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Thread: EIE/ENFj and Constructivist Reinin Trait

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    Default EIE/ENFj and Constructivist Reinin Trait

    How does this feature manifest in the EIE who is supposedly the most dramatic type?! I know the theory, I'm looking for some concrete experiences in which maybe you've noticed something related. For this type I find this combo quite contradictory and I don't know many EIEs irl. I only know an uncle who's EIE-Fe and my supervisor who is EIE-Ni (he's far more theoretical, I can only see the Fe in some interest in Humanities and a form of diplomacy). They can both be "business-like" in their demeanor, but it's more like they can adapt their image and behavior to the context (looks like common sense, not like constructivism). None of them looks like ****** btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    How does this feature manifest in the EIE who is supposedly the most dramatic type?! I know the theory, I'm looking for some concrete experiences in which maybe you've noticed something related. For this type I find this combo quite contradictory and I don't know many EIEs irl. I only know an uncle who's EIE-Fe and my supervisor who is EIE-Ni (he's far more theoretical, I can only see the Fe in some interest in Humanities and a form of diplomacy). They can both be "business-like" in their demeanor, but it's more like they can adapt their image and behavior to the context (looks like common sense, not like constructivism). None of them looks like ****** btw.
    I am not sure if I am going to be able to help you because I don't "get" this dichotomy very well. But here goes.

    Constructivists try to get into the right mindset for an activity and it takes time for them to get from one mindset to another. When they are at home, they are mentally prepared for anything that could happen at home and when they are at work, they switch over to work-mentality. They can get overwhelmed by emotions because once they get into an emotional state, they stay in that emotional state for a long time. Constructivists avoid emotional contact with others and they don't think it's necessary to adjust to the conversation emotionally. They use automatic polite responses and customs, like starting with "how are you?" or offering their guests coffee or tea. Practical conversation (talking "business") is easier for them. They like to repeat emotional states - rereading books, watching movies that they have already seen and revisiting places they liked. They avoid movies, situations and people who give them a negative mindset, because they have a difficult time getting rid of that mindset. Constructivists use emotional anchors (carefully chosen music, books, movies) to keep or strengthen their internal emotional state.

    Emotivists try to enter the emotional atmosphere of the conversation and they try to keep the emotion in the conversation positive. They can talk about various things they have no interest in or do not believe in simply for the sake of maintaining a "positive spirit". Talking business is more difficult and the conversation topic can wander off into emotional exchange. They try to get new experiences and new emotions, which is why they travel to new places and rarely watch movies they have already seen. In emotivists calls for action/requests are not critically estimated and because of it they can get overwhelmed by them. After getting into a theme they stay in that mode of operation for a prolonged period of time and have difficulty switching, "disconnecting" (and because of it try to avoid unpleasant requests).

    Examples
    In forum conversations when a person asks a question, emotivists reply with conversational posts trying to find out what caused such a question and trying to see if they can make the person feel better. They can also include an answer to the question, but that's secondary. Constructivists give as good of an answer as they can to help find a solution. They might also include a question about why the question was asked by this particular person, but only when they are curious about it. It's not important for the thread (conversation) itself.

    Constructivists don't mind seeing a movie that they have already seen, but emotivists would only do that if there might be some new information that they missed the first time or if they have forgotten a lot about the movie. Constructivists might prefer re-watching a movie that gave them a good emotion to seeing something brand new that they don't know if they'll like. This is because constructivists have inert ethics and it's difficult to get rid of the wrong emotional state, but emotivists have contact ethics so they want to experience new emotions.
    I usually like to be in a pleasant Fe atmosphere. (I think that is probably true of most people.) I will do what I can to keep a conversation positive. If it is heading in an emotional direction, I will say things to help it stay calm. But if the discussion is about a topic that I care deeply about, I will be very persuasive. I could even get carried away and potentially say things that might disrupt the Fe tone in the name of trying to right a wrong. I do have a really hard time getting rid of unpleasant emotions. So I avoid movies, books that are going to give me a bad emotion that I won't be able to shake off. That doesn't mean that I only like romantic comedies. I like drama, adventure movies, but I don't like gratuitous violence and I especially dislike watching children being menaced. That will leave me with a bad feeling for a long time. I always read movie reviews before I go because I don't want to be disappointed. I will re-watch favorite movies and re-read favorite books because I want to re-experience an emotion.

    I avoid emotional confrontations. I don't like being around someone who is the grip of a strong negative emotion. I feel like I should do something to make them feel better and make the bad emotion go away, but of course that isn't always possible. (And I understand that ignoring or stuffing emotions is bad and you need to experience them to grieve properly.) But that makes me want to avoid situations where people are suffering. If I have to talk about something before bed that makes me feel tense or unhappy, then I won't be able to get to sleep.

    Regarding the description above, I don't really notice that I have to adjust my mentality when I switch jobs. I am not sure what that means.

    One thing that is true of me is I don't like it when other people try to use their emotion to create an emotion in me. Sometimes one of my pastors does that at church by altering his tone of voice and speaking emotionally and slowly and deliberately, and I feel like he is trying to "put" his emotion on me. I really don't like that. I have a sister-in law who is always trying to create a happy upbeat atmosphere (I like those, but not when they are forced) She goes around laughing at nothing, "Ahahahahaha" and makes little unfunny jokes and then watches for your emotional reaction, and it feels so awkward to me. I had thought she was ESE, but it looks like they are constructivists. Maybe she is an IEE.

    When I speak about things, I have a good ability to convey enthusiasm and genuine interest in whatever I am talking about. Sometimes I am trying to persuade people to do something, but it is not emotional persuasion. I read the person I am talking to and try to connect with them so they will hear my message. The message is the important thing.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
    .


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pukq_XJmM-k

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    How does this feature manifest in the EIE who is supposedly the most dramatic type?!
    In a reinforcing manner. I don't see it as contradictory at all. Constructivists will embody the information that they receive on their Fe/Fi channels. One way to spot it is to 'look behind the curtains' at what convictions and attitudes they would personally live into, at what they do rather than what they say, and the positions or roles that they try to take on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silke View Post
    to 'look behind the curtains' at what convictions and attitudes they would personally live into, at what they do rather than what they say.
    I notice this particular aspect more prominently in Emotivists. It's as if in this dichotomy Emotivism were the semantically positive / full feature, not Constructivism. And I wanted to have a better picture of Constructivism in itself in a Feeling type like EIE, not only by contrast within the binary. I've noticed LIE does try to instill enthusiasm in a group along with other goals - one LIE was just explaining to me his management philosophy and how he treats people in his team with chocolate every day (the whole technical explanation: it stimulates feel-good substances in the brain etc.). Then LII or LSI write with lots of emoticons and make a bunch of jokes even when the situation is quite serious ...I thought it to be Fe-seeking, but it also reflects Emotivism, they are going by the atmosphere which is obviously important to them.

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    Constructivists try to get into the right mindset for an activity and it takes time for them to get from one mindset to another. When they are at home, they are mentally prepared for anything that could happen at home and when they are at work, they switch over to work-mentality. They can get overwhelmed by emotions because once they get into an emotional state, they stay in that emotional state for a long time.
    This is the way I seem to operate. Oftentimes I feel like completely different people based on where I am and who I'm with. I tend to play whatever role I have assigned for myself in each situation, to the point of feeling uncomfortable when they overlap, like having my work life and relationships bleed into my personal life. Maybe that's not type-related but it's almost a feeling of getting caught red-handed being someone else. It creates confusion because it takes away the chance to switch gears, if you will. Also, I'm self-conscious that it would make me look fake. Now, I now some people will read this and assign some sort of personality disorder (LOL) or just think I'm a total fake, simply because they don't understand. It is really more subtle than that, but I have to find a way to put it into words that will prove what I mean.
    My emotional states drive me and yes, once I get into one, it's very hard to suddenly shake it off, whether good or bad. It is why I have a tendency to shield myself from other people sometimes, I know that it will be hard to get rid of a negative mood once I've absorbed it. I resent people trying to cheer me up, yet I also resent someone not giving a shit. I want/need to experience what I'm feeling and ideally others will be supportive and understanding LOL.

    I will get to the rest later. Got stuff to do now, but just a warning to take my perspective with a grain of salt since I'm not 100% sure of my type, although at this point I've realized that no type will be a perfect fit (which I hate since I like things to fit), but I do believe that EIE is the closest one I'm going to find.

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    constructivism means the person takes his/her Fe judgments extremely seriously, as if they are the only thing in the world at the point of consideration. this is what it means for a function to be Focal. constructivism means Merry is Focal in one's function Strengths.

    ENFj drama isn't raised for postulation's sake; it is directly assertive. it demands to be seen as pertinent & material, not as a mere example or a grasp from a collection of possibilities.

    you're probably thinking of the wrong kind of drama. think of something with a more singular & insistent weight placed on it.


    the only definitions of emotivism/constructivism that work (i.e. don't rely delegatively on even weaker derivative traits):

    Emotivism = Focal Serious, Diffuse Merry in Strengths
    Constructivism: Focal Merry, Diffuse Serious in Strengths

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    Constructivists avoid emotional contact with others and they don't think it's necessary to adjust to the conversation emotionally. They use automatic polite responses and customs, like starting with "how are you?" or offering their guests coffee or tea. Practical conversation (talking "business") is easier for them. They like to repeat emotional states - rereading books, watching movies that they have already seen and revisiting places they liked. They avoid movies, situations and people who give them a negative mindset, because they have a difficult time getting rid of that mindset. Constructivists use emotional anchors (carefully chosen music, books, movies) to keep or strengthen their internal emotional state.
    My mom (SEE) has always found it peculiar that I can watch a movie more than once, sometimes several times. It is not something I can do with most movies or books, only the ones that caused a strong emotion in me and I definitely do it in order to re-experience that emotion. A lot of times what ends up happening is that I make a mental note to revisit something because l want to make sure it is not the last time I feel this certain way, but more often than not I don't get around to it again. I think this is because once I'm no longer in the midst of it, or stops being real. I dunno, it's hard to explain. If for some reason I do find myself watching/reading it again, I'm always glad and think to myself I wish I would've done it before. Places come with specific feelings attached to them. It's not really a choice, every time I revisit a place, I can't help but revisit the corresponding feeling. It's why I love visiting and revisiting historic sites, especially things that fascinate me like castles.
    I don't like having a conversation for the sake of talking, but I would say that I tend to be overly polite and formal with people I don't know well or in a structured environment, maybe a little uptight. I like finding meaning in my conversations and if I don't find it, I try to steer things in that direction. If I fail to do that, I typically disengage. Chances are I will get a good idea right away whether I'm engaged in an atmosphere I will enjoy and will act accordingly. I don't see myself as warm and bubbly, I would much rather trigger a strong negative emotion than a light-hearted and superficial one. By negative I mean someone having a certain negative opinion of me because I took a particularly stand on an issue. I'm sensitive of what others think of me but I would much rather be hated for standing up for my ideals than liked for keeping the peace. I sometimes find myself saying things that I think will trigger this type of response in people, just to elicit this passion within me. There's nothing like that feeling.

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    As an EIE-Fe constructivist this is how I relate to the points I found from a couple of Constructivist Dichotomy descriptions:



    "it takes time for them to get from one mindset to another"


    I would say that once I get immersed into a gripping emotion, it stays with me for a fairly long time. I find that emotivists, by contrast can move with more seeming ease between emotional content and maybe use it as a jumping board. Wheras, If something has deep emotional resonance for me, I feel powerless with it's force to invest my mood and then I get sunk or stuck and there is no going back or undoing it. That's why I tend to be protective around certain topics that might bring forth a bad feeling or mood. I will try to divert the topic. I can use various ways, like keeping it polite and superficial, changing the topic, saying "You know, that's really going to be a downer. Let's talk about such and such instead."


    "They can get overwhelmed by emotions because once they get into an emotional state, they stay in that emotional state for a long time."

    The above describes very well for me what happens. I can get a long run 'high' out of very good emotional-vibe social interactions, which can last for at least a week or longer, sometimes. By the same token if I get into a really awful or bad emotional place from an interaction, it will also last a long time. It's like the worst "Well that felt like utter shit." feeling-based hangover.

    Also, if someone instigates a bad feeling topic and I try to get them stop to no avail, I can get very angry and aggressively fight them about it. The reason for this is that at that point the person is completely disrespecting my telling them, "You know this is going to put in my bad mood." and they go on anyway, so whatever they get as far as blasting after that, they had coming to them and it can really go South if they piss me off and don't listen to my warnings.


    This: "Constructivists avoid emotional contact with others and they don't think it's necessary to adjust to the conversation emotionally."

    and

    "Can become 'emotionally hooked', and can have a strong reaction to a particular part or section regardless of their feelings towards the entirety."

    amounts to the following scenario for me:

    I tend to have pat ways of communicating in groups in order to keep it civil. I find that trying to provoke some stimulus as some emotivists do at times can actually end up pointlessly causing disturbance and friction in the atmosphere. Not everyone likes or enjoys bringing divisive shit up while in mixed company. In many cases, it's basically asking for trouble.

    This happened this past weekend and I got really upset. I was the only constructivist in a group of four (the others were SEI, LSI and IEE). Everyone else was an emotivist and one of them brought up something they knew would give me a bad feeling (at least they should have known since it came up several times in private before and I made my feeling known that it bothered, upset me and basically put me in a really bad mood), yet they brought the topic up anyway. Of course, I made it known I was not liking the topic, but the other two people did not 'get' why mainly because I was also remaining polite and diplomatic as much as possible, while inside seething. The person who brought it up kept going with it with the others, until I finally said my not-so-good feelings on the subject at which point I was basically told by everyone that I was 'over-reacting' and for all intents and purposes felt like I was being told to shut up, my opinion was not valued at all, or over-emotional, or somehow suspect as being too judgmental, while I am actually being judged. Irrationality HELLO. My feeling judgments in this particular example (as well as others) are in fact based on objective criteria. The topic being discussed could in a completely empirical way be shown to be socially repulsive. So, then I end up getting pissed off (worked up and heated, while the others mostly see it as a game and I feel surrounded by dunces, except for the ISFp-Fe who gets equally upset at the conflict. I am aware of overdoing it at this point but I don't care because I feel undervalued and want to lash out as much as possible.


    "They avoid movies, situations and people who give them a negative mindset, because they have a difficult time getting rid of that mindset."

    With good reason. See above.


    "Constructivists use emotional anchors (carefully chosen music, books, movies) to keep or strengthen their internal emotional state."

    hmm. This is interesting. I wasn't that aware of doing this. But, I do. I can use music to keep a certain mood in the house. I can also be controlling and sensitive to what music is playing. For example, if something makes me feel a certain mood when I don't want it or feel vulnerable to it, I will have to turn it off. I also use art images and photographs as anchors.


    "Tend to minimize the emotional elements of interaction, preferring to focus on the 'business' elements."

    If someone comes to me with a personal problem or challenge which has an emotional content, I will focus on "How can I help you to acheive what you want?" sort of thing, by asking what the person wants or otherwise eliciting the person to take over their own problem. I can tend to get wary of being drawn into other's problems in an emotional way and basically don't want to have an emotional burden laid on me or take on someone else's feelings. So, I keep it at a more "doing" level than commiserating level. This is what I conclude they mean by focusing on business elements of personal interactions. In very specifc and rare special instances I can be extremely sympathetic and deal with strong vulnerable emotions of other people, but only one-on-one, as I feel this is the only appropriate place for this kind of intimacy, and only with people that have become close to which are very few.


    "Have greater difficulty disassociating from others' emotions and experiences than from requests for action or consideration."

    I'm not sure what that means. Will come back to it, if anything arises.



    “I prefer when people offer concrete solutions instead of comfort or sympathy.”

    Generally speaking, yes. In some circumstances, I also want sympathy or more aptly, I want the person to be able to relate to my feelings, communicate that sort of relating, even if it's a simple, "Yeah, that sucks." expressed in a genuine way. Proffered help is not welcome unless I've expressly asked for it, though.
    "Moral crusaders with zeal but no ethical understanding are likely to give us solutions that are worse than the problems."
    Charles Colson, How Now Shall We Live?



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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post

    Then LII or LSI write with lots of emoticons and make a bunch of jokes even when the situation is quite serious ...I thought it to be Fe-seeking, but it also reflects Emotivism, they are going by the atmosphere which is obviously important to them.


    I'm not sure if this is relevant to the Constr/Emot dichotomy, but wanted to piggyback a comment to your example. i have had experiences where an IEE and LSI (emotivists) will make jokes or keep the an atmosphere of momentum, when I'm trying to put the brakes on, which seems contradictory in some ways. I am generally more apt to not like statis. But in this case, when I vehemently dislike "where it's going", I will try to enforce a status quo. I become serious.
    "Moral crusaders with zeal but no ethical understanding are likely to give us solutions that are worse than the problems."
    Charles Colson, How Now Shall We Live?



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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    How does this feature manifest in the EIE who is supposedly the most dramatic type?!
    When I first read the costructivist/emotivist dichotomy and particularly the constructivist part, I went, "Huh??" Business-like demeanour and focus does seem contradictory to EIE dramatism. It also seems contradictory to Beta values in some sense in that Beta likes to 'hash things out', to put it reductionistically.



    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    I know the theory, I'm looking for some concrete experiences in which maybe you've noticed something related.

    Okay, I'm going to give some more examples, which I think relate to this.

    I'm in a social setting, say I'm with my husband and some friends through work. The conversation goes all over the place. One of the topics that happen to come up is Insurance Claims. Now personal background: This is a HOT TOPIC for me emotionally. I had not just a few months, not just a year, but a few years years of pure unadulterated stressfilled HELL due to an Insurance Company screwing me over. My life basically fell apart. I won't go into specifics. Not only would it take a book to do so, but it would end up doing exactly what I want to avoid and that is plumetting into an emotional hell place of no return for a long time.

    So, what happens when someone might unwittingly bring this topic up? Well it depends. I'm pretty adaptable and I will do anything to avoid ruining the get-together for others, acting inappropriately and thereby losing respect and the good connections. I might just ignore and tune out or go do something like bring an appetizer, clean up or go the washroom. If it's not every single person talking about it, I might turn to someone else and change the topic. I might try to change the topic through diversion, by being subtle about it. i don't want to draw attention to my utter dislike. I just want it to go away. If all else fails, I might leave the immediate vicinity (sofa, table, room, whatever it may be) and go somewhere else, basically escape the possible emotional infestation.

    If none of the above are possible and the hot topic continues, I will become upset. Generally, I rarely let it get to this point, as it plummets me into a really bad place. But occasionally, I can't do anything about it. When that happens, I will become dramatic and use my ability to hook into other's emotions, effect emotion, and my way with words and articulate skills, to manouveur and fight back often to teach people a lesson. It's like those morality plays but with over-the-top emotions. Actually, someone whom I dislike but who i can admit is probably not the greatest example of health, but a good example of this is Dr. Phil. EIE is called "The Teacher" and "The Mentor". In my opinion these titles given to the types can take the form of high functioning and actualized and they can also take the form of "Not Going to Win any Person of the Year Awards".



    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    For this type I find this combo quite contradictory and I don't know many EIEs irl. I only know an uncle who's EIE-Fe and my supervisor who is EIE-Ni (he's far more theoretical, I can only see the Fe in some interest in Humanities and a form of diplomacy).

    Are you asking about occupational suitability? I'd say for EIE-Fe, political cause work, social services in many respects, religous leaders. All of these types of vocations are more like callings and suit all of the various aspects of EIE. You can be diplmomatic and fiery at the same time. It takes humongous interpersonal intelligence and skill though to make it work effectively.


    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    They can both be "business-like" in their demeanor, but it's more like they can adapt their image and behavior to the context (looks like common sense, not like constructivism). None of them looks like ****** btw.

    I'm not sure I'd call it common sense, although that is it partially and begins to get at it. It's more a kind of 'getting along and getting to people' astuteness - something along the lines of what is often stereotypically attributed to a sociable, outgoing and extroverted nature. But often includes an intense need for validation from others and a sensitivity not only to when it is forthcoming but also to how to give it, or not.
    "Moral crusaders with zeal but no ethical understanding are likely to give us solutions that are worse than the problems."
    Charles Colson, How Now Shall We Live?



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