enneagram type, was it when he turned away and ignored me? Have you even read what my enneagram type says? I don't want you to address me, I don't care to hear you, I am sure one day, you will realize that what you are saying was out of something about me you couldn't see, that's right in front of you. I don't use people as crutches, I dual, I know when to back off and let my dual carry the load, and I know when my work is valuable...you don't. I don't need my dual to save me, I need my dual to COVER these points as I will happily and gladly cover their weakness...that's what makes them ONE. Real skills for you are easy...NOT so with me, again, you want me to do what you can...that is unreal, unreasonable and unnecessary.

Balance in and of itself is good.
But that still doesn't mean you can't learn how to actually communicate things and discuss things better so that these other people here don't react this way to you.

I think your skill at discussion can be improved - and that's something outside of socionics.

If every person could do exactly what the next can then this system of duality would be false, unreal; I have news for you, it isn't unreal; it's very real.

I think equating someone's functional ordering with competence is kind of foolish. How come Michael Jackson is one of the best dancers ever and yet he's IEI, and his dual is the dominant person? Shouldn't that render Jackson incompetent at dancing?

I don't think you think about elements and functions in the best way, you're a bit too limiting.

[Beautiful sky]

Balance in and of itself is good.
But that still doesn't mean you can't learn how to actually communicate things and discuss things better so that these other people here don't react this way to you.

I think your skill at discussion can be improved - and that's something outside of socionics.




I think equating someone's functional ordering with competence is kind of foolish. How come Michael Jackson is one of the best dancers ever and yet he's IEI, and his dual is the dominant person? Shouldn't that render Jackson incompetent at dancing?

I don't think you think about elements and functions in the best way, you're a bit too limiting.

No my dear, you don't know what you need from me and when you do, you think it comes with someone who is like you except with an attachment...you have to stop and see the Ne the Se polr, the Te..missing piece.

In me, you want you with an attachment of Fi; that's not what I am...

[UDP]

I know what I need from you, and part of it is cookies. And/or brownies.

[Beautiful sky]

Do you comprehend what Te is and what it means to have that piece missing? Missing = not there. Not hiding, but not there.

Do you comprehend what Se-polr is? That is weak to inability to strengthen, not work on until made strong.

[UDP]

No my dear, you don't know what you need from me and when you do, you think it comes with someone who is like you

Now that's not true. I'm not a homosexual person who is attracted to LSEs, I like EII women plenty, I've hit on most of them here on the forum. I guess I've hit on Lobo, too, but you don't see him as EII.

except with an attachment...you have to stop and see the Ne the Se polr, the Te..missing piece.

In me, you want you with an attachment of Fi; that's not what I am...

Do you comprehend what Te is and what it means to have that piece missing?

Sure.

[Beautiful sky]

Now that's not true. I'm not a homosexual person who is attracted to LSEs, I like EII women plenty, I've hit on most of them here on the forum. I guess I've hit on Lobo, too, but you don't see him as EII.




Sure.

Well, then if you do comprehend that much, then you should realize that I am nothing like you and I will not be like you, but I am your dual and the fact is that I have Te missing and Se-polr; whether you want to put me IN whatever camp you want so that I can improve these I will FAIL at them; so get your head out of who ever's behind you have been in for the last X number of years and treat me like me, INFj-Maritsa, not you ideal version of me is supposed to look or however you want them to look (or to IMPROVE, EXCERSIZE, STRENGTHEN, PRACTICE - OR WHATEVER BS YOU EXPECT OF ME WHICH I CAN NOT DO).

[sarahcoles]

But I think she said it to me mostly just to manipulate me into showing her a picture of myself.

I wonder if we should move discussion of Maritsa's type to the type thread for her in the other sub-forum? That way we don't clog this thread up too much.

Yeah, she goes by her version of V.I. If you don't want to give photos of yourself, you don't need to. Though they may help to some degree.

Haha i think we have clogged up this thread heaps too. though im not sure if we should continue it on "INFj-Doubts" as there is no reasoning as seen on this thread. Oh well for now, maybe one day in the way distant future, the truth will be set free

[UDP]

Well, then if you do comprehend that much, then you should realize that I am nothing like you and I will not be like you, but I am your dual and the fact is that I have Te missing and Se-polr, whether you want to put me whatever camp you want to improve these I will FAIL at them; so get your head out of who ever's behind you have been in for the last X number of years and treat me like I, INFj-Maritsa, not you ideal version of me is supposed to look or however you want them to look (or to IMPROVE, EXCERSIZE, STRENGTHEN, PRACTICE - OR WHATEVER BS YOU EXPECT OF ME WHICH I CAN NOT DO).

So if I do the stuff you don't want to do , what are you going to do for me?

[Beautiful sky]

So if I do the stuff you don't want to do , what are you going to do for me?

This is not a bargaining table, you only have two choices
1. deny that I am your dual and continue to treat me like a boot camp improvement on how to turn INFj to ESTj
2. accept that I am INFj and learn a few things about me and treat me according to my type.

[UDP]

This is not a bargaining table, you only have two choices
1. deny that I am your dual and continue to treat me like a boot camp improvement on how to turn INFj to ESTj
2. accept that I am INFj and learn a few things about me and treat me according to my type.

How about we try to learn from each other?
And how about you make some sort of baked good?

[Beautiful sky]

How about we try to learn from each other?
And how about you make some sort of baked good?

I don't mind sharing information about me openly, so that we can learn from each other.

[UDP]

I curse and make in appropriate comments sometimes

I see you're ready to give out lessons to me - are you ready, and willing, to listen to what I have to say?